Mornings

@FélixGagnon-Grenier by a few minutes, I suppose so:-)

"a few" :p

@bp2017 pdftex and xetex, not latex

@bp2017 "engine" seems to be the popular term these days for a variant tex program, although it's not a defined term really. but latex is writtin in tex, it is not a variant tex program like xetex

@DavidCarlisle, thank you.

@bp2017 in texlive 2019 the variant tex binaries ("engines") are aleph, eptex, euptex, luajittex, luatex, pdftex, ptex, uptex, xetex and finally the original tex. texlive 2020 will add luahbtex

@DavidCarlisle, thank you, this clarifies everything.

that's a lot of texes

@UlrikeFischer I found the error, it's a type error in LuaTeX on Linux, your behaviour is actually correct.

(hopefully I did not wake some ancient greek god that will smack me for not pluralizing the letter correctly)

... so is coming to latex over the formatting of a cv common or?

@bp2017 My understanding is that e-tex is now part of pdftex. As e-tex no longer exists as a separate engine, the name is used to signify a certain set of extensions to tex instead. I think all (or at least most) of the engines other than the original tex support the e-tex extensions.

@bp2017 'Strict' e-TeX (Knuth's TeX + the e-TeX extensions and nothing else) isn't built by default nowadays. The etex program in TeX Live is actually pdfTeX running in DVI output mode, so does have things like \pdfstrcmp (a pdfTeX primitive but not one tied to PDF output)

Act 1: Notepad++ Free Uygur Edition

Act 2: github.com/notepad-plus-plus/notepad-plus-plus/issues

@HenriMenke Could you explain to the not-on-the-topic people like me? They are politically biasing Notepad++? I'm interested because It's my favorite editor.

@CarLaTeX The developer of Notepad++ spoke out against the deportation of the muslim Uygur minority in the Xinjiang province in China and now Chinese trolls are spamming and insutling him personally on the GitHub issue tracker of Notepad++.

@bp2017 etex, mltex, enctex, omega extensions used to be distributed but are no longer built, they have been included in one or other of the others

@HenriMenke Oooh

@MarcelKrüger very nice analysis.

a question for @DavidCarlisle tex.stackexchange.com/q/514094/138900

the manual say: A \psfrag command will remain in effect until its surrounding environment is exited. Therefore, you can define global \psfrags which will apply to every figure, or define \psfrags inside a a figure environment (for example) which apply to a single EPS file.

then @DavidCarlisle How do you make psfrag global? :-)

If someone other than David has a solution to this problem other than @Marijn's, I am equally interested. :-)

@DavidCarlisle twitter.com/fasterthanlime/status/1189210610497720321 (it has sound!)

@AndréC I answered there. It just means, don't execute it in a group.

@DavidCarlisle Okay, is there any other way to do this than @Marijn's?

@AndréC well more or less any loop construct other than pgf foreach does not group the items, just plain tex \loop or an expl3 loop or anything

Friends, out of curiosity, for those using desktops, what's your monitor size? I need to replace mine (a 21.5" wide) and it seems there's a 25" one with a good price...

@PauloCereda no need to go bigger than 19 feet, as that's \maxdimen

@DavidCarlisle :)

@PauloCereda at home I use the laptop screen (15") and here I have a 27" monitor

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@DavidCarlisle @JosephWright's Italian is way better than yours: guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT027/siunitx.pdf

@PauloCereda My laptop has a 15.6" diagonal, my desk has 22" diagonal. I think they're too small. In my opinion, the ideal solution is to display an A4 page in real size on a PDF reader, including the menu and top tabulation.

@AndréC Thanks for the insight. :) I might take a closer look at the bigger models.

@PauloCereda my monitor is a few years old and I have forgotten the size ;-), but it was quite large then. My laptop has 12". But I often prefer the laptop: for the monitor I have to exchange glasses: my varifocals are not good there.

@UlrikeFischer oh that's what worries me about big monitors. :) I still can handle 21" but not sure larger than that! :)

@PauloCereda It is not only the size, it depends also on the placement of the monitor. It probably should be lower so that I can look down at it. Currently with the wrong glasses I have to kick the head a bit to focus and that it is not good for the neck.

@PauloCereda I can't wear glasses with multiple focal lengths. Instead I wear so-called interview glasses that are adjusted to allow me to read the students' copies and screens properly. The distance is set to that of a person being interviewed.

@AndréC that's a good setup. :)

@UlrikeFischer oh

@MarcelKrüger do we already have an interface to choose shapers like Graphite? Khaled suggest I think shaper= at some time. If yes is there a test where one can see a difference?

@PauloCereda my Italian is brilliant, which means that I know what "tradotto da Tommaso Gordini" means.

