TeX, LaTeX and Friends

@DavidCarlisle but it should be $1000000 :( And writing a programming language (or stuff like that) only to solve that one specific question is forbidden at our CodeGolf cousins.

CarLaTeX

11:42 AM

@DavidCarlisle It's not the latitude, it's the altitude :):):)

David Carlisle

Aug 17 at 19:42, by egreg

@DavidCarlisle The month is long yet.

@marmot ^^^^^^

marmot

@DavidCarlisle I guess that is a time dependent statement. On August 17 it was true, and in a few days it will be true again... ;-) This was before I awarded a bounty of 500 ... ;-)

David Carlisle

@marmot by the way, where were you? I had two weeks in the Alps and didn't see you at all.

marmot

@DavidCarlisle I am in the rockies these days.... ;-)

David Carlisle

3:18 PM

@TeXnician i never mistyp anything

TeXnician

@DavidCarlisle Of course not :)

@DavidCarlisle Much more interesting: texdoc default opens the beamerthemeverona manual for me…

David Carlisle

@TeXnician who wants to read doc anyway? more `kpsewhich default.sty` is your friend

TeXnician

@DavidCarlisle Absolutely, except you misspell the file name. The doc request was more out of interest and I had not expected the manual for that beamer theme.

David Carlisle

@TeXnician I'm sure texdoc texdoc explains how it chooses what to show (not that I have read it of course:-)

@Zarko was in Ljubljana airport on Wednesday, far from you?

Zarko

hi! it seems that on the way is a down voter:-(. i just experienced 10 down votes in one minute and after ten minutes later one more ...

David Carlisle

3:28 PM

@Zarko You can ask that the staff look at it

Zarko

@CarLaTeX, one hour by car on the high-way (if traffic is normal). do you plan to visit Slovenia?

David Carlisle

@Zarko was that aimed at me? :-) No we were coming home from Austria but flew from there

Zarko

@DavidCarlisle, i line in Maribor, it is on the way from Graz (80km from Maribor) to Ljubljana (120 km from Maribor). how you planed to travel?

David Carlisle

@Zarko we had a minibus/taxi from Bad Kleinkirchheim to the airport, so you are some way further east it seems:-)

Zarko

@DavidCarlisle, ups, my message before has to many spelling errors. Maribor (MB) lie on the way from Graz to Ljubljana. yes, it is more to the the east. i suppose that you will travel through Klagenfurt (Celovec in Slovene) and tunnel "Karavanke". Do you plan to make short stay in Ljubljana?

David Carlisle

3:45 PM

@Zarko we were there last week so no plans now, back to work here yesterday (after two and a half weeks off:( yes we came through that tunnel, the stay in Ljubljana was about 2 hours, to check in:-) (actually I have visited Slovenia in previous years (lake Bohinj and 2 years ago Kranjska Gora) but both times never saw any of Ljubljana outside the airport:-)

Zarko

let me know, if you will able to manage to have more time. I can come to Brniki (Ljubljana airport) and go with you to short trip to our capital (half an hour drive). center of city is quit interesting ...

@DavidCarlisle, ups, i miss understood you. you already fly to home. over summer i wasn't in Slovenia. i come home yesterday.

Nasser

This is not about latex itself, but thought some here might now. Given small text file which contains mathml of a math expression (presentation mathml). What is the easiest way to convert this to either an image or to a pdf file? I looked at number of tools, but they are too complicated and requires too many pieces of software to install and figure how to use.

Here is an example from Maple:

expr:=sin(x);
MathML:-ExportPresentation(expr);
"<math xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML'><mrow><mi>sin<\
  /mi><mo>&ApplyFunction;</mo><mfenced><mi>x</mi></mfenced></mro\
  w></math>"

I want to convert the above string to an image. The reason is, Maple latex conversion is bad. So I am thinking of using its MathML (which looks much better) when rendered.

Zarko

4:01 PM

do any else experience down votes? now i receive three up votes for 3 points on some my old questions. how to ask staff to look what is going on?

Nasser

I tried on Linux, this:
>mathmlsvg --version
MathML to SVG converter - written by Luca Padovani (C) 2005
Based on GtkMathView 0.8.0
but it is old and it failed on simple tests.

