07:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00

7:36 AM
@GeekestGeek doesn't really matter here, but \c_zero_int will be a micro second faster :)

7:54 AM
quack
> New Windows 10 Update Permanently Removes Adobe Flash
There's a hidden Easter egg since the first release of texdoc-online from the Island of TeX: we have a cute 404 error handling page. :)
(Expecting a PR from @DavidCarlisle suggesting a text improvement: "but do not despair. It will soon be lunchtime." oh no)

8:43 AM
@PauloCereda I thought "dinner is almost ready"

9:03 AM
@PauloCereda ???

9:18 AM
> LaTeX2e <2021-05-01> pre-release-0

@PauloCereda how about "Oops, the duck you were looking for cannot be found. But dinner is almost ready!"

@Skillmon oh no
@Skillmon oh no
@JosephWright dunno, not a Windows user :)

@DavidCarlisle @DavidCarlisle I don't think that's it, the \ignorespaces does work. I also tested only adding \noindent to the hook and that causes the same issue. Looks like I'll have to somehow reproduce this in an MWE..

9:43 AM
@schtandard \noindent isn't usually (ever) the best way to suppress indentation after something anyway, \@afterheading is usually better

10:18 AM
@Skillmon I could enclose the message in a \ducksay thingy ooooooh

@PauloCereda 22 to go but can you complete that as it will soon be lunchtime

@DavidCarlisle oh no

10:40 AM
@PauloCereda well, that would be a cowsay-thingy most likely (that would be easier to script and doesn't require as much resources as it directly returns the characters you could print in a typewriter font). I can write a cow-file for the duck (but I think you could do that as well, cow-files have a really simple syntax).

@Skillmon moo
<3

10:52 AM
ubuntu@ip-172-31-12-203:~$latex-dev \\stop This is pdfTeX, Version 3.14159265-2.6-1.40.21 (TeX Live 2020) (preloaded format=latex-dev) restricted \write18 enabled. entering extended mode LaTeX2e <2021-05-01> pre-release-0 (develop 2020-10-29 branch) L3 programming layer <2020-10-27> xparse <2020-03-03> No pages of output. Transcript written on texput.log. ubuntu@ip-172-31-12-203:~$
@JosephWright ^

@DavidCarlisle Yup, same here

@JosephWright yes that's latexcgi not here though:-) (also, see skype)

@DavidCarlisle eek Ubuntu
@DavidCarlisle eek Skype

@PauloCereda ubuntu seems to be the linux distribution of choice for services offering linux vm.

@DavidCarlisle Cool

10:56 AM
@DavidCarlisle have fun with Snaps and flatpaks. :)

@PauloCereda I have avoided flat thingy and I keep trying to work out if it's safe to use apt to uninstall snap to free up some space but I haven't dared yet

@DavidCarlisle I think it's safe. :)

11:48 AM
4

ooh sheep
@Plergux yaaaay

@PauloCereda A SHEEPS

@PauloCereda Yeah, I was messing around with a document I'm making for my son and realised there was no sheep in \ducksay :p So I quickly remedied that. :p

@JosephWright One thing is for sure, the sheep is not a creature of the air.
@Plergux ooh :)

@Plergux Baaa
I speak almost as many languages as @DavidCarlisle

11:51 AM
It has enormous difficulty with the relatively simple act of perching!
Baaaa!
Splat!

@Plergux What you need there is a vache ...

@Plergux ooh

@Plergux Eeek

@JosephWright ooh we need one of those thingies that throw other thingies

@PauloCereda Boing

11:52 AM
@JosephWright /quacks in French
coin coin

@PauloCereda quacks in icelandic
bra bra

@Plergux OH MY
We could write a Lady Gaga song with these quacks in other languages :)
OH MY ANDREW IS HERE
@AndrewStacey I bid you welcome, kind sir!

Fetcher la vasche!
*bbbboooinnngg*
RUN AWAYYYY!!

We need a theory of the sheep
Similar to the theory of the brontos
:)

@PauloCereda Hi Paulo, just a drive by really.

11:56 AM
@AndrewStacey Nice seeing you around! We miss you. :)

@PauloCereda The sheep is smooth at one end, very very fluffy in the middle, and then smooth again at the other end. :p
2

@Plergux YES
@JosephWright ^^

@PauloCereda Don't really have time for chat anymore - but it's half term this week so I have a smidgeon more time than usual. And by not being here yesterday I've caused more hassle than if I had been with the pgfpages & geometry question ....

