Jaami'at StackExchange al-Islamyya

infatuated

05:14

Thanks @goldPseudo and @JackDouglas for your explanations in meta! I can now better understand the rationale behind the decision, however the trend that mods or users have to go with a selective, case-by-case method of moderating political questions can at times make it difficult to understand whether the decision was made based on rules or a personal expediency judgement especially when some other questions on exactly the same topic remain afloat and apparently even properly handled.

But I guess the topic is not also the only criteria, as what exactly is asked and how also do a lot in making a question meet the standards.

But as for a long term solution, I think since recent events political questions are quite popular with muslims, we should work out a protocol on how even asking those questions. I may a write a meta on my idea as to what some of the rules of a protocol can be.

Bludream

06:26

@infatuated, salam are you there?

infatuated

Alaikum assalaam. yes!

I'm on both fronts now! :)

Bludream

both fronts?

infatuated

@Bludream, yeah, how are you?

Mujahid مجاهد

@Bludream fronts = chat and meta (I think | maybe)

Bludream

I just got notified that my answer to ISIS being under islamic rules was deleted!!

infatuated

06:39

yeah, i noticed that. you can expect pretty much everything political in this site get deleted and closed as politics are still a problematic for this site.

Bludream

I see

it was political

but the other answer was not deleted

and my post was marked as being offensive

I saw that you discussed with others about it

infatuated

to me your answer seemed nice and appropriate and I could hardly conceive of why it was deemed offensive unless by a person strongly supportive of ISIS.

Bludream

could you give me a quick summary of what happened?

I can accept maybe it was political, but it wasn't oofensive

infatuated

summary, hmm, just a discussion on how politics should be regularly handled on this by the least reliance on personal judgement. that was all!

Bludream

and do you think I have the right for the other answer to be deleted or the question altogether then??

salam @goldPseudo

how r u brother!

?

goldPseudo

06:43

wa 'alaykum assalaam

Bludream

I hope allah helps you on the way of moderating this community, it's a hell of a work

infatuated

the question closure is a different issue, but as far as I know it is sufficient that one person flags your post as offensive, and by any stretch of the word offensive and with the least indication confirming that, the flags can be readily approved!

Bludream

hehe, must be so tiring for you

@infatuated, right! but it wasn't at all offensive

hmm let me read it once more

infatuated

it would be less tiring inshllah when we work out solutions on handling things more regularly here. i am currently working on a lengthy meta discussion.

Bludream

ok good!

plz also mention in your post that, Islam is not a religion of people living in alone places, it's bounded with our life and politics and wars and everything

everything on muslim world must be discussed here

goldPseudo

06:48

@Bludream oh, yeah, like that argument hasn't been pushed before.

Bludream

I know @goldPseudo

but we should really reconsider about politics here

infatuated

fairly agree. islam is interwoven with pretty much everything in our life, but we should try to arrive at ways of properly handling them as part of the study of islam.

goldPseudo

we are not an Islamic site.

the sooner people realize that, the better.

Bludream

how are you going to study Islam then @goldPseudo?? only history??

goldPseudo

you want politics to be on-topic, fine. but you need to figure out how to make them constructive.

2

infatuated

06:50

@goldPseudo, "we are not an Islamic site" but i wonder if we practically can!

goldPseudo

just arguing ad nauseum that they "should" be allowed doesn't help anything.

infatuated

agreed!

goldPseudo

"Unfortunately, there's a long history of sectarianism on this site. It might be impossible for some users to separate their current allegiances from their analysis of questions of history. If so, we can't expect questions of politics itself not to devolve into a sort of popularity contest. I'd prefer to see a good body of apolitical questions of history before attempting to tackle politics itself."

Bludream

ok

but

by this look, we shoud close everything

all wars of propthet then can be considered political

things three caliphs didd

goldPseudo

then close them.

infatuated

06:54

i generally think this site should be more realistic and reflect the concerns of the muslims. not that everything muslims fancy must be allowed on the site, but when there is a lot of Islamic basis for many of these concerns we should find ways of handling them.

goldPseudo

close everything.

