@DavidCarlisle because those two were in the discussion on the github thread, sorry... @DavidCarlisle I created the PR for the lesson-08 rewrite.

@DavidCarlisle it did work with pandoc this way, so I hoped it would with Github's markdown as well... Could you push the working version, I'm still not sure what I should do. Should I build the entire table with HTML instead?

@Rmano A definite yesn't

@DavidCarlisle so many comments about my bad English.... :)

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz no markdown tables will make it easier to keep the same style but I couldn't see a pure markdown way to get the | into a cell so just putting span around that will fix it up. I'll do that in your branch

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz :-O ;-P

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz see my test table at davidcarlisle.github.io/ll/en/…

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz pushed to your branch

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz mostly the comments were not that the English was bad so much as too chatty/colloquial for the style of the rest of the course.

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz You could consider \usepackage[whole]{bxcjkjatype}

% tex.stackexchange.com/a/450483
\documentclass[a4paper]{article}
\usepackage[whole]{bxcjkjatype}
\begin{document}
\newcommand{\JaSampleText}{%
Direct input 日本語
or UTF-input \UTF{65E5}\UTF{672C}\UTF{8A9E}
works as well.}

\section{Kana and Kanji}
\begin{itemize}
\item \rmfamily Mincho (明朝) family: \JaSampleText

\item \sffamily Gothic (ゴシック) family: \JaSampleText
\end{itemize}

Hint: You can you use the well-known commands \verb+\sffamily+ and \verb+\rmfamily+.
\end{document}

@cis presumably not your fault but \UTF seems a strange choice of command name. The 日本語 form which is input in UTF-8 has no UTF command but the form using Unicode code points written as ASCII hex numbers not any of the Unicode Transformation Formats, uses \UTF

@cis yes they are the numbers, but it's odd that the command is called \UTF since it is explicitly not using UTF input or output.

@DavidCarlisle Mmmh, I think the author himself created that command \UTF{...}.

@cis yes as I say not your fault, the command is defined in the package, it's still a bad name though:-)

@DavidCarlisle How could a correct command look like?

@cis well in xetex or luatex you could use \symbol{"65E5} or the primitive \char"65E5 or ^^^^65e5 syntaxes. UTF referrers to formats defined by Unicode consortium such as UTF-8 which is the encoding used by this site (most sites) and allows you to write 日本語 directly. But it doesn't really matter, it's only a name.

@DavidCarlisle should be better now. And there were a few sentence I had issues to follow today, just one day after writing them. So all in all it was not-so-good Genglish.

@DavidCarlisle thanks :)

@cis yes you need to use a package-defined command if you are using pdflatex, and unless you are the package author you can't really change the command name I wasn't suggesting you change anything, just commenting on the package syntax. But there are lots of packages that could have better syntax:-)

@JosephWright I'm trying to remember if I knew this before:-)

\begin{document}
    The vorticity $ω$ is defined as $ω = ∇ × u$.
\end{document}

I would like

\begin{document}
    The vorticity $\omega$ is defined as $\omega = \Delta \times u$.
\end{document}

Sometimes you want to work WYSIWYG-like. So it's good if you can do both.

@cis sure I was only commenting on the name not the usefulness.

@cis but still if you are typing a lot of Japanese pdflatex is perhaps the least recommended of the common engines, xelatex, lualatex or (especially) uplatex have a lot more features to support non Latin scripts and a much wider choice of available fonts for japanese

quack

@PauloCereda A DUCK

@JosephWright ooh a duck

@PauloCereda 朝ごはん

@DavidCarlisle ooh a recipe oh no

@barbarabeeton learnlatex.org/en/lesson-08 (and more-08) updated

@JosephWright do you have any plans for more-15 ?

@DavidCarlisle Not at the moment

@DavidCarlisle Suggestions?

@JosephWright source2e (or interface3) keep coming in to my head, but I think they are perhaps too far off, but on the other hand this is the last lesson so....