Maintenant, le mouton ... le landing ... les wheels, bon.

@DavidCarlisle Hmm, I don't think that works for me. After a good night's sleep, my problem isn't so mysterious any more, though. I still don't know how to best solve it, but I made it a proper question.

12:14 PM
@schtandard ooh a mystery
So Pokémon Sword/Shield is based on the United Kingdom?!

12:40 PM
2
@PauloCereda ^^ Chocopasta

@UlrikeFischer OH MY
Chocolateeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

@PauloCereda Yup. It's one of those no-win situations. I don't have time to keep up with everything in the LaTeX eco-system, and I certainly don't expect the LaTeX team to notify package maintainers when there's an update that might break something.

@AndrewStacey @UlrikeFischer Did a couple of sweeps, so did Frank, but of course we missed things :(

@AndrewStacey well we did try: we notified quite a number of package maintainers over the summer. And I was just writing an issue for pgfmorepages (we realized this morning, that pgfmorepages doesn't load pgfpages, but rewrites it) when I saw your answer.
@PauloCereda and now the next step: is it "der Bär und der Schokolade", "der Bär und die Schokolade", "die Bär und der Schokolode" or "die Bär und die Schokolade"?

@UlrikeFischer ooh hold on

12:49 PM
@PauloCereda perfectly wrong ;-)

@UlrikeFischer oh no

@UlrikeFischer There have been a few times where I've been caught out by updates to LaTeX, or L3, breaking one or other of my packages. I absolutely do not expect the team to grep through the entirety of CTAN looking for potential breaks. But on the other hand, I find it a little frustrating when the breakage is pointed out here (as that is often where it is) and there's a comment or other about how "That isn't how it ought to have been done" (ctd)
(ctd) without at least some acknowledgement that at the time, that might well have been the only way it could have been done.
So I have some really horrible code in the hobby package which implements an array structure in L3. That is now totally redundant and should be replaced because there is now \seq_item:Nn for accessing a specific term in a sequence. Unfortunately, when I wrote hobby then that wasn't there, so to have something that worked I had to implement it.
It absolutely wouldn't be how I would do it today, and I recognise and applaud the LaTeX team's goal of streamlining the inner workings to get rid of a large number of hacks that have built up over time. But until we get to the end goal, some of those hacks are going to need to be maintained and kept at least sort-of working until they can be gracefully replaced.
So I absolutely didn't mean my "answer" to be taken as either a solution or a criticism of the amazing work that you are all doing. And my 18th Century joke was meant as acknowledgement of that since a common complaint about TeX is that it is stuck in the 1970s and never been updated - I hoped that 18th C would be far enough back to make it obviously an appreciating joke.
But it was meant as "If you are about to send a paper off to the journal and need a fix for this right now, here's something that will work." as quite often that's the situation an asker is in.

I think I will go full plain TeX until 2020 ends. :)
4

1:05 PM
@PauloCereda You just don't want to maintain all those latex and latex-dev rules for arara ;)

@TeXnician shhhhhh :)
@TeXnician cannot wait for people yell at us for breaking their rules. :D

@AndrewStacey All totally fair

@AndrewStacey certainly. But this is not the point here. You could see from my comment that we planed to fix it. You had enough time to delve into the code, to find a fix, upload it to your github and write a long answer. Why didn't you find the time to ask us a short question if this will clash with our fix and what our timeline is?

Nah, arara is awesome because there's awesome people behind it, specially this guy here: @TeXnician. We wouldn't be here if it weren't him. So listen up, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, ducks and mallards, bears and penguins, even ostriches: an awesome community is made of friends. The Island of TeX exists because of @TeXnician! <3
2

@UlrikeFischer In retrospect, that would have been a good idea and I'm trying to acknowledge that! But I didn't plan to do what I did. I had a look at the code to see what was going on to try to understand the question. I then played around with it a bit to see if I could use the existing hooks to fix it. After realising that I couldn't, I thought it at least worth writing up what I'd found out. I thought that my italic comment at the start made it clear that this was not a long-term solution (ctd)
I also didn't want to get caught in the crossfire between L3 and pgf. To be honest, I felt that several of the comments on the question had been of a tone that I didn't want to step between (from both sides).
Your comment on the question mentioned a package called firstaid. To my mind, this also doesn't speak of a long-term solution but of a quick fix while a proper solution gets found. So, clearly wrongly, I misread what the LaTeX teams intentions were with respect to this. There didn't seem to be any urgency in the comments.
My intention was just to say "While something proper gets sorted out, here's something that will at least work.".

