TeX, LaTeX and Friends - 2014-12-25 (page 1 of 2)

egreg

00:11

@PauloCereda Just back from midnight Mass. :)

cfr

03:25

@PauloCereda Nadolig Llawen!

Johannes_B

08:36

@1010011010 What are you trying to achieve? I would take a look at tocbasic and tocstyle but i can't show you an example without knowing the purpose.

Paulo Cereda

@egreg Yay! :) Did they sing Adeste Fideles? :)

@cfr Merry Christmas!

Paulo Cereda

09:07

Hm... Dec 25 = Oct 31, so... Happy Halloween?

:)

1010011010

09:22

@Johannes_B Ha, basically, a MiniTOC for each chapter, and a "main TOC" in addition, but containing only the sections of the document. Both need a style different than the default output, so the more easily customizable package definitely has preference.

Johannes_B

@1010011010 package etoc?

wendy.krieger

It's quiet in here. A MiniTOC sounds like something you could stick at the beginning of a chapter, or in a mini-page somewhere.

Joseph Wright

@wendy.krieger It is

Johannes_B

@1010011010 etoc makes the minitoc and styles them themself. tocbasic creates toc, tocstyle styles tocs.

wendy.krieger

I must play with it one day.

Joseph Wright

09:28

@wendy.krieger Famously, the minitoc docs have a rather bonkers manual (which we are stuck with as the package author is no longer with us)

1010011010

Sounds pretty good. I had a titletoc thing going, but couldn't get the right style in for the miniTOC. I'll experiment a little. Thanks.

Johannes_B

@JosephWright I still think the Improvements of LaTeX over Word question is too-broad/opinion-based.

wendy.krieger

I mainly watch this site to learn TeX.

Paulo Cereda

I shall silly walk to the morning mass! :)

@JosephWright I was making a lot of noise. :)

Joseph Wright

@wendy.krieger I don't like the question but this is one for the community as a whole not just the mods

@wendy.krieger Good plan

@PauloCereda Yes: Happy Christmas

Paulo Cereda

09:32

@JosephWright Happy Christmas, Joseph! :)

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda Did you go to midnight mass?

Brent.Longborough

@Johannes_B Hi, Johannes. I must confess, I was trolling a bit. I recognise that my preference for memoir is basically an historical accident. :-)

Paulo Cereda

@egreg: someone sent me this link: youtube.com/watch?v=Pi9RJIIK1p0 I LOL'ed at il ministero delle camminate beote. :)

@JosephWright Yep, I did. Incidentally, it started earlier. :P

wendy.krieger

Even just the questions on tex.se. It's really interesting. Sometimes i help out a bit.

Johannes_B

@Brent.Longborough I know ;-) I have an author-signed copy of the KOMA-script book at home, so i am a bit biased as well :-)

Paulo Cereda

09:35

@Brent: Hello Brent! :) How do you like our new info box for the new arara manual? i.sstatic.net/k4SlB.png Of course (and much to my dismay, because I'm now a KOMA konverted) we use memoir. :)

Johannes_B

@wendy.krieger Most important thing when reading and following here a bit: You are up to date. When something changed, the guys here are the first to know. See tex.stackexchange.com/a/203743/37907

Paulo Cereda

@Johannes_B arara seems quite popular amongst Germans (including our own team), so I think I'm also biased to use KOMA as well. :)

Johannes_B

@PauloCereda I think @cis is not a KOMA-user. :-)

@PauloCereda And i am not an arara user :-p

Paulo Cereda

@Johannes_B /sob

My Christmas is ruined. /sob

Johannes_B

@PauloCereda Ohh :-(

@PauloCereda Smile little duckling :-)

Paulo Cereda

09:38

@Johannes_B There better be cookies!

wendy.krieger

What means 'KOMA'

Paulo Cereda

@wendy.krieger You mean the acronym? I have absolutely no idea. :)

I mean, if it's an acronym. :)

Johannes_B

@wendy.krieger KOMA-script is an (heavy) extension to the standard classes including some packages that can be used separately as well. Comparable with memoir. The author is Markus Kohm.

wendy.krieger

as in KOMA-user. Is KOMA a program thingie?

1010011010

@Johannes_B +1. But I can't close vote. I'm rep-less:-(

wendy.krieger

09:40

Ok, i get it now.

