TeX, LaTeX and Friends - 2012-05-15

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user19161

12:10 AM

@PauloCereda Debian and Fedora lets one set sudo during installation. Ubuntu and Mint come with sudo by default. I think openSuse and Mageia come without sudo by default.

user19161

@DavidCarlisle Maybe because you are using the nightly build.

2:32 AM

Huh, you know what is odd? So far I find it much more common to be able to answer questions on TeX.SX then I do on either History.SX or Chemistry.SX, despite knowing far more about the two of those then I do about TeX

2 hours later…

user19161

4:10 AM

@Canageek Well, I guess it depends on exactly what questions are asked and exactly what you know about the various topics.

8:34 AM

@DavidCarlisle Oh ... bother you! I thought I might actually be able to answer a LaTeX3 question but by the time I'd cut-and-pasted the code, tried it out, tried my solution, and gone back to the question, then you'd posted an answer. I'll stick to TikZ.

First L3 question I think I've answered:-) (I didn't test it which is why I was quicker, also note I spoke in L2 as I couldn't remember what \input is called today:-)

8:56 AM

@DavidCarlisle You beat me by seconds. :) I've added an answer anyway.

Martin Scharrer

9:29 AM

@PauloCereda: I now added a phantom key to adjustbox.

10:18 AM

@MartinScharrer Cool! :)

10:29 AM

@AndrewStacey: Would you be terribly cross if I awarded the bounty to JLDiaz instead of you? Your solution comes closest to a complete implementation that doesn't require external programs, and you did amazing work; but JLDiaz did such a great job at a complete re-implementation of the algorithm (plus this bounty would more than double his reputation, while it's only a drop in the ocean with your stellar rep level).

@Jake and I thought you'd give it to me for even attempting to answer a question tagged tikz-pgf :-)

@DavidCarlisle Hehe, oh god, having to award a bounty must feel similar to a parent being asked which is their favourite kid.

Your solution was very good as well!

@Jake actually it was fairly rubbish:-) After doing it I remembered that Hans Hagen has written a complete parser for metapost output in TeX (although as written it writes it straight to pdf) it is used in latex as well so \includegraphics can input metapost output in pdflatex

@Jake I solved that problem by only having 1

@DavidCarlisle Ah well, no harm in reinventing the wheel a couple of times.

Wise move!

10:50 AM

@Jake I think I'd get over it!

@AndrewStacey: "The correct term is "TikZpert" and by virtue of the powers invested in me ... by myself ... I hereby confer on you the Order of Nodes, Shapes, and Graphs in the Hierarchy of TikZdom. – Andrew Stacey 3 hours ago" Best. Comment. Ever! :D

user19161

@PauloCereda And the rest are called TikZnicians?

@ClarkKent I think this is the right term, but I like TikZer too. :)

user19161

@PauloCereda Well, I am a PSTrickster then!

user19161

Wow, so now we have TeXpert, TeXnician, TikZpert, TikZnician, PSTrickspert and PSTricksian!

11:05 AM

@ClarkKent Wow! :D

@AndrewStacey Oh, I thought after a bounty of 500 had been awarded, no further bounties were possible. Turns out this is not so. Do you think you could teach your code to draw closed shapes within seven days?

@Jake "The TikZ Ring". :)

11:31 AM

@Jake I'm currently teaching it to work under tension, and considerably refactoring the code. Closed paths are not impossible.

12:17 PM

GIMP 2.8! :D

Martin Scharrer

12:29 PM

New updates of mwe, currfile, easyfig and texdef. I hope I don't overload the CTAN upload system again ;-)

@MartinScharrer You are ruining the system. :P

user19161

12:59 PM

@MartinScharrer Oh? Then the system must be quite fragile!

1:13 PM

We have a tasty dessert called "Romeu e Julieta": it's guava jelly and cheese. :)

I saw some cheese now. :P

user19161

1:36 PM

@PauloCereda Er, you mean you saw your Juliet just now?

