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A: Is the story of a divine miracle at Mt. Sinai, witnessed by a national audience, unique among cultures or religions?

A LI think there are examples of cultures with myths equivalent, to varying degrees, to the Mt. Sinai tradition such that it is not one of a kind. Aztec Huitzilopochtli Myth and revelation of Huitzilopochtli The Aztecs, who settled in Lake Texcoco, believed themselves to be descended from tribes o...

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@DJClayworth All I needed was a culture claiming descent from those who witnessed miracles. My first example of the entire Aztec nation would certainly qualify on every count, unless I've misunderstood something?
@DJClayworth In the first case it would be the original Aztec tribe, and in the second case it would be the five soldiers who grew from the dragon's teeth.
@TheMathemagician Noah's flood is global in the Bible and flood myths, this is what is ruled out. Yes, there have been frequent localized floods around the region over thousands of years, and if you have a link with more info for me, feel free to share it. But redefining Noah's flood as local isn't a great position as it completely goes against the explicit narrative in the Bible. Of course, this isn't the place for a discussion about that, but I am simply referring to the explicit, traditional understanding of the flood myths and not some modified apologetics version of it.
KAI
KAI
I'm sorry, but this is one of the worst highly voted answers I have seen on this site. Most of the response has nothing to do with the original question as I'll detail below. I think that people should be careful not to upvote questions relating to religion just because we expect the religious heavy claim to be wrong.
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@KAI Please do, and I'll see if I can justify my answer.
KAI
KAI
The essence of the Moses story is that representatives of a nation went up a mountain and miraculously get guidance directly from a divinity while their People watched. That's what we want to match. Debunking this claim with "The Noah story in the Bible is very similar to Utnapishtim, so Moses is a duplicate" doesn't work. Noah and Moses are different stories separated by a huge amount of time! Similarly, most of the other proposed matches only hit on one or two details of the Mt. Sinai story at most. I'm not saying that the original claim is correct, but this response isn't hitting.
The main point is that I don't think that you can claim that any story with divine guidance is a duplicate of the Moses story. For a very weak match I'd at least like to see something like a mountain. For a good match I'd like to see something like the People sinning while the heroes were getting the revelation, leading to the heroes having to go twice. That might be too much, but something other than "divine guidance" has to match.
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@KAI I guess my first thought is maybe you didn't carefully read the question and the answer, and I mean that without any offense. But first, to clarify about Noah: I don't argue against the truth of the Mt. Sinai story by saying Noah was a derivative story. What I do there is take the position of mainstream scholars about Noah being derivative, and I do so in a purely incidental fashion, to emphasize the fact that people back then believed that everyone could be traced back to a miraculous event. I just argue that the people believed that a direct line of their ancestors saw miracles. Second:
@KAI Second, please check Rabbi Kelemen's actual claim. His position is that the entire nation experienced national prophesy and miracles. I'm not sure if I was explicit enough about that, but his point is that everyone in the nation believed that all of their ancestors experienced an unmistakably miraculous event. He does not take the position that the citizens just watched as Moses walked to a fire and came back with commandments. Either way, he argues that there is no other nation or religion that believes all of their ancestors witnessed a miracle, and this is what is asked. Third:
@KAI Third, since his claim is not that no other group has a story very similar to Mt. Sinai, but more broadly that no other group believes their ancestors experienced a miraculous event in general, I do not need to match my counterexamples very closely to Mt. Siani. So I provide several examples that contradict his claim. And although I don't need to provide an example that is very similar, the Pipestone one does have a lot of similarities to Mt. Sinai. Fourth:
@KAI Fourth and finally, you said, "I don't think that you can claim that any story with divine guidance is a duplicate of the Moses story," and that is true. But my question does not request a duplicate of the story, and I don't claim my counterexamples to be duplicates. This is all about and only about people saying their ancestors saw miracles. I hope I have been able to clarify this for you.
@KAI Maybe just one last note to clarify, Kelemen was trying to prove the Torah true by basically saying that if it could be natural for people to believe all of their ancestors saw something that didn't actually happen, then you should expect at least one other group of people believed their ancestors saw miracles too, but that they don't. Although even this logic of his argument isn't great, if he were to actually try to argue it by saying that another nation had to believe in a very similar story with a mountain and everything people would think it's silly, and he wouldn't convince anybody.
KAI
KAI
00:58
Thanks for the clarification. But read your myths - they don't debunk the central claim in the question. The key component of the claim is that the miracles must be performed in front of a large group of people. The Aztec god speaks to one guy. Marumba speaks to one or two people at a time. You cite the Song of Hiawatha for the Sioux, which is not an actual legend (it's a 19th century poem loosely based on some legends). The Lakota story has a miracle witnesses by a couple people again. The Flood story doesn't have anything to do with Moses. The Thebes story has 5 people.
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@KAI Okay. He's not really explicit that it must be a large group, it's more about the ancestors. But to cover the need for a large group several of my counter examples have them. The Aztecs believed their ancestors were immortal, that's not a 1-person miracle. The whole encampment of the Lakota watched the woman transform. Marumda created the Pomo tribe, this isn't a 2-person event. The Pipestone story is before all the Native Americans (but if you can show they didn't believe this, please elaborate). And again, the flood story doesn't need to be similar to the story of Moses.
KAI
KAI
This has gone on too long for comments, but the Rabbi specifically excludes creation myths and miracles from his claim. So that doesn't count for a counterclaim. Believing somebody was immortal doesn't matter since the claim is that a large number of people needed to WITNESS it (it isn't clear to me how a large group of people can witness immortality). I'm discounting the Pipestone story for now since the Song of Hiawatha isn't an authentic legend. The one bit at the end of Lakota story with transformation might work.
With creation myths, every pretty much every culture has one, so I don't think that it would be reasonable to claim that every creation myth falsifies the original claim because in principle there would be witnesses created in the miracle. I think that your answer basically boils down to the Lakota transformation, which would work, although I'm guessing that the Rabbi would complain about scale (but whatever).
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@KAI How is it that the rabbi "specifically excludes creation myths" when the word "creation" doesn't appear once in the link you provided? And you don't think people could tell if they were immortal, living centuries before moving to a special island? You are right that this discussion has gone on long enough.

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