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07:04
Wann suchend die Wohnungen - when searching for apartments? I'm assuming you need to use the present participle for this
 
1 hour later…
08:14
@Astrum what a wide field - we do not have the -ing form in German so we make this by different means, e.g. "Während der Suche nach einer Wohnung...", "Auf der Suche nach...", "beim Suchen", "Als er eine Wohnung suchte,...", "Zur Wohnungssuche..."- plenty of context-dependent possibilites!
@Takkat we do have this -ing form (it's just the present participle as @Astrum pointed out). We just don't usually use it for introductory subclauses like that (it's grammatically possible, but sounds very awkward.)
what we don't have is the gerund (which coincides with the -ing form in english)
Hallo @Takkat
Alles in ordnung?
@Gigili nein, nichts ist in Ordnung! Ich muss arbeiten, habe keinen Urlaub, es ist dunkel und kalt, und ich werde immer älter... ;)
@Takkat Und Nevik korrigiert ihn ständig!
Der @NevikRehnel ist auch viel jünger und hat noch alle Schulgrammatik im Kopf!
08:24
so einer aber auch!
@Takkat Sollen wir denn sein Kopf stehlen?
@Gigili Sein Kopf ist bestimmt festgewachsen und wir müssten den ganzen Rest auch noch nehmen.
Wie geht's denn dir, @Gigili - wolltest du nicht in diesem Jahr wieder nach Hannover?
@Takkat Umm, muss das denn sein?
08:29
Ein kopfloser Nevik ist für GELA völlig nutzlos.
@Takkat Ich wünschte ich könnte
Kannst du denn nicht? Das ist aber schade!
Freilich!
Fröhlich?
Freilich mostly has at least some positive connotation.
@Takkat Eine verheiratete Frau hat seine eigenen Probleme!
@Takkat Oh? Then it's wrong in that context.
08:35
ihre* eigenen* Probleme
nein, nein, sie hat ihre Probleme, seine Probleme hat er mit ihr, vielleicht.
lol, you're making it more complicated than it is @Takkat
that's the purpose of chat.
2
LOL
@Gigili You probably meant to say something like "Indeed" ?
@NevikRehnel Indeed!
08:37
@Gigili das wäre auf deutsch "In der Tat."
sounds very literal, but is correct and used in the very same sense
nun gut, die Uni ruft. Gehabt euch wohl! :D
@NevikRehnel Um, isn't there an informal version?
"Klar" oder "Natürlich" oder ...
> Kannst du denn nicht?
> Natürlich
08:52
Kannst du denn nicht? -> Natürlich nicht. - Leider nein - Keinesfalls - (very informal).
I'll pick the second one, thank you!
Falls wir einmal besonders klug klingen möchten: Phrasendrescher
don't worry if you don't get the meanings - there aren't any.
They're meaningless?
09:12
entirely - only they sound good.
everybody will let you go with them to not have to admit they have never heard of these topics.
Interesting.
Some of them are quite long.
When you make something up, you rarely can come up with a very long sentence like that.
Phrasendrescher bilden immer lange Phrasen damit man nicht merkt, wie hohl sie sind.
Moin @OregonGhost
I'm sorry about my bold remarks the other day.
Hope you didn't mind.
09:27
Moin @Gigili :)
@Gigili Since I still don't really know what you were talking about, I'm fine ;)
Moin auch @Takkat :)
o/ @OregonGhost
phew
Bei so wenigen kann man wenigstens alle einzeln begrüßen ^^
Glad to hear that
 
6 hours later…
15:23
@Takkat (cc: @Gigili ) Whether a (short) answer to a negated question needs to include the negation again (or whether a positive answer agrees with the negation or contradicts it) is a great thing to confuse speakers of other languages. It's somewhat similar in German and English, though the above example shows it isn't always the same. Japanese can blow your mind with these things.
das bringt nicht nur Fremdsprachler durcheinander ;)
in der tat :D
Es ist auch nicht auf deutsch begrenzt. Da gibt's zwischen den meisten Sprachen größere oder kleinere Diskrepanzen.
