@HeikoOberdiek In an answer, you mention creating a package called refmathstyle and putting it up on CTAN, except that answer is now 3 years old and the package still isn't on CTAN. Do you think you'll put it up at some point? Or have you since decided against that?

New fontspec package uploaded, with the TU font encoding enabled by default… let the bug reports roll in!!

@DavidCarlisle, @WillRobertson Barring objections, I'll update CTAN today or first thing tomorrow

I am back! :)

@PauloCereda :-)

@JosephWright <3

@egreg: Hi! What did I miss? :)

@PauloCereda Everything is RED!

@JosephWright Oh no!

@Johannes_B With liver?

@JosephWright quick: update before there are any objections:-)

@DavidCarlisle I've already got an objection that switching to TU is too hasty :)

@WillRobertson we could restart the debate on that, that should be fun

@DavidCarlisle Oh good idea!

@WillRobertson should we tell @egreg that Unicode have spotted him?

@DavidCarlisle It is a novel idea to consult with mathematics professors on mathematics notation :)

@WillRobertson shame they picked such an unreliable one.

@DavidCarlisle I've blamed you and Joseph for egging me on. Better to "rip the bandaid off" so to speak

@WillRobertson for sans greek do you think that's the plan: request that sans, sans italic, bold sans, bold sans italic math alphabets all have identical coverage?

@DavidCarlisle I don't know — if it were me making the decision, that would be the only logical option. But if that diminishes the chances of success, we could pull back a little. nabla and partial in particular would cause troublesome if they pushed for evidence.

@DavidCarlisle But again, why have partial and nabla in bold sans and not sans?

@WillRobertson I think the initial position should be that we show evidence of the alphabets and that requiring evidence of each symbol is unreasonable, and that the alphabets should be the same for making reasonable documentation and interface reasons

@DavidCarlisle Right — after all, they couldn't have had evidence of the lain-like capital greek symbols could they? Although I guess they could actually be used by Greek mathematicians.

it's notable for emoji they add characters because they think people want to be able express certain things that way they can't now (after the initial merge of the japanese phone character sets) show any existing use of new emoji

@DavidCarlisle Exactly. We shouldn't even have to justify it, IMO :)

@WillRobertson well I'm hoping we get to input text to the draft proposal rather than just agreeing to putting name to it, we'll see....

The big problem with sans nabla is that \bigtriangledown already exists… but I guess they could be drawn quite differently

@DavidCarlisle that would be nice :)

Gotta go — catch you later tonight perhaps

@WillRobertson bye

Quack!

So, do you guys know how to properly set a newcommand to have proper spacing before/after?

@Alenanno Use % to hide the spaces inside.

@Alenanno You could also use the xspace-package. But beware! It introduces more problems, than it solves. It is still easier to type \macro\ or \macro{} instead.

@PauloCereda Hi Paulo!

@PauloCereda When will arara 4.0 hit CTAN? I finally want to ditch latexmk.

@HenriMenke Hi Henri! :)

@HenriMenke I wish I had the answer. :( Right now, I am stuck with my thesis writing, so arara is on hold right now.

@PauloCereda Ahh, good old thesis :) Me too.

@PauloCereda Good luck then!

@HenriMenke :)

@HenriMenke Thank you, you too! :)

Then we will have the greatest version ever. :)

@PauloCereda I'm looking forward to it.

@HenriMenke <3

oopsie :)

@PauloCereda How do you like the new red design of TeX.SX?

@HenriMenke Not a fan, to be honest. :)

@PauloCereda Actually, I like it. It matches the site logo and makes it more consistent.

@HenriMenke ooh. :) At least they removed the bold thingy. :)

@Alenanno that's like asking how to have a newcommand that has the proper words before and after. If the text before and after the command is wrong the problem probably isn't in the command:-)

@HenriMenke the week after latex3

@DavidCarlisle Please, tell me!

@egreg I'll forward some mail

@egreg sent you a small sample of current thread:-)

@WillRobertson -- bold italic sans serif caps are required (by the si rules) for tensors. murray is a physicist. he has probably seen greek caps used in that context.