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@JosephWright: David's introduction in the mailing list:

$ ack --tex "Carlisle" -hc /usr/local/texlive/2019/
499

David

Also

$ ack --java "owe David" /usr/local/texlive/2019/
/usr/local/texlive/2019/texmf-dist/source/support/arara/src/main/java/com/github/cereda/arara/Arara.java
202:        // I owe David Carlisle $100

OH NO

/quacks in despair

@PauloCereda Er, I don't think he'll see it (I can see the subscriber list)

@JosephWright oh

@UlrikeFischer Right, we have shaper= but it doesn't work with AAT (because AAT is not a separate shaper in HarfBuzz). Take for example the arabic-gr test. By default it uses the graphite2 shaper (you can explicitly add the raw option shaper=graphite2 to see that nothing changes. If you set shaper=ot (the regular OpenType shaper) you get a quite different appearance, especially in the separate line at the end where lots of composition is happening with Graphite.

@MarcelKrüger ok, will try to document this ... the /ActualText setting clashes a bit with the /Artifact marking ;-(.

@UlrikeFischer Is there a way to make them more compatible? We could add an option to only add the attributes/properties/whatever and let some other mechanism deal with actualyl marking them. Then the tagging system can just take over the responsibility here. Or do we only need to add additional properites to mark these as children of a higher element?

@MarcelKrüger probably I need to adapt the traversing code a bit to check for existing BDC-literals. I suspect that I would get problems with BDC from accsupp too here. But I want to get the page attributes right first, and then do something about the embedded files/associated files so I will put this in the issues for later.

@PauloCereda er you see the list?? (I don't)

@PauloCereda what's the ack command for me being ho-tex or rf-tex or tkz-sty or bidi-tex ? :-)

Hi all! How do you do?

@Rmano looks okay in a current texlive (assuming that the problem is that the black circles at the side are missing).

@UlrikeFischer Yes, I think that was the problem. Thanks!

How do you add a bunch of blank space?

I tried using several \\ but that didn't work

@JohnnyApplesauce \vspace{50cm}

Wow!

@Rmano if the luatex85 package is needed then that's a bad sign

That's a bunch

@DavidCarlisle that seems only to be the case on an old texlive. for me it worked without it.

@UlrikeFischer ah well that's good then:-)

If I want a parenthetical statement after the number from \section{}, what do I need?

I want to have "7 (Bonus)" where the 7 is a \section{}.

\section{(Bonus)} looks too ugly

because of the space between the number and the (

@JohnnyApplesauce you shouldn't have \section with an empty argument. Is this a list? are you sure you want section?

It's just questions 1-7

"This is the answer to question 1" and so forth

@JohnnyApplesauce we don't know what space is there as \section is not defined by latex, it is just defined by the documentclass 9which you have not said which you sue)

Tell me what a document class is

@JohnnyApplesauce \section sounds like a rather large unit for a question.

I'm using overleaf

@JohnnyApplesauce \documentclass{wibble} <<<<<- that

article

That's the document class

@JohnnyApplesauce I'm working at Overleaf :-)

@JohnnyApplesauce there are lots of document classes specific to questions eg exam but \begin{enumerate} \item (Bonus} might be what you want, hard to know really.

By the way, how do you have two items with a wide space between them on the same line?

Like:

"Here's the first drawing Here's the second:"

@JohnnyApplesauce a\hfill b or a\hspace{3cm}b

...

Ah, thanks!

@UlrikeFischer I'll wait for the answer from the OP - - @UlrikeFischer, the idea is that the correct output is the one from the screen shots posted there. At least I think.

And I definitely need to learn how to have a private TeXlive for an user... So that I can check new version on my computer.

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@DavidCarlisle I subscribed to the mailing list. :)

@PauloCereda you can subscribe to the committee list? that seems.... strange

@DavidCarlisle the public one?

@DavidCarlisle [uktug-committee-public]

@PauloCereda take this offline

@DavidCarlisle hm?

Happy NASA Halloween:

@yo' ooh

@DavidCarlisle, @HaraldHanche-Olsen, @JosephWright, well, thank you.

@PauloCereda pinged in google chat

is there a way to explicitly allow a float to split a preceeding paragraph to fit on a page?

[h] will make it jump to the top of the next page and [b] to the bottom of the next one

@sollniss ? just move it earlier in the source? the only way latex can move a float backwards is to go to the top of the current page (which [h] and [b] both prevent of course.

@DavidCarlisle actually i think my [b] is broken. using [b] puts the float at the very end of the document

@DavidCarlisle so moving it earlier in the source does not change anything with [b], and with [h] the float will have text around it which i don't want

@sollniss by default a float can go to the bottom only if it is not larger than 30% of the page. You can change \bottomfraction to enlarge this. See tex.stackexchange.com/questions/39017/…

@sollniss that is the most likely result of [b] it means not here not at the top of a page and not on a page on its own, which doesn't give latex many chances to put it anywhere, and by default bottomfraction is .3 so if teh image is more than 30% of the text height it will go to teh end of the document as it can not be placed anywhere

@UlrikeFischer oh ok, yea the float is much bigger than that

@UlrikeFischer I was writing that:-)

@DavidCarlisle so slow ;-)

@UlrikeFischer eloquence comes at a price

@DavidCarlisle -- I think that goes in the category of "a penny for your thoughts".

are there any styleguides that forbid big figures at the bottom or why is this value so low by default?

@sollniss at top is more common and in fact with the default settings where t and b are both allowed, b is hardly ever taken as latex tries top first,

@DavidCarlisle finished xor?

