2016 Physics Stack Exchange Election

DanielSank

03:39

I'm considering writing something explaining why I'm not running for moderator.

I think at least a few of the candidates have voiced motivations which reflect a misunderstanding about what the moderators do.

I kind of want to explain why I think I can contribute to policy and reviews in a very effective way without having mod powers.

In fact, at least one mod power, the unilateral close vote, is something I'd rather avoid.

Another problem (for me) is that I'd like to be able to debate policy issues with the full force of my convictions without worrying that readers will interpret what I say as already established policy.

This would be a major concern for me personally if I were to get the diamond.

peterh

1) You are a big name 2) your policies would be maybe to harsh to my flavour, but I think they would be at least clear

tpg2114

@DanielSank I (personally) think your reservations are a user perception problem... I think the majority of users expect moderators to lead policy discussions and to take the charge in reviews. I also think the majority of the users give more credit than should be given to moderators when it comes to policy discussions. But, perception is reality and so it's a fine line to walk

DanielSank

@peterh Moderators don't make policies. If anything, they guide discussion about policies.

peterh

But mods tend to follow what the community (=power users) say, I think it could be a problem in your case. You had probably conflicts with the power users.

DanielSank

@tpg2114 I'm not sure I understand the meaning of what you've written there.

> I (personally) think your reservations are a user perception problem...

You're saying that my reservation is an example of a wider problem in how users perceive something?

tpg2114

03:47

Specifically referring to:
> I think at least a few of the candidates have voiced motivations which reflect a misunderstanding about what the moderators do.
I kind of want to explain why I think I can contribute to policy and reviews in a very effective way without having mod powers.

peterh

@DanielSank They have a huge say in constructing them, and a significant freedom in applying them.

tpg2114

and:

> Another problem (for me) is that I'd like to be able to debate policy issues with the full force of my convictions without worrying that readers will interpret what I say as already established policy.

DanielSank

@peterh Yes but look at how @DavidZ has gone about the rework of the homework policy. He hasn't enforced any decisions. He's just trying to make sense of the community's opinions.

@tpg2114 Ok...

What about those phrases?

tpg2114

I think users perceive the role of moderators to do those things and feel they (the users) play a secondary role in it. So I think the reasons the nominations -- mine included -- focus on those areas is because the majority of users expect moderators to focus on those areas

DanielSank

@tpg2114 Yes, indeed. I wonder if that perception is well-founded.

tpg2114

03:49

It's a perception issue I think. The users need to see moderators aren't the final voice in things, and that the users can take the initiative and be constructive

DanielSank

At least three of our moderators do almost nothing regarding policy. dmckee, manishearth, and Qmechanic rarely post on meta.

tpg2114

I think it's a chicken-and-egg problem. Early on, it was probably required that moderators take that role

peterh

@DanielSank And... the community didn't gave a really clear opinion.

DanielSank

@peterh Yes! I have my own opinion about why that is.

I don't think it's because the community has no opinion. I think it's because the meta posts were (although crafted with dedication and effort) very unclear.

tpg2114

Even when I started here (the last moderator election), the community was attacking itself and moderators had to take a firmer role in things. But I think things are now where there are enough users with high rep that the community can start moderating itself. And moderators just guide the discussions and deal with the janitorial work.

DanielSank

03:51

@tpg2114 That message is hard to interpret without knowing what you mean by "moderate" ;)

peterh

@DanielSank He tried to use statistics in the meta posts, and tried to collect a sensible opinion from them. But... honestly, I could have said it even without statistic, that the question closure happens currently on the site mainly randomly :-)

DanielSank

To me, "moderate" mostly means "use the capabilities granted by the software to do stuff that other 10k users can't do".

tpg2114

@DanielSank To moderate -- enforce the policies and guidelines of the site to ensure its quality and success. The users self-moderate what they can, and the moderators do the rest (what you are defining as moderate)

DanielSank

@tpg2114 "Enforce policy" and "make policy" are different.

tpg2114

I don't really see as much of a distinction between users who want to participate and moderators... except some extra tools and a much bigger hammer.

