TeX, LaTeX and Friends - 2011-12-17

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12:00 AM

That would be better done at an engine-level, perhaps, but would it make sense to do the following for ebook readers: LaTeX -> TeX primitives (essentially a line-break-less dvi), use that as an ebook format, and compile on the fly to whatever hsize is requested?

@Canageek: I have a surprise for you. :)

Since there'd be no macro definition in that stripped-down-TeX, we could remove some chunks from the underlying TeX engine.

@PauloCereda Should I be scared?

@Canageek Not yet. :)

I'm uploading the video.

@BrunoLeFloch I don't think they did that way. At River Valley they use conversion to XML and back to LaTeX for archival purposes.

12:11 AM

@egreg Sure. I'm just saying that it could be an option which allows the full power of TeX macro programming.

@BrunoLeFloch Why not just use a subset of tex as the default format? Is pure tex that insane for basic stuff?

@Canageek For printing a simple book not much is actually required. The big problem are cross-references.

@egreg Yes, but cross-references in an ebook can be resolved to simply numbers. The section numbers etc would be hard-coded in the stripped-TeX file.

The TeXbook itself doesn't use overly complicated code (except for the examples and verbatim text, of course). manmac.tex is just 27kiB

@BrunoLeFloch Yes, that's what probably should happen.

It's taking forever to render the movie. :(

12:20 AM

@egreg kiB? You must be a mac user.

@egreg So at the end of the day, is it useful that I write this LaTeX -> TeX primitives converter? It is quite a lot of work since I need to write code for each individual non-expandable primitive, be careful with grouping, tables, etc. Do you think it would be better for me to consider an engine-level solution?

@Canageek That's the official recommendation of the CIPM

@BrunoLeFloch If you have much spare time ...

@egreg kiB? Really? I thought everyone just used powers of 2 as it was simpler and made more sense for the computer, since that is how the computer works.

@Canageek Writing kB is ambiguous and actually hard disk manufacturers use GB to mean 1000000000 bytes. So the committee recommended different prefixes.

Good night all

@egreg well, what do I use to mean 1024 bytes, where 1 byte = 8 bits then?

Night

12:32 AM

@egreg Buonanotte! :)

@egreg Good night egreg

@Canageek: I'm sorry, it's taking a lot of time for rendering the video. I'll probably send you the link tomorrow.

Oh hi @Bruno. :)

@PauloCereda Ok, I've got an exam tomorrow so probably will not see it until tonight anyway.

@Canageek good luck with your exam. :) And sorry about the video.

@PauloCereda No idea what you are talking about anyway!

12:39 AM

@Canageek It's a new app. You'll probably like it. :)

12:49 AM

Bed time for me too. Good night! :)

Night

Good night :2741056

Damn. That ":2741056" should be @Paulo.

1 hour later…

2:06 AM

@Alan Munn: the "apostrophe s" attacks again!

2:17 AM

I had never thoght that plural of acronyms ending in an "s" could have apostrophe and "s": tex.stackexchange.com/q/38558/3954

2:43 AM

@GonzaloMedina Yes, that's a tough one. I'm generally against using the apostrophe with plurals of acronyms, but for ones that end in S the apostrophe looks (grudgingly) better. In my field, we use lots of common acronyms, but luckily most end in P (for phrase) or are single letters.

@AlanMunn I hope this time I get it right: "acronyms' plurals" and not "acronyms's plurals".

3:02 AM

@GonzaloMedina Perfect. :-)

6 hours later…

8:46 AM

Frank Mittelbach has posted an answer!

5

3

A: Does TeX always insert the macro \par?

There are exactly 7 places in the TeX program where TeX executes the paragraph builder internally, i.e. turning a horizontal list (if there is one under construction) into a paragraph. This happens not by inserting a \par token into the input stream but by executing the procedure end_graf impleme...

Yay, Frank is here! :)

\o/ I lured Frank here :D

@BrunoLeFloch Impressive, as he's never posted to c.t.t. that I know of

(@PauloCereda: Frank reached that question from an issue I posted on the LaTeX3 github repository.)

@BrunoLeFloch Ah cool! :D

tinypic.com/r/zvzc48/5

Canageek gave me idea of writing this tool. I'm thinking of a serious development.

(Sorry, I don't have Microsoft Office in that laptop, I had to use OpenOffice instead.)

8:56 AM

@BrunoLeFloch I suggest you move the accepted answer mark

@BrunoLeFloch Yay! Now let's bring him here. :P

@JosephWright I was pondering that, but answering your regex email. I've just moved the tick.

