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2:28 AM
Oh, look at that. An object system in expl3. :) gist.github.com/vermiculus/a3f92ff127745eb21773
@SeanAllred Neat :)
@WillRobertson :) It's going up on CTAN once I write documentation.
Bruno and I talked about the design a few months (years?) back and I finally got around to making a prototype.
@SeanAllred I thought I saw some prototype code from Bruno once about this too, but then he got caught up with other things (as we all do). Maybe he just discussed the idea.
@SeanAllred Can we play around with it for a while before an official CTAN release? This is the sort of thing that might make more sense merged into expl3 proper!
@WillRobertson Oh, please do!
@WillRobertson And merging it into expl3 proper would be exciting :3
2:48 AM
@SeanAllred Obviously can't promise anything quite yet but it sounded like a good idea when originally proposed :)
@WillRobertson Oh naturally
@WillRobertson I remember the conversation came up those few years back and the main argument against expl3 supporting such a thing is its own scope. It was difficult to come up with a typesetting-centric use-case for objects like this.
The template system's objects are similar, but inherently limited to nine fields. It definitely makes things needlessly difficult.
@WillRobertson Related conversation with a link to the LaTeX-L mail: vvv
Q: xtemplate proposes 'objects,' but are they really objects? How can they be extended to become 'true' objects?

Sean AllredIn chat, @cgnieder just pointed me to xtemplate after poking around my own startup ltx3obj. In section 3, the documentation states (at the time of writing): An object type (sometimes just "object") is an abstract idea of a document element that takes a fixed number of arguments corresponding ...

3 hours later…
6:03 AM
@SeanAllred, @WillRobertson If I remember, Bruno suggests an object approach to allow us to cover variables that we've not built in. For example, we need to cover some kind of two-dimensional data format for e.g. reading CSV files. Of course, performance issues might lead to using different code (see how pgfplots reads data, for example), but at least we should explore a built-in generic type.
6:37 AM
I wonder if it is recommended to add \! after \int to make the integrand little closer to the \int sign? Maple generates Latex this way. It add \! after each \int. Like this: \int \!{\frac {-{x}^{2}+2}{{x}^{3}+2\,x}}\,{\rm d}x but Mathematica Latex export does not add the \! and I never seen it before done this way.
6:49 AM
@JosephWright: Seeing "xtemplate" reminds me of an issue with the documentation: For some commands (e.g. \DeclareTemplateInterface, \DeclareTemplateCode) the description of the arguments are missing.
@Nasser It depends on the font. I like the approach taken by the "cool" package -- it defines a command called \Integrate{f,x,a,b} which corresponds to \int_a^b f dx , but where you can customise a lot of the spacing and so on without having to edit every formula you write.
@UlrikeFischer That would be my fault I guess — pretty sure I wrote that documentation :)
@JosephWright IIRC there was also cool stuff regarding, say, storing a clist or seq inside a prop, and getting things in and out didn't require cumbersome multiple getting/setting commands for each "layer".
@WillRobertson I'm guessing that the code contains the arguments, but that due to some error they swallowed in the print. (It seems to affect only commands with macros description over more than one line).
@WillRobertson thanks, I am looking at this package now. Never used it before, but looks interesting.
@Nasser There are a couple of similar ones; this one is rather...clunky...but I like the ideas inside very much.
@WillRobertson main issue I see, mirrors.ctan.org/macros/latex/contrib/cool/… is that one has to write \Sin(x) instead of \sin(x) and \Infinity instead of \inf and \PI instead of \pi, etc... to take advantage of it. Which means one will be coupled with this package for ever. Without this package, the code will not run unless one changes the code back to lower cases.
^^ that should be \Sin{x} and not \Sin(x), etc....
7:18 AM
@Nasser Not hard to define your own commands similarly, though, if you want to break away from using that package. In fact, sometimes I do exactly that when I just need a single function or two.
7:35 AM
@WillRobertson Yes
8:31 AM
I have just seen a document loading lastpage209.
9:11 AM
@Nasser note the mathematica font has a much more upright integral than teh computer modern one
@Nasser Have you tried MaTeX?
@JosephWright I guess we are go for PL2 :(
@DavidCarlisle OK, will run the build process
@JosephWright at least that's how I understood Frank's message:-)
@JosephWright I had written a reply re unicode-letters but decided to delete:-)
@DavidCarlisle Anything interesting?