@JosephWright buy a Office 365 license? :)

@PauloCereda we both have one of those

@DavidCarlisle ooh backup

@DavidPurton hi mr. koala

@DavidCarlisle Er, OK, that would be fine

@JosephWright OK I may add a few words later

@DavidCarlisle Any thoughts on the cctab ideas?

@JosephWright was a bit busy yesterday, will try to look, I think I forgot half of what I knew about quirks in the luatex version

@DavidCarlisle Cool, thanks

@JosephWright "at last: some fun with LaTeX" or "More on errors"?

@UlrikeFischer I'm a bit against fun in a lesson. Not everyone is keen on ducks or christmas carols

@DavidCarlisle Indeed

@UlrikeFischer, @DavidCarlisle I've just spotted a (Japanese) tweet about learning resources; I've suggested a translation would be good, but we likely need to decide where 'language-specific details' go

twitter.com/wtsnjp/status/1262389939146194948

@PauloCereda Evening!

@DavidCarlisle well I wouldn't add xii.tex and ducks are probably too much of an inside joke. But there are quite a number of other things possible which would add a bit color and give a glimpse of the variety of latex to the end of the lesson, e.g. tikzpeople, or the xkcd imitations, or coffee stains, or tcolorbox, or something showing music.

@DavidPurton ooh it's 7:25AM :)

@PauloCereda Almost exactly opposite! 1955

@DavidPurton ooh

@DavidCarlisle uʍop ǝpᴉsdn sᴉ ɐlɐoʞ ˙ɹɯ ʞuᴉɥʇ I ɥoo

@PauloCereda A common misconception. In fact, it's those in the northern hemisphere who are upside down. :)

@DavidPurton ooh

@PauloCereda although: youtube.com/watch?v=XfR9iY5y94s

@DavidPurton SUCCESS

@DavidPurton Aussies rock!

@DavidPurton youtube.com/watch?v=L5Vh2w_PMac

For several reasons, including Sheila E. <3

@PauloCereda :)

I miss Will. :(

@UlrikeFischer tcolorbox and music OK but not sure where, currently the last lesson is "more on documentation" that's more of a final lesson-16 "things you can look at after this course"

@PauloCereda I know you oscillate between wanting to be English and German and you actually are a bit Italian, but have you noticed which hemisphere you live in?

@DavidCarlisle ooh a plot twist

@DavidCarlisle that's actually... eye-opening :)

@PauloCereda What happened?

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz he sleeps during the day:-)

@DavidCarlisle I was shocked there for a second.

@Skillmonlikestopanswers.xyz I just miss him. :) Met him in TUG 2018.

@PauloCereda now you have discovered you live in the same hemisphere you could pop round and see him once lockdown over.

@JosephWright possibly suggest translators don't translate more-06 but rather just write something suitable at that point.

@DavidCarlisle Let me check flights to Australia.

Hi all!

@PauloCereda Haha. It's going to be a while ;)

But my state has no active virus cases now!

And we get to go out to cafes and eat indoors soon!

@PauloCereda El Chapulin colorado... Un clásico :)

@DavidPurton :)

@PabloGonzálezL indeed!

@yo' ooh workshop

@PauloCereda 4 hours to go :-)

@yo' ooh :)

@DavidCarlisle Did you know that Kopka and Daly is out-of-print :(

I spend a fun hour looking up Patrick Daly: there is a PDF of a draft of the 4th edition of the book still lurking on the (former) employer's website

@JosephWright hardly surprising, when was last printing?