David Carlisle

@Zarko next time perhaps (we usually end up somewhere near there most summers:-)

@Nasser you could use my old xsl, github.com/davidcarlisle/web-xslt/tree/master/pmml2tex or use mathjax's rendering or you could use Word of course, which can also render MathML

Nasser

@DavidCarlisle I am looking for an automated tool, since this will be part of script. No interactive. I will save the mathml to a file, run some command which converts the file to an image or pdf file, then include that as image in latex. But all of this need to be done as batch script. Will look at your old SXL. I never used XSL. Is it something that can run as a command line?

Zarko

@DavidCarlisle, you are very welcome. let me know before summer, that i can adopt my plans for summer. during summer most of the time i'm with my family on the island Pag (Croatia), where we have small house.

David Carlisle

@Nasser yes as that is xslt 1 code you can use libxslt which you most likely have already on linux

Nasser

4:20 PM

@DavidCarlisle thanks., Will look more into it. Any thing would be better than Maple to Latex conversion :)

David Carlisle

4:30 PM

@Nasser it didn't use to be so bad (although I have not had access to maple for 10 years at least)

Nasser

@DavidCarlisle Maple to Latex conversion has many bugs :(, Here is one example of many stackoverflow.com/questions/51726051/… I think Maplesoft do not maintain its Latex conversion any more. They have their own stuff they use for math, which I never understood. I hope they fix their Latex one day, but I am not holding my breath waiting for this to happen.

Nasser

5:17 PM

@DavidCarlisle I found a way. Using Mathematica's Mathml support. Here I show the steps fyi: stackoverflow.com/questions/52086679/… Mathematica' Latex conversion is better than Maple's.

Ulrike Fischer

@CarLaTeX no umbrellas or boots needed, it was only a bit cloudy ;-) vvvv

2

David Carlisle

5:50 PM

@Nasser moving code between mathematica and maple was one of the original motivations for mathml (and openmath) :-)

CarLaTeX

6:44 PM

@UlrikeFischer You were lucky early morning today it rained a lot :):):) Let's cross fingers for tomorrow!

@Zarko Don't confuse Carl-atex with Carl-isle :):):) one is a duck, the other is a duck-eater

AndréC

7:18 PM

Hi samcarter, i'm here !

Hi @samcarter i'm here

samcarter

@AndréC Hi

AndréC

@samcarter Yes, by commenting this slide, the compilation works and the pdf is produced. Last week I compiled the 24 slides without any problems!

samcarter

@AndréC OK, now put the slide back in and only comment where you use the image toit-Gray_hotel_de_ville. Does it still work?

AndréC

@samcarter No, it still doesn't work!

manooooh

@UlrikeFischer that bear is attracting all the attention!

Hi @CarLaTeX

samcarter

7:22 PM

@AndréC Then try to subsequently uncomment the content of the slide to narrow down the source of the problem.

AndréC

@samcarter But also commenting the following, it works roof_cathédrale_langres-eps-converted-to

manooooh

I would know why some people are rejecting the translated-words from English to Spanish (e.g. mod a instead of mód a, lim instead of lím, and so on)

samcarter

@AndréC So it looks like there is a problem with converting theses images to pdf (which is necessary because compiling with pdflatex cannot use eps directly)

@AndréC Can you share one of the .eps file of the problematic images or do they contain sensitive information?

Ulrike Fischer

@AndréC You shouldn't kill pdflatex when you get an error. Type "x" on your keyboard and then enter, so that the log-file is correctly finished.

manooooh

Why the Latinos have to accept the English style?

AndréC

7:29 PM

@samcarter I found, it is the acute accent that I wrote without realizing it on the name of the image that posed the problem: roof_cathédrale_langres. By renaming this image, everything compiles without problems!
Thank you so much. You're awesome.

manooooh

Btw I know that is more simple to keep the original style because if I want to translate something into Spanish is a bit more tedious

samcarter

@AndréC You're welcome! Have fun with beamer!

AndréC

@UlrikeFischer I did not stop pdflatex, at least not to my knowledge, I compiled with texmaker and it displayed itself that

David Carlisle

@CarLaTeX better to eat than be eaten.

