Vedanta and Philosophy

Tezz

12:45 AM

@KeshavSrinivasan Oh ok...

Keshav Srinivasan

2:45 AM

@Tezz @Pandya I just posted a question related to Gaudapada's Mandukya Karika:

0

Q: What school of philosophy believes in an infinite number of Tattvas?

The most prominent thinker associated with the Advaita Vedanta school is Adi Shankaracharaya, but he wasn't the founder of Advaita; Adi Shankaracharaya's guru Govinda and Govinda's guru Gaudapada were also Advaitins. As I discuss in this question, Gaudapada is famous for his Karika or commentary...

@TheDestroyer @Rickross @RakeshJoshi @Rohit You guys may also be interested, as it's related to Shaivism.

Tezz

@KeshavSrinivasan Yeah... I just saw it...

Keshav Srinivasan

@Tezz By the way, I don't know how many Tattvas are recognized by the Pancharatra Agamas and the Sri Vaishnava sect. I may post a question on that. Maybe we're the ones who believe in infinitely many Tattvas, haha

@Tezz By the way, did you know that Adi Shankaracharya rejects Mahat and the other evolutes of Prakriti in his Brahma Sutra Bhashya?

@Tezz Ramanujacharya accepts them in the Sri Bhashya though.

@Tezz See this section of Adi Shankaracharya's Brahma Sutra Bhashya: sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe34/sbe34141.htm Adi Shankaracharya argues that Mahat is neither seen by the senses nor mentioned in the Vedas, so we shouldn't accet its existence.

Sree Charan

3:06 AM

Good morning! @Tezz

And you too @KeshavSrinivasan

Keshav Srinivasan

3:36 AM

@SreeCharan Good morning for you, good night for me :-)

Sree Charan

@KeshavSrinivasan I mistook PM as AM :D

Tezz

4:07 AM

@KeshavSrinivasan haha lol... 'maybe we are the one'...

@KeshavSrinivasan Yes, I knew that....

@SreeCharan Good Morning!!....

@SreeCharan So, you mistook yourself as Prime Minister... haha... 😀😀

Sree Charan

@Tezz HaHa..

@Tezz you can reply to specific message if you want.

There is an option in mobile chat.

Tezz

@SreeCharan No, there is not... I use simple browser for faster access...

Sree Charan

Which browser do you use?

@Tezz

Tezz

@SreeCharan UC browser

Sree Charan

@Tezz In the work Tirucchhanda viruttam written by Tirumazhishai alwar, there are numbers 3,5 and 6.

There are many possible interpretations for those numbers. I thought they might be helpful for your post.

Tezz

4:19 AM

@SreeCharan No. 3 5 6 about which thing... ?

Sree Charan

Especially number 6.

@Tezz About your post on Tirumular, tirumantiram .

Tezz

@SreeCharan what are the intrepretations of that ...?

@SreeCharan Keshava answered that question....

Sree Charan

@Tezz I have seen that

@Tezz In the first verse of Tirumantiram, there is a word, six he filled

Tezz

@SreeCharan is there English translation of that viruttam... or can you post it here... ?..

Sree Charan

What do you think that six is?

@Tezz It is there.

Below is the tamil verse in original. in ITRANS

Arum Arum ArumAi Or aindum aindum aindumAi Eru Seer iraNDum moonrum Ezhum Arum eTTumAi |
vEru vEru jnAnamAhi meyyinODu poyyumAi ooroDOSai Aya aindum Aya Aya mAyanE || Two ||

THe word Arum is the tamil word for six @Tezz

This is the interpretation

> six karmAs – adyayanam – chanting vEdAs ,
adyApanam – teaching vEdAs ,
yajanam – doing yAga himself,
yAjanam - performing yAga for others,
dAnam – giving alms,
pratigraham – receiving alms. These are the exclusive karmas for Brahmins only

Tezz

4:23 AM

@SreeCharan in six he filled... B. Natarajan thinks.. it's 6 philosophies... , 6 chakras etc...