It's still available as an ebook :)

@DavidCarlisle 2005

@DavidCarlisle I don't know: the rest of the series is still available, and with modern print-on-demand stuff I thought it would be about

@JosephWright save the planet don't print on dead trees

@barbarabeeton mentioned in passing that the spiral bound texbooks aren't available any more either and you have to get the hardback

@DavidCarlisle Oh, that's a shame

@DavidCarlisle Amazon say it's available: amazon.co.uk/TeXbook-Donald-Knuth/dp/0201134489/…

@JosephWright it doesn't seem to be listed at A-W any more though so presumably its old stock even if "new"

@DavidCarlisle Ah, yes, could well be that

@DavidCarlisle It's just that I'd say it's the 'standard' beginners book

@JosephWright I clearly did it wrong, starting with the texbook:-)

@DavidCarlisle :)

@JosephWright did you just get that 404 warning from google abot texfaq

@DavidCarlisle Yes, not sure why

I think it mention "error" too often so google has decided it should be a 404 status page not 200. Never trust AI :-)

@DavidCarlisle @MarcelKrüger I will probably never understand how luatex handles hyphenation. Why does the font change prevents the line break here?

\documentclass[a4paper]{article}
\usepackage{showframe}
\overfullrule=1mm

\begin{document}\showoutput
    xxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxx xxxxxxxxxx Java-API xxxxxx

    xxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxx xxxxxxxxxx Java-\textrm{API} xxxxxx

\end{document}

@DavidCarlisle LOL

@DavidCarlisle Ah, I did wonder

@PauloCereda yes but then google de-indexes the page so it won't be found by site search, just seeing if we can force it back...

@JosephWright this not very helpful advice:

If a page on your site is available and should be displaying in search results, it means Googlebot sees it as “thin” content. In this case, you need to work on improving the content on your page so you can avoid triggering a soft 404 error.

@DavidCarlisle -- Have you got anything on debugging or how to read a log?

@DavidCarlisle -- He'd better get used to that. In some months he's going to be waked up at night, at least for a while.

@barbarabeeton No would need to be a new lesson I think not sure it would fit otherwise (@JosephWright)

@barbarabeeton :-)

@barbarabeeton There's a small amount, but that feels (to me) well beyond the scope of a beginners course

@barbarabeeton lesson-16, (1) take a typical beamer example and insert \tracingall on line 1, (2) Read the log.

@DavidCarlisle -- There may still be a list on the AMS site with a "graded" selection of books. If you're interested, I'll find the link.

@DavidCarlisle We can still adjust the lessons

@DavidCarlisle -- EEEK!

@barbarabeeton then more-16 could be (3) buy a bigger disk

@JosephWright yes but as you say it's not clear that you want debugging more than the obvious if you get an error message don't ignore it

@DavidCarlisle -- Looked it up anyhow: ams.org/publications/authors/tex/tex-pub

@DavidCarlisle -- Yes! Make real sure there's something about "it's essential that you know how to find the log." So many questions here show that too many front ends hide it.

@barbarabeeton learnlatex.org/en/lesson-03 has 'handling errors'

@DavidCarlisle I guess Google found that stuff since I added a sitemap

@JosephWright -- It does say that there is a .log file, but does.t say where to find it. I guess that's too variable to be specific, but if it's possible to add a hint, even if only to ask the potential helpers where to find it. Maybe a community wiki question here on the main site, "Where can I find the log file?", could gather information on the various front ends.

@cis 'program code'?

@cis ? in xetex or luatex the characters just pass straight through (more or less) there isn't any code, in pdftex there will be some macros decoding the number and working out which font that corresponds to, the details are specific to the package you are using. (for cjk packages that are mapping large numbers of characters)

@DavidPurton I have played with your checkbox code and have now a pdf here github.com/latex3/pdfresources/blob/test-new-hooks/experiments/…. Unlike your code it doesn't create a new xform for every checkbox but only one per appearance. And it allows to group the checkbox (the one with the same number can be checked together.

@DavidPurton But I'm not sure if one can integrate this into the current hyperref drivers - that would probably need quite some rewriting as I had to split the code for the field dictionary and the annotation dictionary.

