Vedanta and Philosophy

Keshav Srinivasan

00:40

@Tezz You were residing in Brahman, haha

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan haha... don't worry you will also be residing in Brahman after few hours...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Haha

Tezz

01:03

@KeshavSrinivasan do Mimamsaka in their commentary or sutra talk to defend Rig Veda 10.86?...

Keshav Srinivasan

01:15

@Tezz No, they feel no need to defend inappropriate parts of the Samhitas, because they think everything in the Samhitas is just things that are said to remind the priest of what action he is supposed to be doing.

@Tezz And/or mere Arthavada designed to glorify actions.

@Tezz Shabara's commentary discusses a few mantras from the Samhitas to show that they are meaningful in order to defend against the Purvapakshin's objection that the Vedas are just meaningless ravings of madmen, but Rig Veda Book 10 Hymn 86 is not one of them.

@Tezz I discuss one mantra discussed by Shabara in the comment section of this answer:

By the way, this Rig Veda verse is mentioned in Jaimini's Mimamsa Sutras. A Purvapakshin or opponent makes the argument that the mantras of the Vedas are meaningless, because they mention impossible things like a bull with four horns, three feet, etc. Jaimini counters the argument by saying that the verse is figuratively talking about the different elements of a Yagna: gdurl.com/8v0g (The Purva Mimamsa school was skeptical of Hindu mythology as they were borderline agnostics/atheists.) But this Varaha Purana chapter demonstrates that it's referring to the literal bull of Dharma. — Keshav Srinivasan ♦ Apr 26 at 1:20

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan so what action do they remind by Rig Veda 10.86?...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz I'm not sure what Yagna the Vrishakapi hymn is used in, but it would be some action or actions that's part of that Yagna.

Tezz

Some take that four three two and seven.... related to age of Kalpas... 4320000000 ... (7 zeros)...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Oh, I've never heard that. Where did you read that?

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan the book which you gave me (Brereton) says it's related to Ashwamedha Yajna... he says monkey signifies horse.. Indrani signifies wife of King... and Indra is King...

@KeshavSrinivasan I forgot where I read it.. but I think no ancient commentators speak about it....

Keshav Srinivasan

01:30

@Tezz I wish I had an index of what hymns in the Samhita are referenced by the Brahmanas of the Vedas, that would clarify things.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan do each Brahmana cover up whole part of samhita...

Like does Aitreya Brahmana covers all Samhita of RigVeda...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Yes, it's not like the Samhitas are split up among different Brahmanas. The Brahmana of each Shakha is supposed to be a self-contained document covering the entire Samhita. That does not mean that every single hymn of the Samhita is covered, but there's nothing like only the first of the Samhita is covered.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan oh... so Aitreya and Kaushtiki Brahmana both cover RigVeda Samhita... but they differ also at the same time... as entire Samhita (verse) is not covered up...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Yeah, they both cover the entire Rig Veda Samhita.

@Tezz So if you compare two Brahmanas of the same Veda you will find many passages that are similar or even identical.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan 1 Shakha should have at least one Brahmana... it means there were more than 1100 Brahmanas... I think if we all had at this time .. at least entire Veda (verse to verse) would have been covered up....

Keshav Srinivasan

01:39

@Tezz Yeah, just statistically the chance that a given verse of the Samhitas is covered by at least one Brahmana is extremely high.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan yes, just statistically...

@KeshavSrinivasan which part of Samhita of Yajurveda does Satapatha Brahmana discuss in the flood event?....

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Vajasaneyi Samhita Chapter 2 verses 10-11: sacred-texts.com/hin/wyv/wyvbk02.htm

Tezz

10 Indra bestow on me that Indra-power! May wealth in full
abundance gather round us. Let blessings wait on us,
yea, real blessings.
Our Mother, Earth, hath been invited hither. May Earth,
our Mother, in return invite us. I, through my Kindlership,
am Agni. Svâhâ!
11 The Father Heaven hath been invited hither. May Heaven
the Father in return invite us.
By impulse of God Savitar I receive thee with arms of
Asvins, with the hands of Pûshan. I feed upon thee
with the mouth of Agni.

@KeshavSrinivasan how is this related with the story...?

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Here is the Shatapatha Brahmana chapter: sacred-texts.com/hin/sbr/sbe12/sbe1234.htm

@Tezz Those two verses are recited during the Ida ritual, and the Ida ritual is what Manu performed which resulted in the birth of his son/daughter Sudyumna/Ila.

Krishn Shweta

@KeshavSrinivasan evening!! @Tezz morning !!

Tezz

01:53

@KeshavSrinivasan oh yes... I found it in verse 41....

@KrishnShweta good morning....

Keshav Srinivasan

@KrishnShweta Good evening!

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan so which samhita verse is related with Hayagriva incarnation in Satapatha Brahmana...?

Krishn Shweta

@Tezz Will you remind me another name of Nirgun Brahman ?