@ClarkKent Sadly no. :( It was the real cheese. :)

user19161

@PauloCereda Haha, OK. I have given up on finding any cheese this life. :-)

@ClarkKent LOL

2:14 PM

@PauloCereda I blame you: Hail hitting my window

@DavidCarlisle Oops my bad. :) I'm scared of hail, specially when I'm outside. :)

2:42 PM

@PauloCereda Are you familiar with this sort of tree? The comment responding to my request for more information doesn't seem to clarify things much for me. tex.stackexchange.com/q/55931/2693

3:00 PM

@AlanMunn It doesn't ring a bell, I'm afraid. :( I've never seen that kind of derivation tree.

@PauloCereda Me neither. It seems very schematic, and not very informative.

@AlanMunn Indeed. :) I saw the title and thought, "maybe I can help". I was wrong. :)

I have three books on formal languages near me right now. Let me see if I can find any clue. :)

@Alan: I couldn't find any clue. :( All of my books have the ones we are used to see. And may I add, the ones you are an expert in drawing. :)

3:19 PM

@PauloCereda Right. I've never come across that either, and I know a little about trees. :)

3:31 PM

Off-topic? tex.stackexchange.com/q/55940/3954 I am not sure, sice I don't know the xfig program.

Hi, @AlanMunn and @PauloCereda!

@GonzaloMedina Hi Gonzalo! :)

Nop, it was not off-topic after all. Apparently, xfig has a close connection with TeX....

3:45 PM

If anyone happens to have an idea how to make this monstrous lisp code leaner. Let me know.

2

A: Emacs and latex math delimiters

I have put together a function that might do what you want. It searches for the next LaTeX math delimiter – \(, \), \[ or \] – while ignoring comments and if is an opening one it tries to find its matching delimiter. (defun forward-latex-math () "Move forward across the next LaTeX equation. It...

Been thinking about collapsing the (cond cases to a function but I dunno how to best do it.

4:19 PM

@GonzaloMedina Hi Gonzalo. (Bye, too, I guess. :) )

@PauloCereda The mysterious tree question has now been deleted. My comments weren't intended to scare him away, but seemed to have had that effect.

@AlanMunn I don't think your comment was so devastating at all. :) I was about to post a comment asking for some online material in which we could see that tree in use.

Anyway, I hope the OP posts another question on that tree. Now I'm curious about it. :)

@PauloCereda I have a feeling that it's an image from a book that schematically describes what a derivation tree is, rather than something that you would apply multiple times to specific cases. Although the OPs version of what it showed didn't make so much sense either.

@AlanMunn It is a high possibility, and it makes sense. The (q, w) → q' notation right below the tree might tell us that from state q with the char sequence w, it takes us to state q'. :)

@PauloCereda Right.

Better, with a grammar expansion. :)

Are deleted questions still visible to 10k+ users?

4:39 PM

@PauloCereda Yes, why?

@AlanMunn Could you get the image link of that tree, if possible?

@PauloCereda Sure, hang on.

I'm really interested in discovering where that tree comes from. :)

user image

@AlanMunn Thanks Alan! :D

4:43 PM

It was actually harder to find than I thought. I thought I could find my comments in my activity, but they get deleted too. But the question was still in my browser history.

@AlanMunn Phew. :)

5:02 PM

@PauloCereda: Today I got an e-mail from Brazil ;-) ` da Universidade Estadual do Oeste do Paraná`

5:17 PM

@MarcoDaniel Really?! That's cool! :)

Paraná is in the south region. :)

5:29 PM

50

Q: Why is 80 characters the 'standard' limit for code width?

Specifically, why 80 and not 79, 81 or 100? What is the origin of this particular value?

coding-standards history

5:41 PM

@PauloCereda :-)

@MarcoDaniel Will you come to Brazil? :)

@PauloCereda Maybe in two years after I will finish my second degree ;-)

@MarcoDaniel Yay!

