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4:29 AM
@DavidCarlisle something like that, but a bit random as to what it messed with. I suggested trying a different browser or disabling extensions
4 hours later…
8:50 AM
@JosephWright still no l3kernel-dev ...
@UlrikeFischer no :)
@UlrikeFischer I guess we wait more than a week after it's out
9:54 AM
@DavidCarlisle or dump them into saveboxes and use those
10:18 AM

I think the problem why my (900 page) document takes so long to translate is that I calculate the ~16 card layouts -per page- myself.

It should be quicker to use a ready-made playing card font.

Now I need a “60 card deck”.

So the question would be:
How difficult is it to turn this into a font file "60deck.ttf"?
@cis turn it into a PDF and use \includegraphics, much easier than turning it into a font.
@cis Are you just using TikZ to draw the cards? Couldn't you use basic commands to draw them instead of TikZ? Might already be quicker.
@Skillmon Easier maybe, but not so cool....

@JasperHabicht Maybe, but I find, I have mor options with TikZ: rounded corners, fill=creme and so on.....

My calculation-method to get the correct card from it's number looks like this:
% 60 cards deck ============================
declare function={
CardColor(\n)=(   \n <= 15 ? "spadecolor" :
  ( \n <=30 ? "heartcolor" : (
  ( \n <=45 ? "diamondcolor" : "clubcolor"
 CardSuit(\n)=( \n <= 15 ?  "$\spadesuit$" :
( \n<=30 ? "$\heartsuit$" :
( \n<=45 ? "$\diamondsuit$" : "$\clubsuit$"
CardRank(\n)=(   mod(\n,15)==1 ? "A" :
  ( mod(\n,15)==11 ? "B" : ( % Jack - Bube
  ( mod(\n,15)==12 ? "R" : ( % Knight - Ritter
  ( mod(\n,15)==13 ? "D" : ( % Queen - Dame
  ( mod(\n,15)==14 ? "K" : ( % King - König
10:44 AM
Should the following work?

I don't get an svg file. (I have ImageMagick installed.)

I think it's kind of a myth that 'standalone.cls' can produce other formats (png, svg,...). I tried this many times, it never worked.
% arara: pdflatex: {  shell: yes }

%\usetikzlibrary{...}% tikz package already loaded by 'tikz' option
\begin{tikzpicture}% Example:
  \draw (0,0) -- (10,10); % ...
  \draw (10,0) -- (0,10); % ...
  \node at (5,5) {Lorem ipsum at domine standalonus};
@cis You need Inkscape as far as I know
But there is also dvisvgm
11:08 AM
@JasperHabicht Oh yes, I found dvisvgm in my texlive. I will look deeper.
OK.... could work:

F:\and so on\svgTest>dvisvgm svgtest01.pdf --pdf
processing PDF file
  graphic size: 284.927486pt x 284.927486pt (100.140558mm x 100.140558mm)
  output written to svgtest01.svg
1 of 1 page converted in 0.522 seconds
@cis but the time to make one deck is probably not that greatso as @Skillmon just says you could save them in 60 boxes and get access them essentially instantly. You could get fancier and re-use the objects in the pdf so they only got included once, but just using saveboxes would give you te time speedup
@PauloCereda dinner
@DavidCarlisle same-same but different :) Isn't the package for that called savebox? (or something like that)
@Skillmon bound to be somewhere:-)
@DavidCarlisle xsavebox
11:18 AM
@DavidCarlisle oh no
@Skillmon hi mr rabbit! <3
@PauloCereda Hi, Mr. Duck! Long time no hear!
@Skillmon quack! /duck hug
@PauloCereda Awww, here, have a carrot: <3 /rabbit nibble
@Skillmon awwww
@DavidCarlisle they updated the declaration page so I updated pdfresources
11:25 AM
@UlrikeFischer ignoring my suggestion to add useful anchors:-)
@UlrikeFischer I'll rebuild
@DavidCarlisle But is it declared somewhere if you are going to use periods at the end of the urls?
@DavidCarlisle in the issue the anchors are mentioned, so probably they will get added too.
@UlrikeFischer ah so they are
@UlrikeFischer building now....
@mickep yes of course, and as you see above three at the end of sentences, so we can distinguish...
@DavidCarlisle Oh, English is so easy....
Yes, but I need a cool method as well.
So better to create an own font then \includegraphics