1:23 PM
@AndrewStacey I think there's a need to communicate clearly about the cases where something gets added to firstaid: the intention was to avoid individual authors needing to issue urgent fixes ('the team break stuff, we fix it'), but at least here that's not worked out. At least in part that stems from \shipout being particularly hard to handle

@AndrewStacey I know that you didn't plan it. But I wished people would stop for minute and consider if it is really needed to publish in a hurry a short term solution with potential to do harm in the future. This hacks have a tendency to be used regardless how many warnings you add before them. And in a year some question pops up "I'm using the hack from this answer in this local class and now it breaks ...". And then it is probably not you who will have to handle this.

@UlrikeFischer And so I've deleted the actual code. But this has always been an issue on this site. Someone comes here asking a question because they need an answer right there and then. Sometimes there's an immediate answer that solves the problem for that person and allows them to move on, but which isn't a good long-term thing to have on the site. That's the tension we deal with when answering.
3

@AndrewStacey Very true

27 mins ago, by Paulo Cereda
I think I will go full plain TeX until 2020 ends. :)
^^ THIS

@AndrewStacey yes I know. And if the OP had written anything about time pressure, I would have helped with some temporary fix myself yesterday. But there is nothing in the comments or the question that indicates that the fix is needed urgently.

1:31 PM
@UlrikeFischer, @AndrewStacey As I said, I think there needs to be some thought about communicating the ideas used in firstaid: we all want users to be unaffected by changes, I think we also all see the need for the changes, it's a question of managing different people's effort

Let's hide in Frank's garden

@PauloCereda I don't buy this, pal :-)

@yo' <3

1:59 PM
@AndrewStacey hi Andrew, Chris thought I was sounding rude/aggressive when asking about the 18th centry, so if I was my apologies ... wasn't intended as such ... more being concerned that you expressed your believe that we made a big step backwards.

OH MY FRANK IS HERE

@PauloCereda no hiding in his garden (whatever that was about :-) )

@FrankMittelbach ooh a secret place with good internet connection. :)

@AndrewStacey somehting else ... I was hunting for an email address of you and ended up finding stacey@math.ntnu.no in the module repository list ... guess that needs an update, doesn't it?

@FrankMittelbach Hi Frank, thanks for stepping by. I didn't want to further clutter up the comments there so didn't respond further there. I was actually aiming for a compliment to the team! It was intended as a riff on the oft-heard complaint that (La)TeX is stuck in the past and I wanted to say that you were bringing it more up to date, so the intention was to imply that original-LaTeX was even older than 18th C.
So, again, my apologies for it not coming out right. You (all) have my utmost admiration for what you are doing with overhauling the LaTeX code and I don't envy the balancing act that you are doing with it between the needs of the past and the future.
@FrankMittelbach Yup, that's old! The redirections should still get to me from that, but better to use loopspace@mathforge.org. I do change it when I notice it - where did you find that?

2:07 PM
@AndrewStacey thanks for the compliment then. Yeah I got it that it could be read both ways ... it is just that with us moving again (and I think on the whole in a good direction I rather sensitive about statements like "breaking tons of package" (not by you) or ... in your case implicit compliments that can be read as a complaint if you are already feeling that way.
@AndrewStacey it does not go back to you, it came back to me as a failure. And it is in the prefix registry for expl3 prefixes

@FrankMittelbach Ah, they've obviously finally realised that I no longer work there! Sorry to be an ignoramus about this, but I vaguely remember someone saying something about expl3 prefixes and that I should be added to them in the right places, but I don't think it was me that did it so I don't know where to go to correct it.
@FrankMittelbach Yeah, I can see that.

@AndrewStacey if you tell us what to replace it with we can certainly do this, it sits in the l3kernel sources
@AndrewStacey so loopspace@mathforge.org?

@FrankMittelbach Yes, use that one. That's linked to a domain that I've registered so isn't dependent (or linked to) any employment I may or may not have! (Though if I end up without employment at some point I may not be able to keep up the payments ... but we'll let that worry sit in the corner and not bother us for the time being!)