DanielSank

03:54

I think of this in terms of the USA system of government:

1. Legislative branch: make policy
2. Executive branch: enforce policy
3. Judicial branch: decide when someone acted against policy

Moderators do a bit of each.

tpg2114

Certainly -- but I don't consider making policy to be moderating (and that's why I don't think moderators have extra weight in the discussion of the policy).

DanielSank

Mostly they should do #2 and #3, and guide discussion on #1.

@tpg2114 Oh! Yes, they don't. At least, not in terms of capabilities granted by the software (although they are the ones who can tweak things like the close reasons, I think).

tpg2114

I think of it more like a traditional legislature -- moderators preside over the session and settle debates between users when rules need clarifying or users are out of line. But mostly, the users themselves call out violations (points of order), establish the policies (with discussion from the chair/moderators), and set forth the goals of the body

@DanielSank Agreed -- but I think that goes back to the heart of the perception problem. You didn't want your voice to carry extra weight beyond what it should, and I understand that for sure. But I think it's important to change the perception that it should carry more weight.

DanielSank

@tpg2114 I like that analogy.

@tpg2114 Another good point!

Our opinions are not at odds with each other.

I voice concern that misplaced perception could be a problem.

You voice the opinion that we should correct the mistaken perception.

tpg2114

@DanielSank I agree with that, and I agree with the summary. I've learned that no matter the intentions, no matter what somebody wanted, how it is perceived is what matters. Perception is reality.

user116211

04:11

@DanielSank Man, this is really a good approach to think.

DanielSank

04:24

@tpg2114 Yes. I should mention also that I have a reasonably strong tone in real life too.

So I have some meager idea of how that affects my communications with other people.

Telling people "don't take my strong tone/convictions too seriously" is not as effective as one might hope ;)

user116211

@DanielSank Who said it? Trump?

user116211

Nevermind ;P

DanielSank

04:42

Also, FWIW, I think having moderatorship as a life-sentence is perhaps not ideal.

peterh

04:57

@DanielSank Internet communities tend to develop into an inbred direction. With time, mostly an "inner circle" evolves whose actions forbids to change the system or to decrease its influence. Note, it doesn't mean that it should be an intentional behavior, unintentionally can it also happen, simply because it is the only stable state of the system.

@DanielSank I've seen it numerous times since the first irc channels, and, I think, this is the main reason, why internet communities tend to grow, age and finally die.

@DanielSank But it is bad, I think in the case of the SE system, something could be done against it.

user116211

BTW, @DanielSank, I cannot share any comment from the election page. Am I the only onw who encountered it?

DanielSank

@MAFIA36790 Ohhhhh. Interesting.

user116211

@DanielSank I can't upvote a comment also :(

peterh

05:13

@DanielSank Actually, mods are working daily 1 hrs free for the SE Inc

@DanielSank I am not surprised that as I know, mods are mostly active only in the first year of their activity

John Duffield

12:52

If anybody wants to ask me anything, feel free.

ACuriousMind

@JohnDuffield When will you add your answers to the moderator questionnaire?

John Duffield

@ACuriousMind: Later today.

David Z

14:42

→ 5 messages moved to Physics Meta

→ 4 messages moved to Trash

g g

so i should ?

David Z

→ 1 message moved to Physics Meta

Jim

15:28

I guess I should be here to answer questions

David Z

15:46

I want to bounce an idea: people seemed generally in favor of having a chat session related to the moderator election. The next scheduled chat session on October 4 seems like a good time (as it's just past the cutoff for nominations), but there's no guarantee it would work for all the moderator candidates, and it doesn't seem fair to just schedule it then without considering the candidates' availability.

So, do people want to have this chat considering that we (I mean, I) will have to go to a bit of trouble to schedule it?

It's sort of short notice

user116211

@DavidZ We have talked about it briefly in the previous chat session, right? It's really a good idea to execute this.