I created one letter with TikZ in

and after `dvisvgm`



{aaa \color{red}\symfont\char"00000}

aaa \color{red}\symfont\Huge\char"00000

Not perfect, because strange baseline. But not that bad for a first try....
11:40 AM
@cis Well, that is supposed to be a "high" card.
@mickep correct.... :)
11:52 AM
     <rdf:li rdf:parseType="Resource">
        <rdf:li rdf:parseType="Resource">
         <pdfd:claimBy>LaTeX Project</pdfd:claimBy>
     <rdf:li rdf:parseType="Resource">
@UlrikeFischer ^^^^
@mickep look no dots...
@DavidCarlisle You are such an antidot(e) to bad url styles...
@mickep and insecure transport protocols
@DavidCarlisle Yes, these are weird in many ways. Also, why look like real links, when they are not really?
@mickep I requested that they make the links work: github.com/pdf-association/pdf-issues/issues/…
@DavidCarlisle Indeed, makes sense.
12:41 PM
Could standalone.cls not use `dvisvgm`?

I tried without success:
% arara: pdflatex: {  shell: yes }

\documentclass[crop,tikz, convert={outext=.svg,command=\unexpanded{dvisvgm \infile\space\outfile}},multi=false]{standalone}
\begin{tikzpicture}% Example:
\node[align=center, draw, rounded corners=1pt, inner sep=1pt,
minimum width=0.5*6ex, minimum height=0.5*9ex,
]{A \\ $\clubsuit$};
12:58 PM
@cis pdflatex will give you a .pdf, not a .dvi.
What do I have to do there?

I thought standalone.cls creates an svg, png, ..... etc. file in addition to the pdf.

Maybe I misunderstood that.
@cis you would want to start with latex not pdflatex to get a dvi for dvisvgm to convert to svg
@UlrikeFischer all pdated at drive.google.com/drive/u/2/folders/…
1:14 PM
Uhhhhh.... nono:

I found out:
The mechanism of standalone.cls-convert should be what I thought.

But I wrote the command wrong, it is with '--pdf'

% arara: pdflatex: { shell: yes }

\documentclass[crop,tikz, convert={outext=.svg,
command=\unexpanded{dvisvgm --pdf \infile\space\outfile}},multi=false,

This produces -as I thought- a pdf- AND a dvi-file.

So this was my first working standalone-conversion, @Martin Scharrer be proud of me...
Log says:
Executing command:
dvisvgm --pdf svgtest01.pdf svgtest01.svg
I've got a totally different question: If I want for whatever reason redefine \" via expl3, should I do this via \tl_set:Nn or \cs_set:Npn? To my understanding, this is a control symbol, so something more like a control sequence (and if I analyse via \tl_analyse..., it also says control sequence. So, probably \cs_set is semantically more correct here?
@cis oh yes --pdf although that's kind of werid as dvisvgm can't read pdf files so it simply calls ghostscript to convert to eps which it then tries to convert to svg, geting tex to make dvi would be a much simpler code parh:-)
@JasperHabicht cs
@JosephWright So be it
\cs` although (sometimes) i argue you should use \def
@JasperHabicht if you everwant expl3 debug or syntax checkers that check a cs name defined has the right :Nnnn signature it's difficult if you use expl3 commands to define the document level commands. there is an argument to say you should define an \jh_accent:n command in expl3 then \newDocumentCommand\"{m}{\jh_accent:n{#1}}
1:26 PM
@DavidCarlisle Yes, I also thought about this ...
`\par is also a CS then?
Maybe really \def ... but I am really don't want to destroy the expl3 beauty =D
@JasperHabicht I'd probably use \cs_set
@DavidCarlisle I now switched to \cs_set, yes. I can add a comment to the source code that warns people wo try to debug ...
@DavidCarlisle OR \cs_set_protected, but yes
@JosephWright ah that yes
1:42 PM
user image
This hurts
2:04 PM
Is there a good way to do callback functions in LaTeX? Say I want to use a macro like this \Foo{\Bar}{#1 has value}, such that \Foo can do some tests on par, and if on then #1 has value is the replacement text with #1 = \Bar. Here is also want to able to use this in deeply nested macros/envs.
Is there a good solution to this?
2:15 PM
@daleif not quite sure what you mean but something like this makes "bar has value"


