You know what I'm saying is right and you'd do well to just admit it and stop possibly confusing the people here who are trying to learn.

@Danu You just ducked into an absurd safe house of "phase transitions don't happen without disorder" because you refuse to admit that you're just wrong about something.

Talk about cop outs.

I'm surprised, actually.

I so disagree

@Danu You resorted to an infinite container with no nucleation sites. Why, except to avoid the fact that you're wrong, would you do that?

No, I don't care.

You make an obvious claim: Gas with a lot of water around and loci to condense on will condense and hence not be an ideal gas. That's clear to everyone. However that is not at all inherent to the gas, but just the surroundings you put it in. The gas, when isolated, will be have just like usual

That's my claim, and you refrain to even address it: that's a cop-out imo

@Danu Put a bunch of steam in a box. There's no water anywhere. Cool the box. You get water. Explain that with the ideal gas model.

Also I'm on my phone so I'm slow as fuck

@DanielSank okay, I also agree with that, and it's a reasonable point; still needs nucleation though. What about a small amount of gaa in the middle of a large box

@Danu Of course it's a reasonable point! Note that when you forgo nonsense like infinite containers and "no dust" you actually get results that match the real world.

@Danu That still turns to water.

Or it sticks to the walls of the box. Explain that with the ideal gas model.

@DanielSank I'm saying it's far from the edge

Then the molecules fly apart and stick to the box walls. Not idea gas behavior at all.

@DanielSank stop being condescending

I will ignore that, as it is irrelevant, misleading, and probably flame bait.

@DanielSank okay, I see you're not willing to consider the setup I'm hinting at.

@Danu I did consider it. If there are no walls the gas particles will fly apart from each other until they do find walls.

If this is a super low pressure situation like you're describing, then water will stick to the walls.

Water is very much not an ideal gas at all.

I'm interested in something else but you're obviously not. It's okay, never mind.

This is why you have to bake out high vacuum systems. You have to get the water molecules out, and it's really hard.

If water were even remotely an idea gas it wouldn't be hard to get it out of a vacuum system.

Your tone has effectively made me lose interest. Please don't be aggressive about it next time

I think we need to ignore each other. Our conversations are getting dumber and dumber, and I'm totally mind boggled. You were the first to call names, and now it's my fault for bad tone. I don't get it at all. If you want to email me and discuss it I'd be willing, but until then I'm just going to put you on ignore so we don't add our BS to the chat.

SUSY is slowly getting to slightly more topics anyways so I guess I'll be leaving gor now. Bye @DanielSank

@DanielSank aww, so bad? I don't see it so negatively

@Danu I do. Nobody needs to read this garbage. Furthermore, I'm sitting here trying to explain why I think water is not an ideal gas and I get called for a "cop-out" and then accused of bad tone. It's frustrating and unpleasant.

Why continue?

You know, @Danu, you should probably consider the fact that you have this problem not only with me.

I don't think I'm the common factor in that.

@DanielSank i agree this particular conversation was not constructive, but in general I think we're fine.

I think you have an established pattern of pushing people's buttons, and I'm starting to think it's on purpose.

We've discussed this before.

@Danu Fine, I won't use the ignore feature, but I'm not having any more discussions like this.

We have, and if you really think that I'll think about it

@Danu I think the fact that you "lol"ed at me in the first twenty seconds, and then we got into this spat is just another data point fitting the pattern.

I can't reply quick enough on phone

I can't remember the last time I had a discussion with you and you didn't write something that made me think you were trying to highlight out your own superior intellect over mine.

:-)

Sure, but when my friends repeatedly try to use me as a stepping stone for their ego, call me names, and generally engage in unpleasant interactions that's when it's time for a break.

pardon me

Look:

> chiiiicken! That's the worst cop-out I've heard you use

I saw

This introduces name calling and suggests that I use cop outs regularly.

That's his style

You know what, I'm flagging that, because I'm sick of this.

Please don't

Take a break

I'll move this to a separate room @DanielSank (I've also deleted that comment; my apologies if it offended you).

← 17 messages moved from The h Bar

What is this temp chat wizardry?

← 13 messages moved from The h Bar

Why did you do this?

Hi @DanielSank: As you already mentioned it's better not to pollute the entire chat with this.

I'm not trying to "hide" anything---the room is public.