Ulrike Fischer

@manooooh At first math should be readable by everyone and so normally not contain language specific text. In german it would e.g. more logical to write "Lim" instead of "lim" but we are not doing it. Beside this the accents are really problematic as math fonts normally don't have chars with accents. So copy and paste don't work as expected, unless you hack around and use a text font.

David Carlisle

7:34 PM

@manooooh ? who, do you mean spanish speaking mathematicians in general, or users on this site or??

Ulrike Fischer

@AndréC well it looked killed, but if you had an accent it could be that miktex crashed. In such cases it is better to compile on a command line to see what is happening exactly.

AndréC

@UlrikeFischer Okay, if this happens again, I'll compile it on the command line. :)

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle I guessed that @manooooh was referring to a comment of a user of this site under this question tex.stackexchange.com/q/448092/2388 ;-).

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer ah @egreg, he was right for once:-)

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle do you think that the definition of verb should be changed in the format for TU encoding? tex.stackexchange.com/q/448734/2388

David Carlisle

7:41 PM

@UlrikeFischer looks like it.

@UlrikeFischer I left a comment

manooooh

7:58 PM

@UlrikeFischer yes, @DavidCarlisle you're right, it's about the link that @egreg posted in my question, but not only him, but all the people who agree with his position

@UlrikeFischer ok.. I am the user that doesn't like to use "unnoficial" code, i.e. that code which isn't in the "official" packages

Joseph Wright

(6) There have been some extensions to the Lua libraries and some callbacks
have been added. Also, a few new primitives have been introduced. The
documentation mentions the stable extensions.

@DavidCarlisle ^^^

David Carlisle

@JosephWright here we go....

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Guess I'll grab W32TeX version

David Carlisle

@JosephWright test it with your students theses...

barbara beeton

@manooooh -- i wouldn't think that using the english style is necessary unless they're publishing in an english-language journal. (all publishers have their own house rules.)

Joseph Wright

8:08 PM

@DavidCarlisle winword.exe

manooooh

@barbarabeeton yes of course, I need it for educacional purposes, even if I teach students with the PDF outputs made with LaTeX

David Carlisle

@manooooh tex's font setup really assumes that accents in math mode are mathematical operators and not used for textual letters, and latex by default uses the 7-bit OT1 fonts with no accents for math even if you are using the 8-bit T1 encoding for text

manooooh

In that case I think it is not necessary to use English style

David Carlisle

@JosephWright probably better than an IBM golfball

barbara beeton

@manooooh -- just be glad you're not teaching a math class in arabic. there, some things are right-to-left, but some other things are still left-to-right. that's quite a challenge.

manooooh

8:10 PM

@DavidCarlisle oh ya, thanks

barbara beeton

@DavidCarlisle -- i just noticed that in the list of who maintains what packages (tex.meta.stackexchange.com/q/1181 ), amsmath is still claimed for the ams. i think that needs to be changed. what would you like it to say?

manooooh

@barbarabeeton I don't understand. In that case I should translate all math into arabic, right?

David Carlisle

@manooooh which explains why cut and paste is unreliable, you could use T1 fonts for math but that is tricky as so much assumes the weird OT1 layout with uppercase greek in the roman font

@barbarabeeton put ~~@JosephWright so we can blame him.~~ LaTeX3 team, I guess.

2

barbara beeton

@manooooh -- you would follow arabic rules, and those are what defines which direction the various components are set in.

manooooh

@DavidCarlisle yes!! That happens to me when I has enumerate inside another enumerate where the roman fonts changed to uppercase roman letters! That's bad for me :(

David Carlisle

8:15 PM

@manooooh ?? no I meant cut and paste of your spanish accented lim in math mode. enumerate is pure text and math mode fonts should not be involved.

manooooh

@barbarabeeton ok, but that's contradictory with egreg messages

@DavidCarlisle oh

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Breaks font loading ...

@UlrikeFischer Is there an issue still with LuaTeX v1.08 and luaotfload?