\Foo{\Bar}{#1 has value}

2:31 PM
@daleif Aren't hooks the same idea as callback functions? I think I understand what you're saying until you get to "and if on then".
@Teepeemm It should have said if ok then run the second arg with #1 replaced by \Bar. Hooks will not work here. My mental image is something like \UseIf{\foo}{#1 users} should then do nothing if say \foo has no contents or is not defined. And if \foo=5, then \UseIf{\foo}{#1 users} should print 5 users.
It is to abstract away a lot of \ifdefvoid tests.
@daleif what I posted, with the addition of some conditional code around \def\footmp
@DavidCarlisle and one neeed to remember the # doubling when using it in nested contexts
@daleif well tex is tex:-)
2:48 PM
It works quite well thanks.
@daleif \clist_map_inline:nn is basically the same:-)
@DavidCarlisle and one has to remember ones nesting levels ;-) so \UseT\foo{#1 \UseT\bar{##1}} does work
4:00 PM
I think this is a FontForge-problem.

Is there a FontForge-trick?

The svg-file-import of the "2" should be placed at the position of the "Ace".
4:28 PM
@cis You can align them yourself.
I read, a fontforge-area (whatever) has 1000px x 1000px.
So I try to make a tikzpicture this size.
@daleif =( some of the walls of the historic stock exchange seem to have collapsed now ... this is really a tragedy!
! Package tagpdf Error: The number of automatic begin (97) and end (95) text
(tagpdf)                para hooks differ!
I bame @UlrikeFischer
@DavidCarlisle Ooops
@DavidCarlisle which document?
4:44 PM
@UlrikeFischer a version of my paper with Neil after I put back llncs.cls, I can comment out various bits of llncs.cls and the number changes but always tells me that I am 2 out I'm not sure how to find which it is (well it's in \maketitle somewhere)
@UlrikeFischer you have an invite:-)
@DavidCarlisle there are two vboxes not ended by \par, one in \institutename and one in \@maketitle.
@UlrikeFischer ah thanks I'll fix up after the meeting, could you try removing XXX from \long\def\XXX@makefntext#1{% as well?
! Undefined control sequence.
<argument> \ERROR
       \cs_set_eq:NN \__fnote_tmp:w \exp_stop_f:
l.35 \begin{document}

@UlrikeFischer ^
@DavidCarlisle I will check. But while the title doesn't error, tagging looks a bit curious, the title is there more than once, they must be some trial typesetting somewhere.
5:16 PM
If I define a cctab is my definition then based on the default LaTeX kernel? So, what I mean, is there anything that is pre-defined? Where can I find more information on this?
The center of the svg-graph has to be the center of the FontForge "draw area" (don't know how this is called).

