The Third Stack

Destructible Lemon

00:00

so, on to another thing: should you be able to directly read a character?

or just equivalency, or both?

DJMcMayhem

@DestructibleLemon This could be for an entirely different challenge though

Destructible Lemon

@DJMcMayhem stahp

Wheat Wizard

︿ and ﹀

DJMcMayhem

Lol

@WheatWizard b and d, p and q,

Wheat Wizard

@DestructibleLemon I think `/\` should pop from the stack, read from relative location and push the character to the stack.

Destructible Lemon

00:04

I think that spaces should only be available in original programs and around the grid

(trying to write a zero also kills you I guess)

(reading a space doesn't kill you, but it is slow, because one space per step)

also cloning might be a thing

actually that would make many complications

Wheat Wizard

I'm afraid that all of the slashes will be destroyed and the two programs will endlessly loop

Destructible Lemon

well

endless looping was possible in corewar

so we'll deal with it in the same way I guess

DJMcMayhem

Anyway, I really gtg now. Cya later! I'll definitely catch up on the transcript

Destructible Lemon

@DJMcMayhem Thanks for the support and stuff

Wheat Wizard

@DestructibleLemon We can probably run a check to see if a win is possible once there are no write characters and call a draw if it is impossible

Destructible Lemon

00:09

nah

Brainflak is TC

so its probably best to put in draws anyway like corewar

Wheat Wizard

We are checking if there is a syntax error not if the programs will halt

Destructible Lemon

the bots do that themselves

Wheat Wizard

ok

Do you want to start work on a controller?

I would like to get in some test games tonight

Destructible Lemon

hmmm, maybe

but I don't really flak at all

also I already have a game controller I should be testing

also dibs on posting the question

the tasty rep is all mine

Wheat Wizard

ok no problems

Destructible Lemon

00:11

muhahahah

Wheat Wizard

I'll start work on it tonight by myself.

Do you have any prefered languages for the controller

Destructible Lemon

Brainflak >:)

nah just kidding

I pretty much only program python

what is the flak interpreter in?

Wheat Wizard

Good I write mostly in Python myself

@DestructibleLemon There are 3 (at least) in Ruby, C and Python

Destructible Lemon

cool

Wheat Wizard

But the Python one is super buggy rn

I'll probably write a new one from scratch

Destructible Lemon

00:20

also in response to that english name thing

<foo> can be called cancel(lation)

or nullify

@WheatWizard thoughts?

also I imagine a common tactic would be placing a bunch of } at the start of the program, because you can use it to mess up the other guy while you don't get affected by it

possibly more { at the end of the program too

Wheat Wizard

00:38

@DestructibleLemon Sounds good. <...> has the most names, I typically call it zeroer or zero.

Destructible Lemon

cancellation sounds better than cancel though

Wheat Wizard

yeah

Destructible Lemon

n - Spiky brackets
Read what? l
This is an Identify scroll
Identify what? n
brackets of cancellation (0:2)

Destructible Lemon

01:06

@WheatWizard what if we use the third stack idea of how the brackets work and combine (, [, and <

Wheat Wizard

We could

It would make programming a bit easier

but it might be confusing for people trying to compete

Destructible Lemon

yeah

but I think it actually kind of works better in a way

(also except for in monads)

Wheat Wizard

ok I'll implement it

Destructible Lemon

do you just program the third stack anyway?

so pretty much just remove all checks for matching stuff

Wheat Wizard

I was also thinking that instead of adding the slashes I could repurpose <...> and []

Destructible Lemon

01:09

because you shouldn't have any anyway

@WheatWizard nah, thats actually rather confusing

Wheat Wizard

@DestructibleLemon Yeah at the low level there actually is a third stack. The check for matches is done before the program starts

{...} doesn't use the Third stack at all

Destructible Lemon

yup

also remember that " " doesn't work like it would in core war

Wheat Wizard

What is that?

Destructible Lemon

space

` `

Wheat Wizard

How does it work differently?