ACuriousMind

@DavidZ Considering there are already 8 nominations now, is it even feasible to do a single session with all nominees?

vzn

@DanielSank its all up to you, think youd make fine mod, you can avoid using powers even when having them, aka the comic book ethics "with great power comes great responsibility"™ :P

David Z

@ACuriousMind It'd be busy, but yes, it's feasible.

Or, I mean, setting aside scheduling.

ACuriousMind

Chat tends to get cluttered and hard to follow if there's more than half a dozen people actively talking, in my experience

David Z

15:49

The logistics of having 8 people answering questions concurrently are not new. It's been done before and we can do it here.

ACuriousMind

Well, it's 8 now. I'd expect more like 15 or so at least by the end of the nomination phase

vzn

a note to the mods on this site: DZ has been very gracious about proposing/ allowing guest (chat) sessions, he encouraged it, thx for that, think its been great, really enjoyed it, personal highlight for me, we had 4 sessions. DZ is very active in chat, he has the biweekly session, think its a great idea/ mod quality, would like to encourage that, although agree its optional. would like to encourage all mods to do a chat session of their own, and help find/ encourage other guests etc

David Z

We can use the last one as a model.

@ACuriousMind participation would be voluntary of course, and I wouldn't expect all candidates to be there.

ACuriousMind

@DavidZ Maybe if people aren't tired of reading meta posts yet you could just make a meta post with some tentative dates and see how the response (both from nominees and other users) is?

Also, look at the size of those digests from the last time when there were five candidates. Who's going to do that this time?

David Z

I think we can get by without a meta post - we can just collect information on availability here in chat.

Jim

15:58

I'm usually unavailable for chat sessions. They always seem to be scheduled during lab time or lunch time

David Z

or, I dunno, maybe a Doodle poll or something

@Jim cool, noted

Everyone else @ACuriousMind @Marcel @tpg2114 @knzhou @AlfredCentauri @barrycarter @JohnDuffield can you be at the next chat session October 4 16:00-17:00 UTC?

Jim

I suppose this is a special occasion, however. I can try to be around

David Z

That would be nice. What times work for you if we don't do the regular chat session slot?

between when the nomination period ends (October 3 I think?) and, say, October 8

ACuriousMind

@DavidZ Probably yes.

Jim

@DavidZ On a tuesday? 1600UTC might actually be the best. Lab at 1500 and 1800. Lunch can be moved to 1640 or something

David Z

16:01

@Jim could be another day

@ACuriousMind cool thanks

ACuriousMind

I say probably because my exact plans for the next few days are subject to spontaneous change. I'll have time to be on the site, but I can't exactly commit to specific times.

Jim

@DavidZ monday's terrible. Wednesday is good, but tuesday means I can be here and keep an eye on students at the same time. Nobody wants me to do additional stuff at that time

David Z

@ACuriousMind Ah, I see... well then, the best we can do is try to pick a time when you're most likely to be available. Like I said, it's voluntary.

@Jim ok

Jim

We should probably just make a note to heavily star messages from the session that we think are important for any absent nominees to read. Or something that makes it easy for them to quickly find and read

David Z

Yeah, we can check with the SE team and see if they still have the machinery for making the digest like they did last time

anyway I have to take off for now, but I'll collect replies and figure something out tomorrow

tpg2114

16:27

@DavidZ That should work for me, no problem.

Marcel

@DavidZ I try if i don't forget

barrycarter

@DavidZ I'm running on a "do nothing" campaign, and don't think a meeting with other candidates would be useful. I'm hoping that the common man (who generally isn't in chat) will elect me.

Marcel

@barrycarter what about women?

Jim

@barrycarter what are you basing these hopes and dreams on?

John Duffield

@DavidZ : I can do that time as I speak. But it's a bit awkward for me, I'd have to leave work early. I tend not to participate in the 16:00 chat sessions much because they start when my normal work day ends.

barrycarter

16:35

@Marcel I'd make some sort of joke here, but I'm sure it would used against me.