Johannes_B

@wendy.krieger Please compare the answers here tex.stackexchange.com/questions/39988/…

Paulo Cereda

KOMA = Kartoffel On Meine Arme.

3

1010011010

And merry Christmas to all of you:-)

Joseph Wright

@1010011010 Raise on meta

Paulo Cereda

Hey who starred that? :)

@1010011010 Merry Christmas!

Johannes_B

09:41

@PauloCereda I want a shirt with that printed on :-D

Paulo Cereda

@Johannes_B LOL

Johannes_B

@PauloCereda guess who? ;-)

@PauloCereda Ich mache Kartoffelsalat.

Paulo Cereda

@Johannes_B ooh I got that one! :)

ooh so KOMA is KOhm MArkus magnum opus. :)

wendy.krieger

Ok. I might look at it one day. I'm pretty new at this stuff, though.

I'm always on the lookout for something for the Polygloss.

1010011010

@JosephWright I might. I liked how you described the minitoc manual so I gave it a look. Most extensive manual ever, barring tikz of course.

egreg

10:29

@PauloCereda It's difficult to translate silly. Nice video!

18

Q: How can I not hurt my fingers when using a hammer

Whenever I ever have to hammer a nail into something (the wall for a picture mount, a piece of wood for a project, etc.) I hurt my fingers when I slam the hammer against the nail. Even when I don't hit my fingers, I'm scared that I will. I've tried being more careful by not slamming as hard and ...

Paulo Cereda

@egreg It's indeed difficult. :)

@egreg Is use emacs a valid answer? :)

egreg

10:53

@PauloCereda Certainly so!

Paulo Cereda

@egreg @David could harvest some rep there! :)

egreg

@PauloCereda M-x drive-nail

Paulo Cereda

@egreg [no match]

Wait a minute, we could use this to lit the oven! :)

egreg

@PauloCereda M-x cook-lasagna

Paulo Cereda

@egreg ooh yes! Mom is in the kitchen preparing it. :)

With spinach. :)

egreg

11:02

@PauloCereda Tortellini in brodo, cappone e manzo lessi, faraona arrosto, cotechino.

Paulo Cereda

@egreg If I catch a plane now, do I arrive in time? :)

egreg

@PauloCereda You may try.

Paulo Cereda

@egreg But what if they try to give me airplane food? :)

Worse, now Brazilian companies charge for onboard stuff. :)

egreg

@PauloCereda Ask Scotty to bring you here.

@PauloCereda “Scotty, beam me up”

Paulo Cereda

@egreg good plan! :)

Frank Mittelbach

12:07

@wendy.krieger @PauloCereda it means "Kohm, Markus" the name of its author

oh well you found it later :-)

Paulo Cereda

@FrankMittelbach :)

Germans <3

Whatcha having for Christmas, @Frank? :)

Frank Mittelbach

@PauloCereda what's that supposed to mean?

Paulo Cereda

@FrankMittelbach I wanna be German.

:)

You got that <3 is a heart, right? :)

Frank Mittelbach

@PauloCereda let me see ... and old iPhone to replace my even older Nokia

Paulo Cereda

@FrankMittelbach Uh-oh, welcome to battery hell. :) Nothing can't beat the lifetime of an old Nokia battery. :)

Frank Mittelbach

12:11

@PauloCereda sure .. but my nikia is about 10 years old (though battery is still ok) it goes dead on the buttons ... often generating the number 3 times etc ... that's no fun either

Paulo Cereda

@FrankMittelbach \usepackage[onlykeys]{fixnokia} :)

My old Samsung died the very same way.

Frank Mittelbach

anyway ... a new board game (we Germans love to play board games) ... some books

and you?

Paulo Cereda

@FrankMittelbach How nice! :)

Frank Mittelbach

@PauloCereda I'm off cooking ..take care

Paulo Cereda

@FrankMittelbach I got a couple of books (it's quite amusing, typography books from Tschichold and Bringhurst actually translated to Portuguese!) from a sales discount offer from the publisher (apparently no Brazilian cares about typography), and that pretty much it. :) I'm still waiting for my brand new Dell workstation to replace my good old computer, but they haven't delivered it yet (I'm waiting since Dec 4th). :)

@FrankMittelbach ooh have fun! :)

Argo

13:18

Let's say I have some lines drawn with tikz. Is it posible to combine scale and minimum height?