9:23 AM
@JosephWright not really, just pointing out that since the only affected characters (should be) previously undefined unicode slots, existing documents should not be using them so there should not be compatibility issues, and that unlike tex fonts system fonts will change under us anyway to track unicode (in parts) so making the default codes track unicode is the only option really.
@DavidCarlisle I think there were some case mapping changes
9:49 AM
@JosephWright yes they have a standard policy of never changing properties (so they can reject any request to do so) but sometimes they decide a bug is a bug and change anyway. Hence the (should be) but still I remain unconvinced that updating the codes is problematic unless someone can show me a real document that would ever have been affected by a unicode update.
etex.sty is on ctan
@1010011010 yes, I use Matex sometimes when I want to put Latex titles and axes labels on a Mathematica plot as it is easier that way.
10:08 AM
@DavidCarlisle Example:
@DavidCarlisle Probably quite esoteric :-)
@JosephWright compared to (say) luatex 0.81 planning on removing the current node library api, I'd say I could live with that level of change....
@DavidCarlisle Yes, that sort of thing is rather more tricky
@JosephWright I know but in general it sort of makes sense to aim for tex levels of stability in a macro layer over tex82, but if running over xetex or especially luatex I think you need to let go a bit and accept minor bug fixes of unicode properties as just ignorable changes. Since the system fonts also change get updated so metrics and available characters change without any change to the document, I really can't get too worried if one or two case mappings change.
@DavidCarlisle One for TUG2015: see the discussion list :-)
@JosephWright yes, are we going to have time to go to any of the talks:-)
10:16 AM
@DavidCarlisle The schedule is quite laid-back so we should be OK
@DavidCarlisle I'm still toying with the idea of travelling earlier, partly for that reason
10:29 AM
@DavidCarlisle PL2 off to CTAN: had fun with the webform so hope the version comes out OK
10:41 AM
The thing with power strips ... you have to switch it on :-/
@Johannes_B Or have good batteries.
@egreg Exactly. I don't have good batteries. :-(
11:23 AM
@WillRobertson @JosephWright Isn't this fairly simple to do, though? \cs_generate_variant:Nn \prop_get:NnN { o }
@JosephWright I hate that form:(
@JosephWright > Version: 2015/01/01 PL 1 2015-07-07 :(:(:(
11:41 AM
@SeanAllred Sorry not sure how this fits in :)
@SeanAllred This doesn't make much sense, unless the first level expansion of the first argument is a property list's name.
11:56 AM
@JosephWright If you mean the addition of case mappings, this is because the characters are new in Unicode 8; however case mappings are frozen after they’re added (not completely sure about that, can find references if necessary).
@Johannes_B Generally speaking, I agree with @DavidCarlisle that Unicode is much more stable than the Unicode-aware variants of TeX.
@ArthurReutenauer I bet you pinged the wrong one? ;-)
@SeanAllred The idea was that at present to store an entire prop inside another one you basically have to known about the implementation
@Johannes_B Oh damn it, sorry ;-) Yes, I meant Joseph. I usually just type “@Jo”, and you’re before him in the alphabetical order, so you usually come first.
@Johannes_B Although maybe it’s also connected to the activity level, in which case it’s because you post more than Joseph ;-)
@ArthurReutenauer I am? How do you know that?
I am just realizing, that everybody who wants to ping @JosephWright sees my green martian first. Sorry guys :-)
@Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph @Johannes @Joseph
12:10 PM
@Johannes_B I mean “Johannes_B” is before “Joseph Wright” in alphabetical order.
@PauloCereda Oh goodness
@Johannes_B But it must be related to the alphabetical order too, because there’s a Joseph without surname, and he comes last, after Joseph Wright.
@PauloCereda Oy.
@ArthurReutenauer I did notice that two minutes ago, but i didn't even think about the connection. I cannot take care of everything ;-)
2 hours ago, by Joseph Wright
@ArthurReutenauer There are not many of them, but there are changes in the case mappings
12:26 PM
Hello from a summer camp :-)
@yo' Hello
@JosephWright are you going to ask ctan to fix the version string to say PL 2 or should I:-)
@DavidCarlisle I will
@JosephWright OK thanks I didn't want us both to do it:-)
@JosephWright, please see the edited version. — Alexey 1 hour ago
Anyone fancy having a go at this? I get a different list of language so presumably a different language.dat file is in use, but I'm not sure why that would affect \@hash@
12:49 PM
@ChristianHupfer @clemens I had never seen this page before: kohm.name/markus
@Johannes_B I have :p
@JosephWright interesting that's the latex2.09 version of yargdef more or less (with a loop) rather than the 2e one which just truncates #1#2#3#4#5#6#7#8#9 :-)
@DavidCarlisle From plain.def so not surprising I think
@DavidCarlisle Oh, I see what is happening!
