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8:37 AM
I mentioned a famous novel and everybody ran out?
 
9:04 AM
@egreg Perhaps reading it ;-)
 
9:59 AM
@egreg Did you see the film?
And is the novel as strange as it sounds? I've never read it.
 
10:32 AM
@FaheemMitha Yes, very nicely done as all Visconti's movies. I read the novel something like 40 years ago, probably too young for it. ;-)
 
@egreg 60 shouldn't be too young.
 
@DavidCarlisle I met Thomas Mann, of course, he was a nice child.
@UlrikeFischer You're on MiKTeX, IIRC; can you check this one?
0
Q: \alph shows strange symbols when used with xgreek package

Φωτεινή ΒέρδουI can assure you I searched a hell lot before posting this and I only post questions online if I have totally given up. :( I am new in LaTeX since I chose it to write my undergraduate thesis. I can only write my thesis in Greek (since my professor doesn't want to bother forwarding my request to ...

 
 
1 hour later…
11:53 AM
@egreg I think I may have seen the movie. It's hard to be sure. The plot sound familiar.
The only Visconti movie I'm sure I have seen is L'Innocente. I hope I spelled that right.
 
@FaheemMitha Yes, correct. You should see “Il gattopardo” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Leopard_(1963_film)
 
@egreg Is it good?
 
@FaheemMitha Very good one!
@FaheemMitha Also the novel is nice.
 
@egreg Ok. I've certainly heard of the film.
@egreg Oh, there's a novel too?
Yoga time. Take care, everyone.
 
@FaheemMitha Yes, the only one by Tomasi di Lampedusa. Interesting story about the author.
 
 
1 hour later…
1:04 PM
Greetings!
I managed to wrote a lot of my stuff and all things improved a lot.
However ...
I notice the \indent command doesn't work. What would be the cause?
 
@OFFSHARING you should never need it anyway. But presumably you mean the first paragraph after a section? latex does not indent those by default.
 
@DavidCarlisle Precisely! :-)
 
@OFFSHARING so don't use \indent
 
@DavidCarlisle I don't use it, but I need a bit of space.
 
@egreg Oh, right. Lampedusa. Yes, I've heard of that novel too.
 
1:11 PM
I actually have \subsection
 
@OFFSHARING if you are using a typesetting tradition that does indent initial paragraphs use \usepackage{indentfirst} (a package of impeccable quality as @egreg will confirm)
@OFFSHARING same thing in this context
 
@DavidCarlisle You're so brilliant!!! Tons of thanks!!! :-)
 
@OFFSHARING If you are writing in English the more common (but not universal) style is to not indent the first paragraph.
 
@DavidCarlisle That is a very Zen package.
 
@DavidCarlisle English ... :-( Maybe I should remove it.
 
1:17 PM
@FaheemMitha I suspect that it will forever have the highest ratio of documentation to code of any latex package.
@OFFSHARING well it's a lot easier to add/remove a single package use in the preamble than add/remove random \indent formatting instructions scattered through your source, which is rather the point of latex markup to keep such style decisions separate from the writing of the actual text.
 
@DavidCarlisle true
 
@DavidCarlisle Probably. A candidate for smallest LaTeX package ever.
 
@FaheemMitha \ProvidesPackage{zen}\endinput
 
@egreg Ah, a no-op.
 
@FaheemMitha I remember being quite sad really when we packaged it for latex2e and added \ProvidesPackage{indentfirst} at the top in the house style, that added 14 tokens to what was previously a 4 token package.
@egreg I could make that 7 tokens shorter
 
1:23 PM
@DavidCarlisle cp $(kpsewhich null.tex) zen.sty
 
@egreg oh that has infinitely higher documentation to code ratio than indentfirst. I bow to a master (not you of course: DEK)
 
@DavidCarlisle I can relate to your grief.
I have a template. Does anyone have tips about converting it to a class file? Tips may or may not include "Don't do that". Is there a question on the site about this, perhaps?
 