What I'm trying to do it to vertically center a tikzpicture inside a cell in a tabular environment

Here's the table: pastebin.com/Wvvv94Yh

Paulo Cereda

@Argo: Merry Christmas! :)

@AlanMunn: Merry Christmas, Alan!

Argo

@PauloCereda And merry christmas to you!

Wait... I'm doing latex in my holiday... What have I become?!?

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda Merry Christmas Paulo!

egreg

14:00

My “pranzo di Natale” is coming to end. :)

cfr

15:40

@Johannes_B I agree. I also think it invites controversial answers. And I will continue to think it a bad question in its current form no matter how many votes it gets!

egreg

@cfr Buon Natale!

cfr

@egreg Diolch. And once again, Nadolig llawen!

egreg

@cfr Should we learn Welsh?

cfr

@egreg Well, they say it's the language of heaven so, depending on your belief system, it might be as well to be prepared. I've learnt it, so it can't be that hard. (It is not my first language though I did start learning it as a child.) The 'll's are what kill English speakers. That and mutations. Well, mutations are a pain even for native speakers often, too.

I don't know why they find 'll's so difficult...

;)

Have to go open/give presents...

Paulo Cereda

16:10

@cfr Yay presents!

Alan Munn

16:22

@cfr Sorry I didn't include Welsh in my merry Christmas list, but I only did languages I know (a smattering of). :)

Christian Hupfer

Merry Christmas to everybody who celebrates it ...

Faheem Mitha

Basic LaTeX question (probably). I have the following LaTeX file.

\documentclass{article}

\begin{document}

\begin{enumerate}
\item\label{foo1} foo
\item\label{foo2} bar
\end{enumerate}

This is \ref{foo1} and \ref{foo2}.

\end{document}

bar.aux has

\relax
\newlabel{foo1}{{1}{1}}
\newlabel{foo2}{{2}{1}}

Christian Hupfer

@FaheemMitha: What's the question?

Faheem Mitha

Now, I know foo1 gets swapped out for 1, and foo2 gets swapped out for 2. what is the final 1 for?

(as in {{1}{1}} and {{2}{1}})

Christian Hupfer

@FaheemMitha: I think, it's the page

Faheem Mitha

16:34

@ChristianHupfer Oh, hmm. Let me check. Thanks.

Christian Hupfer

@FaheemMitha: Yes, it's the page number where the label appears

Faheem Mitha

@ChristianHupfer Thanks

Paulo Cereda

@ChristianHupfer Merry Christmas!

egreg

@FaheemMitha With \ref{foo1} the first item is used, with \pageref{foo1} the second item is used. The first item is indeed the counter's value, the second item the page where \label appears.

Faheem Mitha

@egreg I see. Thanks. I've never heard of \pageref. This doesn't agree with an example I just tried, though.

\documentclass{article}

\begin{document}

\begin{enumerate}
\item\label{foo1} foo
\item\label{foo2} bar
\item\label{foo3} baz
\end{enumerate}

This is \ref{foo1} and \ref{foo2}.

\newpage

This is \ref{foo3}.

\end{document}

I get for aux:

\relax
\newlabel{foo1}{{1}{1}}
\newlabel{foo2}{{2}{1}}
\newlabel{foo3}{{3}{1}}

All 1's.

egreg

16:50

@FaheemMitha They're all on the same page, aren't they?

Faheem Mitha

@egreg They are? I did a newpage. One sec.

Oh, where label appears. Sorry.

Paulo Cereda

@FaheemMitha They are all typeset in the same page, that's what egreg meant.

Alan Munn

@FaheemMitha The \refs can be anywhere in the document. What matters is the page the \labels are on...

Faheem Mitha

@PauloCereda Yes, I got it. Sorry, I'm slow.

@AlanMunn Yes, I see.

Paulo Cereda

@FaheemMitha No worries. ;)

Alan Munn

16:53

Apropos to my crossword puzzle answer, I don't even like crosswords or actually do them, but the cwpuzzle package is absolutely amazing.

egreg

@AlanMunn Really!

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn Wheel of fortune, then? :)

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda You're talking to a man without a TV.

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn Oh no!

Alan Munn

@egreg Not only can it produce all sorts of variations of crossword type puzzles, it can also create sudoku and other grid like puzzles I've never even heard of. And the input syntax is really quite clever and elegant.

@PauloCereda Which doesn't mean I don't watch any, but only things that I can get on Netflix and Hulu.