I get ! Font \tenrm=lhr10 not loadable: Metric (TFM) file not found.
and no time to trace fonts down:-)
@DavidCarlisle See my answer
@DavidCarlisle I get all sorts of other errors, but can at least pin down the one the question is about
1:19 PM
@JosephWright ah so are those formats not built as part of any standard TL configuration? How come it's just come up now?
@DavidCarlisle I think this is the same guy who has asked a few questions about Cyrillic with a plain-like format
@DavidCarlisle Check his list of questions
Q: Easy method to activate cyrplain package (CyrTeX)

AlexeyI would like to have a Cyrillic version of TeX/AMSTeX. I have installed the cyrplain package, but further instructions are too long and technical for me, sometimes referring to README of other packages or suggesting to manually move some files, and the expected result of following them is not qu...

1:56 PM
@DavidCarlisle Looks like we can get a room with natural light for the UK-TUG meeting, so not the dungeon this year :-)
2:17 PM
@JosephWright ooh
@JosephWright Surprise sandwiches?
@JosephWright It can't be this simple, but why not just wrap the inner prop in a group?
@WillRobertson could you remove etex from \RequirePackage{etex,afterpage,changepage} in addlines (please:-)
@R.Schumacher -- aha, a credit course! where is this? (it's very unusual!)
@DavidCarlisle Will you bring biscuits to the UK-TUG user meeting?
@NicolaTalbot any chance you could change \RequirePackage{etoolbox}\RequirePackage{etex} to \RequirePackage{etoolbox} in datatool? (etoolbox will load etex on old formats, and on new formats it doesn't:-)
@PauloCereda Don't be silly, Oxford colleges have people who arrive when required and serve tea and biscuits:-)
2:36 PM
@ArthurReutenauer @Johannes_B I guess I'll change my name because everyone who wants to ping Joseph Wright ends up pinging me instead...
Did you just get a ping @JosephWright? or in other words: Who got a ping?
@DavidCarlisle ooooh :)
Well, this time I didn't.
@Joseph You're two very different kinds of birds!
@egreg yes I was thinking the same: less ducks required
2:38 PM
@DavidCarlisle And he's from Brazil. :) Near me, actually. :)
@egreg Sure. I'm closer to @PauloCereda (geographically speaking). But I'm not nearly as famous as anyone of you.
@Joseph To be honest, I thought @JosephWright had changed his avatar and I was very, very confused and afraid
@SeanAllred The only accepted avatar change is this:
@SeanAllred, well, I didn't even know he used a duck... By the way, the Tufte-Jekyll theme is impressive, but it gives me itches to think that no proper italics were used.
2:42 PM
@PauloCereda For the classy TeXnician.
@PauloCereda next step, fill with wine and swallow in one gulp?
@SeanAllred ooh yes!
@PauloCereda, this is cute, probably my daughter would enjoy that.
@Joseph Oh really? I haven't had the chance to really dive in yet -- so much work for my day-job :(
@Joseph I think Joseph Wright once had that photo as avatar. :)
2:44 PM
@PauloCereda I prefer some yellowish liquid in my glass.
I might change the gravatar for my tex@ email to a duck... it would be fitting :)
@egreg ooh. :)
@egreg: ask @Joseph about his feelings on ABNT. :P
@egreg Clear for me :)
(@Joseph: that was a naughty move on my part) :)
@egreg, agreed. Though right now I've got some purple liquid and my pork ribs are thawing right now.
2:46 PM
@egreg Anatra al sugo? You mean. :)
@PauloCereda I'm sitting in my office after a boring department meeting, waiting for going to the station, catching my train and sipping my well deserved glass of wine.
@egreg Wine, TeX and Internet? What else do we need? :)
@PauloCereda In all honesty, I can't think of anything.
Well, emacs, but I wouldn't be caught dead without emacs.
@SeanAllred :)
@Joseph I sympathise :-)
@JosephWright Do you have examples of existing case mappings that were changed, as opposed to new ones? This is a little different.
@Joseph Anyway, the changes within Unicode will always much less consequential than the additions we need to make to unicode-letters.def in order to set up characters from unicameral scripts for hyphenation.
@PauloCereda So are you coming to the UK-TUG meeting or not? I didn’t follow.