@DanielSank Here is my take on the situation more generally---please hear me out.

Ok, what do you want to talk about? I think we're done discussing whether or not water is an ideal gas.

Quick interjection: there are a few other messages prior to this conversation that need to be removed from the h bar; any preference whether I move them here or delete them?

@DavidZ No preference.

@DavidZ Move them here.

OK [edit] ...done

@DanielSank I've always regarded you as a bit of a closer "friend" (though I guess you don't think that word is justified---more about that later) than most people in the h bar. I think we got along very well, at least until, let's say, 2 months ago. First of all, I'd like to hear if you agree on that (but I'll keep on typing my view).

← 27 messages moved from The h Bar

@Danu Agreed.

I leave it to you guys to work out whatever is going on. Ping me if you need me :-)

@DanielSank I have this habit, which I think briefly came up in an earlier conversation, of being very frank with people I regard as quite friendly, since I feel confident that they will not feel offended by what I'm saying, even if it definitely crosses the line if said to people that are not close to me. In particular, making fun of stuff people say, etc. We talked about this already.

While you're typing I think we should clear up a misconception. You don't "offend" me. Some times I find the conversation simply devoid of interesting content.

@DanielSank Wow, I think that's a huge difference---the stuff you just said earlier sounded very offended to me.

This isn't an issue of offense, it's an issue of how I want to spend my time. When I start to think you're just feeding your own ego I just lose interest.

"I'm sick of it" etc.

@Danu I can be sick of having tacos every day. That doesn't mean tacos offend me.

@DanielSank ...come on, you know what I mean, right?

You sounded very angry.

Let's put it this way: an innocent bystander would for sure interpret it as anger.

And I did, too.

@Danu You know, as someone who used to do what you're doing I think I'd like to tell you something. I think you're using this "I'm just blunt" line as a way to avoid dealing with the fact that you're too lazy to put your thoughts into an effective structure.

@DanielSank Okay, and as I said I'll think about what you're saying. But the stuff you said earlier went a lot further than that, in my opinion.

@Danu Sure, but I'm telling you how I really feel.

I'm not offended. Jokes about Arabs all being terrorists offend me.

You do not.

@DanielSank Okay, but can you understand that, to me, you came across as upset and angry just now?

@Danu Please do. You have repeatedly forced me into low quality discussing by calling me names etc. and then turned around and blamed me for it. You need to realize that this is your problem.

@Danu Sure.

I don't have this issue with anyone else in hbar, so if you're having this discussion repeatedly because of interactions with multiple users you need to consider what that data is telling you.

@DanielSank I see that you can view the discussion today in this way, but I don't think this happened with you before. You were very annoyed some time ago when I said "lol", which seemed to imply me thinking you were dumb, one time, and we had a discussion about that at that time.

Other than that, I don't recall any unpleasantness. Do you see a larger pattern (more examples?)?

@Danu Yes, and at that time you told me that you had repeatedly had to think about your tone in hbar due to interactions with others.

@Danu I don't have examples at my fingertips, just this perception that more and more often when we talk to each other I wind up annoyed.

@DanielSank I told you something a bit more subtle, but sure.

@Danu I don't remember the details and I'm not sure I really care.

@DanielSank Okay. This may very well be true. I have not really gotten any signals of annoyance from you on other occassions, AFAIK.

Someone starred my message about pushing people's buttons. If that wasn't you, then someone agrees, I guess.

@DanielSank Yes (and no, wasn't me).

@Danu I don't have or want to hunt for examples.

I'm just not interested.

@Danu So please pause for a moment, put your mental defenses aside, and think about what that means.

@DanielSank Sure, but I'd still like to understand the situation better, in order to see the attitude issue you're accusing me of having more clearly.

@Danu I have little else to say.

Would you like a play-by-play analysis of where I think you drove our conversation off the road?

@DanielSank Okay, but it leaves me unsure where I went wrong. For instance, I recall having more fun discussions with you recently as well, e.g. about cooking and how to make this mapo tofu stuff

It was the part where you said "cop-out".

@Danu Yes, you never said "cop-out" in that discussion.

@DanielSank In this particular conversation it was rather clear---never mind that and again, I apologize if it angered you.

You also didn't avoid admitting error by constructing irrelevant distractions.

@Danu You're also not listening, which is frustrating.