Paulo Cereda

16:59

@AlanMunn hitech boy. :)

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda Says the guy with an Apple TV.

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn But without my workstation. :(

Alan Munn

On a separate note, be on the lookout for this. Let's combine it with fncychap for the trifecta.

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn: on a more serious question: do you know any "unusual" dialect to help us translate arara messages? We will have some easter eggs, like a cool dialect from Norfolk, courtesy of Nicola. :)

@AlanMunn LOL

@AlanMunn Add underlining support and we will have the knights of the apocalypse. :)

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda I know no unusual dialects. :(

egreg

17:08

Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (film)

For the 1921 film version, see The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (film). The 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse is a 1962 drama film loosely based on the novel by Vicente Blasco Ibáñez. It was directed by Vincente Minnelli and starred Glenn Ford, Ingrid Thulin, Charles Boyer, Lee J. Cobb, Paul Lukas, Yvette Mimieux, Karlheinz Böhm, and Paul Henreid. == Story == For this adaptation of the book, the time was changed from World War I to World War II. == Cast == Glenn Ford: Julio Desnoyers Ingrid Thulin: Marguerite Laurier Charles Boyer: Marcelo Desnoyers Yvette Mimieux: Chi-Chi Lee J. Cobb: Madariaga...

Paulo Cereda

@egreg ooh! :)

@AlanMunn No worries. :) We could have some "Excessive polite Canadian English". :)

egreg

@PauloCereda Or the first version with Rudy Valentino!

The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (film)

The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (1921) is an American silent epic war film produced by Metro Pictures Corporation and directed by Rex Ingram. Based on the Spanish novel The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse by Vicente Blasco Ibáñez, it was adapted for the screen by June Mathis. The film stars Pomeroy Cannon, Josef Swickard, Bridgetta Clark, Rudolph Valentino, Wallace Beery, and Alice Terry. The film had a huge cultural impact, becoming the top-grossing film of 1921, beating out Charlie Chaplin's The Kid, and going on to become the sixth-best-grossing silent film of all time. The film turned then...

Paulo Cereda

@egreg Wow!

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda Well maybe you could add a cryptic message like "Don't put your toque in the garburator."

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn LOL

@egreg: we could ask @cfr about Welsh support. :)

Alan Munn

17:16

@PauloCereda I wonder how Google Translate would deal with that...

egreg

@PauloCereda And Harish for a couple of Indian languages.

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn: Mas bah, não é que tu informou uma diretiva que não existe?

egreg

@AlanMunn gallem ofyn i @cfr am gymorth yng Nghymru.

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda It's actually perfectly good advice.

Paulo Cereda

@egreg Stop pressing random keys in your keyboard. :)

egreg

17:18

@PauloCereda I was giving a try to vim and trying to escape

cfr

@AlanMunn Sorry - I missed your Christmas list. (What Christmas list?)

Alan Munn

@cfr Just a message in chat. It has a couple of stars right now (just Merry Christmas in languages I know and that are spoken by folk here.)

cfr

@egreg Somebody in Wales needs help? Any particular part of Wales or just generally?

@AlanMunn Ah, I see it. Breton is very similar, if that helps.

egreg

@cfr Just a test of Google Translate ability. ;)

cfr

@AlanMunn Where is the cwpuzzle package? I searched CTAN and found a topic page listing 2 other packages but no package by that name...

Paulo Cereda

17:28

@egreg That explains it. :)

Alan Munn

@cfr No, I know no Celtic languages at all, although I know a bit about them. I have a problem set for one of my courses that deals with Welsh, in fact.

cfr

@egreg There is supposed to be an improved version you can get if you use Office 365. I'm not altogether sure why the Welsh Language Board didn't help improve the Google version instead. (My university tells English speakers to use it if they receive emails in Welsh but not to use it to reply!)

Alan Munn

@cfr It's in my TeX Live distribution. I didn't download it specially.

cfr

@AlanMunn Ah. I see the crossword package includes it. The documentation did look very interesting (I just didn't realise the style file was cwpuzzle). What do you teach that you have a problem set dealing with a language you don't know?

Nadolig llawn i bawb o Gymru!

Alan Munn

@cfr I'm a linguist. It's what we do. :) We're interested in properties of languages generally, and certain languages are good for demonstrating certain properties. So in this case the problem is about the word order of elements in the noun phrase in Welsh. (I do syntax.)

cfr

17:53

@AlanMunn Ah, makes sense. Philosophy of language intersects with linguistics, though it is not my area.