Tezz

@KrishnShweta Nirguna Brahman is also called Nishakala, Nirakara Brahman....

@KrishnShweta what name are you searching...?

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz I've never heard of Hayagriva being discussed in the Shatapatha Brahamana. Where is he mentioned?

Tezz

02:05

@KeshavSrinivasan you have written in one answer (Suryanarayana) that this chapter is hint of Hayagriva avatar:.. sacred-texts.com/hin/sbr/sbe44/sbe44117.htm

"Not to keep you in suspense, the gods attached a horse head to Vishnu's body, which is how he assumed his Hayagriva form. This was Vishnu's plan all along, to kill the horse-headed demon Hayagrivasura who had received a boon that he could only be killed by someone who was horse-headed."

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Oh, I forgot about that.

Krishn Shweta

@Tezz you and destroyer said one name of Him. That one.

Tezz

@KrishnShweta which one?...

Nirguna means formless and attributeless....

Krishn Shweta

@Tezz I didn't remember that's why I'm asking you.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer do you renember?...

@KrishnShweta I don't remember any other names.... Natha Yogis say Nirguna Brahman by the name Para Shiva.... Shiva Purana says I think by the name Sakshat Shiva...

Krishn Shweta

02:15

@Tezz OK.... I'll look at our previous conversations, later.

Tezz

@KrishnShweta ok..

The Destroyer

02:56

@KrishnShweta Ohh. when did i say?

Keshav Srinivasan

03:15

@Tezz By the way, speaking of Mimamsakas, I don't know whether I mentioned it to you before but here is a good journal paper discussing the Purva Mimamsa school's view of the gods: gdurl.com/ZA_U

@Tezz Here is one excerpt from Shabara's commentary that discusses the nature of the gods: gdurl.com/HxAh He says that the gods' only contribution to Yagnas is through their name. And in response to a Purvapakshin who raises the objection that the gods are just words, Shabara says that the notion the gods are words does not undermine the Purva Mimamsa worldview at all, so he sees no reason to refute that theory.

@Tezz But I don't think Shabara actually believed that the gods are words, he just thought that there was no need to refute it. Because another part of the Mimamsa Sutras is devoted to arguing that the gods are not eligible to perform Yagnas, so clearly there's some recognition that the gods are intelligent beings.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan @TheDestroyer I just watched about animated Iskcon model of Universe.. Title is not so good... but it's worth watching... m.youtube.com/watch?v=wdjnetJoaHM

@KeshavSrinivasan by gods you mean devata... what do Mimamsakas think about Brahman?..

Keshav Srinivasan

03:33

@Tezz Wow, what's shown in that video has no connection to modern geography or astronomy, but it's nice to see the Puranic descriptions depicted like this. Do you know what temple this model will be built in? If it was available I would be interested in buying a model like this.

@Tezz Yes, I do mean Devata.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan what do you mean by what temple this model will be built in?...

You mean software...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz In the end of the video the guy talks about a physical model being built in the front entrance of some temple.

@Tezz I think he just made a software rendering of it first before he makes a physical model.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan oh I didn't heard the last sentence.... I don't know which temple is it in...

@KeshavSrinivasan it would be nice if they make actually floating structure using magnets in superconductors...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz OK, I found it:

tovp.org

@Tezz It's called the Vedic Planetarium, and it's in West Bengal.

@Tezz It kind of reminds me of this:

Creation Museum

The Creation Museum, located in Petersburg, Kentucky, United States, is operated by the Christian creation apologetics organization Answers in Genesis (AiG). It promotes a pseudoscientific, Young Earth creationist (YEC) explanation of the origin of the Universe based on a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation narrative in the Bible. The 75,000-square-foot (7,000 m2) museum cost US$27 million, raised through private donations, and opened on May 28, 2007. In addition to the main collection, the facility has a special effects theater, a planetarium, an Allosaurus skeleton, and an inse...

@Tezz The Creation Museum also has a planetarium.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan ok... so it is already constructed or in in process?...

@KeshavSrinivasan in my view all 14 lokas are situated in different dimensions.... and Bhumandala is entire physical universe... Bhu = Physical Mandala = Area....

Keshav Srinivasan

03:45

@Tezz Yes, that is exactly my view as well: Bhuloka is the entire physical Universe, and other Lokas are other Universes belonging to other dimensions.

@Tezz It looks like it's still under construction. Just a week ago they posted this about trying out different kinds of metal alloys: tovp.org/construction/metal-casting

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan ok... btw do Vedas talk/hint of 14 Bhuwana...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Well, the mantra recited during Pranayama, i.e. the Mahasavitri, names all the Lokas between Bhuloka and Satyaloka, but I'm not sure what scripture that mantra comes from.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan do you mean this: om bhu |
om bhuvaÏ |
om suvaÏ |
on mahaÏ |
om janaÏ |
om tapaÏ ||
om satyam |
om tathsaviturvareÉyaÎ bhargo devasya dhÁmahi |
dhiyo yo naÏ pracodayÀt |

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Yeah

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan that's from Taittariya Aranyaka... see my answer here:

1

A: What is the origin of the long version of the Gayatri mantra?