Sree Charan

> Six seasons -
vasantam – spring,
greeSmam – hot,
varSA – raining,
sarat – autumn,
hEmantam - winter,
SiSiram – cold

> Six yajnAs – AgnEyam , agneeSOmiyam, upAmSuyAjam, aindram, two aindragnam

Tezz

@SreeCharan Oh ok... Nice... !... Season is also a good intrepretation....

Sree Charan

@Tezz @KeshavSrinivasan Are there six darshanas at the time of Tirumular?

If we assume that the interpretation given by Natarajan is right, then were there 6 darshanas at the time of Tirumular?

One of them is Yoga. Is this the same as propagated by Patanjali? @Tezz @TheDestroyer @Keshav @Pandya @SwiftPushkar

Tezz

@SreeCharan why not... all 6 Darshans are very ancient...

@SreeCharan yeah... Yoga Sutras of Patanjali...

Sree Charan

@Tezz Is the Yoga school of thought formed by Patanjali? If yes, what was his time period? Is it known?

Tezz

4:35 AM

@SreeCharan as per western datings Titumantiram is of about 5th-6th century whereas all darshan sutras are dated in BCE...

@SreeCharan in Tirumantiram, Tirumular also writes about Patanjali::...

67: Eight Masters
Seekest thou the Masters who Nandi's grace received
First the Nandis Four, Sivayoga the Holy next;
Patanjali, then, who in Sabha's holy precincts worshipt,
Vyaghra and I complete the number Eight.

Sree Charan

@Tezz Exactly my point.

Why did Patanjali form a separate school of philosophy if his goal is to teach Saivism in one of the 8 directions.

Hey @Anuvaramban How is everything?

anuvaramban

@SreeCharan Things are good, Good Morning!

@SreeCharan How are you?

Sree Charan

@anuvaramban Fine. Thank you.

Tezz

@SreeCharan what is Vyasas goal?... if his goal is to teach devotion of Vishnu to people then why did he write Shiva Purana... if his goal is to teach devotion of Shiva... why did he write Vishnu Purana.... similar case... 😀😀

Sree Charan

@Tezz I don't think so. There might be a reason.

@Tezz Do you know Patanjali is seen beside Nataraja along with Vyaghrapada.

Tezz

4:43 AM

@SreeCharan Yeah... there might be reason ... 😀😀

@SreeCharan Oh... I didn't know about that...

Sree Charan

5

Q: What is the source of the legend of Vyāghrapāda?

Which Hindu scripture narrates the story of Vyāghrapāda (the name literally means tiger-footed)? From Wikipedia: Vyaghrapada was a rishi and he was entrusted with the task of picking up fresh flowers, untouched even by the honeybees, for offering to Shiva in his aspect as Nataraja in the tem...

mythology shiva puranas

The person beside Vyaghrapada is Patanjali.

Some also believe that Patanjali is an incarnation of Adi shesha. Hence he is shown as Half snaked.

anuvaramban

@TheDestroyer Here's the translation:
விநாயகர் காப்பு
(Vinayaka Kavacham - this is the title)

ஐந்து கரத்தனை யானை முகத்தனை
(One with five limbs and face of an elephant)
இந்தின் இளம்பிறை போலும் எயிற்றனை
(He whose tusks resemble the growing crescent moon)
நந்தி மகன்தனை ஞானக் கொழுந்தினைப்
(Nandi's son you are, The budding sprout of Wisdom you are)
புந்தியில் வைத்தடி போற்றுகின் றேனே.
(As i keep him in my mind, I worship his feet continuously)

Tezz

@SreeCharan Oh ok....

anuvaramban

@Tezz Are you familiar with John Woodroffe's Initiation?

Tezz

@SreeCharan Yes, I had also heard Patanjali is Seshavatar...

@anuvaramban No, I'm not familiar... how is his translation?..

anuvaramban

4:50 AM

@Tezz I wanted to know if his translations are authorised, which only occurs if the guru gives permission to him to do so. Rickross had said in the Agama Room that Woodroffe got initiated by a well known bengali tantric but no more info was available beyond that at this point

Tezz

@anuvaramban I'm not sure whether he is initiated or not...