@egreg: What's wrong with the following:

\documentclass{article}
\newcounter{mycount}
\newcommand{\test}[2]{%
  \setcounter{mycount}{#1}%
  \def\mycount{#2}%
  \themycount\ and \mycount\ are
  \ifnum\value{mycount}=\number\mycount\relax the same\else different\fi.
}
\begin{document}

\test{123}{256}% different

\test{12}{12}% same

\test{-1}{-9}% different

\test{-1234}{-1234}% same
\end{document}

This is regarding the question

3

Q: Macro vs counter: How to store and operate with numbers in TeX without using (too many) counters

I need to store and use a large amount of integers (a little bit of "programming with TeX"), but I know that TeX has a limited (up to 256) number of counters that can be used simultaneously. How to work with these numbers using macros? I need basic numerical operations and comparison.

macros counters

To sum it up, why not just use \number<macro> as a replacement for counters?

@Werner Counters are more efficient.

The \ifnum\value{mycount}=\number\mycount\relax test is not expandable, because in the case of equality it leaves a \relax in the input stream.

5:59 PM

@egreg I've always come across this as being mentioned "problematic" - that is, expandability. If you want to write a macro, make sure it is expandable.

Even you mentioned that Heiko's "stuff" is always expandable.

6:13 PM

Although expandability may be dependent on the application (or at least may be required based on it), it seems like making something expandable is the best way to go...always.

6:28 PM

@Werner There's also a performance hit

@Werner except that so many operations in tex are not expandable. It's possible to add one in an expandable way but compared to \advance\foo\@ne it will be complicated and slow

@DavidCarlisle What answer did you give recently in terms of performance?

@Werner oh you mean the one about \@ne ... I'll look it up

The question here being whether performance is really that big a deal...? I mean, if I have to wait a few extra seconds, that's fine. As you mentioned, the difference nowadays is not like waiting for coffee compared to going out and buying a coffee machine...

@DavidCarlisle Yes, that one...

I was jut reading Frank and Joseph's replies concerning the new world order, I think we are a lmore or les sin agreement:-)

30

A: What does \z@ do?

latex.ltx says \newdimen\z@ \z@=0pt % can be used both for 0pt and 0 so as it says it is short (and efficient) way of getting 0. You should always have a copy of the latex source file latex.ltx in a text editor window while reading package code:-), or perhaps, if you prefer, the typeset versi...

6:40 PM

@DavidCarlisle: are there people out there not using emacs?!

@PauloCereda I thought not but I was asked to edit my original answer. I caught a member of my group using vi this morning:(

@DavidCarlisle Oh. :(

You should remap all his vi key bindings. :)

@PauloCereda But the only thing I know how to do in vi is esc : q

@DavidCarlisle Try :help! for an easter egg. :)

so now having got my javascript not to crash firefox chrome (bug report to webkit) opera and safari, I have to make it work in IE, Oh I do so love working in windows

2

6:50 PM

@DavidCarlisle LOL

New entry in my preamble: \@ifcountry{Norway}{\let\times=\cdot}{}

@AndrewStacey maybe I'm a secret Norwegian, I prefer cdot as well or invisibletimes, \times is for times tables and children:-)

@DavidCarlisle Me also, though I do have the excuse of currently living there. On the other hand, I've been using \cdot or \absolutelynothing to denote multiplication since the year \times.

@AndrewStacey :-)

Frank Mittelbach

@Marco can you show me what error message you get if you send a mail to latex-l?

@DavidCarlisle what is this one about?

7:03 PM

@FrankMittelbach the question about option clashes

Frank Mittelbach

@DavidCarlisle wasn't aware that I proposed a new world order ... just that I think that things 1992 we learn a thing or two ... and that this could be put into action

@DavidCarlisle Any anthem for the new order? :)

@FrankMittelbach We also have a lot more TeX resources available: complex data structures and keyval no issue :-)

@FrankMittelbach it was a reference to the first not so informative line of my reply:-)

Frank Mittelbach

does anybody understands why Marco is unable to "send mail to latex-l"

7:17 PM

No, it's been mentioned before but I don't get it either!