Marcel

@barrycarter I was just joking either. Now i feel bad :(

barrycarter

@Jim I think many everyday users are frustrated by having good questions closed and the site not living up to its own statement purpose of helping students.

Jim

@barrycarter Just say you'll build a firewall between us and any women users and that you're going to make the women pay for it

barrycarter

@Marcel I feel your pain.

Jim

@barrycarter so basically, it's your hope that you get elected by people who have no serious investment in the site and generally don't care too much about it in the long term because you know that the people who do care about it and have an investment in it would strongly disagree with your policies as a mod?

HDE 226868

16:39

@barrycarter I'd still appreciate a response (I know my comment on your nomination may have gotten lost among the others) as to what you think is wrong with the current moderators, what you'd do differently, and, more importantly, how you'll work with them if elected. Frankly, I think that could be an issue with some of the candidates here - working with, not instead of, the current mods.

g g

?

barrycarter

@Jim I'm hoping I'll be elected by the people who want to use the site, but can't, because their questions are downvoted and closed. I believe that's what this site was and is made for, and I will help to follow that vision. Unfortunately, the people who "have an investment" in this site seem to favor abusive moderation policies. So, if you're asking whether I support the common man or the current oligarchy, I favor the common man.

@HDE226868 I'm trying to draft a reply/edit that will answer all of the comments, but let me answer yours here. On a good site, working with the moderators is a good thing. On an abusive site, working against the moderators is a good thing. When I look at the number of closed questions and the quality of those questions, "aggressive" is the least objectionable adjective that comes to mind.

HDE 226868

@barrycarter So, if you're elected, we'll have a team of moderators which disagrees with itself on substantial issues?

g g

?

Jim

Hang on, this sounds like an invasion now. You want to get elected into power, overthrow the existing system, and essentially force out all those that currently use the site and enjoy its policies in favour of less interested groups of people who don't currently use the site. You want those who are here to leave and those who aren't here to come.

g g

16:43

have all my questions been deleted?

barrycarter

@HDE226868 Like in most governing systems, dissent is a good thing. I want the site to be what a q-and-a site is supposed to be and what stackexchange is supposed to be. The current moderation doesn't even meet the site's own policy.

Jim

That's like kicking someone out of a house so that others can move in

2

barrycarter

@Jim Less interested only because they have been shunned. It's a larger group of people, and this (stackexchange) is ultimately supposed to be some sort of democracy. People who currently use this site and feel students should be kept out will probably be unhappy, but I feel there's nothing I can do about that.

@Jim No, Jim. It's like electing a Congressman who will vote against the President.

@Jim You see this site as a house that you co-own with other moderators?

Jim

@barrycarter and change the country so that the people who like it will leave

Marcel

man this is getting too political :D

HDE 226868

16:47

@barrycarter It's really not.

You'd be one of six presidents, to continue your analogy.

barrycarter

@Jim This debate is starting to sound like it's deeper than what it's actually about. People who like a hateful abusive country where a small minority dictates to a large majority... yes, I am hoping they leave.

@HDE226868 Yes, and I'd probably be outvoted every time. It's a slow process.

HDE 226868

Am I the only one who feels like a lot of the candidates don't know what they're getting into?

I can't speak for the Physics mods, but that's not my experience. Mods act a lot on their own, except for certain issues.

You don't convene to discuss close/reopen voting on each question, for instance.

barrycarter

Well, if I can stop good questions from being closed, I will have fulfilled my mission.

HDE 226868

That's why I'm worried - because if mod X does something that mod Y completely disagrees with, and this happens on a consistent basis, we've got a site-wide problem.

barrycarter

My primary goal is to make the site more welcoming for students. This is supposed to be a q-and-a site.

ACuriousMind

16:51

@barrycarter Moderators should not make policy. That's not their job description. It sounds to me as if you are solely running to change policy, but policy-making is the job of the general community. The mods are supposed to assist and guide that process, but they are not supposed to make actual decisions about policy.