The Destroyer

@anuvaramban Thanks!

anuvaramban

@Tezz oh, that's interesting.

@TheDestroyer you're welcome :)

Tezz

@anuvaramban Wikipedia also doesn't contain information whether he is initiated or not...

anuvaramban

@TheDestroyer may i ask where you came across this? It is poetically very well arranged.

The Destroyer

5:01 AM

@SreeCharan Patanjali is believed to be Adi Shesha. Sri Hari and Sesha revived Meditative portion of vedas long ago. Actually, Karma portion, Meditative portion and Jnana portion should be followed (or complete Vedas to be precise) without following only philosophy or portion.

anuvaramban

@Tezz That's the thing, i too had checked Wiki and no mention there. Also, from wiki page it seems like he wrote on multiple tantric lineages but i'm not sure, can you confirm if this is a correct deduction?

The Destroyer

@anuvaramban Tirumantiram by Tirumlar.

anuvaramban

@TheDestroyer Wow, I'm amazed you are reading with such a deep source. No wonder it is poetically pleasing. Are you practising Yoga based on its principles?

The Destroyer

@SreeCharan Shaiva Siddhanta has Yoga. I think words "Shaivism" and "Vaishnavism" or "Shaktism" are man made.

Sree Charan

@TheDestroyer They are faiths. Faith is different from philosophy.

Tezz

5:05 AM

@anuvaramban I do not know this time... maybe I can tell you if I confirm it...

The Destroyer

@anuvaramban Actually, i'm not reading it. @SreeCharan asked original verse in this question.

4

Q: Which scriptures describe Vināyaka as son of Nandi?

Shaiva Siddhanta is based on the Shaiva Agamas and the poems of the 63 Nāyanārs . One of those 63 Nāyanārs is Saint Tirumūlar and also one of the 18 Siddhars and also a Yogi himself. His work Tirumantiram is the tenth of the twelve volumes of the Tirumurai, the key texts of Shaiva Siddhanta. He i...

ganesha shaivism shaiva-siddhanta

anuvaramban

@Tezz cool, that sounds good.

The Destroyer

and i searched it on Shaivam.org website as site is all about Shaivism.

shaivam.org/thirumurai/tenth-thirumurai/298/…

anuvaramban

@TheDestroyer So there is a system of Yoga & rejuvenation developed by Asana Andiappan which follows the ThiruMandiram very closely

Rohit

@KeshavSrinivasan Do you think universe is infinite?

Infinite tattvas implies universe is infinite. Otherwise how something infinite can be contained in finite? Do you think universe is infinite? It can't. So how tattvas can be infinite? @KeshavSrinivasan

The Destroyer

5:14 AM

@Tezz I checked all Puranas, but didn't find Ganesha and Nandi Story.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer maybe it is just literally told... not actually...

The Destroyer

@anuvaramban Nandi means happy in Sanskrit. Can we interpret it as "son who is joyous" or What's the meaning of Nandi in Tamil?

anuvaramban

@TheDestroyer AFAIK, Nandi is the bull faced Gana of Shiva who plays Mridangam.

The Destroyer

@Tezz Even i think so. But Nandi is again Siva. So, even factually it would be correct.

Tezz

@anuvaramban I think Nandi doesn't have face of bull... he has same form as that of Shiva... Sarupyam...

The Destroyer

5:18 AM

@anuvaramban Yeah. Since it is poetic, i think it is not Nandi or Vrishabha.

@Tezz I think few puranas say Nandi is vrishabha, though Shiva Purana says Nandi looks similar to Shiva. Nandi and Mahakala are two gatekeepers of Kailasa.

anuvaramban

@Tezz Nandi usually refers to the bull kept in front of ShivaLingam in Temples and when Anthropomorphised he is the Gana who is also referred to as NandiKesava, he is the patron god of Mridangam. In fact, people who play exceptionally well are often conferred the title "Kali Yuga Nandi" although there is no consensus on the criterion for such things.