2:26 PM
@AndrewStacey actually it is gone from there ... and the entries are empty -- seems these days we try to put github or other repositories in ... perhaps you can take a look and descide what should be there. it is in latex3/l3kernel/l3prefixes.csv

Ah, that's from hobby. So the urls are:
Source: github.com/loopspace/hobby
Issue Tracker: github.com/loopspace/hobby/issues
Homepage: github.com/loopspace/hobby
(That's also related to legacy code that needs re-writing to remove the array stuff since it can now all be done with seq.)
Oooo .... fparray looks like it might be easier to use as a replacement than seq.

2:45 PM
@AndrewStacey done

@FrankMittelbach Thank you! (Now if only that referred to refactoring my code to remove the array stuff in the first place ...)

@AndrewStacey no way :-)

3:02 PM
@Plergux PR?
@AndrewStacey please don't shoot at me (wasn't that the meaning of drive by?)

@Skillmon What do yo mean PR? I would assume Public Relations, but can't quite see how that fits here :p

@Plergux pull request. It's what you do if you want to see changes in software hosted on Github :) It boils down to: You write code and send it to me.

@Skillmon Ah, I see :) Let's see if I remember that Git course. :p

@Skillmon ooh Power Rangers
oh wait
@Skillmon ooh rabbit code

@Plergux you don't have to. Just put the code here and I'll go figure. Any special acknowledgement?
@PauloCereda Go go Puull Requeeest!

3:15 PM
@Skillmon OH MY I JUST READ THAT TO THE TUNE OF THAT SONG

@PauloCereda and that was totally not what I intended... :)

{ \ _,_,_,_,_,
\ .:( ,) ),
(__, (, ),
/ o ( ,) ,) )>
(___(, (, ,)
(, ,) ,)
-_,---_,-'
|| || }%=<<
oh no! it's a mess XD

@Plergux oh no

@Plergux you have to hit the fixed font button (it blobs up next to upload when you paste chunks of lines, if it doesn't add a space at the end and delete it, then it should be there)

@Skillmon ah, ok. I'll try again...
{ \ _,_,_,_,_,
\ .:( ,) ),
(__, (, ),
/ o ( ,) ,) )>
(___(, (, ,)
(, ,) ,)
-_,---_,-'
|| || }%=<<
O.o
\AddAnimal{sheep}%>>=
{   \           _,_,_,_,_,
\      .:(  ,)      ),
(__,    (,     ),
/ o (  ,)     ,) )>
(___(,      (,   ,)
(,   ,)    ,)
-_,---_,-'
||   || }%=<<
There we go XD

3:17 PM
@Plergux there you go :)

That was painful :|

@Plergux had the same issues the first time :)

ooh that's a cute sheep

@PauloCereda Thank you! I tried to make it extra fluffy :p

ooh I have an idea: we could use microtype and use \textls to steal sheep (@egreg)

3:25 PM
@Plergux is moving the bubble-tail closer to the sheep's head (well, actually moving the sheep more left) fine for you, or should I include it as is? How should I acknowledge your creation? A footnote in the documentation, a comment in the sources, something more standing out?

@Skillmon I think making it more compact (bubble tail and sheep closer) would be better. :) As for acknowledgement, I don't know. Whatever is least work for you :p

@Plergux that would be comment in the sources (where nobody ever sees this :)
@Plergux but seriously, I think I should somehow make acknowledgements more standing out (well, you're the first one directly contributing an animal, so the need just wasn't there yet).
@Plergux is your SO user name fine?

@Skillmon O.O really?! Yes, my user name is fine :) A comment in the source? Honestly, I have no idea :p If I was adding stuff from someone else into something I'd done I'd probably put a comment.

@Skillmon ooh make the sheep announce the names

@Plergux well, in the TeX world it is pretty comment to give thanks in the documentation. I think I have an idea.

3:36 PM
@PauloCereda (^_^)b

I wonder if sheep sleep by counting cows
Omahaaaaaaa.... Somewhere in middle America...
Oh wait, these are the Counting Crows, not Counting Cows
Apologies
@AlanMunn ^^
Today I am idioter than the usual

@Skillmon WOOOOOO
Sheepzes
This sheep is soooo cute
@samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz ^^ do we have sheep in TikZlings?
@JosephWright I dare you to tweet /baa and see what happens
:)

3:52 PM
@PauloCereda we have a duck sheep

@Skillmon ERMAGERD! so pretty sheep XD

@Plergux it's your pretty sheep :)
@Plergux but what does "ERMAGERD" mean?