@yo' I finished working on it around 2000 if it's not finished enough for public use blame @JosephWright

@DavidCarlisle hm, might just be me, but i don't like when a figure appears before the corresponding section begins

@sollniss then use \suppressfloats[t] in pages with a section heading

@sollniss well, it would make sense to have "float placement dividers" that could be forward only or complete. We can ask the LaTeX team to add it :-)

@sollniss more generally if you use the flafter package (part of the core distribution) floats never float backwards so you can use the [tbhp] and it will be allowed on top of later pages but never float up to the top of the current page into an earlier section

@DavidCarlisle that's pretty useful, thanks

@sollniss that package is as old as latex2e:-)

@MarcelKrüger the difference are really quite striking ;-) with graphite2 the glyph huddles together:

@UlrikeFischer the deed is done

@DavidCarlisle I saw the mail, lots of changes. Let's hope that every works as expected ...

@UlrikeFischer now back to filenames and PL2... (but I'll wait to see if that lot gets past Petra first:-)

@JosephWright just noticed that \use_none_delimit_by_s_stop:w isn't marked as expandable in interface3.pdf.

@UlrikeFischer I assume the bottom one is basically unreadable if you can read this stuff at all

@DavidCarlisle anything that I can do to help?

@UlrikeFischer not really, I have a branch half done but I got sidetracked with oberdiek tests last couple of nights. Having stubbed out hobsub splitting oberdiek is easier now so I think each time we do anything there we should split out the package I nearly did that for grffile tonight but decided to keep that update focussed on iftex, as you saw that was already a lot of changes to ask ctan to do,

@DavidCarlisle I have no idea ;-). It looks like it, but then how can people read scripts that build such glyph monsters?

@UlrikeFischer same way people can read hybrid scripts that slot squished Greek betas in inappropriate places in the Latin alphabet, probably.

@DavidCarlisle ;-). I see that ifpdf.dtx is still in oberdiek. Should it at some time "disappear"?

@UlrikeFischer yes I left in all the dtx for now (I noted that in the internal notes to ctan) as I say I think next time round we should split the whole thing up anyway.

@DavidCarlisle l3build install does nothing in iftex ;-(.

@UlrikeFischer how did it get here then? /home/davidc/texmf/tex/generic/iftex/iftex.sty

@DavidCarlisle oh generic ;-)

@UlrikeFischer loads in initex, even:-)

@UlrikeFischer yes but it should work with the new, or at least it did when I tried it yesterday...

@UlrikeFischer it was that that convinced me to disable hobsub. as hperref loads Will's ifxetex which (now) loads iftex so defines all of them then hobsub loaded its internal version of ifvtex which errors as ifvtex is defined, it would have been fixable but....

@DavidCarlisle I had force to the deinstallation of the original oberdiek, but without it is compiles. iftex is an update not a new package right? That should avoid a number of problems with miktex.

@UlrikeFischer yes both updates

@DavidCarlisle that's good, but we will probably have to give a number of "run updates in both modes" answers ;-)

@UlrikeFischer more rep for you...

@UlrikeFischer does Christian realise just how often that causes issues?

@DavidCarlisle well I opened an issue once and he added some interface github.com/MiKTeX/miktex/issues/262. But as I don't have such an installation I don't know how well it works. I think they are less frequent now.

@DavidCarlisle Exciting times with TeX engine tests ;)

@JosephWright by far the hardest part was extracting ifluatex and ifvtex from oberdiek, lost at least a couple of days over that:(

@DavidCarlisle but you got rid of hobsub ...

@UlrikeFischer well it's still distributed but not quite as it was

@DavidCarlisle is it? I see no hobsub file in the folder, and hyperref doesn't load it.

@UlrikeFischer no rush to re-release hyperref but assuming this release goes out OK, I think I'll adjust the hyperref sources not to use hobsub

@UlrikeFischer hobsub-hyperref.sty

@UlrikeFischer hobsub-hyperref.sty is used by one more package than hobsub-generic.sty in my search of the texlive tree

@DavidCarlisle I have no hobsub-hyperref.sty after I uninstalled oberdiek.

@UlrikeFischer how did you install oberdiek (you need to use the mkctan bash script, not l3build)

@UlrikeFischer vvv

$ git log hobsub-hyperref.sty
commit 259becab29a03ef232be8f0ec6fda81f00b99035
Author: David Carlisle <>
Date:   Sun Oct 27 20:26:12 2019 +0000

    stub hobsub packages

@DavidCarlisle with l3build. Which package does use hobsub? In the latex tree I found only hyperref.

@DavidCarlisle ;-). And this one more package uses \IfFileExists{hobsub-hyperref.sty} so it is not a problem to get rid of it completly.

@UlrikeFischer l3build was not capable of making a oberdiek tds tree as its heuristics for what goes in generic or luatex or latex tds trees, @JosephWright added a tds-mapping feature the other day to address that but I haven't used it on this yet and anyway just splitting it up seems better so I made teh zip files with mkctan as before

@UlrikeFischer that's the plan, but for now I include a simple package that RequirePackage all the parts, so it does not try to concatenate them or need the sources to build.

Happy CTAN-is-annoying day everyone!