Ah, some LaTeX3 experts. Is there some necessary magic to make a .dtx with LaTeX3 commands? My usual \begin{macro}{\macroname} complains vociferously with my_amazing_lthree_function instead of \macroname.

@FrankMittelbach Few minutes ago I answered on LaTeX-L. I got no error message.

I sent a reply to Joseph's subject "Deprecated functions".

@AndrewStacey Are you using l3doc?

@JosephWright Probably not.

Frank Mittelbach

@MarcoDaniel so does this mean that you can now send to latex-l? or that you send but nothing happens?

user19161

7:29 PM

I have a quick, silly question. Can we just copy the whole texlive folder from one computer to another and everything will work?

@AndrewStacey You'll need either l3doc or an appropriate set of package (we use underscore for this, I think, but @WillRobertson would be the expert)

@ClarkKent If the needed binaries are the same, basically yes.

@FrankMittelbach I sent and nothing happened yet. I spoke about this behaviour with @JosephWright and he mentioned that I can only read. Only members of the LaTeX3 team can post on LaTeX-L

@ClarkKent I actually did that with my WiiTeX project. It kinda work, except for glibc. :P

Frank Mittelbach

@AndrewStacey basically doc.sty is not smart enough to envision that we could come up with using _ and : ... :-)

7:31 PM

@MarcoDaniel No, you really should be able to post if you've registered.

Frank Mittelbach

@MarcoDaniel I'm sure @Joseph didn'tsay THAT

@MarcoDaniel Try via listserv.uni-heidelberg.de/cgi-bin/wa?INDEX

If you have a log in there, you should be able to post

Frank Mittelbach

@MarcoDaniel again, did you subscribe, i.e., did you send a mail to listserv@.... with the content subscribe LATEX-L

because if you only read via some gateway then yes you can#t send mails

user19161

@egreg @paulo OK thanks. The only thing I can think of is to run fc-cache on Linux for XeTeX to find the fonts on the new system and also add the path to the new system. I remember there was another problem the last time I tried to do it but can't recall. Hmm, maybe I'll try again next time.

@FrankMittelbach Yes. Here a picture

user image

7:34 PM

@JosephWright, @FrankMittelbach Okay, I put \documentclass{l3doc} and got a whole new slew of error messages! Starting with Undefined control sequence \clist_use:N \l_doc_macro_input_clist. This is at the second \end{macro}.

@FrankMittelbach: Please wait.

@AndrewStacey Ah, that one. It means that you've not got your \begin ... \end blocks matched. We really aught to get a proper error sorted out: I'll add to the To Do list!

To be clear, you get it because we've not set things up properly, not as a deliberate error!

Frank Mittelbach

@JosephWright I never had that ... so I must write proper code (or never write code these days ;-)

@MarcoDaniel meaning?

@FrankMittelbach Usually pops up when I compile source3 for release. You'll often see a 'fixed missing \end...` just before 'CTAN snapshot' in the log:-)

@ClarkKent Yes: the "system setup" cannot be obtained by copying the tree. Also the setup of the environment variables is necessary.

7:39 PM

@FrankMittelbach I think I made a mistake. I found an e-mail where I send "SUBSCRIBE LATEX-L Marco Daniel". But I didn't subscribe via uni-heidelberg.

@JosephWright: I'll try to send you some LaTeX3 stuff until the end of the week. :)

Frank Mittelbach

@PauloCereda cool

@JosephWright Thanks! That fixed it.

@FrankMittelbach Now it should work

user image

Frank Mittelbach

@MarcoDaniel and what do you do to send a post? you send mail to latex-l@... ?

from the email account that you subscribed with?