David Carlisle

@JosephWright good start

manooooh

@DavidCarlisle so I should not use another set of operators but keep the original

David Carlisle

@JosephWright 1.08 or 1.09

Joseph Wright

8:21 PM

This is LuaTeX, Version 1.08.0 (TeX Live 2018/W32TeX)
 restricted system commands enabled.
(./test.tex
LaTeX2e <2018-04-01> patch level 5
(using write cache: C:/Users/joseph/.texlive2018/texmf-var/luatex-cache/generic
)(using read cache: C:/texlive/2018/texmf-var/luatex-cache/generic C:/Users/jos
eph/.texlive2018/texmf-var/luatex-cache/generic)...xmf-dist/tex/luatex/luaotflo
ad/fontloader-2017-02-11.lua:217: table index is nil
stack traceback:
	...xmf-dist/tex/luatex/luaotfload/fontloader-2017-02-11.lua:217: in main chunk

@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer ^^^

David Carlisle

@manooooh not for me to say, you should do whatever is the normal convention in your community, but textual accents in math mode require a bit of work in tex as the basic design doesn't make them easy.

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright well you need the experimental files with a newer fontloader. Get the texmf folder from github.com/u-fischer/lua-font-pond, activate it with tlmgr conf auxtrees add path/to/texmf and then try again.

David Carlisle

@JosephWright checking out source (experimental branch) again....

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Well, I just add to TEXMFHOME, but looks OK: when's something going to CTAN?

@DavidCarlisle Running tests here in l3kernel and base

David Carlisle

@JosephWright @UlrikeFischer we should probably contact Elie again, and see if @UlrikeFischer can be added to the lualatex gh organisation....

Joseph Wright

8:31 PM

+ bodydirection
+ boxdirection
+ compoundhyphenmode
+ csstring
+ endlocalcontrol
+ exceptionpenalty
+ fixupboxesmode
+ gtoksapp
+ gtokspre
+ ifcondition
+ immediateassigned
+ immediateassignment
+ lateluafunction
+ linedirection
+ luabytecode
+ luabytecodecall
+ luacopyinputnodes
+ luadef
+ luafunctioncall
+ mathdirection
+ mathflattenmode
+ mathrulethicknessmode
+ mathscriptcharmode
+ pagedirection
+ pardirection
+ textdirection
+ xtoksapp
+ xtokspre

@DavidCarlisle ^^^ I'll see which ones are missing in expl3

@DavidCarlisle And what they do! (Some are I think renames)

egreg

@manooooh My opinion is that they're symbols, not abbreviations of words, and they come from Latin, anyway.

Joseph Wright

+ - font_descriptor_objnum_provider
+ - new_graf
+ - page_objnum_provider
+ - wrapup_run
+ - finish_synctex
+ - make_extensible
+ + finish_synctex_callback

@DavidCarlisle ^^^

Ulrike Fischer

@JosephWright Well I promised Javier that we should decide something when I'm back from my holidays. We will have to think about a sensible setup. The open problem is how to regularly update the fontloader (it is done with a luaotfload.conf now, but I'm not sure if this is safe, as other users can have such a conf in der personal trees). The other problem is how to typeset the documentation (there is a makefile, and last time I looked it didn't work on windows).

Joseph Wright

@UlrikeFischer Ah: in the past, before I sorted beamer, I used a VM for that sort of problem

David Carlisle

@UlrikeFischer just looked at doc/Makefile it doesn't really do anything it could easily be l3build or anything

Joseph Wright

8:38 PM

@DavidCarlisle l3build FTW

David Carlisle

@JosephWright my (windows) laptop is busy running make compiling luatex:-)

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle :)

@DavidCarlisle l3kernel tests pass ...

David Carlisle

@JosephWright wow:-)

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Now, how does \bodydirection differ from \bodydir(and so on)?

Ulrike Fischer

@DavidCarlisle If I remember correctly the main problem with the documentation was the dot/graphviz part. Beside this there was code to incorporate the fontloader into luaotfload - this never worked for me, and we probably will have to drop it.

David Carlisle

8:43 PM

@UlrikeFischer to be honest I never really looked hard enough to know what is fontloader and what is luaotfload, what does "incorprate" mean here?

