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1:22 AM
And once again I have a meeting during tomorrow's chat. I will be glad when the current wave of beginning-of-year administrivia is wrapped up...
I think I may have Chavrusa at that time also
16 hours later…
5:22 PM
Both last week and this, I meant, and forgot, to bring my Tol'dos Yitzchak.
@msh210 ditto ... R' Hirsch
Begin Parashat Hashavua' Chat #7 - Va-eira 5772
Hello, @msh210, @ShmuelBrill, @jake
Okay, I'll start off with a question: Moshe is described as k'vad pe, k'vad lashon, and aral s'fasayim. Are those distinct? What does each one mean? Does anyone discuss this?
@IsaacMoses Likewise. :-)
@IsaacMoses Hi.
@msh210 Rashi says k'vad pe is a stutter.
5:31 PM
Welcome, @Alex.
@msh210 I think I recall someone saying that k'vad lashon means that he doesn't know the language fluently.
@Alex Interesting: He grew up in the palace.
@Alex What language would Moshe not know fluently?
@msh210 Sure, but he had been away from it for decades.
@jake Egyptian.
@Alex True.
5:33 PM
@Alex I would say more likely Hebrew.
@jake he's discussing Par'o's understanding him. he.wikisource.org/wiki/T0204
@msh210 Is he?
@Alex He was a king in Kush. Wouldn't he keep up with the language of the superpower?
@msh210 Actually, no, when he says "kvad peh ukvad lashon anochi" it's following on Hashem telling him to show the signs to the people.
@Alex Right! Sorry.
@jake Never mind: sorry.
5:34 PM
When he says "hein ani aral sefasayim" he's talking about speaking to Pharaoh.
@Alex Yes. Only "aral s'fasaim" is for talking to paro.
@ShmuelBrill Why should he? If he needs to deal with Egypt, he's got secretaries.
@msh210 So maybe it was Hebrew he was not fluent in.
@jake Okay, if k'vad lashon means influency, then maybe it refers to Hebrew.
@jake That would make sense, then. So k'vad peh would mean he stutters, k'vad lashon would mean he can't speak Hebrew fluently to the people, and aral sefasayim would mean that he doesn't know how to speak high-quality Egyptian to Pharaoh. Maybe.
5:37 PM
@msh210 I wonder if God spoke to him in Hebrew originally, or another language.
@jake Our greatest Teacher ever came to Lashon Hakodesh later in life. Great image for ba'alei teshuva (a category in which I include all those who grow up in the Diaspora, speaking Diaspora languages, and then learn Hebrew).
@Alex Any source for that translation of aral s'fasayim? I have no idea what it means, frankly.
@jake Influency (sufficient to speak to the people as a leader) doesn't mean he doesn't understand it.
@msh210 None that I know of, just noodling around.
@jake Does prophecy come in a language?
@IsaacMoses For Moshe, I assume so. It was "peh el peh adaber bo".
5:38 PM
@IsaacMoses Moshe's did (as opposed to the other nevi'im, who may have just seen an image).
@msh210 I remember learning that it meant a harelip, or something - extra tissue (analogous to an orla) messing up his lips.
@msh210 Yes, but I assume that Moshe would speak back in the same language.
@jake to Hashem? Maybe, maybe not, but even if so, he could claim he's insufficiently fluent to speak to the peopel as a leader.
@IsaacMoses Probably fits the language of "aral s'fasaim" better.
@msh210 True.
@jake ... and would also be a detriment in trying to address Par'o
5:42 PM
@IsaacMoses In fact, it might even make Pharaoh not want to admit him into the palace at all (lehavdil, the way a kohen with a blemish isn't allowed to enter the heichal)
I remember D'rashos HaRan saying that part of the reason Gd wanted Moshe to be the leader with influency and not a dynamic speaker (maybe even an impediment) was that people would follow him because of the truth of his message instead of just his being a dynamic leader.
@IsaacMoses I don't remember the source. I think it was my rebbe in grade school, I think tied to the midrash about his grabbing a hot coal and putting it into his mouth as a baby.
Greetings, @AvrohomYitzchok
@IsaacMoses How would that cause an overgrowth, though? (And it definitely wouldn't be a harelip - that's congenital.)
@Alex Scar tissue.
@IsaacMoses Oh yeah... I'm remembering the same thing now.
5:46 PM
@jake You know, though, one difficulty with that is that the Gemara (Sotah 12b) explicitly rejects the possibility that Moshe could have had a physical defect (א"כ עשיתו למשה רבינו בעל מום). So it sounds like if it was physiological, it would have to be internal.
@Alex Any physical defect, or specifically one that's a tehcnical mum?
Fine, I'd like to accumulate explanations of these terms: maybe I'll ask on-site.
@IsaacMoses Good question, I don't know. The context there is a suggestion that as a baby he already had the voice of an older child (הוא ילד וקולו כנער), which AFAIR isn't a technical mum. But a harelip would certainly be, and I don't know about scarred lips.
@msh210 I imagine Malbim would address those terms.
@jake Sounds about right.
5:49 PM
@jake I have a Malbim chumash here. At a quick glance, he doesn't seem to address it.
@Alex Hmmm...
@Alex, By the way (off topic), about the Moshe timeline found in Yalkut Shimoni I mentioned last week, I found that although many Rishonim take the stories thare as at least partially fact, ibn Ezra (no surprise here) is not a big fan. He writes that the entire thing is just "hevel".
@jake So I wonder what he thinks happened with Moshe during those decades. Fifty or sixty years of just pasturing sheep?
@Alex Good prep.
@Alex I suppose no one will know for sure as the Torah never said anything.
Q: Objection to chat heading