3:00 PM
@ArthurReutenauer I won't be able to go, sadly. Flights are very expensive and I cannot afford them at the moment. :(
@ArthurReutenauer We should be able to get a bigger room this year: I'll book today
I wish I could go.
@JosephWright Good, and @PauloCereda too bad :-(
@PauloCereda amoebic, amorphous... Well, using LaTeX in Brazilian universities and following supposed rules is like boarding a jet for a walk around the block. Last week I saw someone wanting help to disable hyphenation completely, and using Arial 12 for body type.
@Joseph Oh my!
3:02 PM
@ArthurReutenauer, sorry, what are unicameral scripts?
@Joseph Caseless scripts - with no distinction of uppercase and lowercase.
@Joseph He was aiming for me I think ;-)
Damn, sorry @Joseph, I meant to ping @JosephWright ;-)
@ArthurReutenauer, well, I was interested in that too, anyway.
@JosephWright Anyway, what I meant was: in TeX we need to say \lccode"0905="0905 for a great number of characters in order for them to be considered for hyphenation, and that introduces an artificial case mapping (in TeX) that is entirely due to an idiosyncrasy of the language.
3:06 PM
@JosephWright: How far is the distance from Heathrow to Oxford?
@PauloCereda, if you want to see an example of LaTeX used by publishers around here: amazon.com.br/Amor-Matem%C3%A1tica-Edward-Frenkel/dp/857734505X
But using math mode with computer modern and libertine for body text looked really poor.
@Joseph Wow!
@Joseph Ouch, that hurts.
@JosephWright Some of these characters may gain real case mappings in later versions of Unicode, but most of them won’t (Hebrew, Arabic, Indic scripts - we already have many hyphenation pattern files for the latter). Hence the difference from unicode-letters.def to UnicodeData.txt will always (by my estimate) be greater than the differences from one version of UnicodeData.txt to the other.
@DavidCarlisle: Is Heathrow near your house? :)
@PauloCereda Heathrow is reasonable close to my flat :-) (30 minutes by Tube + less than 10 minutes walk).
3:10 PM
@PauloCereda 1 hour drive (plus parking and stuff) more or less, but if I get a chance (like going to Darmstadt) I drive for an hour in the other direction to Birmingham which is a more sensible airport
@ArthurReutenauer hmmm interesting. :) I am looking at some prices right now and doing some calculations. :)
@Joseph That must unfortunately be very common, I think. Disabling hyphenation is a classic request of newcomers to TeX who want to emulate whatever horrible style they’re used to.
@PauloCereda You’re more than welcome to sleep on our couch for a few days if you want.
@DavidCarlisle I will be in hitchhiking nearby with a beautifully typeset sign with {\Huge\sffamily\bfseries UK-TUG}. :)
@PauloCereda I wouldn't advise hitchhiking up the M40
@ArthurReutenauer Thanks, Arthur. :) I'm just looking at the prices because I need to see how much things cost in the UK (someone told me it's one of the most expensive countries in Europe).
3:13 PM
@PauloCereda That may be true. Beer is cheap, though ;-)
@ArthurReutenauer ooh :)
@PauloCereda But the main expenses will always be getting there and accommodation; and you can get the latter for free.
@DavidCarlisle is it too dangerous or people prefer Comic Sans? :)
@ArthurReutenauer Thanks. <3
@StefanKottwitz You wil be in darmstadt, right?
@DavidCarlisle: I will steal some sandwiches to eat during the flight back home. :)
3:17 PM
@Johannes_B I plan to go there
@PauloCereda As for travel within the country, you can count on £30 for a round-trip train ticket from London to Oxford (that’s €40 or $50, very roughly). Probably less if you book early.
@Johannes_B It's just a last minute possibility that a work project may require me at that time
@David, @Arthur: on a serious note: I will try to attend. I will poke Brent and talk to him about some hints on travelling from Brazil to UK (Brent lived for many years in here). :)
@PauloCereda Great! Let us know.
@ArthurReutenauer Sure thing. :)
3:19 PM
@StefanKottwitz If you are there, please get in touch with @barbarabeeton with respect to templates. maybe @ArthurReutenauer wants to join the discussion as well. who did i miss?
@Johannes_B Gundar, hunter destroyer of templates. :)
Feb 18 at 16:54, by Johannes_B
@PaulGessler Shall call my first son Gundar, hunter destroyer of templates
@Johannes_B sure
@PauloCereda Laid down my weapons. i realized i cannot fight a battle i cannot win (though i tried to multiple times in my life).
Now i decided to stop fighting, and work along with templates. As this is (seems to be) the starting point of many many users, we need to take care of improving this initial state rather than complaining when it's too late.