7:47 PM

@FrankMittelbach I am to shy to test my new settings ;-)

Frank Mittelbach

coward :-)

just write how wonderful you think the work is that Joseph is doing

@FrankMittelbach Done ;-)

@FrankMittelbach Next time I will read the whole paragraph. This is a non-public mailing list, which means that you have to subscribe to the list to post to it. If you're already subscribed to the list, Gmane can forward the message you sent to the list if you respond to this message. If not, you should sign up to the mailing list first, and then respond to this message, or just forget about it.

Frank Mittelbach

@MarcoDaniel oh Rainer seems to have done something so that even gmane works ... hmm and i just claimed that gmane is read only ...

@FrankMittelbach I am using gmane ;-)

INFO: Markus Kohm uploaded a new version of KOMA-Script. He wrote A new English user manual with the same structure and completely translated content of the German user manual is provided. There are still several issues with the translation, nevertheless, it's much better than the previous English manual.

6

@MarcoDaniel Message has arrived on LaTeX-L - yay!

8:02 PM

@JosephWright YAY ;-)

I found an interesting article: Every odd number greater than 1 is the sum of at most five primes

Yay!

Ich spreche kein Deutsche. :)

Frank Mittelbach

@PauloCereda isch och nett ...and yay is not a dialect I know either

@FrankMittelbach Uh-oh. :)

Frank Mittelbach

@Marco perhaps you should clarify your comment that posting to latex-l is impossible for you on the answer comment

@MarcoDaniel Oh wow, reading (i.e. looking at) that kind of stuff makes me feel terribly, terribly stupid.

8:15 PM

Oops, wrong window.

8:26 PM

@MarcoDaniel It seems not like the usual proofs of the Goldbach conjecture; but I'd wait till it's been accepted. :) However, the "odd Goldbach conjecture" (every odd integer is the sum of at most 3 primes) does not imply the Goldbach conjecture.

Speaking of Goldbach, there's a nice story book I read about it: "Uncle Petros and Goldbach's Conjecture".

amazon.com/Petros-Goldbachs-Conjecture-Apostolos-Doxiadis/dp/…

user19161

@egreg Oh? You mean attempted proofs? Unless the Goldbach's conjecture has become Goldbach's theorem!

@ClarkKent Yes, of course. I should have put "proofs" between quotes. :)

user19161

@egreg It might become egreg's theorem soon!

@ClarkKent Beautifully typeset in LaTeX, of course. :)

user19161

8:40 PM

@PauloCereda With a foreword by Paulo. :-)

@ClarkKent I have no idea how to start. :)

And with lots of TikZ pictures so everyone can understand it?

Speaking of maths, this one was posted in 9gag:

user19161

@Jake Ah yes, Paulo can write the foreword, you can do the pictures, and I will just do the printing. :-)

@ClarkKent Simple proof: it's too nice to be false. :)

8:42 PM

user image

@ClarkKent And @Jake is in charge of the plots. :)

@egreg My proof: a bigger older kid told me it was true. :)

Re Goldbach conjecture: the pilot episode of the Inspector Morse spinoff series (aka Lewis) was about mathematics and one protagonist was a Fields medalist who'd won their medal for their work on the conjecture. It was a rare treat: a show which included mathematics that didn't make me cringe in embarassment.

Or even embarrassment;

user19161

@AndrewStacey I remember watching mathnet when I was very young. It was some drama shown as a small part of some kid's show, I can't remember the name. Oh and if you are interested, the Debian Administrator's Handbook is out under a free license, written by Raphael Hertzog and Roland Mas.