"Möchten Sie Kaffee oder Tee?" - "Ja, gerne" ;)
"Beides!?" - "Nein."
"Ja, was nun - Kaffee oder Tee?" - "Ja."
"Möchten Sie Kaffee xoder Tee?" - "Nein." :D
"Also Kaffee?" - "Nein".
15:33
:D
"Nehmen Sie Zucker oder Milch?" - "Ja, gerne"
Der wird nie wieder eingeladen.
"Hat es Ihnen bei uns nicht gefallen?" - "Ja."
2
Host muss nur lernen die richtigen Fragen zu stellen :D
"Also was jetzt - es hat Ihnen bei uns nicht gefallen???" - "Nein"
so. Ab nach Hause für heute... BBL
„nein“ verstehen die Deutschen, aber „ja“ als Antwort ist ja verwirrend
@Takkat bd :D
 
1 hour later…
16:56
Guten Tag !
gude Tag
Moin ;)
Ich isst Reis und trikt wasser
is it right ?
Nope... "Ich esse Reis und trinke Wasser."
Aber "Er isst Reis und trinkt Wasser." :)
Danke. I am learning through Rosetta
Ja, i understand
17:10
oops, du bist Anfänger... bitte beachte meine Rechtschreibung nicht ^^
 
4 hours later…
20:43
I woke up early today
@NevikRehnel so if that sounds super awkward, what's a betetr way to say it? My friend had corrected it to something like "Wenn man eine Wohnung finden möchte,..."
that sounds weird to me
AFK for a while
21:21
@Astrum As @Takkat mentioned, a nice translation depends on the context. i.e. is the "when" meant as more of a temporal reference, or does it just imply the occasion
to elaborate, do you mean for example:
"During the actual search for an apartment" (e.g. while perusing a paper or website)
"While in the state of looking for a new apartment" (e.g. you want to move to a different area or must leave your current residence for some reason)
"If you happen to be looking..." (e.g. providing advice to someone who might be looking for an apt. but you don't know for sure)
21:59
@NevikRehnel the whole sentence was "when looking for an apartment, which website is best?"
@Astrum then your friend's suggestion is correct. "Welche Website ist die beste, wenn man eine Wohnung sucht/finden möchte?"
that construction is a little colloquial
Well, I hope he was right, I'm just asking for an alternative
I have another question
that he wasn't really able to explain to me
this is actually a good example of where nominalization applies well (one common habit of german speakers)
why does "und" not cause the sentence structure to change?
"Welche Website ist für Wohnungssuche die beste?"
22:02
nominialization?
nominalization = turn a subclause into a noun construction
in this case, that version would be more like "which website is best for apartment search?"
I see
so, take a sentence like "ich weiß nicht und ich habe nichts getan" - why doesn't "und" make a subcluase or something?
@Astrum because it's a conjunction of two main clauses, the same as in english
yesterday, by Nevik Rehnel
both parts of a binary conjunction have equal rights, so neither is devalued with a comma :P
I see these really big sentences that use "und" to string together 2/3 sentences together
yes
the same is technically possible in english, though used less often
22:06
I still can't really understand it...
so to be clear, everything after the "und" has the same grammar rules as a fresh sentence?
@Astrum all clauses of a conjunction are on the same syntactic level. in the given example, they're all main clauses, so they use main-clause word order
@Astrum if use on a main clause level, yes. technically it can be nested in subclauses, but that gets unreadable fast
maybe part of my problem is trying to use subclauses too much
(for unreadable sentences, confer for example Kant, Immanuel: Kritik der reinen Vernunft )
ugh
Kant
I tried to read that
belches
i did a seminar paper on the introduction to Pure Reason once
22:09
I couldn't force myself past page 20
I like Nietzsche advice on reading Kant
> Zweite hin und wieder verbesserte Auflage
that subtitle
Project Gutenberg (DE) edition of Pure Reason Second Edition: gutenberg.spiegel.de/buch/3502/1
I don't fully understand that sentence
something about a better second edition
zweite hin = ?