Destructible Lemon

01:12

in core war the areas with no instructions written are data instructions

they kill the bot

in this, you cannot write spaces

also you will need to change the indexes for brackets

Wheat Wizard

oh Yeah, I thought you said different from Brain-Flak and I was confused

Destructible Lemon

also how many steps takes a nilad?

I'm thinking both brackets are considered separately

Wheat Wizard

I think you mean nilad

Destructible Lemon

nilad

yes

:P

Wheat Wizard

in regular brainflak its only one I am writing it as 2 for the controller

Destructible Lemon

01:14

( ) is a nilad like () but takes two more turns

make sure they are considered separately too

Wheat Wizard

oh yeah good thinking

(>) will count > as a monad right?

Destructible Lemon

hmmm

you have made good point

yeah ok don't combine the brackets

Wheat Wizard

rip

just deleted all of my code ;_;

Destructible Lemon

but [()) is the same as (())

@WheatWizard in response to me?

Wheat Wizard

now I'm confused

Destructible Lemon

01:17

me too

Wheat Wizard

should <([ all do the same thing?

Destructible Lemon

no, for the purposes as nilads they are different

also how do you tell the machine (>) is wrong anyway

do you make it check whether you are processing a monad before hand?

Wheat Wizard

no I do that at the end

I check if the last character executed matches the current one

Destructible Lemon

then you end up with (> being drastically different from <>

Wheat Wizard

yes

(> is the same as <()>

Destructible Lemon

01:19

even though the third stack thing says no

Wheat Wizard

This is kind of an edge case for the third stack

Destructible Lemon

mmhm

yeah I guess we'll have to deal with that then

Wheat Wizard

the third stack "concept" treats nilads as single units instead of two braces

Destructible Lemon

(> just does nothing but wait two turns then

Wheat Wizard

currently yes

Destructible Lemon

01:21

it has been decreed

Wheat Wizard

so does [>, (]

I think it is best the way it is even if it is a little weird sometimes

Destructible Lemon

hey you found a way to push zero as short as pushing one

Wheat Wizard

Yay!

shorter even

<)

Destructible Lemon

oh yay!

this is probably going to do really weird things but ok

Wheat Wizard

should we require programs to be balanced to start?

Might fill in some exploits, but exploits might also be fun

@DestructibleLemon Annother thing. Since the third stack is infinitely padded what should the program ()) do? should it push 1 or 0?

Destructible Lemon

01:27

is the third stack infinitely padded?

I'd say () adds 1 to TOS, so it would push 1

so far it seems like the main way to kill is these: {}

so this is actually going to be fairly different from brain-flak isn't it

Wheat Wizard

ok so ()){)} will push 1 forever then?

In practice yes.

Destructible Lemon

hmmm

maybe bottom stack should not be infinitely padded...

Wheat Wizard

what happens when a program attempts to pop from an empty stack then?

Destructible Lemon

ded

though realise you can use ( to add zeroes

or <

etc

Wheat Wizard

I think we might need some test runs before we can determine.

I can make it so the interpreter has a easy switch so we can test and compare the two

Destructible Lemon

01:31

it does tend to be difficult to kill in things like corewar but they have cloning and stuff

I think you could actually do jumping though

Wheat Wizard

I'm going to play some test games tonight with my roommate and we'll see how we like each version

Destructible Lemon

cool

You should call the modified version (without the coresize)

also: remember you should have a core size

also there will be a lot of advanced strategies you can't do. no offence, but I can read up on corewar but still can't make a decent scanner or paper.

@WheatWizard did you implement core size yet? or is it just program sizes + 20

you should have a lot

like maybe 4000 about

or you could have it tiny but probably not

@WheatWizard

Wheat Wizard

01:50

Right now I'm doing 100 for testing it will certainly be an option in the final version

Destructible Lemon

should probably be more than 100

Wheat Wizard

yeah

Destructible Lemon

TBH 100 seems more like an upper limit for program size

~~maybe~~ probably more than 100 for program size

Wheat Wizard

for small testing purposes I just want a number for which programs will halt very quickly

Destructible Lemon

ok

cool

so, do we agree it shouldn't be possible to write space?