And I don't know how to set that in the menues.
1 hour later…
6:24 PM
@cis Maybe first import everything, then mark them and set side bearings. I don't remember the name of the menu, but it is maybe second/third from the right.
6:36 PM
@JasperHabicht interface3 for the l3 interface and texdoc ltluatex section 5.4 for the Lua
@UlrikeFischer your crystall ball is shiny today:
          \typeout{Title too long for running head. Please supply}%
@DavidCarlisle that was the one one, but there were more. I pushed changes in a new branch.
@UlrikeFischer ah thanks, I was just looking what you do for caption trials in latex-lab, ` \tag_stop:n{caption}` ... but I'll look at your branch
looks good here, should I merge?
@DavidCarlisle Sure if it is okay with you.
6:47 PM
Package tagpdf Warning: Parent-Child 'Link/pdf2' --> 'Link/pdf2'.
(tagpdf) Relation is not allowed (struct 431, /Link --> struct
(tagpdf) 432) on line 60
@DavidCarlisle somewhere is a link in a link. Do you have some \ref in a section title?
@UlrikeFischer I'll look
@UlrikeFischer in the bbl
@PauloCereda oh, de-duck-tions!
doesn't like doi links
@DavidCarlisle ah that explains why I didn't see it. I hadn't made the bib.
7:01 PM
I see doi is a link but why is it bad?
@PauloCereda -- More on that subject in theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/may/04/… When TUG was held at Oxford, the play we attended outdoors was at one point overrun by swans; they're dangerous beasts! And I was once nearly attacked by a swan when I came too near to a nest on my bicycle; that was here in Rhode Island.
 \ProvidesClass{llncs-t}[2024/01/29 v2.24
 ^^J LaTeX document class for Lecture Notes in Computer Science]
@UlrikeFischer I updated minimum accepted latex date a bit:-)
@UlrikeFischer oh they have used \url inside \href ...
@DavidCarlisle there are two link structures, the code nests links..
@DavidCarlisle yes, that should be \nolinkurl
@DavidCarlisle So, "as set by iniTeX" then ...
I'll look that up in the code base
@UlrikeFischer yeh thanks for the help
7:07 PM
@DavidCarlisle I think one still need to improve the \thanks command. They don't produce footnotes yet.
But I have to make dinner first ...
@UlrikeFischer good plan, I just had mine:-)
Also there are no bookmarks/outline
@barbarabeeton oh no, that's super scary!
@PauloCereda -- Yes. It definitely was. Until you've actually been up close to a swan, you don't realize how big they are. (I'm talking about the white mute swans; the Australian black swans seem a bit more demure, but I've never met one in the wild.)
7:22 PM
@DavidCarlisle \usepackage[hidelinks,bookmarksdepth=2]{hyperref}
@barbarabeeton I am not familiar with swans, just ducks, mallards and geese. But I can image how massive they are!
Waiting for @DavidCarlisle to add "and delicious" to my sentence. :)
@PauloCereda just think of a swan coming towards you as a self-delivering dinner
@DavidCarlisle oh no
1 hour later…
8:34 PM
@DavidCarlisle <url./>
8:46 PM
@mickep I never imagined that a single . could lead to so many mails :)
@samcarter TeXers are sometimes a bit "funny".
(Or should I go inhere with "funny."? :P)
@samcarter no more from me on that subject, I'm all wrong anyway, apparently:-)
@mickep Or the save solution: "funny.".
@DavidCarlisle No respect for tex wizards :)
@DavidCarlisle I was just surprised that some of the o̶l̶d̶e̶r̶ more experienced texies were feeding the troll...
@mickep even trolls need food sometimes.
9:17 PM
@samcarter ooh
9:31 PM
@DavidCarlisle I added a Title tag, but I don't see an easy way to handle the institute "as footnotes", so I think one should simply add some Span around the markers with a Sup.
9:47 PM
@UlrikeFischer thanks, I also added some guards so the class works even if \DocumentMeta is not used. Not sure if I did that the best way
@DavidCarlisle it should probably be enough to load tagpdf-base. That defines all relevant commands as dummies.
@UlrikeFischer ah I thought there were some dummies somewhere. I'll do that for the tagging. is there a better thing than \@ifundefined{l_socket_#1_plug_str}{% we don't seem to have an \IfSocketExistsTF
@DavidCarlisle we discussed a IfSocketExistsTF (here github.com/latex3/tagging-project/issues/63) and imho we should add it as soon as possible. Something like this is really needed to guard the code.
@UlrikeFischer I could do \providecommand\IfSocketExistsTF[3]{\@ifundefined{l_socket_#1_plug_str}{#3}{#2}} then use that?
@DavidCarlisle yes, sounds good.
10:12 PM
@UlrikeFischer done
It is completely ununderstandable, why he needs to place importet svg-files there above (by default); and not at the baseline (red). Noone in the worlds wants to have that there.