"hin und wieder" is the phrase "now and then" (lit.), though here the translation would be "here and there"
"Second, here and there improved edition"
I see
does "aber" work like "und"? or does that create a subclause?
Germans don't seem to use "aber" nearly as much as we do in English
it's funny because the second edition was revised so much that it was about twice as large, i think
22:13
hahahaha twice the boredom
@Astrum yes, we do (i think)
actually, aber is more noticable in german sentences as it is demarked by a comma (since it introduces a subclause)
whereas but can stand without a precending comma in english
I usually see people use jedoch or something in replace of aber
ah, well that's just another word
but they're very similar
it also depends on the language register a lot. colloquially we use aber like you use but in english (i.e. all the time)
and to answer your question, from what examples i can think of, yes, aber works like und in that it doesn't change the word order of the subclause
22:15
maybe I don't read enough colloquial speech
you probably won't find that much written-down colloquial speech
you guys should jabber in German more often
(that's why it's called colloquial, lol)
@Astrum we do, but i don't use colloquial in this chatroom a lot. mainly to give usable examples for foreign speakers
wait, but you said it needs to be preceeded by a comma
I'm confusssssed
sie ist müde, aber sie wird nicht schlafen - or - sie ist müde, aber sie nicht schlafen wird
@Astrum aber is in the group of the... uh
can't find the proper english term
they connect two main clauses (i.e. main clause word order is maintained)
22:20
and that means my first sentence is correct?
yes
it gets more confusing though. but that's optional and i can skip it for now if you want :D
are there any other common words that preserve the main clause order?
yeah, best to skip it
that link shows the most common ones
und, oder, aber, denn, sondern
denn - I thought this one creates a strangely ordered one, I'll have to mark these down
expressing: logical conjunction, logical disjunction, contradiction, causal consequence, and an alternative or contradiction, respectively
22:23
finden can be used as in English, with "I find this to be ------" ?
at least that's what wiktionary told me
@Astrum you can scroll down on that page for the other group of subjugating conjunctions (unterordnende Konjunktionen), which change the word order
@Astrum yes, only we don't need the "to be" in german at all. "I find that funny.": Das finde ich lustig.
I will admit, I thought German would be easier than this =/
haha
I'm sure there's an easier route that would take you through the more regular things first
it's hard without any classes or books
sadly, I don't know it, since I do this all by feeling, as native speakers usually do
22:27
if I had a German speaking girlfriend, I'd learn so much faster.
number one way to learn a language - SO native speaker
motivation + constant help + constant use = really fast learning
true dat
and you get to learn dirty words, what can be more fun?
well actually, move to foreign country that speaks that language and try to find a job, will probably teach you even faster
if you could get hired without fluency
it kinda bothers me here in the US, when someone gets a job and can't even speak English
you end up trying to communicate for 10 minutes and usually they still don't know what you want
"WHY U NO SPEAK ENGLISH?"
well here it depends on what job you want to do
there's "entry level"/unqualified jobs. if you dont have customer interaction, you can probably even get in with minimal german skills
22:32
oh
plus, most germans speak rudimentary english
are there jobs for students at universities? like, grading papers, helping out professors (research, perhaps?)
in the US sometimes we can find a job for minimum wage. How generous, after we spent $30,000 on one year of enrollment
getting one without german skills will put you on the english-speaking track though, which wont improve your german, haha
22:33
what's your minimum wage?
that's like my internship in australia, where half the floor spoke german at work, so my english skills improved zilch
@Astrum i have no idea
yeah, that defeats the purpose
I'd like to go to Universität Bonn, but I think it might be too expensive
I have no idea how expensive living is around there
not as expensive as where I live now, but in general, pretty expensive
22:37
from a lot of research I've done, your rent and food tend to be cheaper, but your stores seem to charge a lot more for items
well we do have 19% VAT
something that might cost $100 here costs $130 for oyu
19% on everything?!