Bludream

all re political too

we should not be a site of a history

goldPseudo

as far as i'm concerned, almost all the questions on this site should be closed.

Bludream

we should try to help the muslim world

@goldPseudo, don't be angry brother

goldPseudo

@Bludream that's not what we're here for.

We are not an Islamic site

We are a secular site studying the topic of Islam.

infatuated

06:55

I hopefully address a lot of these concerns (by muslims and by our community) in an initiative in meta.

Bludream

we are a secular site studying islam??

goldPseudo

yes.

we always have been.

Bludream

why doesn't that also happen in christian or miyodeya site??

infatuated

"We are a secular site studying the topic of Islam" that's one piece of despotic policy by SE admins which a lot o muslims can not just accept!

3

Ice Boy

Define: secular

goldPseudo

06:57

@infatuated then leave. nobody's forcing you to use the site.

Ice Boy

Relax

goldPseudo

53

Q: Brothers, we are not Christians‼

I am a Christian. You say you are. But we are not.1 It seems that a lot of folks are having a hard time wrapping their heads around the scope of this site. While I respect the SE staff2 and have been impressed with the effort they have taken (and judgement they have shown) in nurturing this site...

infatuated

Relax!

it is upon us to decide what this site should be.

goldPseudo

@infatuated and if you decide the site should be something that SE doesn't want, they'll shut us down hard.

Bludream

but SE goes by community

they won't just shut us down

infatuated

06:59

let be it! let be it! if they are not going to recognize what it takes to be a site about Islam, they are destined to fail!

Bludream

yeah, agreee

Mujahid مجاهد

:)

infatuated

really I'm not being argumentative, it is about being realistic!

Bludream

salam @muslim1. how r u brother?

Mujahid مجاهد

there are other things on the internet to use to help this Ummah

Bludream

07:00

@Mujahidمجاهد

infatuated

@Mujahidمجاهد, sure!

Bludream

@goldPseudo, Can I expect that question to be deleted then?? it is political and only has one answer and no one can express another view there!

??

goldPseudo

@Bludream it's also under discussion on meta.

Mujahid مجاهد

yes Stackexchange is useful, and because of it's ratings/resaults on traffic engines it is useful at bringing information out

goldPseudo

it's closed. it'll probably get deleted automatically if nobody can fix it.

Mujahid مجاهد

07:02

but if you want to help the Ummah, Stackexchange cannot be relied on totally

Bludream

why not?

SE is very moderated by it's community

very democratic!!

Mujahid مجاهد

if something is against it's policies deal with it, use of it what you can, and use other tools that are available

infatuated

@Mujahidمجاهد, surely SE has its limitations and advantages (pretty much like everything else in this world), but i think there is much room for improvement for Islam.SE.

Mujahid مجاهد

@infatuated of course

and I say the only true improvement needed, is in the matter of the community it self

Bludream

and I'm sure SE will allow us to run the site the way we decide ourselves

goldPseudo

07:04

there's a difference between "room for improvement" and "shoehorning something into the SE model that it warn't designed for"

Mujahid مجاهد

what we have here is not a community

Bludream

but just take a look at the christianity's and jewish SE

why can't we be also like them?

infatuated

But do you think admins are not flexible to respond to some of the distinct expectations of their sites, if they are reasonable and help SE improve?

goldPseudo

@infatuated that's what meta feature-request is for.

infatuated

@Mujahidمجاهد, the question is can we have a thriving community with the current SE policies!

@goldPseudo, exactly, and I am preparing a thorough meta discussion for it!

goldPseudo

07:07

but most of the limitations of the SE model are by design. we as a site are intentionally crippled in a number of ways.

infatuated

intentionally?

goldPseudo

intentionally.

use the system as it's intended, and things work smoothly.

try to shoehorn forum mentality into the SE framework, on the other hand, things will be frustratingly limited.

Bludream

bros, I nee to be going

infatuated

forum mentality is definitely wrong for this site and must be dealt with accordingly.