The Origin of Long Version of Gayatri Mantra is from Taitteriya Aranyaka of Yajurveda in 10.35.1 [[10-35-1]] ojo'si saho'si balamasi bhrÀjo'si devÀnÀÎ dhÀmanÀmÀ'si viÌvamasi viÌvÀyussarvamasi sarvÀyurabhibhÂroÎ gÀyatrÁmÀvÀhayÀmi savitrÁmÀvÀhayÀmi sarasvatÁmÀvÀhayÀmi chandarÍÁnÀvÀhayÀ...

@KeshavSrinivasan but I want name of lower 7 realms also... but I don't think avaliable texts of Vedas mention it...

Keshav Srinivasan

03:52

@Tezz Oh thanks, that was actually one of the questions on my list of questions I was planning to ask, I didn't know someone asked it.

@Tezz I just found an Upanishad that mentions all fourteen Lokas: advaita.it/library/aruni.htm This is the first time I'm hearing of the Aruni Upanishad though, so I'm not sure whether it's authentic or not.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan oh it's authentic... Wikipedia dates it in 1st millenium BCE..

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aruneya_Upanishad

"Prajapati also tells Aruni to abandon the seven upper realms of the universe - Bhur, Bhuvah, Svar, Mahas, Jana, Tapas, Satya, and the seven lower realms of “Atala, Patala, Vitala, Sutala, Rasatala, Mahatala, Talatala, and egg of creation of the world." Give up all material things of life.[2]"

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Well, I wouldn't trust that, until I can find a mention of the Upanishad in the commentaries of Acharyas and the like.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan I also 1st time heard the name of the Upanishad...

But Wikipedia dates looking at language structures and words used... so it is likely to be right... at least it can't be modern than Wikipedia dates...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Well, Western Indologists make a lot of assumptions in their dating methods, so I generally take them with a grain of salt.

@Tezz "what do Mimamsakas think about Brahman?" Well, they have ambivalent attitudes towards Brahman. They certainly don't believe that Brahman had anything to do with the creation of the Universe, because they think the Universe is eternal and was never created.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan we also take vegetables with a grain of salt... haha ....

@KeshavSrinivasan do you know any text which is modern than the dating of Wikipedia...?

Keshav Srinivasan

04:07

@Tezz Some Mimamsakas did believe in Brahman and Moksha though. Some believed in Moksha, but believed that Brahman is either non-existent or that the Upanishads do not reveal anything about Brahman; see my question here for Ramanujacharya's argument against the Mimamsakas on this point:

4

Q: What is Ramanujacharya's argument that the Upanishads must be true if they grant Moksha?

As I discuss in this question, by far the most popular school of Hindu philosophy is the Vedanta school, which bases its tenets on the doctrines laid out in the Brahma Sutras, a work by the sage Vyasa which summarizes and systematizes the philosophical teachings of the Upanishads. (You can read t...

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan I have seen your question...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz By the way, if you look through the Brahma Sutras you'll find many places where Jaimini is referenced supporting the Upanishads, Brahman, and Moksha. That lends more evidence to my theory that Jaimini was not writing his true opinions in the Purva Mimamsa Sutras.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan Jaimini is also living now...... isn't it?

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Yeah, I think he's a Chiranjeevi.

SwiftPushkar

04:58

@Tezz@KeshavSrinivasan - Good morning 💐

@KeshavSrinivasan - The starting text is - (Rishi medha tithi kanva devata vishnu chaand gayatri)

Main Mantra - Om Atordeva avantuno yato vishnu-vicharkrme । prithivhah saptaDhamamami ।।. idam vishnu vichakrame tredhani dadhe padam । samuvyamasyam pam sure।।

Trinipadaam vichakrame vishnu gorpaha aadabhyaha। aato dharmani dharayan।।

etc. I have translated it from book in devanagari , text is big , so just few verses are given. And the book says , it should be recited after finishing abhisheka.

Tezz

@SwiftPushkar good morning....

SwiftPushkar

@Tezz - Yes :)

Tezz

@SwiftPushkar - S :)

Keshav Srinivasan

05:16

@SwiftPushkar OK, it comes from Rig Veda Book 1 Hymn 22: sacred-texts.com/hin/rvsan/rv01022.htm

@SwiftPushkar Here's the English translation: sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/rv01022.htm

SwiftPushkar

@KeshavSrinivasan - Yes , thanks :)

Krishn Shweta

07:04

@Tezz and @TheDestroyer Sorry for that. here is our conversation. Nirguna Brahman has no name, gender or any qualities. It is pure SATCHIDANANDA. It/She/He is alone Truth, INFINITE and bliss and the Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva as Suguna Brahman is seeing Nirguna Brahman through lens of Maya

Tezz

@KrishnShweta so what name you were searching....?