no. food is 7% i think
and services might also be different
i dont know the exact categories
but our awesome social security must be financed somehow
oh well, better than blowing up civilians with tax money
22:39
I really love the thought of where my taxes go
funding spying programs and what essentially amounts to terror campaigns
sigh
no more politics
yeah, please stop :P
well, plus corporate subsidies, and buying a bunch of useless military equipment that even the military doesn't want
ok
probably for the best
I'm stopping
Für mich ist es sehr wichtig, eine Garage zu haben. - what is the effect of a plain comma?
hmmmm what do you mean?
well, we see the verg jumped to the end of the sentence, with no subject (in this case "ich")
I would have worded this "für mich ist es sehr wichtig eine Garage zu haben", no comma
ah, no. the part after the comma is a zu + infinitive phrase. the comma before it is optional
we usually put the comma improve legibility, especially when the infinitive phrase is longer than about three words
22:44
and why do we need the "zu"? It would sound funny without it, but the only way I put a "zu" with a verb is if I "feel" it
1
Q: The preposition "zu" with infinitives

DerPolyglott33 Eine Woche im Ferienhaus zu gewinnen. The sentence translates "Win a week in a Cottage", but my question is why there is a zu? Can the sentence stand alone without it? Here's another sentence: Zu wissen, wie Gerichte entschieden haben, kann sich auch für Sie auszahlen. Can one just sa...

though the only answer there seems to have no rule or reasoning, only examples
that doesn't help much
@Astrum I can't think of a rule either :/
I guess I'll just stick with how it sounds
there's this other question about the optional comma, if you want to read a little more about that
lemme check if i can find anything on the zu
22:53
alright
@Astrum well there is mein-deutschbuch.de/lernen.php?menu_id=49 but it's in german so it will probably only of limited use to you at the moment
it has a collection of examples and rules-of-thumb/typical situations that cover most of what you'll run into
I couldn't find any english description of this particular point right now :/
Hallo an alle
hi @DerPolyglott33 :D
well, I'll go hit the sheets now. im up way later than usual anyway
bye @Astrum, im sure the others can help you until i get up :P
Hallo Takkat
hallo zusammen
22:59
Hallo clinch
so viele Leute gibt's heute hier. Ich freue mich dessen
Was bedeutet 'dessen' in diesem Satz? Ist das "Das"?
Ich kenne aber nur 'des'
ah
back
@NevikRehnel alright, good night
Hallo Astrum
thanks for teh help
greetings
23:07
@Astrum Woher kommst du? Kommst du aus den USA?
Yup
East coast, I see that you're a west coaster
@Astrum Du lernst Deutsch?
yes
it's a barrel of monkeys
@Astrum Ich lerne auch Deutsch zum Spaß.
I'm not really learning it for fun
learning languages is not fun, speaking them is
23:11
Axo. Ich komme aus dem goldenen Staate.
in the US
pretty close to NY city
well, within an hour and a half drive or so
Ich lerne eig. Spanisch u. Deutsch.
I imagine spanish is a big thing in California
Dieser Chat ist allerdings gut zum Deutschlernen.
Ja
Ist es.
it's strange that all the way up here, we still have the occasional Spanish speaker
23:14
@DerPolyglott33 es ist eigentlich ein bisschen komisch, das zu sagen, oder zumindest unüblich in manchen Gebieten. Ich freue mich dessen == Ich freue mich darüber
es ist einfach nur eine andere Form
@clinch Cool!
@Astrum Das Spanisch, das in Kalifornien gesprochen wird, ist total anders als das von Spanien.
I figured, it sounds ugly, if you ask me.
keiner interessiert sich sowieso für das Spanisch aus Spanien :P
they butcher the language
@Astrum who does? what do you mean by butcher?