Seth JThis is not a question, but I object to the spelling of the transliterated word "Hashavu'a" as in, "Visit our Parashat Hashavu'a Chat, going on right now." The correct pronunciation, if one is emphasizing the 'Ayin, is Hashavua'. As in רוח, the פתח is pronounced before the final radical (letter ...

5:54 PM
This reminds me of another topic: According to those who say the "Isha Kushis" in Parshas B'haalosecha is not Tzipora, but rather a woman Moshe married in Kush, was she around in Egypt for this whole story?
@StackExchange /me hangs head in shame
@jake Do those opinions say that she was with Moshe at the time that Miriam and Aharon spoke about it, or that they were referring back to something that had happened decades earlier?
@Alex Not sure. It seemed like she was there at that point. Why wait until then to talk about it otherwise?
@IsaacMoses I wouldn't take it that hard. Arguably, even though he's right that the ayin comes at the end, there needs to be something to represent the epenthic alef between the vowels.
@Alex I don't get it. What's wrong with the "Shavu'a". The "'a" is the patach g'nuva and the ayin is silent.
5:58 PM
@jake Dunno, they might have been saying something like, "There was that Kushis lady that he married way back when. Pity he's not still married to her, instead of Tzipporah..." (or: "if he was going to separate from his wife because of his prophecy, too bad it wasn't her rather than Tzipporah that had to suffer that fate...")
@Alex His point was (in part) that the "right" way to pronounce it is without an alef. See the answer he linked to.
@Alex Possibly, I'll have to check the sources when I have a chance.
@jake If the ayin is silent (per Ashkenazic pronunciation), then the alef is too. And then it would be just "hashavua" with no apostrophes.
@Alex Also, it doesn't seem like she came with the rest of the family out of midyan. "Vayarkivem all Hachamor..."
@Alex No, the alef could be a glottal stop, and the ayin, even if it a glottal stop also, might not be represented in translit. at the end of word
6:02 PM
@jake Good point. Which probably means that (according to these opinions) indeed he left her behind in Kush.
@msh210 True, but I think Seth's point is that if you're going to take care to represent them, you should do it at the end of the word too (especially for words of this class where the positions of the consonant and patach genuvah are so often mistakenly interchanged).
@Alex Fair enough.
New question, if no one minds: Where did the magicians get water to replicate the plague of blood? If the only source for water was to buy it from Goshen, did they actually spend good money just to try to discredit Moshe and Aharon?
@Alex People go to all kinds of lengths to win an argument.
@IsaacMoses OK, but why do they have a dog in the fight? Pharaoh, sure. But why would they care whether Moshe's G-d can do something they can't?
... xkcd.com/386 (link will work tomorrow :)
@Alex Professional credibility. Courtiers who fell down on the job didn't always get back up again.
6:09 PM
seeing if this works:
@msh210 Yep, it does
@Alex If they could magically turn water to blood, what's stopping them from magically conjuring the water to start with?
@jake Can magic create yesh me'ayin?
Also, if they could do that, why wouldn't they produce water in industrial quantities, enough so that the makkah doesn't bother anyone?
@Alex Yesh mi-something else?
@Alex Don't know anything about magic. But if you hold it was all slight and not real, sure.
6:11 PM
@Alex No, I was hoping it'd make the image appear.
@jake That would work according to Rambam, sure, but not according to everyone else.
@Alex The "not real" would answer your other question too.
@Alex True, just saying.
@Alex Although maybe they had the power to turn blood to water first. Wouldn't answer your second question, but it gets rid of the "yesh me'ayin" problem.
@msh210 OK, here:
@IsaacMoses So true.
@IsaacMoses Thanks.
6:16 PM
@jake Could be, I guess. Though then you'd also have to assume that Hashem would temporarily suspend the makkah (so that this water doesn't turn to blood) to give them their chance to show their stuff.
Reminds me of another topic: How does Rashi know anything about magic? ("Magicians couldn't make lice because they were too small or not touching the ground.") Was he quoting something, and if so, how did they know?
@jake My first assumption for anything in Rashi is that it came from a Midrash
@Alex Was it like a continuous turning of water to blood so that if someone managed to change it to water, it would immediately revert to blood?
@IsaacMoses In that case, how did chazal know anything about magic?
@jake I'd think it was, otherwise why would they bother paying the Jews for any? (Rashi says, after all, that "Egypt was full of magic.")
@jake There were lots of practitioners of it in their times - especially in Egypt. Sanhedrin 67b records some stories in that connection.
@jake Learned it from their teachers, and they from theirs, etc.? Not implausible.
6:18 PM
@jake How did they know anything about any events that happened in Biblical times but wasn't recorded in the Bible?