Alan Munn

@cfr Yes it does. Are you a philosopher? If so, what do you work on?

cfr

@AlanMunn Moral psychology and ethics, mostly.

Alan Munn

@cfr I see. I just recently met Owen Flanagan. He gave a talk here last month.

cfr

18:15

@AlanMunn Ah, yes. How is Owen?

Alan Munn

@cfr He seemed very fine. We had a nice meeting together and then dinner after the talk.

Brent.Longborough

18:46

@egreg The standard vim way to unconfuse oneself is Ctrl-Alt-Del

Paulo Cereda

@Brent.Longborough oy

:)

egreg

19:06

Back home, the radio is playing the Andante from K467. :) I bet @PauloCereda remembers it. I surely do.

Paulo Cereda

19:33

@egreg Of course. :)

Mozart's piece for your first 100k. :)

Paulo Cereda

19:45

@cfr: ooh you are on Twitter too! :)

Paulo Cereda

21:01

@AlanMunn Don't tell me you listen to Celtic Woman. :)

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda Kind sir, you do offend me so!

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn I'm so sorry, I bow on my knees.

Although I watch them for... aesthetic... reasons. :)

Speaking of Celtic, I always thought we had to say it with a c instead of a k sound. :)

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda Compicated

Paulo Cereda

@JosephWright English is complicated. :P

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda In Celtic Woman it's a hard 'k' sound, in the football club it's a soft 'c'

Paulo Cereda

21:07

@JosephWright Holy cow/kow!

Now I'm getting konfused. :)

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda The closest I get to Irish music is the Pogues. Who so happened to write one of the best Christmas songs ever:

►

But for the true Pogues experience, you need the live version

Joseph Wright

@PauloCereda Gaelic doesn't use 'k' but 'c' for the hard sound ('k') and doesn't feature the soft sound. However, as we read these things in English 'Celtic' for the football club is 'odd'.

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn uh-oh! :)

@JosephWright: I watched it today, it's very nice: youtube.com/watch?v=KnpY46lOTX4

Alan Munn

@JosephWright @PauloCereda And the split goes deep into the history of the Indo-European languages: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum%E2%80%93satem_isogloss

(Obviously not the football/language split... :) )

Joseph Wright

@AlanMunn :-)

Paulo Cereda

21:15

@AlanMunn I'm a poor foreigner with a very limited knowledge. :)

cfr

@PauloCereda I am?

No 'k' in Welsh either. We do have 'ch', though.

Joseph Wright

@cfr Presumably character set coming down from Latin for first writing these languages down

@cfr Or something like that

Johannes_B

21:31

@ChristianHupfer tex.stackexchange.com/a/219480/37907 I don't care about badges ;-)

0

Q: How to control the Bibliography numbered and author year in single command

I am using natbib package. I would like to control bib style in single command \numberedref. My requirement is if the \numberedref command is available in the tex file the output is shown in numbered reference list all citation link should be appeared in numbered. If the command is not available...

cross-referencing

Did i get the intention of the OP right? A simple switch to turn to numbered citation style (if authoryear is default).

Paulo Cereda

21:44

@cfr No? I think I found you. :)

Johannes_B

@AlanMunn I never heard this song before. Pity. Though i have to say, that live version is kinda scary.

STEFS

Hey guys

can i ask sth

Joseph Wright

@STEFS Hello

STEFS

i didnt know which chat room should i join

Johannes_B

@STEFS Hi

STEFS

21:46

my question is "How to prepare for a programming exam?" is this a good site to post my question?

i posted it on programming stack and i was told it was off topic there

Johannes_B

@STEFS I think this depends on the type of person, so it is mostly opinion based.

Paulo Cereda

@STEFS What kind of exam is this?

Johannes_B

@STEFS Or learn for it as you would do for any exam: gather information, learn something, do something. <- too broad

STEFS

no i didnt mean to ask the question in this chat room

i wanted to ask you if it is a suitable quesiton for the site

egreg

@STEFS Sorry, no.

STEFS

21:50

No my question is a more elaborate one, i give give my exact point in a few senteces

@egre

@egreg ok thanks

omg how is it done

@egreg asdf

egreg

@STEFS The site is about TeX and typesetting, not general programming.