23:18
Der Freund meiner Schwester kommt aus der Schweiz u. ist auch Philippino. Er kann auch Deutsch, aber es fällt mir noch schwer, ihn wegen seinem Akzent zu verstehen.
butcher = mess up, screw up, deface
I'm talking about Mexican Spanish
or at least the way the spanish speakers aroudn here speak it
@Astrum i know what it means in every day speech. I'm asking what you mean in this case. I think our understanding of "butchering" a language is quite different
@Astrum Was ich glaub' ist, dass in jedem Lande eine Sprache anders gesprochen wird.
@clinch yeah, in this case it just means that they speak with a bad accent, use poor grammar
Was sich die beiden unterscheiden, ist die Redewendungen, die die benutzen.
23:21
@Astrum again, i don't know what you mean by "bad" accent. I'm not trying to be pedantic, but i'm trying to figure out exactly what you mean. What makes an accent "bad"?
Der Freund meiner Schwester benutzt Redewendungen, die ich gar nicht höre.
@clinch I'm just saying that I think it's bad. I just don't like the way mexican spanish sounds, when compared to spain spanish. It's not "bad" in a universal way
@DerPolyglott33 joa, weil d us d' schwiiz is
I don't speak Spanish, so I don't know how much of it is incorrect, or even what proper mexican spanish sounds like. I can only tell you what I hear from spanish speakers here
@Astrum Das Spanisch von Spanien ist ähnlich wie britisches Englisch im Englischen.
Wie kommt es, dass es nicht viele Leute im spanischen Chat gibt?
23:26
@DerPolyglott33 ich kann übrigens Spanisch
@clinch Bist du Deutscher?
@Astrum okay, i understand now. It's always interesting to hear why someone thinks a certain dialect sounds horribly. I personally find Spain's Spanish to be awful, but that's just me and i'm certainly biased
@clinch Ich habe viele Grammatikfragen über die spanishe Sprache.
@DerPolyglott33 bin ich nicht. Die Fragen darfst du hier stellen, soweit ich weiß :P
@clinch yeah, I suppose. I think you could argue there is no "right" way to speak a language, if you really wanted to go down that road
23:28
Denkt nicht bitte übel von mir, ich liebe alle Sprachen.
@Astrum which is the right road ;)
Deshalb nenne ich mich DerPolyglott :))
@clinch I still think Schweizer Deutsch is wrong on many levels
Astrum: Es liegt an der Person, wie genau er sie lernen will.
@Astrum then you still have much to learn, little grasshopper. Schwyyzerdüütsch is awesome
23:31
O.o
it's funny that I dislike it so much, since I would love to move there
@clinch Wie lange lernst du schon Deutsch?
@DerPolyglott33 seit schon zwei Jahren. Die Frage steht aber immer noch im Raum. Was für Fragen zu der spanischen Grammatik hast du?
Ich habe viele lol
Ich denke immer noch
/me versteckt sich
23:36
hm, „/me“ geht hier ja gar nicht.
@clinch Bist du in Deutschland od.?
nicht mehr, nein
@clinch Warst du dort für die Arbeit?
@DerPolyglott33 nein, ich war dort, um Deutsch zu lernen
@clinch Das ist cool!
@clinch Du lernst auch Spanisch?
23:45
@DerPolyglott33 man könnte es so ausdrücken, ja
Kann man sagen ' Es liegt an der Person, wie es genau sie mit der Sprache nehmen will '?
hm, was willst du denn sagen?
Depends on the person how serious he is in learning a language
Ich möchte das Tätigkeitswort ' es genau mit etwas nehmen' als Nebensatz benutzen.
Es liegt an der Person, wie....
ich wüsste nicht, ob es damit geht...
Kommt auf die Person an, wie genau sie es mit dem Sprachenlernen nimmt
Danke!
Ich mag die deutsche Sprache, obwohl sie schwierig zu lernen ist hihi

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