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03:47
@user21820 I'm interested.
@user21820 Slightly off-topic, but I find it fascinating that people study this sort of thing and write papers about it, interpreting it, rather than actually philosophizing.
 
1 hour later…
user131753
05:02
13 hours ago, by user21820
@user170039: I've read about 20% of the pdf so far. I wish to start mentioning key points so that I don't forget them later. The first point is that Wittgenstein is being very imprecise in what he is said to have written (page 10). I will fault him for at least that, even if one argues that he actually had complete grasp of the incompleteness theorems. Specifically, he implies that Godel's "true" means "proved in Russell's system".
user131753
I agree with what you say in the above messages.
user131753
05:13
I couldn't find (in page 24) what you claim Shankar to have said in the following,
user131753
12 hours ago, by user21820
However, he's wrong to say "Gödel was barred by virtue of the logical grammar of mathematical proposition from claiming that he had constructed identical versions of the same mathematical proposition in two different systems." Godel didn't do such a thing, as would be clear to anyone who has basic grasp of logic and model theory.
user131753
05:36
Regarding,
user131753
13 hours ago, by user21820
But it is invalid to go from that claim to the general claim that all mathematical statements are of the same nature.
user131753
Can you explain the reason for saying so?
user131753
05:55
Since you didn't say anything else regarding the remaining part of the paper, I will only ask you questions when you have gone through it @user21820.
user131753
06:17
Although unrelated, recently while reading a significant amount of literature on Russell's logic (or more specifically the logic of Principia Mathematica), I found that your viewpoint as stated in the following,
user131753
Jul 21 at 16:00, by user21820
@user170039 Thanks, but I think I'll pass. Unless someone shows a flaw with the incompleteness theorems (which I've myself proven), I just don't see a need to know what exactly the authors of PM were thinking. If their system is really not susceptible to the incompleteness theorems, then it necessarily must either be imprecise or unable to prove at least one true Π1-sentence of arithmetic, which is quite serious a problem, to say the least.
@user170039 Then I suppose that there's not going to be much that we disagree on, because my main gripe with philosophers is just the lack of precision. Anyway let me respond to your comments. =)
@user170039 Sorry it was page 23. You can also find it by searching for "barred". =)
user131753
Sorry, in my previous comments, that is in the following,
user131753
4 mins ago, by user 170039
Although unrelated, recently while reading a significant amount of literature on Russell's logic (or more specifically the logic of Principia Mathematica), I found that your viewpoint as stated in the following,
user131753
4 mins ago, by user 170039
Jul 21 at 16:00, by user21820
@user170039 Thanks, but I think I'll pass. Unless someone shows a flaw with the incompleteness theorems (which I've myself proven), I just don't see a need to know what exactly the authors of PM were thinking. If their system is really not susceptible to the incompleteness theorems, then it necessarily must either be imprecise or unable to prove at least one true Π1-sentence of arithmetic, which is quite serious a problem, to say the least.
06:23
@user170039 Not every English sentence that looks like a factual statement can be assumed to have a truth value. Quine's paradox is the most undeniable instance of that. However, one cannot from that fact infer that not every mathematical statement can be assumed to have a truth value. In other words, it can still be consistent (even if meaningless) to assume that every mathematical statement has a truth value.
user131753
I forgot to add that "..although correct but not doing justice to Russell and Whitehead's original aim of pursuing the projects of PM." (Anyway, I am going to discuss this with you in the Philosophy of Mathematics room, if you are willing.)
More strongly, in my view detailed in that post about paradoxes, it is in fact sound to assume that every statement about reality has a truth value. Then the important question now is which mathematical statements are about reality.
Most logicians will say that all arithmetical statements can be interpreted to be about reality. A minority will say that only those with bounded quantifiers can.
This distinction is related to the 2 defensible positions I mentioned earlier.
@user170039 I don't really know the details, but from what I've read Russell himself gave up the original aim of PM, and later invented type theory as a way out of the Russell paradox. But it isn't satisfying to me. Neither is ZFC though.
I don't mind whichever room you'd like to discuss it in, by the way, so you could copy any of our comments over and continue there if you wish.
@Wildcard Hahahah... I too had that thought just yesterday when talking about it...
@Wildcard You can read a short sketch starting here.
06:50
@user21820 Thanks; I enjoyed that.
Incidentally, I'm agnostic as well. That might surprise you. :)
@Wildcard You're welcome! I've to go now, but feel free to continue with any logic stuff, or join in the conversation with @user170039. =)
@user21820 Perfect, 'cause I was gonna say I can't stay. :)
See you next time! =)
user131753
07:44
@Wildcard: You are welcome to this room if you want to conduct discussion regarding Philosophy of Mathematics. As of now it is a "gallery" room but you can always ask for write access.
08:44
@user170039 Thanks; I've requested access. However, I'll note that I'm a bit of an odd bird. I don't care about pushing particular ideas or even reading particular ideas so much as I do about having real communication with people. :)
So I'd be happy to chat with you about pretty much anything. It just so happens that I know that logic will be a common interest, but I'm not much for starting conversations on the internet. I like to have a conversant first, usually.
@user170039 So what would you like to chat about? :) (Ping me in any chat room you like if it's not relevant to logic/foundations.)
Incidentally, I don't quite see where the dividing line would/should be between "philosophy of mathematics" and "foundations."
But then again.... existentialcomics.com/comic/89 (Section on "brainstorming.") ;)
 
6 hours later…
user131753
14:24
@Wildcard: I hope to see you in Philosophy of Mathematics very soon (and you are welcome to join the ongoing discussion too).
15:33
@Wildcard You are both welcome to SBA's realm to chat about random stuff. I'm sure he'd love to have you both visiting his realm more often! @user170039 is already an occasional visitor. =)

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