Also, can you change l3box to include \par, or should I?

@PauloCereda Can't watch it on this computer :(.

@BrunoLeFloch We need to check for all possible cases, as Frank says. I'm off out in a few minutes, but will do this this afternoon my time.

Give me say 7 hours: Christmas shopping to do with my mum is today's priority

@BrunoLeFloch Ah I forgot, no flash. :) I wrote a quick tool called Crocodile to convert ppt/pptx slides to beamer.

@JosephWright I think there are a couple of cases which we can't treat now (alignments at least need \par inserted in the preamble, or go for an active &).

@PauloCereda Why crocodile?

@JosephWright I wish I could. Not at home at Christmas neither last year nor this year.

9:03 AM

@BrunoLeFloch That's the only name I could think of (eat your PPT(X) files!). But I'm open to suggestions. :)

@PauloCereda I'm not good with names :(.

@BrunoLeFloch At the moment, no, but we should do all the cases we currently cover

@BrunoLeFloch I'm just looking at github.com/latex3/svn-mirror/issues/60: I see the point about the docs but not use of \prg_new_eq_conditional:..., as we do use it already

I could name it ppt2beamer, but it's not funny.

@JosephWright I didn't check carefully. I might have gotten that impression because we produce variants by hand. Not sure whether we use \prg_new_eq_conditional: comprehensively.

@BrunoLeFloch I did a sweep over l3kernel: there do not seem to be any places there that it would work but is not used at present. I'll check the rest of LaTeX3 later. Expect a doc update also.

9:09 AM

@JosephWright Ok, thanks (and sorry for the false alert).

I'm re-organizing the user commands in l3regex.

@BrunoLeFloch I remember now why the doc is wrong. In my own experiments I simply said 'right, do p, T, F and TF in all cases', then forgot that the official version is a little different

@JosephWright Ok. I oscillate a lot on what's best there.

@PauloCereda Indeed, it isn't funny. But then pdfTeX isn't that funny either :).

@BrunoLeFloch :D

beamerzilla would be acceptable.

@PauloCereda is it related to mozilla in some way? That may confuse your users :).

9:28 AM

@BrunoLeFloch Oh my! :D How about poifs2beamer?

POIFS: Poor Obfuscation Implementation File System.

9:53 AM

"The machine is now angry."

@PauloCereda Nice :). And I have no idea why it played (didn't have the magic "&html5=True" that you had told me to add a couple of weeks ago.

@BrunoLeFloch Hm only if YouTube has now a default HTML5 fallback when flash is not detected.

BTW, what if that machine is running TeX? :P

@PauloCereda \def\spin#1{\rotatebox{1}{\spin{#1}}}\spin{\machine}

3

@BrunoLeFloch LOL

@PauloCereda Did I get the \rotatebox syntax right? I never use that.

10:02 AM

@BrunoLeFloch Neither do I. :)

@PauloCereda dunno.

@Bruno: nice to see Frank around. :)

Lol. "Poop Reward" which gives users cell-phone minutes for going to public toilets.

10:39 AM

@BrunoLeFloch OMG. :P

Seems to have been some trouble with this question. I originally thought it was a duplicate, but it isn't, and now it's getting closed for it :) Should I delete it and try again? Or maybe the close-votes are for another question? I can't see the alternatives since I've already voted.

0

Q: How to make latexmk give up immediately on error?

I'm using latexmk -pdf to compile my LaTeX documents. How can I make it give up immediately and present me with the error message as soon as it encounters an error, instead of giving me a debug prompt?

errors latexmk debugging

@TimN I believe it's better to delete it and start a new one (give a reference to the old question, saying it's not a duplicate).

@BrunoLeFloch How to stop the washing machine spinning? Help, it doesn't stop!

4

@egreg: Ok, will do.

The wheels on the bus go round and round. Round and round, round and round. The wheels on the bus go round and round. All through the town.

11:32 AM

@egreg \def\spin#1{\rotatebox{\pdfelapsedtime}{#1}\par\ifnum2400>\pdfelapsedtime\spin{‌#1}\fi} should get going for 45 minutes.

(That's \$1.75 in my appartment complex's dryer machines.)

@BrunoLeFloch Oh, thanks! Now I can use my washing machine via TeX!

