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00:00
@MaliceVidrine Is there a name for the "tame theories" and "wild theories"? I'd like to read more about that.
Also, if you know some book introductory about it, could you recommend me?
00:40
@BillyRubina - There are some different notions of tameness, but stability is one of the big ones. You'd find definitions and examples in something like Marker's Model Theory: An Introduction would have information about stability and some of the other notions of tameness; though it's not really what I'd call introductory if you're not already a little familiar with models of first order logic.
I'd check out something like Rautenberg or Ebbinghaus et. al for something more introductory that will still cover how compactness/the Lowenheim-Skolem theorems work.
And those would prepare you to read a more involved text like Marker's.
(I know Rautenberg is one that user21820 also recommends, because they're the one who introduced me to it!)
01:02
@MaliceVidrine Thanks!
 
3 hours later…
04:18
@BillyRubina Indeed, MaliceVidrine has provided you the outline of a proof of LS. You should actually work through the technical details, because if you don't understand the proof then you won't know how ridiculously little control you have over the models that LS produces.
And yes I recommend Rautenberg's "A Concise Introduction to Mathematical Logic". It really lives up to its name for conciseness; it packs a lot in a single book! =)
But you really need undergraduate mathematics background to learn from Rautenberg. If you do not know basic FOL (i.e. how to use FOL in normal mathematical reasoning), then you should start with learning that first, otherwise Rautenberg may be inscrutable.
But I see from our conversation history that you should have learnt basic FOL, so I think Rautenberg is a good book for you to try!
Anyway, back to the question of models of different sizes, here is a simple example: Let T be the theory with a single predicate-symbol P and axioms that force elements satisfying P to be infinite and force elements satisfying ¬P to be infinite too. That is, ∃x,y ( x≠y ∧ P(x) ∧ P(y) ), ∃x,y,z ( x≠y≠z≠x ∧ P(x) ∧ P(y) ∧ P(z) ), ... and similarly for ¬P. Then T has exactly one countable model up to isomorphism, but has 3 non-isomorphic models of cardinality aleph(1).
As for PA, there is a theorem that only the standard model (ℕ,0,1,+,·,<) of PA is computable, even though we can use compactness to construct uncountably many non-isomorphic countable models of PA! That is how bad models produced by compactness can get. Models produced by LS are worse.
 
2 hours later…
06:04
@user21820 This is really interesting.
06:19
I am curious about the following (excuse me for the stupid question): What doing mathematics in those other models look like? For example, I guess I know what doing math with PA looks like but what doing math in these other models "look like"?
@BillyRubina By definition, all models of PA satisfy PA... so if you only use axioms of PA then what you prove is true in all of them. But since PA is syntactically incomplete (see the starred post on the incompleteness theorem), there are arithmetical sentences that are true for ℕ but false for other models of PA.
You cannot 'do math' in models. You can only (as I did) talk about which sentences are true in which models.
@user21820 But isn't this equivalent to "do math" on them? After all, in math, we are always talking about what sentences are true.
No.
When you do (proper) mathematics, you write:
> 1+2 = 3.
You do not write:
> "1+2 = 3" is true.
Because the second one is meaningless unless you define "true".
 
10 hours later…
16:35
0
A: What exactly do systems of equations represent?

user21820A system of equations can be understood as a set of equalities over a given FOL structure. It is the structure that tells you what operations are allowed, which allows you to form terms possibly with free variables, and each equality is simply a formula of the form "$t=u$" where $t,u$ are terms o...

^ For some reason, people don't like logic. =(
16:53
@MaliceVidrine @user2103480 @user76284: Any of you can find a smaller graph for this question?
 
2 hours later…
18:30
@user21820 In my dream world I would have been taught logic before complex analysis.
"Gaussian elimination on a linear system of equations works over any field, not just the field of reals"
I wonder : field? Is division ring not enough?
@Threnody I was lazy to think whether it works over division rings, so I said "field".
@Threnody I guess I'm fortunate because I taught myself logic before even learning real analysis. =)
5
Q: Why Gaussian Elimination only works over field?

avocadoWhen I was solving system of linear congruences (n variables, n equations), like this: $AX \equiv b \pmod p$ I was told that ordinary Gaussian Elimination works if $p$ is prime. And I figured out that when $p$ is prime, integers $\pmod p$ form a field, otherwise it doesn't form a field, but a r...