@Skillmon It's a meme thing = "Oh my god" in a very very excited manner. :p

@Plergux oh, didn't know that one

3:55 PM
@Skillmon "ooh" is shorter :)

@Plergux youtube.com/watch?v=j8EFVDq0crs :s/unicorn/sheep/g

@Skillmon XD
@Skillmon Unicorn sheep is real and lives in Iceland :p dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4443814/…

4:12 PM

@PauloCereda s/cute/tasty/

@DavidCarlisle Are there any specific holes in MathJax w.r.t LaTeX mathmode? Is there a description anywhere of the stuff it can't render?
@DavidCarlisle I'm trying to convince someone that although anything that MathJax can render can be converted into actual LaTeX, in the other direction it's not the case even for math.

@AlanMunn there is a list it can: docs.mathjax.org/en/latest/input/tex/macros/index.html as it can't really understand tex it basically can't do any package unless someone writes a javascript emulation of that package, but the emulation of the commands it does emulate is usually quite good

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I've seen that list; I was hoping for the complement set... :)

@DavidCarlisle oh no

4:24 PM
@AlanMunn so for example it has fairly good support for amsmath but not so much mathtools or unicode-math

> Microsoft now lets you bring your own data types to Excel

@AlanMunn the complement is the uncountable list of strings consisting of ascii letters prefixed with \  :-)

@DavidCarlisle Ok, yes, that's more like what I'm after.

@DavidCarlisle is kerning supported? Or overlap?

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I was just about to say "not literally", but luckily your pragmatics kicked in before your snark. :)

4:26 PM
@AlanMunn basiclly if the package name isn't on that page it's almost certain it won't work

@PauloCereda Yay, and Excel got slower again :)

@AlanMunn you know me?

@DavidCarlisle :)

@DavidCarlisle He's working in linguistics, of course he knows you!

@Skillmon LOL

4:27 PM
@PauloCereda can we have clists and seq ?

@DavidCarlisle bah L3 will never catch on

@DavidCarlisle Unfortunately the list is of commands not packages. Is there a supported package list somewhere?

@PauloCereda take a look at the code of ducksay...

@Skillmon ooh

@AlanMunn oh so it is it used to have packages (I think) now it just has ams and physics which seems a bit vague

4:30 PM
@Skillmon ooh expl3

@AlanMunn but has mhchem so I suspect it is packages really except ams ==amsmath

@DavidCarlisle Yes, that seems most likely.

@AlanMunn hmm

@DavidCarlisle So I think they're using package here to mean the js libraries that implement the commands, not the actual package per se.

@ pgfmath
I could need some (numbered) placeholders of the kind
a1=11, a2=22, a3=33

is this the correct way to define them:
\documentclass[tikz]{standalone}
\begin{document}
\tikzset{
declare function={
a1=11;
a2=22;
a3=33;
},
}
\pgfmathparse{a2}\pgfmathresult
\end{document}

4:51 PM
Is there a guide to when to use {\tstyle foo} style commands and when to use \textt{foo} style if a package provides both of them?
Trying to figure out hte best way to turn all numbers in a table to be tabular style

@Canageek in a table I'd go for \tstyle. The \text... variants are for short portions of text (read: just a few words), not for an environment in which everything should be using this. A big difference is that the \text... macros are defined short, so they can't span across paragraphs.

Cool, that is what I figured
What defines the END of such a macro? Where do I need to put it to get all the text in a table?

@Canageek the scope of the group. So I'd use something like \begingroup\textt\begin{tabular}...\end{tabular}\endgroup (I prefer to use the easier to spot and more prominent \begingroup...\endgroup construct over putting those things in braces, but that is more or less the same as {\textt\begin{tabular}...\end{tabular}}).
@Canageek If this should apply to every tabular in your document, you could use \AddToHook{env/tabular/begin}{\tstyle}.

5:11 PM
@Skillmon Oh heck yes, I'll give that a try.
Wait, could I do that with figures and \centering? I centre every figure anyway...

@Canageek this requires LaTeX release 2020-10-01 or newer though.
@Canageek yes, should be possible.

@Skillmon Time to run tlmgr I guess

@Skillmon @Canageek no, that doesn't work. The hook is to early for this.

@UlrikeFischer oh :( (I haven't tested)

@Skillmon I did ;-) (but already some time ago).