STEFS

wait mean

Paulo Cereda

@STEFS: what kind of exam are you taking?

egreg

@STEFS The question seems more suited to a forum.

STEFS

i meant academia stack

isint this chat room part of academia stack

college exam

various type of programming

egreg

21:55

@STEFS I'm afraid it would be rejected also there, because it's just a matter of opinion. There's no general rule about how preparing for exams, apart from “study your lecture notes”, which I'm sure you already know.

@STEFS That's why I think it's more suited to some discussion forum.

STEFS

@egreg well ok thanks but i though academia stack was more "opinion frendly" i.e. what should i study , how should i proceed, which are the best schools etc.

Adam Liter

Is anybody having problems with the new TeX Live infrastructure update? The update keeps failing for me.

STEFS

ok i will leave you to your TeX whatever it is

Joseph Wright

@STEFS You should ask in their chat room, I guess: TeX is somewhat associated with academic work but it's not the same thing

@AdamLiter I'd noticed the same

STEFS

sry for the digression

Paulo Cereda

21:59

@JosephWright Things seem normal at my end.

Adam Liter

@PauloCereda Are you on a Mac? Maybe it's another Yosemite problem?

Paulo Cereda

@STEFS Don't worry, you are always welcome here. :) I asked about your type of exam because, as a programmer, I could point you towards some sort of advice. :)

@AdamLiter Ah. I just updated my Linux boxes. My Mac seems outdated for two weeks, maybe.

Adam Liter

./runme.sh: Cannot find TeX Live root using kpsewhich --var-value=SELFAUTOPARENT.

egreg

@AdamLiter I had the problem with TeX Live Utility; I ran sudo tlmgr update --self from the terminal and all went well.

Adam Liter

That seems to be the problem, if I understand the log correctly.

Paulo Cereda

22:01

Oh in my Mac I never use the GUI thingy; always terminal.

Adam Liter

@egreg @PauloCereda Thanks, I'll just do that. =]

Anybody know if this has been reported, or should I figure out where to do that?

egreg

@AdamLiter github.com/amaxwell/tlutility/issues

@AdamLiter Well, I can do it myself.

Paulo Cereda

@AdamLiter: Oh my, @egreg will use his GitHub account. Things are serious. ^^ :)

Adam Liter

Ha, I'm not sure that I know the background to that joke, @PauloCereda :P Is @egreg not a fan of GitHub?

Paulo Cereda

@AdamLiter His identity is a secret. :)

Adam Liter

22:08

@PauloCereda I see. :P Do you want me to report it, @egreg, so your identity can remain a secret?

Paulo Cereda

@AdamLiter Too late. :)

Adam Liter

@PauloCereda @egreg Just saw that!

egreg

Done: github.com/amaxwell/tlutility/issues/11

Adam Liter

Did you see my email by the way, @PauloCereda?

Thanks @egreg!

Faheem Mitha

I'm trying to make sense of tex.stackexchange.com/a/153878/3406

egreg

22:10

@AdamLiter I've already several comments on GitHub

Faheem Mitha

I get that this changes \ref temporarily to add a marker. Then it checks for the marker when building a table. If it doesn't find a marker for a particular lines it doesn't include that line in the table. But I don't get the details.

First \let\oldref\ref renames \ref to \oldref

Paulo Cereda

@AdamLiter I saw it, thanks! Sorry, I was drowning with work, but things are moving now. :) I'm working in the new manual, and once I get most things done, we will start working on the rules. I will also send an email to our translators and also post a message in c.t.t asking if people want to translate arara to other languages.

Faheem Mitha

Then defines `\ref` as `\def\ref#1{\immediate\write\@auxout{\string\expandafter\gdef\noexpand\csname REF:#1\string\endcsname{}}%
\oldref{#1}}`

Which produces output like -> "\global \@namedef{REF:Hammer003}{}", apparently.

Paulo Cereda

@FaheemMitha You don't rename; you apply the \ref defintion to \oldref, I believe.

Faheem Mitha

Does that look right?

Adam Liter

22:14

@PauloCereda: Isn't @DavidCarlisle supposed to be fluent in every language or something? Can't he just do all the translating? :P

Faheem Mitha

Does \ref remain defined then?

Adam Liter

But no worries. I hear you on the 'drowning with work' bit.

Paulo Cereda

@AdamLiter It's a good plan! :)

egreg

@FaheemMitha Correct; it also calls the normal task normally triggered by \ref, because \oldref{#1} is performed.