@barbarabeeton It was Cedarville University in Ohio were I was an Associate Professor of Mathematics, Computer Science, and Physics. I retired a year ago.
3:32 PM
@PauloCereda I hope you know how low key uktug meetings are:-) I wouldn't go if they were not in the same town:-)
@DavidCarlisle :)
3:45 PM
@barbarabeeton At my university! :)
4:01 PM
@DavidCarlisle Eeek
@PauloCereda You think he's joking: never saw him when we used to squat at UCL in London
@egreg -- european institutions are apparently much more sensible about having their students formally introduced to how to write proper academic documents. in the u.s., except for a requirement (which may not even exist any more) to demonstrate "freshman english composition" competency, it seems to be up to individual instructors to maintain standards. and from what i've seen, not all that many do (or are even capable of doing so, especially in technical disciplines).
@JosephWright best attended uktug meeting I attended was at Aston when we launched latex2e...
@DavidCarlisle Almost certainly
@DavidCarlisle Poorest so far I think was the one with four people there
4:19 PM
@ArthurReutenauer Indeed. I'm not really worried about the change here, just noting that these things do happen.
@barbarabeeton I’m not sure the general situation is so much better in Europe though - although credit courses about TeX are not unheard of.
@JosephWright Sure
@ArthurReutenauer -- having just received and edited a tugboat submission by an austrian secondary school student -- whose command of written english is better than that of some of my young relatives -- i'm not ready to back down on my contention. maybe i've just been privileged to see the "cream"; if so, i consider myself fortunate ... but i'm still mightily impressed.
@TorbjørnT. Take evasive action
5:53 PM
@StefanKottwitz You're going to the meeting?
@JosephWright Yes, I plan it! Not yet registered, as I'm involved in a project at work at that time, hopefully I can stay away some days to go to the meeting.
@StefanKottwitz Ah: couldn't see your name on the list
1 hour later…
7:24 PM
@StefanKottwitz I see the IP has been changed: I'll make a public announcement
1 hour later…
8:28 PM
@JosephWright Very good!
9:02 PM
@StefanKottwitz A few of the links on the FAQ front page are odd or dead: would you be able to fix or let me have access so I can?
@JosephWright I fixed the /faq sub directory as I noticed (was dead already on the original server). Just mail me a list and I'll quickly fix
@StefanKottwitz OK, will do a sweep and e-mail tomorrow
@StefanKottwitz BTW, we should probably check where the MX record points now :-)
Ah, visual FAQ, also , I see
@StefanKottwitz That was one of them
@JosephWright there's no IP without the www prefix
9:12 PM
@StefanKottwitz Hmm, will see what I can do
@JosephWright Visual FAQ fixed
@StefanKottwitz Cool
9:51 PM
@Johannes_B Good idea. Do you already have any concrete thoughts on how to do this?
1 hour later…
10:58 PM
@clemens I have been discussing this here in chat on a short basis with @barbarabeeton and i also contacted Vel from the template site. There will be a discussion on the topic in Darmstadt, unfortunately i cannot attend. I'll try to write down some feelings and thoughts about it so that at least a few of my thoughts are getting into the discussion. I hope this will be a fruitful endeavour.
@clemens The very first thing to do is to help Vel to update existing templates and get obvious errors to die out.
11:16 PM
@JosephWright I'd like to suggest the FAQ to be affectionately known as The Robin FAQ. :)
11:35 PM
Urgent! How to use Mac Texmaker to get bibliography? I tried biblatex (\usepackage[sorting=none, backend=bibtex]{biblatex}), \usepackage{bibtex} and biber but they do not work. What do you recommend?
Should I try natbib? I typed out the bibliography myself before without bib. file. My system seems to be installed thru TeX Live with MacPorts, which is bad and seems to lack biber. But I cannot change to MacTex now as the due date is coming. What is the solution?
@kwy just saying "they do not work" is not all that helpful and is unlikely to lead to correct answers. What doesn't work? Did you actually run bibtex or biber on the file? Describe the steps you took and any error messages you encountered.
Q: Question mark instead of citation number

user16747I've browsed the forums and found a number of posts that have addressed this issue, but none of the solutions seem to work for me. I have the following script that I just copied from the bibtex home page to get familiar with it. Instead of the citation number I get a question mark. I compile usin...

@kwy ^^ this question's accepted answer describes the whole process in detail.
11:55 PM
@egreg: Is there any vim user in the GuIT group? :)

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