Krishn Shweta

So I just remembered about Nirgun Brahman and I forgot about Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva as Suguna Brahman.

The Destroyer

@KrishnShweta Saguna Brahman is seeing Nirguna Brahman through lens of Maya according to Advaita.

Saguna Brahman is called by a name "ISVARA", the ruler. So, Isvara takes avatar, when needed.

Tezz

@KrishnShweta so you kept on searching until you reached that message...

The Destroyer

@KrishnShweta see this answer to understand avatars according to Advaita.

5

A: How does Adishankaracharya Advaita explain concept of Avatar?

Adi Sankara taught that God incarnated. In his Introduction to his commentary on the Gita, Sankara says (Bhagavad Gita with the commentary of Sankaracarya, Swami Gambhirananda translator, pp 3-5): When, after a long time, dharma became overpowered by adharma (vice), and adharma increased owin...

@Tezz I think she used search option.

Krishn Shweta

07:10

I remembered only xxxx Brahman. And that xxxx is Suguna Brahman which I was searching(xxxx) @TheDestroyer @Tezz Sorry. But now its clear.

@TheDestroyer I used search button but I didn't get. Then I used Transcript there we have previous day option. That I used. and @Tezz It took 10-15 min

Tezz

@KrishnShweta Saguna Brahman doesn't necessarily have form... It can only have attribute.... ie. When attributeless Nirguna Brahman becomes pervasive, auspicious, etc.. quality then it can be called Vishnu, Shiva etc.. also.. (without form only attributes)...

The Destroyer

@KrishnShweta Yeah. Nirguna and Nirakara are two different words.

Krishn Shweta

@TheDestroyer I'll take a look at that link

@Tezz Okay...

The Destroyer

@KrishnShweta Nirguna means without qualities and Nirakara means without form. Someone can have qualities and be without form at same time.

Krishn Shweta

Okay.....

The Destroyer

07:16

@Tezz Good answer on Vyuptakesha form of Shiva.

@Tezz What is Kalagni Rudra form of Shiva?

Tezz

@TheDestroyer Thank you... do you know other instances where Lord Shiva becomes Vyuptakesha?...

@TheDestroyer kalagni Rudra is that form which destroys the universe.....

The Destroyer

@Tezz I read for the first time this story. I think Shiva Purana didn't mention this. I will check Shiva and Skanda Purana.

@Tezz Why that form teaches Sanatkumara as mentioned in Upanishads.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer any form can teach... it's just like Kaali maata is dangerous and terrifying... but she is mother and very kind also...

The Destroyer

@Tezz Ok. Is there any story happened before kalagni rudra upanishad?

Tezz

@TheDestroyer as Mahabharat specifically mentions the name Purandara... it is story of this Manvantara... so other Puranas might not mention this story...

@TheDestroyer which stories?...

The Destroyer

07:23

@Tezz Yes. Exactly. Tripura Samhara happened in this Manvantara. How did Vishnu deceive the three demons of Tripura.

according to Mahabharatha

@Tezz I want to know what happened before kalagni rudra Uoanishad? Is there any story of Rudra taking that form?

Tezz

@TheDestroyer Tripura Samhara happens in every Manvanatara by Lord Shiva because it is described in Vedas... YajurVeda describes it ..

@TheDestroyer Mahabharat mentions in shortcut... and I think there is no story of Vishnu deluding demons...

The Destroyer

@Tezz ok. I want to know story behind "Viswesvaraya" in the mantra Namaste Astu Bhagavan Visveswaraya.." other than legend of varanasi.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer here is story from Mahabharat:

sacred-texts.com/hin/m08/m08034.htm

The Destroyer

@Tezz Why some Upanishads are like Puranas, extolling specific deity?

Tezz

@TheDestroyer I too don't understand that... why there are Shaiva and Vaishnava Upanishad...

@TheDestroyer regarding Puranas at least Vaishnava classify as Satwik Tamasik... but they can't do on Upanishads... as Upanishad are Vedas....

The Destroyer

07:30

@Tezz Exactly. Are there any chances that they are composed later or this is to delude us?

@Tezz Haha. That is clear interpolation which needs no further discussion at all.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer I'm not sure whether Kalagni Rudra Upanishad us considered auhentic or not... Wikipedia also doesn't date it... en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalagni_Rudra_Upanishad

@TheDestroyer rather than composed to delude us... there is a good chance that Upanishads which extolls deity in Puranic way were composed latter....

The Destroyer

@Tezz But at the same time i don't think Kalagni Rudra Upanishad is not interpolation and also other Upanishads. Shiva nama is used by many saints and revered so much for many centuries. Almost all ancient Kings and Philosophers had Shiva Namam.

@Tezz May be they changed the tone of Language.

@Tezz At first i'm confused to believe it or not but finally believed it.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer believed in what?...