@FaheemMitha template could mean anything. so it depends
 
@DavidCarlisle Well, it's a latex file where I add text.
I think the idea of a class file is to abstract away all the clutter, right?
But this probably involves <shudder> LaTeX programming.
I've got a preamble with macros and stuff in it. Could push that away out of sight.
Or maybe a style file. Not really clear on the difference.
 
@FaheemMitha you can easily make a class (or even more easily a package) from the preamble, in the package case literally take all the lines between but not including \documentclass and \begin{document} and put them in mypackage.sty and then just use \usepackage{mypackage}
 
1:33 PM
@DavidCarlisle That doesn't sound so bad. What about stuff that comes after the text at the end?
 
@FaheemMitha ?
 
@DavidCarlisle Well, I have some text, then I call a macro at the end which builds a table.
That should probably go away too...
 
@FaheemMitha hard to say without seeing but your package can do\AtEndDocument{\whatevermacroyouseattheend}
 
A package is the same thing as a style file?
@DavidCarlisle That might work.
 
@FaheemMitha "style file" was the latex2.09 terminology not used since 1993:-) (but yes)
 
1:36 PM
@DavidCarlisle Now it's called a package? But still uses the .sty suffix, though.
 
@FaheemMitha have you ever used \usestylefile{indentfirst} ?
 
@DavidCarlisle I've never used indentfirst, if that is what you are asking.
I was just looking at:
13
Q: What's the difference between a class and a style?

n0peWhat are the actual differences between the two? I am new to LaTeX and I need to create a custom "look & feel" -- should I be looking into making a class or a style?

 
@FaheemMitha Ok have you ever used \usestylefile{inputenc} ?
 
@DavidCarlisle Nope.
 
@FaheemMitha arrrrrggggg have you ever used \usepackage ?
 
1:39 PM
I think I've used \usepackage{inputenc}.
@DavidCarlisle Yup.
If you are trying to lead me to an epiphany, maybe hurry up. The Socratic method doesn't work well on me.
Maybe I shouldn't have killed off all those brain cells when I was younger.
I kind of regret it now.
 
@FaheemMitha that was all i meant. There is no command \usestylefile as there are no things officially called style files, but there are things called packages which are used with \usepackage.
 
@DavidCarlisle Oh. Well, was \usepackage always used, even in 2.09? I don't remember those days.
 
@FaheemMitha no, latex209 used \documentstyle[longtable,array,12pt,....]{article} so what are now packages were just options to the class (any option that was not "known" like 12pt caused the system to look for a file with name of form option.sty
 
@DavidCarlisle Oh, I see. That must have got unwieldy rapidly.
Are you guys planning to change it again in LaTeX 3?
 
@FaheemMitha so 2e got rid of \documentstyle and introduced \documentclass and \usepackage as separate commands (but we kept the .sty extension because most of them then just worked without change)
@FaheemMitha most likely
 
1:44 PM
@DavidCarlisle Ok.
@DavidCarlisle I see. That's an interesting bit of history.
You could write a "historical" answer to that question above.
 
@FaheemMitha I was just looking on site now there is an answer along those lines already somewhere
 
@DavidCarlisle Oh, ok.
 
@FaheemMitha this one for example but I thought Frank had a longer version somewhere
12
Q: .sty suffix (extension) for LaTeX packages

yo'I understand that the suffix .cls stands for classes. Then, why packages don't have the suffix .pkg, but rather have .sty?

 
@DavidCarlisle Ok.
> LaTeX 2.09 did not have the distinction everything were called styles.
That should probably have a punctuation mark after "distinction".
Dinner time. Later, people.
 
@FaheemMitha yes, you have edit rights:-)
 
2:28 PM
@DavidCarlisle I do. But I thought maybe you had an opinion. Well, semi-colon it is then.
 
2:41 PM
@FaheemMitha :-)
 
3:19 PM
So, is it LaTeX 2.09 and LaTeX2e? Or are the spaces not well defined?
@DavidCarlisle I made a few more edits to that answer. If you are unhappy with them, please do not hesitate to revert. In particular, one sentence now starts with a preposition. I hope that does not make you faint in horror.
 