5:17 PM
@UlrikeFischer But of course, since figure does typeset into a box with standard formatting... /Stupid rabbit

@Skillmon but you could do
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{etoolbox}
\makeatletter
\makeatother

\begin{document}
\begin{figure}
blub
\end{figure}

\begin{table}
blub
\end{table}
\end{document}

@UlrikeFischer I think it would be more efficient to use \apptocmd{\@floatboxreset}{\def\@tempa{figure}\ifx\@tempa\@currenvir\centering\fi}{}{\fail}.
(well, if a document uses a single figure and 1000 tables, that thought is wrong :)

@UlrikeFischer Ah, OK. So I'll have to add \textt each time and can't auto center, that should be fine

5:43 PM
@PhelypeOleinik go for that answer :)

@Skillmon Okay :)
@Skillmon Oh, file extensions... /flashbacks

@Canageek Well, adding it to tabular should definitely work (tabular doesn't reset any fonts, iirc). The "problem" is that floats (like figure) reset the fonts locally so that the place where you used that float in the code doesn't have any effect on the float itself. That's why \centering doesn't work.
@PhelypeOleinik :)
@Canageek and that's also why @UlrikeFischer proposed patching \@floatboxreset, as that is the macro which does all the font and formatting restores to the document's standards. So after everything was normalised, we can again change it, e.g., by adding \centering. She does that in the env/figure/begin hook because this way it only affects figures and no other floats.

(removed too)

(removed as well)

@PhelypeOleinik XeTeX likes being shouted at.

5:56 PM
@Skillmon .WHAT?

(removed again)

(:%g/.*/d)

ooh

@PauloCereda we could as well use read-mail with the command line parameter really-fast.

ooh

5:59 PM
@Skillmon Wait, does it? The list is .png,.PNG,.jpg,.JPG

@PhelypeOleinik admittedly the situation is a bit more complex. It prefers being shouted at "PDF" over "png", etc. And unlike the other engines, it supports artificial intelligence.

@Skillmon Oh, AI :)
@Skillmon Ah, got it. I was thinking png vs. PNG, not two different extensions. That's strange, actually (to me)...

what are you speaking about ??

@PhelypeOleinik actually, it isn't. I think what the others are doing is strange. The priority shouldn't be casing dependent (well, as casing independent as possible), imho.
@UlrikeFischer the graphics .def for the different engines.
1

I'm reading the tutorial on LaTeX by overleaf, and in their section Adding Images they have some example code: \documentclass{article} \usepackage{graphicx} \graphicspath{ {images/} } \begin{document} The universe is immense and it seems to be homogeneous, in a large scale, everywhere we look ...

Another funny thing: pdfTeX doesn't like the shout out "MPS".
And dvips is more the shy type.

@Skillmon Yeah, that. I meant the difference in behaviour as a whole. If I build a document with another engine it may include a different image

6:08 PM
@PhelypeOleinik @DavidCarlisle and his buggy hidden-feature-infested code.

@Skillmon Good thing almost nobody uses graphics these days :-)

Hm. Being on a case insensitive system I can't really test this. For me PDF wins before png.

@UlrikeFischer that's a Windows bug hidden feature BUG
The list of starred messages favours me today :)

@UlrikeFischer How insensitive!
2
/ba dum tsss

@PhelypeOleinik actually loved it (and the late /ba dum tsss made it even better)

6:12 PM
@Skillmon :)

Got a nice one this time (except for that pesky comma)

@Skillmon and what happens actually for you? kpsewhich is case insensitive too imho, at least sometimes (I have forgotten the details).

@UlrikeFischer it was made a few months ago, iirc, and I remember objecting it, because just because one of the big OSes has a serious shortcoming, LaTeX shouldn't share that shortcoming. Windows users deserve no sympathy :)

@Skillmon it wasn't made for windows users. We have already case insensitivity. It was made for the poor linux users, which constantly get code from me with \includegraphics{example-image-A} which then errors ...

@UlrikeFischer no valid reason. Windows users still deserve no sympathy! In short, we others were punished for the shortcomings of Windows.
@UlrikeFischer /rant

6:24 PM
@Canageek For data files? \pgfplotsset{/table/search path={<comma separated list of paths>}}, tex.stackexchange.com/a/286886 (in case you hadn't found that yet ..)

@UlrikeFischer in other news: it is still case sensitive for me... :)

@Skillmon you mean PDF is found later? Also for files in the texmf-tree?

@UlrikeFischer that I didn't test yet

@Skillmon but even then, I'm not sure if it would be right to move PDF before png, it means an (always unnecessary on windows, often unnecessary on linux) additional file look up, before png is tried.