Speaking of \pdfelapsedtime, I most definitely abused it in a code golf question on how to print "It's Christmas" on Christmas. :)

I don't have a washing machine. sob :(

I love deltarpm's. Total update w/o delta: 524mb; w/ delta: 70mb. :)

4 hours later…

3:41 PM

GARHRHRH MY DOCUMENT WILL NOT RENDER, I CAN NOT FIND THE ERROR

@N3buchadnezzar Divide and conquer

egreg

I did that, for an hour

It stops rendering almost at the top of the document at this part

\begin{losninger}
Vi kan trekke ut den felles faktoren her. Eventuelt kan vi også si at $a=(x-1)$ for å se omformingen litt lettere
\begin{align*}
x(x-1) - 2(x-1) = x \cdot a - 2 \cdot a = a \left( x - 2 \right) = (x-1)(x-2)
\end{align*}
Her kan vi også bruke $abc$-formelen, men det er jeg for lat til.\\
\end{losninger}

It says I am missing a parenthesis, but nothing about where to find it

@N3buchadnezzar Try deleting the .aux and .toc files.

pastebin.com/TiLBEB8G

Sigh, that did not help =(

4:02 PM

@N3buchadnezzar: I'm pretty sure the problem is in the lines with \\ \end{losninger}

I should replace them with \bigskip or something?

@N3buchadnezzar Good question. Probably @egreg has a suggestion. :)

Haha

If I do not replace it by anything the spacing between the elements in enumerate, is too narrow. Perhaps adjusting the baselineskip in the enumerate is the best solution

@N3buchadnezzar Difficult to say something without knowing how losninger is defined.

Losninger is the same as solutions. And is defined in the preamble.

Basically it is just a hide and show feature, by the \comment package =)

4:20 PM

0

Q: Source Code Indentation

I was wondering if it is possible to indent the code like in most programming languages as shown below: \part \chapter \section \subsection etc. This would make the source code much more readable. So is it possible? If yes how?

indentation sourcecode

I don't think it will improve readability in that case. :(

@N3buchadnezzar First of all, I don't see any necessity of a global enumerate environment, but it's a matter of taste. I don't see what's the problem why you're using `\` at those places, either.

@PauloCereda I never use indentation in TeX documents, except in definitions or some special place. The LaTeX markers are more than sufficient.

I usually indent \items , purely for my own pleassure

@egreg Good point, that's what I thought. Code indentation might be useful in macros, definitions, but not in the level the OP is asking.

I don't indent anything either. :D

Some editors have folding features, so code could be "hidden" to improve readability.

4:37 PM

@N3buchadnezzar In some cases I might indent (by two spaces) an inner list, but never rely on automatic indenting by the editor. Broken lines of a tabular are usually indented, to show that they are not new lines. A good syntax coloring scheme is sufficient, in general.

Yeah, I never rely on automatic indenting either. =)

The OP asked for some editor feature. I could mention TeXlipse Correct indentation command, but no. :P

Texmaxer offers automatic correct indentation, also known as no indentation.

@PauloCereda I think this is fantastic. Maybe you should name it ppeamer :p

The video I meant

And may i suggest HyperCam for smaller sized videos?

if you don't mind the watermark at the topleft

4:52 PM

@percusse Thanks. :) I'll try to write an stable code in the beginning of the year. To be honest, I like crocodile, but I'd love a fancier name. :)

@percusse Hm interesting, I'll take a look, thanks. Most of my videos are recorded on Linux or Mac, so I'm out of ideas for tools. :)

@PauloCereda I really like the idea. It would reduce the questions of like ppt2beamer, yet it would boost questions with crocodile tag :)

@PauloCereda The whole process of converting from beamer <-> ppt makes me think of the wave-particle duality: beamer = beam = laser = wave of light <-> particle of light = point of light/power = power-point.

Dunno how to make a name out of that, though.

@BrunoLeFloch Awesome idea, Bruno (as aways). :)

@BrunoLeFloch Pick a physicist: De Broglie, I guess

@BrunoLeFloch \frame{reference} ? :P

5:05 PM

And now Frank Mittelbach has commented one of my questions. :-)

4

Q: Defining variants of \small and \large that use \normalsize's line spacing

As a partial workaround for grid typesetting, I'd like to define variants of \small and \large that behave like their standard counterparts except that they use the line spacing of \normalsize. I know that I can look up the respective macro definitions for, e.g., the 10pt standard class option in...

macros fontsize line-spacing starred-version grids

@lockstep Very nice to see him here and active.