@FaheemMitha 2.09 usually has a space, 2e is defined in the latexe macro to be \LaTeX\kern.15em2$_{\textstyle\varepsilon}$} .15 em is about half a normal word space so approximate that by a space or no space as you wish....
 
@egreg The thing I probably remember best about "L'Innocente", which is a fine film, is the beautiful. Ms. Antonelli.
 
@FaheemMitha it did a bit, I edited the edit
 
@DavidCarlisle Are you in the "beginning sentences with prepositions is evil and wrong" camp?
I probably was rapped on the knuckles about that in school, but as with most things I was taught at school, I have learned to disregard it.
 
@FaheemMitha I think you changed the meaning, I leave grammatical rules to @AlanMunn:-)
 
3:29 PM
@DavidCarlisle I see. Well, no spaces for 2e gets my vote then.
@DavidCarlisle Oh, apologies. I didn't mean to.
 
@FaheemMitha She died a few months ago, very sad story.
 
@egreg Yes, I was looking at her Wikipedia page. What was a sad story?
That she died, or something else?
"And did those feet in ancient time walk up on England's mountains green"
Bad, Blake, bad.
 
@FaheemMitha Her last years were quite bad.
 
@egreg Oh. The WP page mentions some lawsuit.
 
3:45 PM
@FaheemMitha She got involved in drugs and convicted for pushing, but she was cleared some years later (very slow judicial system here). She never recovered and got into very bad depression.
 
@egreg I see. Yes, it does sound bad.
@egreg Are you perchance familiar with the novel "The Way of All Flesh"?
 
4:03 PM
@FaheemMitha No.
 
@egreg Ok. Good novel. And it used to be very famous. But it's not the cheeriest thing out there.
 
4:53 PM
@FaheemMitha @DavidCarlisle We linguists keep out of discussions of prescriptive grammar rules except usually to say that they are crap.
 
@AlanMunn ^^^ might be relevant. :)
 
@AlanMunn That sounds like a, er, sound policy.
@PauloCereda LOL
 
@AlanMunn ah but you can say that with authority
 
@DavidCarlisle True. :)
 
5:56 PM
@DavidCarlisle I think github.com/latex3/unicode-data is just about right now: I've separated out the XeTeX classes as I'm now pretty convinced any 'real' use needs more sophistication but at the same time for plain and 2e a loader for this is required.
@DavidCarlisle A review would be appreciated, then I'll step to v1 and send to CTAN (and add a changes list to the README for v1 onwards)
 
@JosephWright OK just packing up now (10 minutes ago, but someone came to my desk:-) will look from home in a bit... By the way have you looked at xgreek (it came up in a couple of questions and Ulrike tracked it down to being docstripped with tex not pdftex, but it over-writes all the uppercase settings for greek (I remember a thread about that on xetex or texlive list a while back)
 
6:21 PM
@DavidCarlisle There was a question about longtables in twocolumn mode a few weeks back. Do you by chance have a link to that in your sleeve?
 
6:43 PM
@DavidCarlisle If you use tex the default tcx file is not loaded. So all high bit characters are written out in ^^xy form
 
@egreg yes sure that's the reason but while looking at that i was looking what the package actually does which is sort of relevant to @JosephWright's unicode case changing setup.
@egreg I can't decide if I should ask the author to use ascii markup in the package to avoid that problem. It's the safest thing, but makes it a lot less readable...
 
@DavidCarlisle Also polyglossia uses utf-8 in several .ldf files.
@DavidCarlisle And, sure enough, tex -translate-file=cp227.tcx xgreek.ins does the right thing.
 
@egreg yes but is there anyway of flagging to automated miktex/texlive installers what "the right thing" is?
@Johannes_B years rather than weeks but I think I normally send people here:
18
A: Balancing long table inside multicol in LaTeX

David CarlisleIf you don't want longtable to add headers and footers to the table at the same time that multicol is balancing where to make the break (which would require that frank and I cooperate:-) then multicol will balance the output from longtable if you first trick longtable into thinking that it isn't ...

 
@DavidCarlisle Well, in TeX Live there's no problem, the stock xgreek.sty is good.
 