The Destroyer

Kalagni Rudra Upanishad.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer oh I'm not sure... whether to believe in Kalagni Rudra Upanishad or not... but I found that many Shaiva Upanishads are very ancient...

Like see Atharvasiras it is older than 500 BCE...... en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atharvashiras_Upanishad

Also quoted in Gautama Dharma Sutra, Baudhayana Dharma, ....

Also Kaivalya Upanishad dated around 500 BCE...

The Destroyer

07:38

@Tezz what made Ancient Kings to follow Shaivism? Most of the Ancient Kings of South are Shaivite kings and they wore Shiva Namam.

Tezz

Which was also quoted by Shankara in Vishnu sahasranaam Bhasya... en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaivalya_Upanishad

@TheDestroyer I don't know about history.....

The Destroyer

@Tezz Why do you believe Wiki. They dating techniques are very bad.

@Tezz Shiva is better in depiction than Rudra.

haha

Tezz

@TheDestroyer at least from Wiki we can compare oldness of scripture .....

The Destroyer

@Tezz Ok. Bye. will talk to you later.

Tezz

Like wiki dates Mahabharat from 300 BC to 300 AD... and if it dates Upanishad older than 300 BC.. then we can be sure it's older than Mahabharat... and we know Mahabharat date is older than 3102 BC which makes that Upanishad older than 3100 BCE....

@TheDestroyer ok Bye....

Keshav Srinivasan

08:04

@Tezz The thing is that Western Indologists can't be trusted to even get the order right.

Keshav Srinivasan

08:16

@Tezz By the way, since you're interested in astrology, you may be interested in this:

Ursa Major Moving Group

The Ursa Major Moving Group, also known as Collinder 285 or Ursa Major association, is a nearby stellar moving group – a set of stars with common velocities in space and thought to have a common origin in space and time. In the case of the Ursa Major group, all the stars formed about 300 million years ago. Its core is located roughly 80 light years away. It is rich in bright stars including most of the stars of the Big Dipper. == Discovery and constituents == All stars in the Ursa Major Moving Group are moving in roughly the same direction and at roughly the same speed, containing roughly the same...

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan a little order we can find by ourselves... by comparing language... like when we look language of BrihadAranyaka and Chhandogy and compare it with Mandukya, Mundaka Upanishad... we find language of BrihadAranyaka and Chhandogya more ancient...

@KeshavSrinivasan it was created by Vishwamitra during Trisankhu event...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz All the stars in the Saptarishi Mandalam belong to the Ursa Major Moving Group other than Marichi and Kratu. I wonder whether Hindu scripture ever singles out Marichi and Kratu in some way.

Tezz

This evidence suggests to astronomers that the stars in the group share a common origin.

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz This is Trishanku Swargam:

Crux

Crux /ˈkrʌks/ is a constellation located in the southern sky in a bright portion of the Milky Way. It is among the most easily distinguished constellations, as none of its four main stars has an apparent visual magnitude greater than +2.8, even though it is the smallest of all 88 modern constellations. Its name is Latin for cross, and it is dominated by a cross-shaped or kite-like asterism that is commonly known as the Southern Cross. Predominating the asterism is the most southerly first-magnitude star and brightest star in the constellation, the blue-white Alpha Crucis or Acrux, followed by four...

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan and Mimamsaka believe the whole Trisankhu episode is to glorify this Star and Yajna done by Vishwamitra....

Keshav Srinivasan

08:25

@Tezz Haha, they wouldn't even think it's intended to glorify the star, only the Yagna.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan haha...

@KeshavSrinivasan actually we can intrepret Vishnus 10 incarnation in order of Evolution theory... through Mimamsa principle... isn't it?...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz No, the Purva Mimamsa school did not believe that Hindu scripture could tell us anything about the history of the world.

@Tezz Mimamsakas believed that Hindu scripture is incapable of telling us about Siddharthas, things which already exist. Instead Hindu scripture can only tell us about Apurva, the unseen things that can be produced through actions.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan but if theory shows evidence... we can generate argument to support that... for eg. Mimamsa intrepret Indra and Ahalya as Indra =Light, Ahalya = Darkness...... similarly we can intrepret Matsya=Fish, Kurma= tortorise, Varaha = boar etc... they are just literal meanings....

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz But Kumarila Bhatta is not saying that the Indra and Ahalya reference in the Vedas is telling us something new about light and darkness. Instead he thinks the Vedas is just reiterating something that is obvious about light and darkness, in the context of a passage that would ultimately be intended to glorify some action.

@Tezz Whereas if the avataras referred to stages of evolution, that would te us something new about the world that already exists, and that would be impossible according to Mimamsakas.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan but at least they use meanings of words to intrepret... In Prajapati and Usha episode also they explain in the same way...

@KeshavSrinivasan oh... first I want to ask you what do Mimamsak believe about Avatars?...

Keshav Srinivasan

08:37

@Tezz Even in the Prajapati and Usha thing is an example of referring to a fact about the sun and dawn that is obvious, so the Vedas would not be conveying new information. Whereas the theory of evolution is not obviously true, so the Vedas would be giving new information about existing things.