And it's not good or professional to move this around with the mouse.
@DavidCarlisle and you even removed the XXX
@UlrikeFischer and the #1 which was magically being ignored:-)
@cis Cough, use boxes or images, cough ...
do I need to guard the trial \sbox setting in \@makecaption, or is that getting over-written anyway by latex-lab? latex-lab-float says % \cs{@makecaption} is defined by the classes so we overwrite it for now
@samcarter or picture mode
10:19 PM
@DavidCarlisle ah, yes that gets overwritten, so one should check if the layout still fits.
@samcarter Are you suggesting that I save images with card game symbols as a PDF and include them with \includegraphics?

No, that's way too uncool!
Everyone does it that way....
That's far too mainstream or "timeghost" [Zeitgeist] as they say in German.
@UlrikeFischer can I avoid that? I had the document working with article class but was hoping to use more or less exactly llncs style so Neil can ask the conference organisers or springer to make accessible conference papers. as it's an accessibility conference icchp.org
@cis it might be uncool, but it would safe us from the constant stream of commentary on fontforge's capabilities :)
@DavidCarlisle I need to practise with tikz for a bit more until I can graduate to the next level and use picture mode :)
@samcarter as long as you don't flood this chat with tikz comments while doing so.
@DavidCarlisle you can remove the hook code RemoveFromHook{begindocument}[latex-lab-testphase-float], there is only the makecaption redefinition in it.
10:29 PM
You don't know the hotkey or tab for automatic moving to baseline either.
If someone finds out, we'll all have learned.
@UlrikeFischer ok thanks, I'll experiment with that
@DavidCarlisle Don't worry, I reserve all my chat-flooding for duck related content
@samcarter ooh
@cis ... if someone finds out, this knowledge will be buried in an obscure chat room in which nobody will every find it again. To bad there aren't any Q&A sites where future users with the same problem would find an answer ...
@PauloCereda Quack!
@samcarter not discussing technical details of tex markup in secret private github repos?
10:37 PM
@DavidCarlisle I'm missing all the fun!
@samcarter I need all the discussion to be in an obscure chat room so that when people see the git log it will seem as if I'm brilliant and understood all this stuff and made it work with brilliantly coded checkins.
You are forgetting my 3-hour lecture that I will give on that topic...
But.... yes, I have ideas to solve this TikZ-style.
Otherwise I'll open a thread about it tomorrow.
@DavidCarlisle as long as the logs look good :)
@samcarter quack <3
10:54 PM
@PauloCereda :P
11:18 PM
Is there any danger in using \ProvidesExplPackage in place of \ProvidesPackage?
Here I have written two Ms: MM

What is the normally disctance between these to Ms in LaTeX, say ComputerModern. :)
11:43 PM
@cis tex puts no space between characters and cmr10 has no kern specified between M and M so no space is added:

...\hbox(6.83331+0.0)x345.0, glue set 311.66663fil
....\OT1/cmr/m/n/10 M
....\OT1/cmr/m/n/10 M
....\penalty 10000
....\glue(\parfillskip) 0.0 plus 1.0fil
....\glue(\rightskip) 0.0
...\glue 0.0 plus 1.0fil
@DavidCarlisle :65524867 @DavidCarlisle I thought this very small distance here.
@cis that's not known about by tex it's the sidebearing within the font, ie the advance width is larger than the visible size, but tex knows nothing about which pixels are black
@DavidCarlisle OK, I will research that.

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