Bludream

pla don't forget me in your prayers

*plz

infatuated

07:11

take care @Bludream, and muhtaj-e dua!

Jack Douglas

08:20

@infatuated you're welcome, glad it was any help

2 hours ago, by goldPseudo

you want politics to be on-topic, fine. but you need to figure out how to make them constructive.

^^^ I'm pretty sure this is the underlying crucial issue

it's not so important whether political questions are allowed, buy why they are generally not constructive

at that matters because you are treading a fine line on this site with resolving competing visions

1 hour ago, by infatuated

"We are a secular site studying the topic of Islam" that's one piece of despotic policy by SE admins which a lot o muslims can not just accept!

^^^ here's the deal, if you are right and the SE admins are despotic or perhaps 'anti-Islam' by virtue of being secular or have 'western' ideology, does that mean this site cannot be useful to Islam?

You'll have to take your own view on that but fwiw, I face exactly the same dilemma as a Christian. I;m not sure you will believe that but I assure you it is true - the choice I face is to decide whether contributing on SE has value despite it being alien and secular territory.

Perhaps an analogy can help: in Britain, the government is secular and those who want to promote their religion may find opposition from secular authorities who can if they wish exert considerable power against us.

But that doesn't mean there is no point doing what you can

Mujahid مجاهد

@JackDouglas I agree

and that was my among my points above

@JackDouglas it is not a matter of usefulness to Islam

Islam.SE

08:37

0

Q: Can a moderator vote twice on a single post?

I have raised a concerne in the past that some of our moderators use double votes in their favor. Someone probably @celeb corrected me that it is not even possible. I want to clarify that. Example: A user asks a question. Moderator "A" down votes it right away. Then moderator "A" uses his moder...

discussion support moderation

Mujahid مجاهد

the matter is on us, for example some may feel that participating on here maybe a sin, for a number of reasons, one maybe because one may feel limited (similar to that of your analogy) and can't fulfill the obligation, or some other reason

Jack Douglas

@Mujahidمجاهد what are the criteria for deciding whether participating here may be a sin?

(sorry for my ignorance)

Is this true: "The general view is that everything is permissible unless there is a verse in the Quran or a hadith that would say it is prohibited"

infatuated

@JackDouglas, I agree that there is much that can be already done under current rules and policies and that's why I'm still on this site (even right now am actually busy writing a quite meaty answer to a philosophical question), but I think we can still improve the site rules to better reflect our genuine concerns. And generally if you're asking me on the problem of secular vs theist, i personally envision (and even vehemently aspire and pursue) a world where religion reigns supreme over all!

but evidently, the validity and acceptability of that agenda to others all lies in the question "why and how?"

and exactly for satisfying those questions, I'm here on this site and every where else that are designated for intellectual exchange!

Mujahid مجاهد

@JackDouglas there is no criteria.

Jack Douglas

@infatuated I'm interested what you mean by "why and how?" - the 'how' I understand but isn't the 'why' generally agreed?

@Mujahidمجاهد ah, OK - is it a 'conscience' question?

infatuated

08:49

i meant why i am pursuing that agenda and how should I!

why? all people have reasons for their beliefs but i think a lot of reasons may not and are not really persuasive to many.

Jack Douglas

@infatuated OK. The answer to 'how should I' is probably 'realistically'. There really is no point in wasting energy trying to change what cannot be changed - folk get more return from their effort trying things that are possible than those that are impossible.

infatuated

but i think that may be possible, if not then giving up is inevitable.

Jack Douglas

@infatuated what exactly do you think is possible?

Mujahid مجاهد

@JackDouglas yes (I guess you can say that)

Jack Douglas

0

A: Can a moderator vote twice on a single post?

Describing 'downvote + close vote' as 'voting twice' seems quite strange and is likely to confuse folk reading your question - it's like saying 'being able to vote for House and Senate is unfair double voting', but those two votes are for different things. Anyway, yes it is possible to downvote ...