@Tezz Well, in that excerpt I gave you Kumarila Bhatta discussed Draupadis being an avatara of Lakshmi. But I don't think the Purva Mimamsaka had a clear doctrine on avataras, because they were skeptical of the gods themselves.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan evolution can also be obvious fact in all creation... in such case scriptures can speak it... and furthermore Avatars are not in Vedas... They are only in Puranas and Itihasas...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Well, Mimamsakas treated Vedas, Puranas, and Itihasas in the same manner.

@Tezz Well, just by looking at an animal you cannot tell whether its ancestors were always the same species as it or were of a different species. So in that sense the theory of evolution is not obvious.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan we do not know whether evolution theory is true or not... but it can be true as true Vedas are... ie eternal... ie. In every creation it can start in the way stated by evolution theory.... in such case evolution also becomes Veda.. and it can get reflected in scriptures...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Well, from the Mimamsaka point of view, even if evolution is true, it is not obvious, so the Vedas are powerless to reveal the truth of evolution. Even if the Vedas just explicitly said "evolution is true", Mimasakas would call that Arthavada.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan my main curiosity is that.. if Shabara and Kumarila were in present age... They knew Darwin theory.... and also knew many evidences support it... now would they generate that Vishnus 10 incarnation reflects Evolution theory or not...?

Keshav Srinivasan

08:48

@Tezz And also Mimamsakas believed that the world was never created.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan world was never created means?... eg. Advaita also believes it... but Advaita way is different...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz No, because they didn't even think that the knowledge known in their day could ever be captured by the Vedas. Like if they were aware of the fact that to make bronze you need to mix 88% copper and 12% tin, they would think that it is impossible for a passage in the Vedas or any scripture to reveal that fact.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan so do they believe Vedas and scriptures are powerless to reveal any Knowledge...?

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz The Purva Mimamsa school believe that the world has always existed, it was never created.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan do they believe in Parinama Vaada...

Keshav Srinivasan

08:54

@Tezz No, they didn't. They didn't think the Universe has a creator, or that there was something that transformed into the Universe. They thought the Universe was just always there.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan so what do they think.. what causes shooting stars to fall.. planets to move... they are unconscious...

We can also see minor transformation in earth without conscious cause...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz They thought that everything that happens in the world is a reward or punishment for some action that someone did.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan and ultimate goal is to be Indra isn't it?...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Well, not destiny, but yeah that's the ultimate goal in life according to them.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan that Indra lives in heaven? (Acc. To them)..

Keshav Srinivasan

09:00

@Tezz Yes, they believed becoming Indra is the same as attaining sovereignty over Swarga. But they were kind of vague on what Swarga is.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan haha... so they can say... Swarga is Kingship in earth... or getting pleasure in earth also is Swarga?...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz No, they were clear that Swarga is something to be achieved after deach, but beyond that they were very vague about it.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan what do they think about other gods like Varuna, Vayu, Agni.. do they think these can also be achieved like Indra?...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz They thought that the Vedas contain absolutely no information about Swarga, because everything that the Vedas say about Swarga is just Arthavada.

@Tezz Mimamsakas were crazy.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan because they believed Vedas are powerless to reveal about Swarga... isn't it?

Keshav Srinivasan

09:04

@Tezz Yeah

@Tezz They thought the Vedas can only tell you how to go to Swarga, not the nature of Swarga.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan so one can become Vayu, Agni, varuna etc... by doing Yajnya... or one can become only Indra?...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz I think the Vedas do describe ways to become the next Agni, Vayu, etc. I think either the Panchagni Vidya or the Madhu Vidya can be used to become the next Vayu.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan do Mimamsak gave more imp. To gods like Vishnu, Rudra or not?...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz By the way, I'm reminded of Galileo's famous quote "The Bible discusses how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go."

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan I think he was talking about motion of heaven...

Keshav Srinivasan

09:10

@Tezz Yeah, that was his defense when people accused him of going against the Bible with his heliocentric theory.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan as Mimamsa believe Vedas can't give knowledge... what do they think of Jnana kanda?...

@KeshavSrinivasan you woke up or you haven't slept yet...?

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz That's where my question here comes in:

2

Q: Does anyone agree with the Mimamsa interpretation of this Upanishad verse?

As I discuss in this question, by far the most popular school of Hindu philosophy is the Vedanta school, which bases its tenets on the doctrines laid out in the Brahma Sutras, a work by the sage Vyasa that summarizes and systematizes the philosophical teachings of the Upanishads. (You can read th...

philosophy vedanta upanishads atma brihadaranyaka-upanishad

@Tezz I haven't slept yet, I should sleep soon.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan oh ok.. sleep soon as per your plan...