Frank Mittelbach

@AndrewStacey just watched season 5

I like Futurama's math references. :)

@FrankMittelbach *desperately tries to remember if it was Season 5 or 4 that we just watched - have to wait until they come out on DVD*

Frank Mittelbach

8:57 PM

@AndrewStacey last one on DVD is season 5 ... I just preorder season 6 which comes out next month

@ClarkKent Not heard of mathnet. And I'm scared that you know I use Debian! (I know I mention it from time to time so I'm not that scared - maybe more surprised that anyone actually reads these witterings)

@FrankMittelbach Hmm, should probably wait and order it in the UK then.

Frank Mittelbach

@AndrewStacey that's where i get mine from UK amazon for 15 quid

@AndrewStacey Not as scared as the day I mentioned your Thargelion machine. :)

@LaTeX3ers: So xparse always wraps a mandatory argument in braces. So how do I do \def\applycmd#1#2{#1{#2}}\applycmd\emph{hello}?

@PauloCereda Yeah, then I was worried. Fortunately, I already had your credit card number so it was easy to install a cyber-worm to be unleashed if I ever get too worried.

@FrankMittelbach Sometimes stuff from Amazon takes more time than expected to get here to Norway. Our last order came with a big stamp saying "Missent to Thailand". We'll be in the UK from early July so probably best to order it then.

Frank Mittelbach

@AndrewStacey and cheaper because of the packaging and anyway it comes out only in June I think

9:05 PM

@AndrewStacey Huh?

@JosephWright I'm using xparse to define a document command. I want to call it with the names of two macros that will then be used inside it. In pure l3, I want to define a command of signature :NN. But the documentation for xparse says that it always puts braces around its arguments, so #1 would be {\mycmd} and I couldn't do #1{some argument} to call \mycmd with {some argument}.

@AndrewStacey You can't trust users :-)

At the moment, we've not had any cases where a user would supply something which has to be a single token, so it's not come up

@JosephWright Found a way. Pass them to a genuine l3 function then that strips away the braces.

@AndrewStacey Uh-oh! :)

Yet again, I've learnt more about LaTeX3 than I ever wanted to! Might even start using it properly now. It sort of grows on one...

@PauloCereda So be nice when we finally get round to doing that interview.

9:19 PM

@AndrewStacey What's wrong with this?

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{xparse}
\NewDocumentCommand{\applycmd}{mm}{#1{#2}}
\begin{document}
\applycmd\emph{text}
\end{document}

user19161

9:39 PM

@AndrewStacey Well, we talked about it together, and I remember everything everyone tells me in chat!

Frank Mittelbach

@AndrewStacey My point really is that xparse is totally misused these days. The original intention was to only provide a document wrapper layer that transforms input syntax to standardized internal syntax, but not to do any programming in the body. And applying one command like that to some other structure is programming so it should happen inside the internal command

I know that adding an artificial layer seems like an unnecessary overkill initially, thus people program in the body as they did in \newcommand but this is the 2e/2.09 approach

@AlanMunn That combination of fonts reminds me of something we discussed some time ago about a church. :)

9:56 PM

@egreg Yes it does. Maybe I should offer my services to typeset their new sign. (Apparently they're moving to a larger building.)

@AlanMunn Show that example: they'll certainly hire you. :)

@MartinScharrer There seems to be something weird with the way your .tds.zip list is generated here: tex.stackexchange.com/q/24636/2693. Only one of my packages appears in the list, but all three have .tds.zip files on CTAN.

10:17 PM

Nothing works in IE.

user19161

@DavidCarlisle Except the Microsoft Update site which requires it!

@ClarkKent it wasn't a general statement, it was none of my code works:-) If you follow the transcript up an hour (or two or three) you'll see a comment from me saying I was going to port something to IE, but I'm giving up for the day:-(

@Werner: Sorry, I didn't see that you added the color tag to tex.stackexchange.com/questions/55979/…. I'm not sure that this is really appropriate here, since it's not specifically concerned with colouring something (I think).

@Jake You rule dude. No problem. :)

10:42 PM

I'm considering to use PF's "Learning to fly" for my next arara video. Seems to fit the occasion. :)

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