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer \endlocalcontrol???

David Carlisle

We support the \OMEGA\ primitives \orm {textdir}, \orm {pardir}, \orm {pagedir},
\orm {pardir} and \orm {mathdir}. These accept three character keywords. The
primitives that set the direction by number are: \lpr {textdirection}, \lpr
{pardirection}, \lpr {pagedirection} and \lpr {bodydirection} and \lpr
{mathdirection}. When specifying a direction for a box you can use \type {bdir}
instead of \type {dir}.
@JosephWright

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Ah, right

David Carlisle

localcontrol doesn't appear in the manual

Joseph Wright

  Check failed with difference files
  - ../build/test/tlb-callbacks-001.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/tlb-extraprimitives-001.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/tlb-ltluatex-001.luatex.diff
  - ../build/test/tlb-utf8-undec-cp1252.luatex.diff

@DavidCarlisle Hmm, can't find it ...

Ulrike Fischer

8:47 PM

@DavidCarlisle The fontloader is the core part. It is directly copied (and renamed) from context, it works more or less on its own (e.g. in plain). And there is a number of luaotfload wrapper files, e.g. for the database and other stuff. Some code is in both parts and so Philipp created a shortened version of the fontloader.

David Carlisle

@JosephWright it's in my checked out branches/experimental/manual (ie the branch i'm still compiling)

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Ah: I've got the PDF that comes with the W32TeX v1.08 'dev' build

+ bodydirection
+ boxdirection
+ compoundhyphenmode
+ endlocalcontrol
+ fixupboxesmode
+ gtoksapp
+ gtokspre
+ ifcondition
+ immediateassigned
+ immediateassignment
+ lateluafunction
+ linedirection
+ luabytecode
+ luabytecodecall
+ luacopyinputnodes
+ luadef
+ mathdirection
+ mathflattenmode
+ mathrulethicknessmode
+ pagedirection
+ pardirection
+ textdirection
+ xtoksapp
+ xtokspre

@DavidCarlisle ^^^ Not in the v1.08 manual, but defined ...

David Carlisle

@JosephWright oh flip....

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle So which of them do I add to expl3?

David Carlisle

@JosephWright speaking of getting back to compiling tex binaries, \expanded in xetex....

Joseph Wright

8:54 PM

@DavidCarlisle No news :(

David Carlisle

@JosephWright give me a minute, I'll see if any of them make it to the manual I have...

CarLaTeX

@manooooh Hi!

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle Great

CarLaTeX

@DavidCarlisle remember I'm a poisoned duck

David Carlisle

@JosephWright usual chatty "specification"

If you consider the last remark you might realize that we have a problem when a
printed mix of strings, tokens and nodes is reused. Inside \TEX\ the sequence
becomes a linked list of input buffers. So, \type {"123"} or \type {"\foo{123}"}
gets read and parsed on the fly, while \typ {<token userdata>} already is
tokenized and effectively is a token list now. A \typ {<node userdata>} is also
tokenized into a token list but it has a reference to a real node. Normally this
goes fine. But now assume that you store the whole lot in a macro: in that case

endlocalcontrol, fixupboxesmode, gtoksapp, gtokspre, mathrulethicknessmode not in. ifcondition, immediateassign(ed|ment) , lateluafunction, luabytecode(call) luacopyinputnodes, luadef mathdirection, mathflatternmode, pagedirection, pardirection, textdirection in (linedirection not in but I guess same as bodydirection etc)

@JosephWright ^^

Joseph Wright

9:06 PM

@DavidCarlisle OK, will add

@DavidCarlisle Where;s the source?

David Carlisle

$ svn info .
Path: .
Working Copy Root Path: /home/luaexp/luatex
URL: serveur-svn.lri.fr/svn/modhel/luatex/branches/experimental/…
Relative URL: ^/branches/experimental/manual
Repository Root: serveur-svn.lri.fr/svn/modhel/luatex
Repository UUID: 0b2b3880-5936-4365-a048-eb17d2e5a6bf
Revision: 6912
Node Kind: directory
Schedule: normal
Last Changed Author: luigi.scarso@gmail.com
Last Changed Rev: 6906
Last Changed Date: 2018-08-27 11:39:56 +0200 (Mon, 27 Aug 2018)

@JosephWright ^

@JosephWright or github.com/TeX-Live/luatex/tree/experimental/manual

Joseph Wright

9:25 PM

@DavidCarlisle Can't find anything ...