Tezz

12:40

@KeshavSrinivasan I found the temple progress of that Iskcon model here.. m.youtube.com/watch?v=0tcq_a-KXYc if you find talks boring just watch from 17:30

SwiftPushkar

15:25

@Tezz - hello , how r u , whats up ?:)

Keshav Srinivasan

15:46

@Tezz Thanks

Tezz

@SwiftPushkar all fine... how are you...?

SwiftPushkar

@Tezz - me too :) , just finished food

@KeshavSrinivasan@KrishnShweta - hello to you both :)

Tezz

@SwiftPushkar so yoi just finished food... now there will be famine in your area... haha

Krishn Shweta

@SwiftPushkar Hi....

I want to share 1 thing... Shall I?????

SwiftPushkar

@Tezz - haha , like that :) i am "Mitaahari" at night

@KrishnShweta - ohh yes , you certainly can :)

Krishn Shweta

15:59

@SwiftPushkar Okay...

@Tezz Do you also want to look at that link?

SwiftPushkar

@Tezz@KrishnShweta - the links in one of my recent answers were not active , i felt so disappointed today , in Dattatrya answer

dont know how i missed that ...

Krishn Shweta

@SwiftPushkar From yesterday I didn't looked at any posts.... but tomorrow I will.

SwiftPushkar

@KrishnShweta - you also try to give answers here , you can search in google for ref. ohh ok

Krishn Shweta

@All take a look at this.... meta.electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/5954/…

SwiftPushkar

@KrishnShweta - thats inspiring :) unique concept of encouraging and promoting site and membershp :) like it

Krishn Shweta

16:06

@SwiftPushkar Yeah.... All of them 72 users are soooo happy.

SwiftPushkar

@KrishnShweta- i think we can send "prasadam" to new members , what do u think :)

Krishn Shweta

@SwiftPushkar LOL :D

SwiftPushkar

@KrishnShweta - just joking .... LOL

Krishn Shweta

@SwiftPushkar Look at one comment there for Olin.

SwiftPushkar

@KrishnShweta - havent found Olin

Krishn Shweta

16:09

@SwiftPushkar Olin is old man that's why he said.

– Russell McMahon @SwiftPushkar Look at this guys comment. He involved Olin's name. (comment is at last)

SwiftPushkar

@KrishnShweta - ya , we also can do such activity after promoting of site :) we also can get sponsors , for various activities

Keshav Srinivasan

@SwiftPushkar Hi

Krishn Shweta

@SwiftPushkar BTW, sending Prasadam........ LOL..

SwiftPushkar

@KeshavSrinivasan - yes :)

@KrishnShweta@KeshavSrinivasan - how far we are from graduating ?

i think some one asked this in meta

Krishn Shweta

@SwiftPushkar I guess it needs 80+% of answers . presently it is 72% I think.

SwiftPushkar

16:19

@KrishnShweta - ok , roughly correct , :)

Tezz

@KrishnShweta which link...?

Krishn Shweta

@Tezz Scroll up!! You will find one link of Meta electronics SE.

Tezz

@KrishnShweta oh... I saw it... what's there?...

Krishn Shweta

@Tezz What?

Tezz

@KrishnShweta oh it means.. it graduated from Beta level....?

Krishn Shweta

16:23

@Tezz I guess on 2011.

Tezz

@KrishnShweta oh ok... I don't know how does site graduates...

Krishn Shweta

@Tezz I'm member of Electronics Stack Exchange from 3 months only. But using that regularly from 2 months.

SwiftPushkar

@KeshavSrinivasan@Tezz@KrishnShweta - one thing i have noticed over here about questions is that , most people generally ask questions about "Mahabharata" , wht you people think ?

Tezz

@KrishnShweta oh so... have you answered questions there?... I think you haven't answered any in Hinduism SE...

@SwiftPushkar because Mahabharata is very famous abd also Largest scripture ..

SwiftPushkar

@Tezz - yes :) i have shown your answer about varanasi to my dad , n he likes your explanation abt reaching to anjaneya chakra. We generally call it KASHI

Tezz

16:30

@SwiftPushkar oh ok.. Thank You....!

Krishn Shweta

@Tezz Yes. here I didn't answered any. But there I have answered 2 from which 1 answer got downvotes and the other was very simple so no ups and downs.

SwiftPushkar

@Tezz@KrishnShweta - yes techinical sites are even very strict abt questions . they want us to make some reasearch before asking.

Tezz

@KrishnShweta ok.. go on answering...

Krishn Shweta

@Tezz And answering or questioning there is so difficult there. Because users are highly experienced. Maybe 10+ years.

@Tezz And most of the questions are very new for me.

Tezz

@KrishnShweta so there are childrens only... just 10 yrs. Old...

Why are you saying 10 yrs childrens as highly experienced...

Krishn Shweta

16:33

@Tezz If we ask for any design suggestions then they comment as "We are not here for your free service"

@Tezz I mean experience of 10+ years in Engineering.

SwiftPushkar

@KrishnShweta - yes generally student ask questions abt homework etc so ..

