@AdamHeeg I'm happy to entertain the conversation, but I have a lot to attend to, so I can't promise to be quick. I was intent on responding to your comments, but you're probably right that chat is a more suitable place. It'll have to be when I'm able to set aside some time, though.
@AdamHeeg One of the downvotes was mine. I guess we're all supposed to use up- and down votes as ways of letting the posts we favour rise to the top? Nothing personal, I am just opposed to the use of punishment in child rearing.
Suggestions, then, to apply punishment once you've threatened with one, is not something I'll support. Better not to threaten of course, but if you have, I would favour reneging on a threat of punishment over applying it.
Can we back up for a second though? I work with kids in school, sports, and extra curricular activities. I also have 3, the oldest is 16, and she would of course say I'm not perfect and she'd be right. However, as noted there is a difference between theory and practicality. Are you in a position where you have implemented this ideas and are speaking from personal experience, or is it more ideas for you? (note, i'm not against ideas, it is how we grow).
From a personal experience point of view, you're ahead of me by far. I just have two kids myself, and the oldest is four. With them I've practiced cooperative parenting for their entire lives, though. But I draw upon authors who have worked a long time in the field, and in Sweden, where I'm from, corporal punishment and isolating punishment such as grounding and probably time out (probably because it hasn't been tried in court) have been illegal for 50+ years.
Most of the parenting books I've read are library books, so I don't have scientific references readily at hand. (And the vast majority are by Swedish and Danish authors.) But the books of Ross W. Greene (Raising human beings, Lost and found) and Alfie Kohn (Unconditional Parenting) are some works that deal specifically with raising children in a cooperative non-authoritarian manner. Greene specializing in kids exhibiting problem behaviours.
So I can only say the books were thoroughly referenced; I'm not able to apply the sources.
I'm sure there are parts you'll disagree about, but it's not as simple as saying the entire discipline is inapplicable to parenting.
@DavidHedlund ok, that clears a lot up. Obviously I'm a conservative in the USA and from a fundamental perspective we don't agree. However, I am intrigued by what has happened in your country.
we have a lot more broken homes and fatherless children i believe
I have reviewed the opening information on Autonomy Support Parenting, and it seems a lot of it is geared toward education learning and to LGBTQ+ topcis.
I think Sweden and the US are divergent to the point it'll be hard to pinpoint single differences as solitary causes. The fact that corporal punishment has been illegal since 1979 and was generally out of practice before then probably has an immense impact on our different mindsets.
But I can also see that 16 months of paid parental leave per children (3 of which are forfeit unless claimed by the father) also has a role to play in the prevalence of fatherless children.
There I'm out of my depth if you were to ask me for sources, but I'd be surprised if two so different systems did not play a crucial role.
Perhaps autonomy support carries specific meaning in English that doesn't translate well. Greene talks about collaborative non-punitive parenting. For starters, if you're interested: livesinthebalance.org/about-cps
You make great points. Perhaps we should include that information in our answers for the OP's benefit in considering. From my perspective I don't want to cause a parent to be breaking the law. That is not something I want to be responsible for.
I was mostly commenting on how it might reflect our differences in mindset. Surely, any Swedish parent following online advice on corporal punishment and ignoring the fact that it's illegal locally will be responsible for their own actions.
And I don't have a problem accepting that most of the content is viewed in an American context. Rather, regardless of laws, I am opposed to any use of punishment in child rearing. I'm acknowledging that the fact that it's been illegal for all my life may have played a role in shaping my views, but I'm not opposed to it because it is illegal.
If it helps, I never liked and always felt terrible inflicting corporal punishment. My kids were all different in the amount they needed/received. My middle child got the most, and at age 13 she has a badge of honor for taking the most work to get 'socialized/disciplined'. I can honestly say we have a great open and loving relationship. Anyway, my point is if you find over the next 5 years or so that your kids are doing well I'd love to hear about it.
My wife and I run 2 kids groups (church related) and we have to accept kids as they come. And let me tell you they are difficult, more than than the past according to our experience and the volunteers we have. I also personally feel like self-discipline is a core factor to success. So many kids get washed away by lack of discipline and the inability to complete basic requirements in the advanced society we've created in western culture.
To be clear, we have spoiled kids in Sweden too :) For me, a key distinction is that kids always know what they want, but not always what they need, and it is our imperative as adults to cater to the latter.
So I don't let my children run the household.
But obedience is not a trait I value. In fact, few things are scarier to me than obedient grown ups. I want to raise self-reflective, self-supportive human beings.
I'm giving you references to Greene, because that's what little English litterature I've read on the subject, but most of my views are derived from the works of physhologists like Bo Hejlskov, who has written extensively about these matters in Sweden.
Most of his work comes from dealing with children with ADHD and ASD. Areas where having tools that actually work is essential.
I'm glad we got to discuss. When time permits I'll try to look into the topic more. As a libertarian I agree that obedient grown ups is a scary thing. The pandemic proved that, on both sides.
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