I have some info that contains all sorts of characters that I wanted to put into a table. I wanted to use the verbatim env for this to display the info properly but I can't wrap it. Googling sends me to a post that says use listings if verbatim is wanted with wrapping, but this doesn't work as it reads the `` chars as line breaks. Whats the best approach to this?

@baxx Maybe \verb?

@egreg cheers - is that used as {\verb stuff }

@baxx \verb|<stuff>| but the | can be any character not inside <stuff>

that's tricky as I don't know for sure what's in and not... it's got loads of stuff

I don't think that will work for this info - it needs to be a definite environment such as verbatim but with wrapping i think... but that won't pick up line breaks :?

\verb doesn't wrap either in a table

created a question here - tex.stackexchange.com/questions/290227/…

@DavidCarlisle I see you've gone for a 'modern' answer: tex.stackexchange.com/a/290230/73

@JosephWright I was rather proud of it

@DavidCarlisle :-)

@DavidCarlisle Regarding your comment: \- prevents the hyphenation of the following word, right? Wouldn't then be something like \nobreak-\hskip0pt be better?

Also, why is \- primitive and not \defed to be \discretionary{-}{}{}?

@HenriMenke well \- is intended for exactly that use.

@HenriMenke in latex it is a macro (I can't recall why that was done)

@HenriMenke ah yes:

% \begin{macro}{\-}
% \changes{1.2x}{1995/12/13}{Documentation changed.}
%  The following comment was added when these commands were first set
%  up, 19 April 1986:
%  the |\-| command is redefined to allow it to work in the |\ttfamily|
%  type style, where automatic hyphenation is suppressed by setting
%  |\hyphenchar| to~$-1$. The original primitive \TeX{} definition is
%  saved as |\@@hyph| just in case anyone needs it.
%
%  There is a need for a robust command for a discretionary hyphen
%  since its exact representation depends on the glyphs available in

@DavidCarlisle Thank you. That is really useful to know.

@HenriMenke funny comment just after that;-) just shows it is hard to predict the future:-)

@DavidCarlisle Ooh, quote it

%  The redefinition (via |\let|) of |\-| within tabbing also makes the
%  use of a robust command advisable since then any redefinition
%  of |\-| via |\DeclareRobustCommand| will not cause a conflict.
%
%  Therefore, macro writers should be hereby warned that
%  these internals will probably change! It is likely that a future
%  release of \LaTeX{} will make |\-| effectively an encoding specific
%  text command.

@DavidCarlisle I'm reading all of the hyphenation set up in hyph-utf8 :-)

@DavidCarlisle Well it's possibly funny to you and me (in light of current discussions)

@JosephWright I bet it's not as much fun as reading ltdefns.dtx

@JosephWright Chris I would guess, from the style.

@DavidCarlisle Yes, sounds right

@JosephWright we don't use be hereby up north:-)

@DavidCarlisle Is this comment also from 1995? Because then we should be worrying, since the future is now!

@HenriMenke yes

@HenriMenke 1995 is in TeX terms 'relatively recently' :-)

@HenriMenke Remember LaTeX needs to work with 2.09 documents, so really anything from the early 1980s onward

@JosephWright Internals will probably change? Bah, nonsense. :)

@PauloCereda True :) If L3 ideas had been usable in the mid 1990s things would be different

@JosephWright ooh

@ChristianHupfer No, not with liver, with sand.

Can anybody make sense of latex-community.org/forum/…?

@WillRobertson so current plan is tu off by default, opt in with [tuenc] ?

@Johannes_B No

@Johannes_B I would guess OP looking for \hspace*

@DavidCarlisle I was thinking of hspace and hspace* as well, but ...

@Johannes_B well they show hspace and ask for something that works in all circumstances and that, more or less, is what hspace* does.

@DavidCarlisle Discovering various issues with hyphenation and 8-bit engines :-)

@JosephWright ?

@DavidCarlisle Look at the set up for Italian, for example

@JosephWright the wacky ' stuff?

@DavidCarlisle Yes

@DavidCarlisle Point being that Italian isn't quite covered by T1 so it's not quite right with an 8-bit engine

@JosephWright they should speak english :-)

@JosephWright don't you have same problem with ' being included as a letter or not also in xetex?