Wheat Wizard

01:54

yeah

Destructible Lemon

ok good

if you read space you get a 0

in order of their numbers, the brackets:

(
[
{
<
/
)
]
}
>
\

I got it from the order on esolangs

Wheat Wizard

02:59

what does `/\` do?

Destructible Lemon

well

@WheatWizard I think we decided on it doing the inverse of /foo\; it pops, does the relative locations, and pushes the value of the char there. it is the read command

Wheat Wizard

ok sounds good

Destructible Lemon

03:16

I might help with the controller later if you want

Wheat Wizard

I actually just finished it

I am going to do some testing with my roommate but it should be all done

Destructible Lemon

03:32

BTW it kind of annoys me that you describe Brain-flak as as hard to use as possible

@WheatWizard

Wheat Wizard

@DestructibleLemon where do I say that?

Destructible Lemon

well you being the plural

From the @DJMcMayhem I wrote brain-flak, which is a language supposed to be maddeningly hard to program in.

it kinda trivialises the fact that its more about the fact that it is an interesting language not just one that is hard

DJMcMayhem

03:59

Huh, I never thought of that

@DestructibleLemon Do you have a better summary of it? I feel like saying brain-flak is an interesting language isn't that helpful, cause it's more interesting to say what about it is interesting

Destructible Lemon

I mean I made a really hard language and it kinda sucked

because it was too hard

DJMcMayhem

Turtlèd?

Destructible Lemon

hey!

no woefully

DJMcMayhem

Ooooh, sorry

Destructible Lemon

I mean it could have been good

but it was way too hard to actually work

You can describe it as lisp like

DJMcMayhem

04:02

I think the most interesting part of brain-flak is the way it nests

Destructible Lemon

Lisplike bracket concatenation and nesting language

LiBCaNel

DJMcMayhem

So you can do things, but you can also take the doing of those things and use it for it's value

So for each snippet you have to think about effects and value separately

Is there any word for describing the way it has to be balanced? Symmetrical is almost right, but definitely not

Destructible Lemon

I like the "lisplike bracket concatenation and nesting language" summary

I have to say once again it is a very cool language

DJMcMayhem

Cool! I'm glad you like it :)

Destructible Lemon

I haven't learned it very much but its simplicity means I don't really have to to understand what it is

oh yeah. add minimalist to my summary

DJMcMayhem

04:09

@DestructibleLemon If you want to learn it well, a great entry level task is multiplying two positive integers

Destructible Lemon

do you want a deal?

DJMcMayhem

????

Destructible Lemon

I will do the brainflak multiplication if you do Turtlèd multiplication

(without stealing the one I did)

In fact I don't even have an answer for the adding numbers

you could do that instead

DJMcMayhem

Oh man... I'm really tired right now >_<

Destructible Lemon

you don't have to do it now :P

is it a deal though @DJMcMayhem?

DJMcMayhem

04:18

Idk, I don't really want to make it a deal or anything, cause I don't really have very much time or energy for PPCG right now (sad, I know)

@DestructibleLemon But I'll definitely look into it

Destructible Lemon

yeah ok

DJMcMayhem

It's actually kinda sad. I keep thinking about things I'd like to do on PPCG but I'm so busy right now I know I'll never get to them

Riley

14:55

Can someone double check my logic on the division part of this? If it's all right, it's way shorter than the one one the wiki.

2

A: Division and remainder

Brain-Flak, 168 bytes (({}<(({})<>)>)<>)({}<(({}<>))>((<>))())({<{(({}[()]))<>({}[()])<>{{}(<>)}{}}{}{(({}))(<>)}{}>()}[()]<{}<>{}{}<>>)<>({}(<>))<>{(({})){({}[()])<>}{}}{}<>([{}()]{})({}<>) Format: Input: Output: A (255) remainder (5) B (25) division (10) Try it online! E...