@DavidCarlisle I thought this was plopping up just a while back. Thanks for the link.
 
6:51 PM
@egreg probably by luck it uses pdftex to unpack
 
@DavidCarlisle Quite certainly.
 
@egreg so maybe it's enough to get miktex to do the same, then pretend it never happened.
 
7:06 PM
@DavidCarlisle LOL
@DavidCarlisle: vvvv
In computer science, the ostrich algorithm is a strategy of ignoring potential problems on the basis that they may be exceedingly rare. It is named for the ostrich effect which is defined as "to stick one's head in the sand and pretend there is no problem." It is used when it is more cost-effective to allow the problem to occur than to attempt its prevention. == Use with deadlocksEdit == This approach may be used in dealing with deadlocks in concurrent programming if they are believed to be very rare and the cost of detection or prevention is high. For example if each PC deadlocks once per 10 years...
 
@PauloCereda as we know, birds make very unreliable programmers
 
@DavidCarlisle Uh-oh, it backfired! :)
 
Why doesn't the book class define \partmark to issue \markboth{}{} by default instead of hardwiring \markboth{}{} in \@part? Every sectional level needs its \<level>mark command, why should \part be different? :(
 
@egreg we know who to blame
 
@DavidCarlisle The team who revised the standard classes for LaTeX2e, of course: they didn't spot such a mistake.
 
7:19 PM
@egreg Johannes then
 
@DavidCarlisle Johannes is a biker, so I blame you.
 
@egreg good a reason as any
 
7:48 PM
user image
3
 
@Werner WernerrenreW
 
@DavidCarlisle ExactlyyltcaxE
 
@JosephWright looks OK, so you pick up blocks.txt but don't use yet
 
8:17 PM
@JosephWright probably I'd just add a message to the endinput test eg
\ifx\XeTeXcharclass\undefined
  \message{\noexpand\XeTeXcharclass not defined, loader skipped}
  \expandafter\endinput
\fi
and same in the other one.
 
@DavidCarlisle Thought about that: gets tricky as { and } might have the wrong catcodes, ....
@DavidCarlisle Yes: I'm thinking there should be one place for all of the Unicode data in the TeX tree
 
By the way, @GonzaloMedina is -2013 from 300K
 
@JosephWright well you could move it down to just after you have set catcode for {} (and end the group in that case)
@JosephWright yes OK
@JosephWright or not bother and leave as is
 
yo'
8:56 PM
@JosephWright I think we shall really zap this one:
3
Q: TeXworks and textedit:// links

yo'I use TeXworks for typesetting LilyPond music. The syntax is very similar, and the idea as well (text file -> PDF), so it's very convenient. However, LilyPond doesn't (obviously) use syncTeX for inverse-search, it uses the textedit:// links. I would like to configure these links to work for forw...

 
@yo' Reason?
 
yo'
@JosephWright it's really a feature request, any "solution" would be a very bad hack.
 
@yo' OK
 
 
1 hour later…
10:13 PM
I need to make a form, not a computer-fillable pdf, but a paper form. Is there a good package for that? I might just use the addlinespace macro in booktabs, but I suspect that there's a better way.
Maybe I should just use the exam class.
 
10:57 PM
Hello!!

I have written the bibliography in a .bib file.
Can we use in this file a command for example \begin{otherlanguage} so that I can use an other language as in the main text?
 
@MaryStar you can, with the disadvantage that the bib file is then only usable with documents that set up that language with babel, but if it is a personal bib file that's not a problem
 
In the main text I use the following:

\usepackage[german,english,greek]{babel}



Where do I have to write the command \begin{otherlanguage} ? In the .bib file or in the main text before the command:
\bibliography{mybibliography}

? @DavidCarlisle
I want to use in the .bib file the english language
 
@MaryStar oh I thought you meant for changing the language of individual titles. for the whole bib don't put anything in the bib file and use in your document \begin{otherlanguage} \bibliography{yourfile}\end{otherlanguage}
 
11:17 PM
@DavidCarlisle Ok... Thanks a lot!! :-)
 

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