@DavidCarlisle No, it's not about it being a letter, it's about whether you can sort out the \lccode for a single octet in an 8-bit engine

@JosephWright well I meant lccode rather than catcode

@DavidCarlisle I guessed that

@DavidCarlisle There's \savinghyphencodes anyway, but I think babel simply switches the \lccode values along with the \language

@DavidCarlisle Expect some notes on the team list this evening

@DavidCarlisle I've now read all of the hyphenation loaders!

@JosephWright that's what I remember (although some years since I looked)

@JosephWright even in utf8 form?

@DavidCarlisle Like I say, notes coming up with I hope some vaguely-sensible proposals

@JosephWright OK

@DavidCarlisle Indeed: hyph-utf8 means that almost all of the patterns are the same between UTF-8 and 8-bit engines with some 'tricker' (though the quote business is separated out)

@DavidCarlisle A lot of the patterns are I suspect in need of further work

@JosephWright I wonder if google know what they are asking for:-)

@DavidCarlisle I think not

@DavidCarlisle Did you see the message about the Dutch patterns?

@DavidCarlisle The worse situation is German, where there are a load of legacy versions that I suspect should be killed off

@JosephWright no I'm not on the list I read the licence thread on the archives, I could look ...

@DavidCarlisle I'll track it down

@DavidCarlisle tug.org/mailman/htdig/tex-hyphen/2016-January/001350.html

@JosephWright yes thanks we just reading that:-) I see LPPL not being crystal clear also pops up again on that list

@DavidCarlisle Yes

@DavidCarlisle I can't disagree about the LPPL (if I'd been involved in the discussion I'd have pushed for something rather different)

@JosephWright no, if you'd have been involved in the discussion you'd have been glad to have got something that ended it:-)

@DavidCarlisle You misunderstand me: I'm not convinced the starting point was that realistic

@JosephWright still wouldn't be impossible to have a simpler 1.4, perhaps, but not sure it's worth the trouble.

@DavidCarlisle One for an email discussion ;-)

@JosephWright we wrote this but you can do what you like with it would work for me.

in Paris(ian suburb)

@yo' Cool

@yo' -- glad you got there safely. get some good sleep, and wow 'em!

@barbarabeeton still two days to go, remember :)

@yo' -- yes, but save your energy for the celebrations afterward. (i know you'll do just fine.)

@barbarabeeton I will. We managed to start very early and drive quite fast (no jams, just some here in Paris). I'll just finish the slides and I'm off to bed you know :) Also, tomorrow we go visit some friends here in Paris, so we'll have a nice time :)

fortunately we didn't bring any cream with us; it would have become butter ... :D

@egreg felt obliged to vote since I'd asked:(

@DavidCarlisle After checking I'm rep capped, of course.

@egreg no, I didn't but thanks for letting me know: that is a small consolation.

@DavidCarlisle Be careful: your nose could damage the computer screen.

@egreg hey for once I was telling the truth

@DavidCarlisle Remember Epimenides?

@JosephWright @WillRobertson we could get each team member to answer this and people could play "spot the difference"

@DavidCarlisle :-)

@egreg I'm not as old as you

btw, why are the syntax highlighted delimiters red now?!

@yo' probably the meta question that links don't show triggered a redesign links are red as well as brackets...

@egreg ah

@egreg as usual you get your answers from my comments, I see

@DavidCarlisle I used a better name

@egreg mine is more consistent camel case belongs elsewhere

Do we have a question explicitly explaining why \\ should not be used to end a paragraph? It would be helpful to point the guy who wants LaTeX to solve his bad source code problem for him.

@AlanMunn There is tex.stackexchange.com/questions/82664/when-to-use-par-and-when

Also tex.stackexchange.com/questions/51722/…

@egreg This one could have a much more helpful title I suspect. But the last one you posted is the best for this particular purpose.

@egreg @DavidCarlisle Ringing praise! "u guys seem to be rather right." tex.stackexchange.com/questions/290258/…

@AlanMunn :-)

@DavidCarlisle With a combined reputation of the commenters at almost a million, you'd thing that would tell you something.

@AlanMunn I have no faith in rep as an indication of accuracy, look who's got the most!

@barbarabeeton 51,1˛15

@DavidCarlisle 'Wall of text' mail coming up!

@JosephWright ok...

@JosephWright what's ptex missing that it can't do the 8bit conversion on the fly?