3

HDE 226868

^ This.

barrycarter

@HDE226868 While I see where that could be a problem, how can the site improve without at least one moderator who disagrees?

HDE 226868

@barrycarter Because as @ACuriousMind just said, mods don't set site policy.

They aren't the strongest force shaping its evolution.

barrycarter

@ACuriousMind This site does not follow its written policy, so I will enforce existing policy, not create new policy.

I also believe this site doesn't follow general StackExchange guidelines, but I have to admit that I haven't looked at those carefully.

ACuriousMind

All this political analogy isn't helpful because moderators are more akin to policemen and janitors than to legislators. They hold mainly executive power, and we mainly elect people with legislative power in the real world, so the analogy hopelessly fails.

barrycarter

16:54

@ACuriousMind OK, I guess I'd like to see a source on that statement. I'm still talking about enforcing existing policy, not creating new policy.

Please keep in mind the chances of my winning this election are smaller than epsilon!

Marcel

I can understand his cause. He's trying to make the site more available to an underrepresented majority that is only loosely participating due to some strict moderation policies. That majority might as well be part of a more broader community if moderation policies changed, which in turn can lead to meta post that change the overall orientation of this site.

2

ACuriousMind

@barrycarter When you say: "Unfortunately, the current moderators are overly aggressive (to put it mildly), close good questions, and make this site useless or even harmful to students of physics. " it sure sounds as if you disagree with current policies (like the homework policy) and it also sounds as if you might confuse moderator action with the action of ordinary users with the ability to vote to close because I don't see the current moderators closing all that many questions.

barrycarter

@ACuriousMind If I remember the homework policy correctly, it says homework questions are OK, provided they ask about the general concept and not specific plug-n-chug. I do remember debating that policy previously. As a moderator, I could undo poor close votes (I believe).

ACuriousMind

@barrycarter So your explicit goal is to use the unilateral moderator vote to undo a large number of closures that five users agreed upon?

barrycarter

@ACuriousMind Not necessarily a large number. But some such closures, yes.

Marcel

17:03

:D

barrycarter

0

Q: Please guide me where i am wrong

This is the question: The pressure inside two soap bubbles is 1.01 and 1.02 atm. What is the ratio of their volumes? This is what i did: Formula: \begin{align} P & = \frac{4 S}{r} \end{align} From there: \begin{align} \frac{P_1}{P_2} & = \frac{r_2}{r_1} \\ \frac{\frac{4}{3} \pi r_1^3}{\...

I believe that question fits within policy, since it shows an effort. The answer is also useful in general.

-1

Q: Ratio of periods for small oscillations of thin circular hoop

A thin circular hoop of radius $r$ and mass $m$ is hanging on the ceiling and is oscillating in the ring plane, the rotation axis is perpendicular to the ring place. Moment of inertia for circular hoop is: $I_x=\frac{mr^2}{2}$, $I_y=\frac{mr^2}{2}$, $I_z=mr^2$ How can I calculate the ratio betw...

classical-mechanics rotational-dynamics harmonic-oscillator moment-of-inertia

Another one I would have reopened.

Alfred Centauri

@DavidZ I think that will work for me.

ACuriousMind

@barrycarter It shows effort, but where's the conceptual question?

barrycarter

@ACuriousMind It's actually in the answer showing that the atm comparison must be made to the existing atmosphere, not between the bubbles. It's an important misconception and clearing it up could help others.

0

Q: A Moving Particle Sticking To The Rod

Conceptual Problem:About which point should we conserve angular momentum? (I wanted to share this problem along with my own solution below)

homework-and-exercises newtonian-mechanics rotational-dynamics reference-frames

I can't see the self-answer to this, but, depending on what it was, might re-open it.

1

A: Trajectory of projectile launched from planet's surface

Without loss of generality, we can draw our axes so the projectile's initial position is in the xz plane. Allowing phi to be the launch site's latitude, the projectile's initial position is: $\{r \cos (\phi ),0,r \sin (\phi )\}$ The launch site completes a rotation in time p, so its position a...