(Yeah, what Isaac just said.)
@IsaacMoses (1) mesorah. (2) Hints in the text. Or both. Guess that would work here, if it is from chazal.
@jake In theory m'sora works here even if it's not written in Chazal, but that's... less likely.
@jake The part about not touching the ground is definitely from Chazal - look at the story of Shimon ben Shetach and the witches. The part about "smaller than a barleycorn" is in Sanhedrin there.
@Alex True. Also, if water would be brought into Egypt from outside, I would think it would immediately become blood.
@Alex I was just thinking the same thing about Shimon ben Shetach.
@Alex It does seem a little strange that they knew what was going on in the magical community. Or maybe it was common knowledge (lift a witch off the ground and they can't hurt you).
6:24 PM
@jake That, plus anyway the members of the Sanhedrin were expected to know about the details of magical practices so they could judge such cases (the Gemara there mentions R. Eliezer knowing a lot about magically harvesting cucumbers - there was a question about that on the site recently).
@Alex Hmmm... Just thinking how Rambam would explain all this stuff.
@jake A lot of ink has been spilled on that, the more so because Rambam does accept the Gemara's distinction of "real" acts vs. illusions. I'd have to look up sources.
@Alex Interesting. I don't know that much about this topic. Post some mareh m'komos later maybe if you can?
@jake Will do, bez"h. It'll make a good question for the site.
On a different note: does anyone say that the first three makkos did affect the Jews too? We find only with arov and the later makkos that Hashem says He'll make a distinction there.
@Alex I seem to recall that the "ten nissim" that Hashem did for the Jews in Egypt (Pirkei Avos 5) is that they were spared from all ten makkos.
6:32 PM
@jake Seems like an odd definition of a nes, though, considering that the makkos themselves were miraculous. That almost makes it sound like they were natural events, and that Hashem had to use miracles to protect the Jews from them!
Anyway, that still leaves the question of why only beginning with arov does Hashem say that He'll spare the Jews.
@Alex I would say more like the makkos themselves were the miracles, but how could we call it a "miracle for the Jews" if they were included? Must be part of the miracle is that it didn't affect them.
@jake OK, I can buy that.
@Alex That's a good question. Maybe ask it on the site.
@Alex I seem to recall some comment on "I will separate" (I can't remember the word now but it's from the root pe-lamed-alef) saying something about how such division itself is a miracle.
End Parashat Hashavua' Chat #7 - Va-eira 5772 But feel free to keep going if you want.
6:35 PM
@msh210 והפליתי. I'm actually not so sure that's from the root פלא, though; it seems to be from פלה (though of course those might be related roots).
@IsaacMoses I thought we were switching to "Hashavua" without the '.
@Alex It does, I agree. (seem to be from פלה) I was misremembering the word. Nonetheless, I seem to recall such a comment.
@msh210 Sounds like something R. Hirsch might say - he relates lots of roots to each other.
@Alex Yes. Well, our resident RSRHian doesn't have his books at hand ahem ;-)
I should really start bringing my "Torat Chaim" chumash. It's becoming more and more often that I'm wishing I had it with me.
6:39 PM
I've got to go now, but thanks, everyone, for the stimulating chat!
@Alex Thank you too. Take care.
@Alex You, too. And the rest of youse.
@jake Right. Old habits die hard. Fixed.
Yeyasher kochachem, everyone
@IsaacMoses Yes, thanks to everyone.
7:04 PM
Q: Moderator Cheat Sheet

Mark TrappAs an alternative to the other FAQ format being fleshed out here on MSO, I'd like to propose something far more terse that covers the bare essential mechanics of being a moderator. Feel free to add more questions, but keep them short: this isn't the place to get into complex moderation issues, ...

Q: Stack Exchange Moderator FAQ

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@IsaacMoses, what about them? Or just, of general interest?
@msh210 Just learned that they existed and thought that they'd be of interest to people here.
3 hours later…
10:29 PM
Q: The custom of adding a candle for each child

morah hochmanMany people, including myself, added or will add a candle on Friday night for each child that is born. Where and when did this custom originate?

^^ close as duplicate? (see comment)
11:01 PM
@msh210 I think not. It is about a specific aspect that's not mentioned in the other question.
Q: Is there any Jewish-Muslim dialogue that has come to an agreement on anti-Jewish Hadith?

Warren PThis link came to my inbox today. It is a pro-Israel, and pro-Jewish website, to be sure, but my question is; Is it being fair to Islam, at least as far as we know? Are there elements in Judaism that are engaged in a dialogue with Islam that would lead you to believe that anything in the linked...

^^^ I'm inclined to close. Any opposed?

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