@Threnody In case you are misreading, that thread does not imply that it works only over fields.
By the way, if you see a problem in my post, let me know. Currently there are 3 downvoters who refuse to explain why they downvoted, but I don't see an actual problem.
19:08
I'm not sure if there is but I guess some people expected a more intuitive answer?
@user21820 oh my these things are really not my suit
@Threnody Well, I guess The_Sympathizer's answer has a simplified version of mine, but I think the same downvoter downvoted that answer as well, so who knows why.
@user2103480 Haha.. I have always liked graph theory. =)
@user21820 my nemesis
Don't you find all those polyhedra pretty?
it was already hard for me, and then the lecturer started to talk about graphs on a torus and cited some results with 5 names in them
19:22
@user2103480 Ee... I don't like graph theory mixed with analysis.
Anything on manifolds are necessarily analysis-related, and it rapidly becomes very messy.
I only like it when it is purely combinatorial.
oh and things such as fractional chromatic numbers and whatever
@user21820 it was more topological. planarity and such
@user21820 ugh we had enough of that as well, some crazy graph glueings in this and that way as counterexamples
but in the end it got pretty analytic I think. the lecturer specialized in information theory and graph theory. a lot of that lovasz stuff
I see.
I have never gotten around to looking at the forbidden minors theorem.
It's supposed to be a purely logic theorem.
@user21820 isnt the proof some 100 pages long?
meaning the full fledged graph minor theorem
There's supposed to be an easier version for trees, but I've always wanted to figure out for myself what is so hard about the theorem.
its pretty general, isn't it?
thats why I dont like combinatorics
19:28
Hahaha..
when one gets rid of the pathologies, it seems that those lovely infinities make many things nicer
and what the pathologies are is more evident than in the finite setting
In the finite setting, almost everything is a pathology.
and yes the graph is beautiful :P
how long do you take breaks from serious studying?
I've found myself totally unwilling to do any exercises to prepare for my next semester haha. which is pretty different from last semester's break where I did a lot of computability/category theory/statistics
@user2103480 You may not want to learn from me. When I was a student, I never ever learned ahead except for reading Spivak's Calculus. That was the only textbook I ever read systematically through.
believe me I will never be able to work through large parts of a book on serious content
19:35
Instead, what I did was to explore whatever I wanted all the time, including during class while waiting for the lecturer to finish some easy proof that I knew I could construct myself.
The end result was that my knowledge was full of holes, but when I actually took courses those holes were not hard to fill in at all.
I'm not focused enough and every resource has deficits
But I did make sure that I knew almost everything in each course.
I was just too lazy to learn it in advance.
I've always managed to know sufficiently much when the exams came
Hehe so you do sound like me.
this semester may be a bit more chill, but I've often taken courses where I skipped preceding courses
19:39
I see.
for example, my set theory lecture barely covered cofinality, so I went through some 40 pages of further set theory to be able to follow in the models of set theory class
Are you in your final year now?
haha, well I could be, but I'm switching my focus
let's say, after this semester I have satisfied a lot of my curiosity and mathematical goals, if I manage to stem the workload
Ah I see. Do you have some final year thesis or something like that, and what area do you plan to work in for that?
and the year after that is my final year. thank god I don't have to pay tuition
I have to write my master's thesis somewhen. The area will probably be (no pun intended) probability
19:42
Haha.
3/4 of my courses next semester will be based on stochastic analysis. Which is also harsh since I had to learn the rudiments for a course last semester, but dont know the topic in depth. But I'm more scared of topology II
But the stochastic analysis things will hopefully be ok since I don't have to switch the mode of thinking as much as in other semesters
and you, how's the thesis going?
Do you plan on staying in academia afterwards?
I want to teach if possible. I don't fancy academic research that much; I don't like the publication pressure.
19:59
High school? Or are there specialised positions for uni teachers?
@user2103480 Some universities have teaching positions which don't require much research work.
In germany, teaching is done by PhDs, postdocs, professors. There are also permanent researchers at institutes like MPI that teach, or affiliate professors (probably comparable to adjuncts, but with a decent salary)
but it's hard to get a job as an almost pure lecturer
@user21820 good luck then!
Yea I have no idea what the job market will be like when I'm done with my phd. I'll just see how it goes, and thanks for your well wishes! =)
Haha, who knows huh?
It's probably smart for me as well to graduate in 2022, not in 2021

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