Tezz

@KrishnShweta if they say so by asking any questions... then ask many questions...

Krishn Shweta

@Tezz If we do so, they will block for asking questions.

Tezz

@KrishnShweta then ask through another ID...

Krishn Shweta

@Tezz Instead we should ask correct question.

Tezz

16:38

@KrishnShweta yes we should ask correct question... I'm just joking...

SwiftPushkar

@Tezz - stack exchange site uses User Device Ip for identification , so i think we cant ask as another user from same device .IMO

Tezz

@SwiftPushkar then ask through another device....

Krishn Shweta

@SwiftPushkar No., nothing like that.

Tezz

Go on asking by going through computers of cybers... haha...

SwiftPushkar

@Tezz -LOL - ya thats the fair option :)

Keshav Srinivasan

16:40

@Tezz "as Mimamsa believe Vedas can't give knowledge... what do they think of Jnana kanda?" Now that I'm not at the edge of sleep, I can give you a full answer to this. Mimamsakas have ambivalent views towards the Jnana Kanda. First of all, they often dismiss Upanishads as meaningless stories that are recited during the Pariplava. See my question here for more information on the Pariplava:

3

Q: What were the Vedic stories recited during the Ashwamedha Yagna?

Many Vedic Yagnas (fire-rituals) would last for months or even years, so it was customary to take breaks at regular intervals, and during those breaks a story would often be recited. In fact, it was during a 12-year Sarpa Yagna (ritual to kill snakes) that Arjuna's great-grandson Janamejaya hear...

mythology vedas yajur-veda yagna shatapatha-brahmana

Tezz

@SwiftPushkar @KrishnShweta haha... what would happen if one keeps on asking the same question which is closed... haha... it would be funny....

SwiftPushkar

@KeshavSrinivasan@Tezz@KrishnShweta - also i want to know that , can one get +100 points by editing 100 posts . i think i read that somewhere .

Krishn Shweta

@Tezz LOL.

Tezz

@SwiftPushkar if one has low reputation one can get +2 on each edit approved...

Keshav Srinivasan

@SwiftPushkar You get 2 points per edit for the first 500 edits, so 1000 reputation total.

Tezz

16:43

@KeshavSrinivasan haha... meaningless edits....

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Well, your edits have to be approved.

SwiftPushkar

@Tezz@KeshavSrinivasan - ok , i was just curious

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan not for first 500 edit... if one earned badge approve edit... then he doesn't get reputation on editing...

SwiftPushkar

@KeshavSrinivasan@Tezz - but some one can also misuse this and will make unnessary changes in original posts etc

Tezz

For eg. I have just edited around 30 posts...

I don't get any reputation... @KeshavSrinivasan

Keshav Srinivasan

16:45

@Tezz Anyway, like I was saying, so often Mimamsaka dismiss the Upanishads as meaningless stories recited during Pariplava. Or sometimes they say that the information that the Upanishads give about Brahman is just false information but if you meditate on it you'll still get Moksha.

SwiftPushkar

@Tezz - i think that applies after 100 edits

Tezz

@SwiftPushkar his edits need to be approved...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz You're a high reputation user, this only applies to users who have to get their edits approved. They get 2 points per edit approval.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan yes that was my point... one who haven't earned approve edit tag only can get reputations through editing....

SwiftPushkar

@Tezz@KeshavSrinivasan - i am talking abt editing the posts after asked or answered ,like we do correction , that sort of edit.

Keshav Srinivasan

16:47

@Tezz Yeah, that's true.

Tezz

Editing one's post doesn't give reputation @SwiftPushkar

SwiftPushkar

@Tezz- ohh got it

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan then what is Moksha as per Mimamsakas?....

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Some Mimamsakas believe that Brahman exists and Moksha involves union with Brahman, but that the Upanishads are powerless to tell anything about Brahman.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan union meaning becoming one?... like Kaivalya ?

Keshav Srinivasan

16:53

@Tezz I'm not sure what theistic Mimsakas like Kumarila Bhatta believed about the nature of Moksha, whether they thought it involved going to some Loka of Brahman or whether it was a Kaivalya-like state.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan as per Mimamsa ultimate goal is Indra... so there can be multiple Indras at same time... because this can be because same sacrifice can be performed by many persons...

So how can there be many Indras at same time??..

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz Well, I'm not sure how the hundred Ashwamedha Yagnas thing works, whether you become Indra while you're alive or after you die. If it's while you're alive then you would be replacing the current Indra right now. If it's after you die then you may have to wait until the next Manvantara until you get your turn to become the next Indra.

@Tezz By the way, I didn't tell you the main way in which Mimamsakas deal with the Jnana Kanda of the Vedas, which is that they think that the information contained about the Atma is something that is useful for Yagnas.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan but in a single Manvantara there are 71 Chaturyugas... literally there are 100s of Ashwamedha performed... so how long each have to wait... one will only get after billions of years... its like no meaning of Ashwamedha and Vajapeya...

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