Tezz

@TheDestroyer yeah... I think these are accounts of Nandi of various Kalpas/ Manvantaras...

@TheDestroyer also... Vrishava means the strong one... or one who holds...

The Destroyer

@anuvaramban I never heard of Nandi playing Mridanga. I think tamil literature says it.

Sree Charan

@Tezz Vrisha means Dharma.

"Vrishabhah -The term Vrisha though not very familiar now is used in the Vedic literature to indicate Dharma-“the essential nature of a thing without which the thing cannot remain as the thing” is its Dharma. One who showers all Dharmas is called Vrishabhah. In short, one who showers glowing health, burning devotion and thrilling silence on all sincere seekers and faithful devotees is Vrishabhah; and He is Sri Narayana. "

Above is the interpretation of Vrishabha name in Vishnu sahasranama by Adi shankara @TheDestroyer @Tezz

Tezz

@SreeCharan yeah... Dharma is that which holds...

Sree Charan

5:23 AM

@TheDestroyer I heard it many times. I don't think it is exclusive for tamil literature.

The Destroyer

@SreeCharan ohh.. I never read that in Puranas. I think i missed it.

anuvaramban

@TheDestroyer Are you aware of Shiva Temples without Nandi in complete bull form facing Shiva? That would be interesting.

@TheDestroyer Also, wiki says this, "The oldest Saivite texts in Sanskrit, Tamil and other Indian languages, the name Nandi was widely used instead for an anthropomorphic door-keepers of Kailasha rather than his mount."

The Destroyer

@anuvaramban Yes. Kapaleswara temple in Nasik doesn't have Nandi.

anuvaramban

So if you find a temple where Nandi Bull form is not installed, then it is possibly a very old temple and you should check if the DwaraPalakas includes an Anthropomorphic NandiKesava

The Destroyer

@anuvaramban Yeah. It is general belief. But Shiva Purana mentions Nandi looks similar to Shiva.

Tezz

5:29 AM

@anuvaramban Yeah....Shiva only sometimes rides on Nandi... the bull which he rides is actually Dharma...

The Destroyer

5

Q: Was Nandi really a bull?

The general belief about Nandi (related to Lord Shiva) is that he is a bull who is generally in human form but at times changes into the form of a bull. But after reading Shiva Purana, I feel that Nandi is not the bull but a person who has an appearance similar to Lord Shiva. See the below snapsh...

mythology shiva puranas shiva-purana nandi

@anuvaramban

Sree Charan

@Tezz Earth is depicted as a cow and Dharma as Bull(Because its sanskrit word is vrishabha)

Tezz

@SreeCharan the personified form of Dharma is also bull...

anuvaramban

@TheDestroyer interesting.

The Destroyer

6:03 AM

@Tezz Can you give me references for statements "Shiva-Shakti are one and same". "they can't be separated"?

Tezz

8:42 AM

@TheDestroyer Shiva Purana Vyayaviya Samhita:

एवं परस्परापेक्षा शक्तिशक्तिमतोः स्थिता ।
न शिवेन विना शक्तिर्न शक्त्या च विना शिवः ।।

There is mutual dependence between Shakti and Shaktiman. There is no Shakti without Shiva and no Shiva without Shakti.

शब्दजालमशेषं तु धत्ते सर्वस्य वल्लभा ।
अर्थस्वरुपमखिलं धत्ते मुग्धेन्दुशेखरः ।।

The beloved of Shiva (Uma) is in the form of words. The moon crested Lord (Maheswara) is in the form of meaning of those words.

Kalidasa in Raghuvamsam also states the same above thing:

Vaagaarthaviva sampruktau vaagartha pratipattaye...
Jagata pitarau vande Parvati Parameswarau...

The Destroyer

8:54 AM

@Tezz OK. Actually i want, Shiva and Shakti are one and same eternally. It is better if it says wrt time.

I want this for this question.

5

Q: Whose marriage happened first, Lord Shiva's or Lord Vishnu's?

Whose marriage happened first, Lord Shiva's or Lord Vishnu's? I heard that one of them supported the concept of marriage first. Who?