@DavidCarlisle If you get the manual to compile, could you send it?

David Carlisle

@JosephWright yes, 1.09 just compiled so i guess it built the manual, let me see..., which test gave that list of new commands one of the expl3 ones?

@JosephWright you have mail

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle It's the 2e one :) extraprimitives

David Carlisle

@JosephWright ah OK

David Carlisle

9:42 PM

@JosephWright another one in 1.09 (csstring, exceptionpenalty)

+ bodydirection
+ boxdirection
+ compoundhyphenmode
+ csstring
+ endlocalcontrol
+ exceptionpenalty
+ fixupboxesmode
+ gtoksapp
+ gtokspre
+ ifcondition
+ immediateassigned
+ immediateassignment
+ lateluafunction
+ linedirection
+ luabytecode
+ luabytecodecall
+ luacopyinputnodes
+ luadef
+ luafunctioncall
+ mathdirection
+ mathflattenmode
+ mathrulethicknessmode
+ mathscriptcharmode
+ pagedirection
+ pardirection
+ textdirection
+ xtoksapp
+ xtokspre

Joseph Wright

@DavidCarlisle I'd got those: missed them in my edited version

David Carlisle

@JosephWright ok

manooooh

10:11 PM

@DavidCarlisle I know I know, I would really like to read your opinion!

@egreg is the integral \int also a symbol?

@egreg I mean I argue that in a text for example in Spanish where there are the symbols that have an accent and those that do not, in order to standardize the text, everything must be translated into Spanish, except for textual citations of course. But I take into account the native limitations of LaTeX, and as I am in favor of using the least possible resources and trying as much as possible with official packages, I agree with you

@CarLaTeX how's your day?

David Carlisle

@manooooh my inclination would be to not use accents, but since I'm english i'm somewhat biased against accents:-) It is certainly the case that the default math fonts don't make using accents in math as easy as you might hope, but on the other hand you shouldn't change historical cultural conventions just because a computer program doesn't help, it can be made to do what you want.....

manooooh

@DavidCarlisle okay. At least as far as I know there are no historical reasons why I should write everything with an accent, but I thought it would be convenient to translate it into Spanish (be it the accents or the sine function, for example). What really bothers me is reading a PDF document made with LaTeX on the Internet and wanting to copy the word "lím" is copied as "li'm".

As I think it can happen to others and with the risk that lines of code such as those written by @egreg may not work in all readers, I will start to remove the accents in math mode

@DavidCarlisle does it bother you when you copy something and the paste is different from the original?

David Carlisle

@manooooh it's possible to use T1 font with accented characters for math operators, it just needs some setup, then cut and paste would be same as accented words in text

manooooh

@DavidCarlisle like everything, it can always fail

David Carlisle

@manooooh ?

manooooh

10:23 PM

@DavidCarlisle as I say, I do not trust 100% in the unofficial codes, that is to change the symbols by hand in math mode, as did egreg

David Carlisle

@manooooh last century, when I was using tex regularly there was not any hope of cutting and pasting text from a pdf (or postscript) output from tex, so I maybe have lower expectations than you.

manooooh

@DavidCarlisle ah

David Carlisle

@manooooh it is hard for me to make that distinction, as whether a code I write is official or "just some stackexchange answer" is just a matter of which repository i check it in to.

manooooh

@DavidCarlisle btw, are you aware that the sine function is written by \sen in Spanish? Should I leave it written as \sin too, right?

David Carlisle

@manooooh I would leave it as \sin command names in latex are generally based on american english you still use \chapter even if chapter in spanish is C....

manooooh

10:30 PM

@DavidCarlisle I do not criticize at all the quality of responses from the site, I just try to wait for the least elaborate answers possible. But it is clear that everything that you answer for me works

@DavidCarlisle yes of course. Thanks!

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$TeX - LaTeX$ TeX, LaTeX and Friends