Faheem Mitha

and \def overrwrites with no complaint?

If so, naughty.

egreg

22:14

@FaheemMitha Yes. That's why a copy of the old meaning of \ref is kept.

Paulo Cereda

@FaheemMitha Not at all. :)

Faheem Mitha

@PauloCereda Not naughty? Shouldn't it warn the user?

Paulo Cereda

@AdamLiter Would you like to join us in some translation? :) We want to provide some unusual ones, like dialects and maybe some funny ones (leetspeak, piglatin, etc).

Johannes_B

@FaheemMitha That is what newcommand is for. ;-)

egreg

@FaheemMitha During a LaTeX run hundreds of redefinition are performed!

Paulo Cereda

22:16

@FaheemMitha You -- the user -- redefine stuff on your own and you -- the user -- want to be warned about it? :)

Faheem Mitha

@Johannes_B That's LateX, right?

Anyway...

Alan Munn

@Johannes_B Yes, kind of. But that's what the Pogues were like. Rarely sober. But the song is sadly beautiful.

Faheem Mitha

@PauloCereda Yes, I, the user, am a moron.

Johannes_B

@FaheemMitha newcommand raises an error, if a command of that name is already defined. def is not LaTeX, it's for more experiencced guys ;-)

Faheem Mitha

With a short memory. Part of the curse of being human. Anyway, moving on...

Paulo Cereda

22:17

@FaheemMitha We all are. :) I'm moroner. <- @AlanMunn: did you like my correct use of English here? :)

Alan Munn

@PauloCereda It was the bestest.

Adam Liter

@PauloCereda I could probably help a bit with the pig latin one if you'd like. I have to admit that I am not all that fluent in '1337'.

Faheem Mitha

So it sticks a marker in the file, and then only includes a line if it finds the marker.

Adam Liter

Hi @AlanMunn! Hope you're enjoying your break. Are you in Canada now?

Paulo Cereda

@AlanMunn LOL

Faheem Mitha

22:18

This seems to be the function/macro:

\def\zz#1#2{\noalign{%
\expandafter\ifx\csname REF:#1\endcsname\@empty
\def\@currentlabel{#2}\label{#1}%
\else
\aftergroup\zzapline
\fi}#2}

I'm a bit puzzled by the ending #2.

Paulo Cereda

@AdamLiter Any funny bit you want. :) For example, I want a duck language just like the marklar thingy of South Park (nouns are replaced by quacks). :)

Johannes_B

@PauloCereda What sound dou penguins do?

Faheem Mitha

What is seems to do is swap in the second argument instead of including the label itself. Is that right?

Paulo Cereda

►

I regret nothing. :)

Faheem Mitha

Can someone explain in words what -> `\expandafter\ifx\csname REF:#1\endcsname\@empty
\def\@currentlabel{#2}\label{#1}`

does?

egreg

22:21

@FaheemMitha This is trickier. The conditional is true if something like \global \@namedef{REF:Hammer003}{} has been seen in the .aux file. In this case a “mock” counter value is provided via setting \@currentlabel and calling \label, otherwise \zzapline is performed after \noalign is finished.

Paulo Cereda

@MarianoSuárez-Alvarez: Feliz Navidad!

Adam Liter

@PauloCereda Is someone already working (or planning to work) on a pig latin translation? I'd be happy to help out a bit, but I don't know that I will have the time to head anything up on my own. I'm going to have a busy semester next semester, I think. And the duck translation sounds fun!

egreg

@FaheemMitha The \label command uses whatever is the current expansion of \@currentlabel. Usually the meaning of this macro is set by \refstepcounter, but one can set it manually, as in this case.

Faheem Mitha

@PauloCereda That should be -> je regrette rien.

With apologies to French native speakers.

Paulo Cereda

@FaheemMitha I think there's a ne somewhere. :) I used to listen to Edith Piaf. :)

@AdamLiter Don't worry, I'll send ~~a spam~~ an email to everybody. :)

egreg

22:23

@FaheemMitha Non, rien de rien, je ne regrette rien /with Edith Piaf harsh voice

3

Faheem Mitha

@PauloCereda right, the ne is important.

Paulo Cereda

@egreg ooh that one! :)

@FaheemMitha I only know because of the song. :)

Faheem Mitha

@PauloCereda Right, that song.