@Plergux -- Dessine-moi un mouton?

6:35 PM
@UlrikeFischer well, png should be avoided anyway :) (jokingly, I get your point)
 LaTeX Error: File example-image-A' not found.
@UlrikeFischer ^^^

@Skillmon ^^ my new vim setup :)
ooh vim

@barbarabeeton Mouton pour vous :p

6:54 PM
@PauloCereda curses version of cowsay? Or how did you get that pretty looking bubble?

@PauloCereda -- Every time we see a sign "Covid testing" (and there are a lot of them around here), we misread it "Corvid testing". (Must be a lot of old crows.)

@Plergux I think it is time to change your profile pic.

@DavidCarlisle What is the reasoning on the order of graphics extensions (if there is one)?

@Skillmon :p

@Plergux -- Merci bien! Tres aimable."

7:09 PM
@Skillmon feature full you meant to say
@PhelypeOleinik not a lot, mainly just listing what the various systems supported at the time

Cultural question: How many LaTeX developers here come from computer science versus other disciplines?

@DavidCarlisle plus giving pdf priority.
@LaTeXereXeTaL who do you consider a LaTeX developer? Only kernel team?

@Skillmon Yes I had the kernel team in mind (still learning the terminology).

@DavidCarlisle Ah, okay. THanks

@LaTeXereXeTaL I think the official term isn't kernel team either :)

7:13 PM
@Skillmon I'm still very nervous about merely being here. LOL

@LaTeXereXeTaL you don't have to. Except for @DavidCarlisle we're all friendly. @DavidCarlisle eats ducks, so he isn't so friendly. But considering you're a purple square, I think you should be safe.

@Skillmon Oh yes I learned very quickly about @DavidCarlisle's culinary preferences (e.g. crispy duck pancakes, duck soup, etc.)
Quite a menagerie in here today with sheep and all. A flock of sheep live next door to me, along with goats and chickens.

@LaTeXereXeTaL and being here is the fastest way of loosing weeks of your life to coding in an esoteric macro expansion language. So stay here, sit on the couch and make yourself at home :)

@Skillmon Oh I watch and listen carefully...and take notes.
4

@LaTeXereXeTaL been a while since I saw that one :)

7:24 PM
@Skillmon not only duck, rabbit as well

@DavidCarlisle we share some culinary traits it seems :)

I suppose sushi is about as wild as I get.

@LaTeXereXeTaL define "come from"

@DavidCarlisle uh, uh, I know: You come from the UK!

@DavidCarlisle "come from" as in mathematics, physics, computer science, typography, art, publishing, farming, real estate, etc.

7:28 PM
@Skillmon no I was more thinking of if I have a degree and phd in mathematics but spent a few years in computer science post docs (writing latex2e, mostly:-) do I "come from" computer science or is that somewhere I just passed along the way.
@LaTeXereXeTaL ^

@DavidCarlisle I guess I'm thinking academic disciplines but hesitated to say it because I realize it's not necessary to come from academia.

@DavidCarlisle :)
@LaTeXereXeTaL you could try to stalk them. The names can be found: latex-project.org/about/team

@LaTeXereXeTaL I studied engineering in college, but TeX has this strange power of getting people to not do what they are supposed to

7:45 PM
@LaTeXereXeTaL I'm not part of the team :( (but I studied engineering)

@Skillmon you have to use emacs

@DavidCarlisle so I'll never be part of the team?

@DavidCarlisle Ha!
@DavidCarlisle Better not mention @UlrikeFischer using WinEdt ...

@LaTeXereXeTaL I've brought you a couch:

Or me using TeXworks

7:46 PM

@JosephWright newcomers... emacs was taken as given, the divide was those using rmail mode and those using vm mode to read email in emacs

@DavidCarlisle so that's why expl3` was consider stable so late.

@DavidCarlisle I guess you, Frank, Chris, Rainer, Alan?
@DavidCarlisle Robin?
@Skillmon :)

@JosephWright poor guys, looking at their screen, knowing they should be writing code, but don't manage to find an editor.

@Skillmon But they could at least quit

7:57 PM
@JosephWright unfortunately, quitting doesn't finish code.

@JosephWright + Johannes

@DavidCarlisle Ah, right: I knew I was missing someone

@DavidCarlisle and @JosephWright what about Bruno?

@Skillmon far too young

07:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00