Wheat Wizard

15:12

@Riley as far as I can tell that is fine

but its also not shorter than the one on the wiki

Riley

15:30

@WheatWizard Shoot, I was looking at the one that works for negative numbers...

Wheat Wizard

Well on the bright side you can use the one on the wiki to golf your own down

Riley

16:01

That got it down to 110

DJMcMayhem

16:46

@WheatWizard Hey, I thought of one more potential bfbdc (brain-flak-birthday-challenge). "Given a string of brackets, append the fewest possible characters to make it a valid brain-flak program"

Wheat Wizard

@DJMcMayhem So complete the braces?

DJMcMayhem

Yeah, pretty much

It's not brain-flak specific, but it's related enough

This is nontrivial because it might be partially matched. Take (((())[]{ for example. The obvious approach to just append the whole thing reversed and flipped would give (((())[]{}[](()))) which is longer than necessary. The correct solution would be (((())[]{}))

It would kinda be this challenge 2.0

Thoughts?

Wheat Wizard

Could be fun. I feel like it is a little simple. It could use a twist

DJMcMayhem

17:01

@WheatWizard Here's the first approach that comes to mind: Try it online!

Wheat Wizard

what about ]

DJMcMayhem

One thing I'm just realizing now that I didn't think about is whether it will always be possible to make it valid just by appending. For example, )) would be an invalid input

Maybe change it so that you may append or prepend?

But then guarantee that the input will be at least partially matched, so something like <} or (] would be invalid

@WheatWizard What do you mean?

Are you asking why [] don't show up in the code?

Wheat Wizard

No I was getting at what you said about appending vs prepending

DJMcMayhem

Oh, I see

There's another potential challenge: decision-problem Is it possible to make a string valid brain-flak purely by appending?

Or maybe classification Is it Prependable, Appendable, Both, or Neither?

So ( is appendable, ) is prependable, )( is both, and (] is neither

Wheat Wizard

Thats a more interesting idea

DJMcMayhem

17:23

Title idea: Prepends or Appends? Depends

7

Riker

17:44

@DJMcMayhem mod abuses into voice of god

DJMcMayhem

Lol

Григорий Перельман

Challenge idea: Convert Brain-Flak to Mini-Flak

Григорий Перельман

18:11

@DJMcMayhem How would you classify ()?

DJMcMayhem

@ГригорийПерельман hmmmmm, that's actually a really hard question. I suppose it's probably both, since you can (ap|pre)pend to it, you just don't need to. It might be better to say the input will not be matched

DJMcMayhem

18:38

Hmmm... What's the shortest stack-clean Positive snippet? (i.e. it pushes 0 for 0 and negative and 1 for positive)

And we really need to add less-than/greater-than to the wiki sometime

Wheat Wizard

@ГригорийПерельман That is really, really hard

DJMcMayhem

Yeah, half of it is trivial, changing <...> into ([...])[{}], and the other half is halting-problem level difficult

Wheat Wizard

Basically it becomes write a Brain-Flak interpreter in Mini-flak

Destructible Lemon

22:44

wait a minute

did I say /\ pushes?

it should probably just evaluate to the thing

@WheatWizard (/\\) should push a char value not /\\

also why do `` not work with /\

there we go now

Wheat Wizard

@DestructibleLemon I already made that change

Destructible Lemon

also

if I do //\\

which pops first, the outer or the inner?

@WheatWizard this is important

moreso because you can also do /(()()())\ or something like that

Wheat Wizard

inner happens first

Destructible Lemon

ok cool

Wheat Wizard

I have a bunch of stuff to talk to you about based on my testing last night, but I'm in class now.

Destructible Lemon

22:58

I'm definitely not in class >_>

@WheatWizard when is recess?

Wheat Wizard

I get out at 10

eastern time

Destructible Lemon

umm, is it 6 o clock for you right now? thats what timeanddate.com/time/zones/est says

@WheatWizard

Wheat Wizard

yes

er 7

Destructible Lemon

you start school at seven and don't get recess until ten?

Wheat Wizard

I'm at Uni so I have late classes

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