@UlrikeFischer Making progress overall with the cleanup?

new cm font work... ctan.org/ctan-ann/id/…

@DavidCarlisle Oooh

@DavidCarlisle OpenType I see :)

@cis do you mean you want to look into the font? that depends what kind of font it is, opentype fonts you need a font editor like fontforge,

@cis impossible to guess what you mean really, perhaps ask a question on site with an actual example.

@JosephWright yes. Moving catalog, pageresources etc under "pdfdict" worked out very well. But it started quite some thinking about how to organize/name the other things.

@UlrikeFischer Good

@UlrikeFischer Do we need stuff adding to l3backend yet?

@UlrikeFischer Or is that all waiting on the hooks?

@JosephWright I need a way to write an uncompressed stream (which is difficult as only luatex has a "uncompress" keyword). And the color test.

@UlrikeFischer Ah, right: I'll perhaps have look

@DavidCarlisle I was thinking about translations of learnlatex.org: we could have language-XX pages for more 'open-ended' language-specific additions, then link to them from the index for that language

@UlrikeFischer Aren;t steams meant to be compressed or not based on the object compression level? How does this work with a 'mixed' situation?

@JosephWright yes that would work, if you added one for (say) UK hyphenation we could check the liquid templating adds them in the right places

@JosephWright this is all a bit muddy. You can find references that the metadata stream should not be compressed. But I'm not sure if this is really required. With luatex you can do it with the uncompress keyword and then you get a partly uncompressed pdf. With pdftex one can locally change the compresslevel. with xetex and dvips it is imho only possible to not compress at all. You can try with hyperxmp:

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{hyperxmp}
\usepackage[pdfauthor=me]{hyperref}
\begin{document}
abcxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
\end{document}

@cis a true type font isn't a readable file so you can't really look at the code, it internally stores curves and lines for each character but it's more like a graphical editor you can't really see how the curves came to have those shapes, it may have been generated by something or the designer may just have dragged the control points around on screen until it looked nice.

@DavidCarlisle OK, so do we want to call it language-01 or english-01 or ???

@JosephWright language- would be easier as then just need to look for fixed strings where we are already looking for more- and lesson, but en- would work (as that string will need passing in anyway as the directory to use)

@UlrikeFischer How does that manage it?

@DavidCarlisle Was my thinking too: is 'language' the right description?

@JosephWright it will do (although you'll probably offend someone whatever you call it, but "languages locales scripts bcp 47 tags and other related concepts" is probably a bit long

@UlrikeFischer Oh, I see, messes with the compresslevel

@JosephWright yes, but let me just check something.

@DavidCarlisle Yup

@DavidCarlisle I've added one: bound to be the shortest one!

@JosephWright OK I'll look this evening

@JosephWright hm, verapdf says only that the stream should not contain the filter keyword, but I would have to build some test files to check if that means that we don't need to care about stream compression.

@UlrikeFischer OK ...

@UlrikeFischer So for the present perhaps we don't worry? Not like we can control it in XeTeX/dvips/dvipdfmx anyway

@JosephWright probably. Do you know any (non-pdf-viewer) tool that actually uses the xmp-data?

@JosephWright @yo' overleaf API updated :-)

@DavidCarlisle yeah I saw it :-) the real question is: Does it work? :-D

@yo' I'll know in a bit

alzheimersresearchuk.org/events/…

@yo' yes!! (@JosephWright)

@DavidCarlisle oh!

@JosephWright while testing the overleaf I noticed that the project at learnlatex.org/en/lesson-13 doesn't actually have a bib file so you get a no bib file warning....

@yo' you can try ^^

@DavidCarlisle yay! (it does work :-) )

@yo' the test url I had given to your support address earlier worked straight away but I had to re-arrange things a bit as initially I had all the subsidiary files first (as I just edited the filecontents loop) but overleaf is a bit unhappy if the first item is a bib file so I had to re-arrange a bit, simple cut and paste once I'd worked out what needed moving where:-)

@DavidCarlisle ah! Well, is there something to note down? We can definitely either make a quick fix, or just make a note about the issue so that it's not forgotten :-)

@yo' no I think it's implicit in the docs (and same as the multi-file version that you had before working for http uploads, it's not unreasonable that if you submit 10 .tex files it needs a hint as to which is the top level entry point (or at least I think that's the case, putting it first doesn't hurt certainly:-)

@DavidCarlisle ok :) I'm really glad that this works!