I already said, you did not, nor have ever angered me.

@DanielSank annoyed, then.

Rubbed the wrong way

You occasionally make me feel like I'm wasting my time. This is annoying, perhaps "exasperating", but not angering.

The particular word is not so interesting to me

@Danu Well, since we're exchanging information with words we do need to get them more or less right :-)

@DanielSank Please stay constructive---I know that you didn't like the way I talked to you today, but I hope you're trying to see I'm genuinely trying to listen to you and talk this out. When you say things like that, I get the feeling you're interested only in putting me down.

You know, I don't buy this. I doubt you need to understand the situation better. I think you know exactly what's going on and you just don't want to change your habits. That's my guess.

@Danu I'm trying to get you to really think about what's going on.

I'm not sure how that was not constructive. I meant what I said. Our discussions of cooking are fun because you don't say anything condescending. No name calling.

I wrote that message in good faith.

Okay, let's get to the more general issue:

So, besides annoyances with 0celo7 that I've had in the past, I'm not sure I agree with you that I have anyone else with whom I have issues in the h bar. The way you keep on repeating how I need to change etc. (which, I'm not saying is wrong!) suggests that you have a lot of other people/situations in mind. Do you?

^Note the edit---messed one sentence up

@Danu Vague memories combined with the fact that I thought you told me you had issues with other people.

@DanielSank There, I only meant 0celo7, and that's a case that is well-documented and, I think, probably resolved.

Also, the way you've repeatedly explained yourself by saying you have a problem of being blunt really makes me think there's something else going on.

That excuse is really common in people who have bad communication habits and don't want to change.

Sure.

You've used this "blunt" explanation with me at least twice. I don't know why you'd even mention it if you weren't aware that you have communication issues with several people.

The reason I'm telling you this stuff about bluntness is because I was clearly too blunt to you twice---what else would you like me to tell you than: Sorry, I was too blunt, that happens sometimes.

Well, in my armchair psychologist opinion, I'd like you to consider that bluntness isn't the problem.

Would you have thought it more reasonable when I said: No, really, there is no issue here, just get over it? I'm not sure.

However, I'm getting a bit of an armchair psychologist vibe with the way you're telling me off.

@DanielSank Right.

danu and I have had semi serous issues, but like I said that's his style take it or leave it

@skillpatrol thanks for noting it.

Is that enough evidence for you, @Danu?

Can you point out some issues?

@DanielSank ^

me?

Yes

> So, besides annoyances with 0celo7 that I've had in the past, I'm not sure I agree with you that I have anyone else with whom I have issues in the h bar.

nah, water under the bridge pal

> danu and I have had semi serous issues, but like I said that's his style take it or leave it

@skillpatrol No, please, that's what this is all about right?

@DanielSank Sorry, you misunderstood--- that "^" message was to show you I was asking him about the issues to gather evidence.

Remember the "fifth amendment" video? ;-P

Err... no :P

freedom of speech

Can you explain what happened?

@Danu, you're doing the same thing that annoys me in our physics discussions right now. You know what the problem is. You've more or less identified it yourself when you say you're "blunt". The problem is that you're sugar coating name calling and condescension as "blunt".

@DanielSank Okay---you've made your point.

Ugh, I'm not being helpful am I?

Look, just try to avoid name calling users and their argumentation for a while and see if that helps.

We worked it out in separate chat room like this

@DanielSank You are being very repetitive, which I find slightly offensive as it makes it very clear that you consider me to be incapable of understanding/accepting your message in one go.

Oh, I see, so now if I feel that a point didn't get across and try to rephrase it I'm offending you?

@DanielSank No need to get defensive! Relax... I got your message, I promise ;)

@Danu To be totally honest I don't yet have any reason to believe that :)

So far you claimed you never had any issues with anyone else, which turned out to be false.

You kept talking about angering and offending me, despite me having explained that that's not the issue. So from my end it's hard to see that any points were really conveyed effectively. This could be entirely my own fault for repeating the same thing over and over.

OK. Lecture ended (10 AM) and hence I have to go now, sorry---and I'll talk to you later.

ciao

I'll freeze the room (not delete)

cya later

Any last words, anyone? You have 30 seconds.

Perhaps review this convo?

@skillpatrol sure

Freezing now!

:-)