@egreg I don't expect him to deliver many answers, but surely very interesting ones.

@JosephWright Difficult to pronounce, so it's risky for an app name

@lockstep He's a very fine connoisseur of TeX internals.

@egreg And the LaTeX visionary.

5:11 PM

user image

Work in progress.

@BrunoLeFloch Perfectly easy to pronounce, just not in English :-)

@PauloCereda You could perhaps make the crocodile's mouth into a projector to another screen.

@JosephWright Broglie => Breuil is confusing to most Frenchmen too.

@lockstep He wrote a paper in which he talked also about grid typesetting: tug.org/TUGboat/tb21-3/tb68mittel.pdf

@egreg xor can do grid typesetting: see the demo docs

5:15 PM

Speaking of names...

@BrunoLeFloch His family was from Piedmont; there's a place called Breuil (now in the region Vallée d'Aoste, then part of Piedmont).

I don't know how to pronounce Broglie. :(

@JosephWright I'll try. Not very interested in grid typesetting, as math is quite difficult to manage properly, I believe.

@PauloCereda Just read "Breuil" in French. :)

@egreg Yes, in general. Grid typesetting is more important for other areas, I think

@PauloCereda At university, the advice was 'De Broy' was ~ phonetic (at least 'good enough'). His Wikipedia entry has a recording

Louis de Broglie

Louis-Victor-Pierre-Raymond, 7th duc de Broglie, FRS (; ; Dieppe, France, 15 August 1892 – Louveciennes, France, 19 March 1987) was a French physicist and a Nobel laureate in the year 1929. He was the sixteenth member elected to occupy seat 1 of the Académie française in 1944, and served as Perpetual Secretary of the Académie des sciences, France. Biography Louis de Broglie was born to a noble family in Dieppe, Seine-Maritime, younger son of Victor, 5th duc de Broglie. He became the 7th duc de Broglie upon the death without heir in 1960 of his older brother, Maurice, 6th duc de Brog...

@JosephWright Wow, perfect. :)

5:26 PM

@PauloCereda forvo suggests: forvo.com/search/Broglie

@GonzaloMedina No! Now I'm really confused. :P

@PauloCereda You mean by the differences in pronunciation?

@GonzaloMedina Yes. :) And they sound exactly the opposite I thought it was. :P

@JosephWright I got \regex_extract_all:nnN { \c{ (pm|mp) } } { \pm \mp } \l_foo_tl to work \o/. It's a little slow, though :(.

@BrunoLeFloch I'll test later

5:32 PM

@JosephWright Yep, no hurry. I'm just happy :)

I think I'll name it broccoli. Everybody needes broccoli.

2

@PauloCereda Broccoli is a nice name for a crocodile. Just like TeX is a good name for a lion.

@PauloCereda my daughter will then hate it ;-)

@GonzaloMedina Aw when I was a kid, I didn't like broccoli and Brussels sprouts. :P

@BrunoLeFloch LOL epic.

Now we need to convince Frank to come here in the chatroom. :)

@PauloCereda I think he might be too busy for that :)

5:47 PM

@BrunoLeFloch Indeed. :)

Come on, guys -- Frank is still two upvotes away from earning "Mortarboard". ;-)

I'm always wondering if I'm coding very slowly or if TeX is just too hard to get things done quickly. I've been on l3regex for weeks now, easily 30h a week, and it's still got lots to be done.

@lockstep I already voted. :P

@PauloCereda Me too.

@PauloCereda Who would have guessed? ;-)

5:51 PM

@lockstep There's a plot against me going on. :D

First day, first rep cap. It would be awesome. :)

@PauloCereda He's still got some time. When do days end? @lockstep just change some tags on that question in a couple of hours to bump it to the top. Surely three people will see it and upvote?

@BrunoLeFloch Great plan. :)

@BrunoLeFloch The tags are perfect. Anybody to suggest a typo which could be corrected (but not right now ;-))?

@PauloCereda Not with only one answer!

@lockstep precisely today I am already out of votes!

5:56 PM

@lockstep Someone could inadvertently rollback a version. :P

@GonzaloMedina From now on you'll have to keep a MEV ("Mittelbach emergency vote").

5

@lockstep There's a "to" in the last paragraph that should be "two": "when TeX replaces two endline chars by \par".

@lockstep "In none of these cases there is a \par token inserted (that might be subject to redefinitions) but the end_graf procedure executed!" sounds odd as well.

and "equiv" -> "equivalent" would be nice.