@yo' if I set up latexmk, do you have (u)platex installed there (I know you can use plain tex by fiddling with the latexmkrc)

@DavidCarlisle I think uptex is difficult for some reason...

@yo' because if we put out a call for translations it's likely to get asked....

yeah. That's one I'd have to ask LianTze about...

@DavidCarlisle does it work in the latexonline setup?

@yo' currently I don't allow arbitrary %!TEX ... comments to change the engine if it does match platex|xelatex|lualatex it is silently ignored

@UlrikeFischer ^^ I think it would, if I hadn't stopped you accessing it... (I should try:-)

@DavidCarlisle oh well we don't read these directives at all

@yo' no but I need to read them to add the engine= parameter to the post submission, as the only interface the end user has is editing the text block so the comment interface seemed most natural

@DavidCarlisle ah right

but TBH I would love the directives to be read; both for the main file and for the engine... (at least for the engines we actually support)

@yo' so I could support %!TEX uplatex by adding a latexmk config file, if that was possible

@DavidCarlisle overleaf.com/learn/latex/Questions/…

@yo' ah I even guessed the right answer:-) thanks

@DavidCarlisle :-)

But I was going to show you the %!TEX comment working for overleaf submission learnlatex.org/en/more-14 was working but it looks like i just broke it, I need to check, probably me not you:-)

@DavidCarlisle and of course, given your language proficiency, this is the best source after all: doratex.hatenablog.jp/entry/20180503/1525338512

@yo' can can you see what kind of thing document.tex is at overleaf.com/project/5ec59ab01248f300011de62c

@DavidCarlisle for some reason it's treated as non-editable. Usual cause is bad UTF-8 encoding or weird UTF-8 stuff

@yo' blurg :(

@DavidCarlisle but I'm mostly off now. If you keep the project as is, I might have a look tomorrow, but basically running it through UTF decoder (such as VIm) should suffice to see the issue.

(other issue is when the files are too large, but that's not the case here... :D )

also, if you ask about it at support@overleaf.com, it'll probably get passed to a developer who might have a better idea...

@yo' sure I realise its work for you, I'll experiment a bit with my local test file more-14 at the learnlatex address is a stable test case

@yo' I'll play a bit myself first might be my javascript

@DavidCarlisle well, this is somewhere in between, it's a part of my job that I'm willing to do in my free time and call it hobby :-)

@DavidCarlisle you can download the file nontheless and that should allow you to inspect...

@yo' ah thanks yes I'll do that

I don't see anything unexpacted first hand, but I really gotta go, I get up earlyish tomorrow

I'm glad that the multifile thingy works! With these little items, feel free to prod me here in chat, I'll either know how to help or know someone who knows :-) Good night!

@yo' its me (I'm posting nonsense, not sure why yet but I used a debug post server to see what I was submitting...)

@UlrikeFischer LuaTeX does not insert an explicit discretionary if a word ends with a hyphen. Your Java-\textrm{API} is equivalent to Java-\/API\/ where the \/ inserts a kern node of subtype italic correction. In contrast to what the LuaTeX doc claims, a kern node always ends a word except if the subtype is fontkern (The manual claims that italic correction is the exception). So as far as LuaTeX is concerned, the kern ends the word.

@DavidCarlisle :)

it works, then I add the %!TEX comment and it submits each block twice in the same form, which is er less than ideal

@MarcelKrüger it is a bit of pain. The question came from here tex.stackexchange.com/q/545274/2388. But I don't have an idea what to do here, apart from saying to use the babel shorthands.

@yo' thanks got it working