I think that was a perfectly good question and answer, but it was closed on physics.SE Obviously, I'm biased.

1

Q: Rope tension problem homework

I have the following homework question I got confused with: A man having a mass of 85,0 kg is hanging in the midpoint of a rope which can support him up to 2,5 kN force. While he his hanging the rope creates an angle $\theta$ with the horizontal line. (a) will the rope stay intact if ...

homework-and-exercises forces free-body-diagram statics string

That's actually a fantastic question.

0

Q: Finding the initial velocity vector to launch a projectile from one location to another?

I have a problem where I need to figure out the initial velocity vector $\vec{v_0}$ of a projectile, in order for it to land at the final position $\vec{r_f} = x_f\hat{x} + y_f\hat{y} + z_f\hat{z}$, from initial position $\vec{r_0}$. The only knowns in the problem are $\vec{r_0}$ and $\vec{r_...

homework-and-exercises classical-mechanics kinematics velocity projectile

OK, that's the last one for now.

ACuriousMind

I count ten different close voters on these questions altogether and no reopen vote anywhere. Which is evidence that the community generally is in favour of these closures. What you're saying is that as a moderator you would overrule this status quo in favour of your personal conception of what the site should be?

barrycarter

17:15

@ACuriousMind No, reopen based on what site policy actually says.

I feel really bad that I have to be going now, but I do.

Jim

17:53

@barrycarter Yes, your skills at twisting my words to obfuscate the point and turn them against me are impressive. But no, I see this site as a house that I alone own and rule over with an iron fist

Jim

18:06

I don't look forward to a situation where there would be enormous amounts of fighting between mods. Already we have users that complain about mods who take action by themselves without any regard for what everyone wants. Nor do I think ACM would find it easy to get used to being a mod if the other person voted in with him was actively trying to subvert the purposes of the other moderators

Shog9

19:52

→ 110 messages moved to Ineligible nominations

→ 1 message moved to Ineligible nominations

ok, kinda biffed that. But all's well that ends well.

peterh

@Shog9 Please don't take it an insult! I simply can't understand. You are a company, you want many hits, good company image, a lot of visitors, etc. The inner circles you are defending quite vehemently, working against it.

Shog9

Per Jim's request, please keep the conversation here relevant to the current election, and discuss withdrawals - if you must - in the room linked above.

And @peterh... That's a weird question to ask in either room. If you wanna talk network philosophy, join me in The Tavern

...were you?

...nevermind. Tavern.

peterh

:32585283 Don't worry. The Messiah probably won't come tomorrow, but also the devil won't.

vzn

21:24

@tpg2114 havent seen you in ages in main chat room, plz drop by, think you could be potential invited guest speaker if you have any interest...? we had a great run of 4 in a row over summer but dont have a next guest lined up yet :(

Danu

@vzn but we do, now!

vzn

22:00

@Danu the more the merrier right? think Riedel could be great but is unconfirmed so far & it may be "not easy" getting anyone who hasnt at least chatted before...

Danu

@vzn He'll come, pretty much guaranteed.

He talked to DanielSank about it in real life, so he's probably committed in some sense :)

knzhou

The average candidate quality went up, so I withdrew. I'll re-nominate if it goes down again.

Danu

@knzhou Ah :P

I think we're probably set with the current candidates.

Alenanno

22:34

@ACuriousMind Well, they can state their opinion as users on new/existing policies, though. Or in any case, as long as they don't go around acting like they rule everything (i.e. creating new policy/rules unilaterally) , moderators can participate in the process since they are part of the community.

ACuriousMind

22:47

@Alenanno Sure, I didn't mean to say that can't or shouldn't do that, but "participating in the process" didn't seem to me to be what barrycarter was advocating. In particular, he was very explicit about unilaterally reopening questions that have been closed by five ordinary users and whose closure is currently rather uncontroversial.

Alenanno

@ACuriousMind Ah yeah, I do agree with you that retro-reopening questions unilateral is not a good idea.

Transcript for

2016 Physics Stack Exchange Election