"more or less nothing if the in horizontal mode" odd as well

@BrunoLeFloch It probably doesn't sound too odd to lockstep; it's German style, I believe.

@egreg Indeed.

6:01 PM

@egreg Well, the end is definitely missing a verb: "the end_graf procedure is executed!"

@egreg, @BrunoLeFloch: Please implement these corrections around, say, 22 UTC. (I won't be here then because I'll join a Tarock game.)

6:16 PM

@JosephWright: Few minutes ago I read your article in the "TeXnische Komödie" -- You write like a native German ;-)

I keep meaning to join DAnTe: I know how much the CTAN node costs them!

Ich trinke Wasser.

@lockstep What time is it UTC now?

(there we go again.)

@MarcoDaniel Which article was it?

6:18 PM

@BrunoLeFloch About 18:15.

@lockstep Then I won't be there at 22.

@JosephWright The German one of of the LaTeX3 Roadmap : texdev.net/2011/09/05/latex3-roadmap

@MarcoDaniel Oh right, I didn't know that was being translated: it say who did it?

And actually, I should probably get off this chair rather soon and stop coding.

@JosephWright The article was presented without the announcement of an translator. So I thought you wrote this.

6:21 PM

@MarcoDaniel My German is not up to that, I'm afraid. Ich spreche nur ein Bisschen Deutsch

Perhaps it was one of the other LaTeX3 team members

I'll ask about :-)

@JosephWright But very interesting article. It seems the l3keys is stable enough for my second package

@MarcoDaniel We are moving to l3kernel being very stable indeed. That's one of the reasons I keep reminding @BrunoLeFloch about l3fp: it's a potentially-breaking change so I want to get it done.

@BrunoLeFloch What the heck ... I edited Frank's post. Please check my corrections.

@JosephWright Thanks for the information.

@JosephWright Very interesting how many people know Frank Mittelbach.

6:37 PM

@JosephWright It's also a very difficult thing to get completely right. I'm aiming to get no performance hit, but with 16 digits accuracy, consistent rounding, exception handling, parsing of infix operations, etc.

And I'm very distractible.

@lockstep Yep, that looks good to me. And Frank hit the rep cap I believe!

@BrunoLeFloch Yeah, looks good!

BTW -- good bye, and nice evening to every one!

Gnight all, I'm off too.

Good night @lockstep, good night @Bruno. :)

@lockstep Have a nice Tarock night!

7:30 PM

Mission accomplished. Frank Mittelbach earned the Mortarboard badge. :)

7:56 PM

@PauloCereda We need a new badge -- Earned 200 Rep at the first login day ;-)

@MarcoDaniel Indeed. :)

8:57 PM

@MarcoDaniel Well, Frank's reputation in the LaTeX world is much higher than that. :)

I bought his book! Yay!

@PauloCereda I've got The LaTeX Companion and the related series: do you mean one of these?

@JosephWright I mean The LaTeX Companion. :) I'm eager to learn more. :D

9:33 PM

@JosephWright: I was wondering if we could write a blog post about the skillz contest.

@PauloCereda Probably a job for you :-)

@JosephWright I'll take it. :) I just don't know about possible prizes.

9:49 PM

@AlanMunn I've taken the liberty of adding -synctex=1 to an entry in your answer about TeXStudio's paths.

10:06 PM

@egreg Thanks. I've updated the screenshot too.

@AlanMunn It would be quite interesting to try understanding why some program strings, all different from each other, should be changed into the same. :)

@egreg Developers... :P

@egreg It's the "But I only use one of them anyway" mentality. (Like the guy who is going the wrong way down a one-way street. "But officer, I was only going one way.")

@PauloCereda No, the developer mentality is characterized by "Here's a fork. Now go and eat your soup."

@PauloCereda The default of TeXStudio is not having any prefix, just the executable. A normal installation of MacTeX does adjust the PATH variable, so there should be no need of explicitly adding /usr/texbin. Maybe the OP didn't do a logout after installing MacTeX

@AlanMunn In some places in Italy no officer would note the wrong way. :) :(

@AlanMunn LOL I'll make a T-shirt with that phrase. :)

@egreg Indeed. A logout would probably adjust the path settings.

10:21 PM

@egreg I once saw a car in Italy get stuck between a parked car and a lamppost: it was trying to pass the parked car by driving on the sidewalk because there was a delivery truck stopped in the road.

@PauloCereda I've opened my (never used) TeXstudio and it's how I supposed.