Paulo Cereda

@egreg Wait for David to show off his French skills. :)

egreg

►

Faheem Mitha

22:24

@egreg so \@currentlabel contains some value at a given time?

egreg

@FaheemMitha Yes, but one usually doesn't count on it, unless after \refstepcounter or manually setting it.

Faheem Mitha

@egreg Ok. Trying to process.

egreg

@FaheemMitha The use of \noalign is a trick for being “outside” the alignment process.

Paulo Cereda

arara 3.0 - L'outil de traitement TeX vraiment cool

@egreg: sounds so classy and fancy! ^^

Faheem Mitha

@egreg Using the second arg instead of the first is an unimportant detail, right?

Johannes_B

22:27

@PauloCereda Oh, that was scary

Faheem Mitha

I mean, in the printed stuff.

egreg

@PauloCereda You should be able to imitate the pronunciation of the r's à la Edith Piaf.

Paulo Cereda

@Johannes_B :)

egreg

@FaheemMitha What second argument?

Paulo Cereda

@egreg R's are my special touch. :)

Faheem Mitha

22:28

@egreg The second arg of \zz.

Paulo Cereda

►

egreg

@FaheemMitha Well, that's what goes in \@currentlabel, to be recorded in the aux file for \newlabel.

With \zz{X}{Y} you'll get \newlabel{X}{{Y}{1}} in the .aux file (where 1 stands for the actual page number).

Adam Liter

@PauloCereda Sounds good. Looking forward to your spam! :P

Paulo Cereda

@AdamLiter aye aye captain! :)

Faheem Mitha

@egreg Not following that. Ok, backing up a second. Of the two args in \zz, the first is the label, right? Not sure what the point of the second is, except to actually insert into the output in the place of the label.

Johannes_B

22:31

@PauloCereda Sir, this is genious artwork.

Faheem Mitha

I don't follow this bit at all -> \def\@currentlabel{#2}\label{#1}

Is this an embedded \def?

Paulo Cereda

@Johannes_B I'm bursting into tears. :P

egreg

@FaheemMitha That sets the current meaning of \@currentlabel, that will be used by \label.

Johannes_B

@PauloCereda What song is this about 3:20 with that guy on the bike? With all this goat scream ...

Faheem Mitha

@egreg Ok, but it is being set to #1, right? What is #2 doing there?

egreg

22:37

@FaheemMitha The label is #1; #2 will be used when \ref is used. With the example above, \ref{X} will print Y

Faheem Mitha

@egreg Could one just toss, #2 and use #1 instead? That is an unnecessary complication, as far as I can see.

egreg

@FaheemMitha It mostly depends on what you want to achieve.

Paulo Cereda

@Johannes_B OK, time for my music skills: David Guetta -- Titanium (youtube.com/watch?v=JRfuAukYTKg) :)

Faheem Mitha

@egreg Sure, but I just want the key/label to be printed, as is, I think. In that case, am I correct in thinking that \zz can be used with just one argument?

egreg

@FaheemMitha Define it with one argument and use #1 where #2 appears in the original.

Faheem Mitha

22:42

@egreg Ok, I'll try that. Thanks.

How many native French speakers here right now?

@egreg That works, thanks.

Johannes_B

@PauloCereda Hm, i think i had some mashup (or a dubstep remix) in my head. Not sure. But david Guetta?

Paulo Cereda

@Johannes_B Sorry. :)

Johannes_B

@PauloCereda Btw: I can't even watch the video. First time GEMA does something good.

Paulo Cereda

@Johannes_B GEMA is my mortal enemy. :)

I can't troll Germans. :)

Johannes_B

@PauloCereda I think i had this in my head:

►

Paulo Cereda

22:50

@Johannes_B Very nice!

egreg

@Johannes_B My best endorphin producer is Mozart.

@Johannes_B But the next expected piece is Haydn, which is very good as well.

Johannes_B

@egreg Think about it: penguin noise, Edith Piaf, Goat noice and now EDM

egreg

@Johannes_B Apart from Edith Piaf, I don't know what you're talking about. :P Oh, a few years ago I paid my visit to Edith at Père Lachaise. And, no, I didn't look for the other famous one who's buried there.

Johannes_B

@egreg Nice (cruel?) thing is, i can switch from Mozart to Twisted Sister to Aimee Mann to the Stones to .... Did someone press the ignore random button in my brain?

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