^^^ am I making sense here?

it struck me as a kind of bizarre question

Mujahid مجاهد

08:58

@JackDouglas yes :P

infatuated

building new consensus about topics that are so far considered off-topic or undecided.

Jack Douglas

@infatuated building consensus may or may not be possible - it depends on whether there exists an underlying common ground, and that depends on what the topic is. Do you have particular topics in mind?

infatuated

I already mentioned that in my earlier discussions in chat: Islamic politics. however I will also discuss how politics can be practically handled, as there is much less debate about whether a lot of politics are related to Islam than on whether they can be properly handled on this site.

muslim1

09:47

@Bludream I am good. Thanks and you?

@goldPseudo Wow we are secular site :) Awesome statement

infatuated

10:48

ouuufff finally, it took me 2 hours of intensive mental effort to put this answer together. hope it is useful and sense-making to the readers.

0

A: Can Allah change the past?

The answer to your question is negative; however we know that whatever we do (good or evil) is recorded by angels or imprinted in our soul. But the concept of repentance and nullification (habt) in Islam imply that these effects can be altered by doing their antitheses: sins by good deeds; and go...

Ahlelbayt

11:15

Assalamalaikum

I agree with user infatuated

Politics should be on topic here

infact I was redicted to a question and most answers also supported politics on this site

This site is failing because politics is not allowed and we know Islam itself is a political movement by SE standards

all prophets were political

I just reviewd other religion sites and I found many olitical questions there

so this is an unnecessary constraint here.

Ahlelbayt

11:44

political question on judaism SE:

5

Q: What should a Jew do if encountered by ISIS?

Theoretically, if (Gd forbid) ISIS took over Israel, and the Jew in question was not immediately killed because he was Jewish and was not in the financial situation to pay the required taxes, should the Jew allow himself to be executed or become a practicing Muslim?

gerut-conversion islam

Jack Douglas

16:18

I've read this:

22

Q: Islam SE: Not a Muslim Peer Support Group

I recently closed a question which raises an issue we've only just been skirting around. Remember that the purpose behind an "Islam Stack Exchange" is to build a compilation of knowledge about the subject of "Islam" — You cannot reasonably hope to cover any possible questions of interest to Musl...

discussion scope

And I've glanced at this:

-3

Q: Please please please read this and suggest me about my relation?

Please read from start to end and then give me suggestions and answer my questions. I am in a 7 years relationship with a girl without marriage. We both loved each other too much. We both wanted to marry but that time my parents wanted me to complete my Bachelors. This was not my fault because of...

islamic-rules marriage relationships love

Apart from the very long list the latter has a question (one of which it has been closed for), it's what I would call 'pastoral' - ie it is asking for specific personal life about his own life. According to the meta post above, I.SE is "Not a Muslim Peer Support Group" - does that mean these questions are always off topic here? Should I ask this on meta?

3

Q: Validity of a Muslim marrying a Christian woman

My husband and I recently got married. He is a Muslim, I am Catholic Christian. We had a nikah ceremony in the presence of friends and family, which was officiated by an imam. Three weeks after our wedding, my husband called me and said the American Muslim Society doesn't recognize our marriage ...

islamic-rules marriage mehr

^^^ this is an example of one that is not closed, obviously it could be re-phrased to be about the principles and not about the personal circumstances, would that make it a better question from the sites perspective?

goldPseudo

17:51

6

Q: (Islamic) counseling and agony-aunt

(This has plagued me for a long time now) It's worries me to see that this site is condoning and catering questions like: urgently need advices for a divorce. I don't know how to convince my parents! how to practically unchain yourself from sins? Is divorce the best solution for my problem How...

discussion

they're overall discouraged unless they can be reasonably generalized.

5

Q: Social questions off-topic or non-constructive?

I have seen some important social questions closed as non-constructive: What can one do when one is married but loves someone else? [closed] Should I side with my parents or my husband? This question was closed just after asked, and now it's re-opened. I think these and similar questions are ...

discussion

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Jaami'at StackExchange al-Islamyya