@egreg I think this is the second time for me.

@egreg Ah. :) I don't have it installed.

@AlanMunn I've seen a small scooter carrying two people (it was not allowed, at the time) crossing without respecting the red light; the one on the back was a policeman. :)

5

A: The effect of the anonymous letter

Here is a partial solution with the very experimental l3rand package for random numbers. It can be found in the l3trial directory of the LaTeX3 source code (see, e.g., the GitHub mirror). I've never taken time to learn how to load other fonts, so you should probably customize the list of font ch...

@BrunoLeFloch: Awesome answer!!!!

10:24 PM

@PauloCereda Mythical

@egreg Beautiful kidnapping letters typesetting. Spooky.

@PauloCereda Now we know how to write the anonymous letters. Who are we going to blackmail?

@egreg Let's find some known TeXnician who secretly uses Microsoft Office and write a letter. :D

@PauloCereda That maybe most of us. I think only the hard core never use Word. Most of us have to interact with other people, and in large institutions like universities, those other people all use Word.

@AlanMunn True. It's probably one of the most spread formats. I submit stuff to some conferences and they only accept the final version in doc format. I use odp with LibreOffice, but doc is still #1.

I was playing with the Office format yesterday for my PowerPoint -> Beamer translation tool. The format is very messy.

10:46 PM

@AlanMunn I never use… Word (think to Bela Lugosi's voice saying the famous line).

@egreg Or is that really in a Captain Corcoran voice? youtube.com/watch?v=c548RjB8jzQ

@egreg Epic! :) With the "V" sound instead of "W", I suppose. :D

@PauloCereda Of course! I always say "Vord". :)

Is there any way to find questions/answers posted on an specific date, say, May 10/2011?

@GonzaloMedina Sadly, it seems there's no way. In meta SO, they say that the current workaround is to just isolate the search by pagination or use the newest filter.

@AlanMunn Bravo! Ahoy! Ahoy! Over the bright blue sea! :)

11:03 PM

@PauloCereda Now we can write ransom notes, blurred and looking like written by an Cthulhu worshipping madmen.

3

@PauloCereda Ah, it's a shame. Thank you. I didn't understand a single word of the current workaround ;-)

@GonzaloMedina In other words, they recommend us to do a normal search then try to find the one we want amongst the ton of results. :)

@PauloCereda Seeing this, now I don't understand the meaning of workaround :-)

@GonzaloMedina "Anonymous letters from a present-hungry Cthulhu worshipping mad kid who loves Santa and uses Microsoft Office." :P

@GonzaloMedina They are giving us forks and telling us to go eat our soup. :P

Sorry, \cite{amunn:2011}.

;)

11:26 PM

An answer of mine from November 2010 got accepted today.

@lockstep I'm still waiting to get more upvotes than you on the biblatex-mla question. Even after I posted a comment that your answer (posted in good faith) wouldn't work with the mla style, someone still upvoted it.

@AlanMunn Perhaps some of my upvoters haven't re-checked the question. In any case, your answer should become the accepted one.

@lockstep How was your Tarock game?

@egreg I ended with rank 3 (from 4 players). Some of the games were quite interesting (and ended with narrow defeats).

@lockstep :(

11:41 PM

@egreg Nothing to worry about. The first and foremost aim is to experience an inspiring game.

@lockstep And enjoying a good beer and good company.

@egreg Exactly. :-)

@lockstep What do you think is the best Austrian beer?

@egreg There are too many of them. There are times when I prefer "black beer", and "Zwettler" is a quite good one.

People say here that black beer is good during the winter. :)

11:48 PM

@PauloCereda They are right. And during summer, you can mix black beer and normal beer.

@lockstep Zwettl is not very far from Bohemia and České Budějovice, which is very famous for beer.

I remember a quite good brewery in Freistadt.

Also very near to Budweis.

@egreg I have visited Bohemia with my bike in the summer of 2010 and can confirm that the beer is indeed very good there.

@lockstep Tarock sounds interesting, but I only found an article in the German Wikipedia describing it and my German fails me. Do you know of any quick on.line reference article in English?

@GonzaloMedina There' a short section in the English wikipedia about Tarot and Tarock, too.

I've never played a game with so many cards. We play truco with "only" 40 cards.

11:57 PM

@PauloCereda I'm playing the "Königrufen" Tarock variant with 54 cards.

@lockstep Thanks; they don't give much details, but I now have an idea.

@lockstep It seems very interesting! :)

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