I was a Christian for rather more time than I've been a Muslim, so I actually know the Bible somewhat better than I know The Qur'an. This will change in the years to come, God willing.

@DavidWallace OK thanks, I understand now. The Surah Islam recommended appears to mention Christian's quite a lot but also appears to draw a distinction between certain Christians (or perhaps Jews?) who are monotheistic. I am left wondering if this is a reference to Arianism.

Umm, which particular ayah was it?

Hi :)

it's 114 (it's linked in my comment)

There seems to me to be a pretty clear message that Christians who do not convert to Islam are going to Hell, is that the correct reading? The only caveat is that I'm not sure how to interpret ayah 128

I'm not sure that you're reading it correctly. It seems to me from 2:62 that a Christian can escape hell by doing good deeds.

And I think 3:128 says that it is God's choice, for any non-Muslim, whether their good deeds warrant being spared; and that 3:113-114 gives an example of what particular type of non-Muslim might escape hell.

But I am not a scholar, and you should probably seek answers to your questions from someone better qualified than me.

@Jack, one important thing to remember about paradise and hell in Islam is that it's a lot more complex than Christianity. Christianity basically teaches us that Christians go to heaven, regardless of what sort of life they've led, and everyone else goes to hell. Catholics, of course, have purgatory as well, as a kind of in-between option. But Islam teaches us that we are judged by both our beliefs and our deeds. It also teaches us that heaven and hell isn't quite such a binary choice.

There are seven levels of paradise, and only the best people get to go to the highest level. There are also many, many rewards that are available within each level of paradise, that we can earn during our earthly lives. But as well as our beliefs, we have to live righteous lives to earn even the lowest level of paradise.

Also, hell can be a temporary proposition. Only the very worst sinners go to hell forever. It is possible for someone to go to hell for a short time, for their sins to be cleansed; and then to be admitted to paradise after that.

Only Allah knows exactly how any one of us will be judged, which is why we must continue to live Islam, every minute of our lives, rather than being complacent about being admitted to paradise.

Ah, thanks, I wasn't aware of those nuances. The Christian position is also complex in the sense that although the outcome is basically binary (though nuanced too), it is the 'elect' who are saved rather than those who think they are Christians. The big divide seems to be what 'qualifies' a person: good works or God's sovereign choice?

I don't know what you mean by that last sentence.

"Islam teaches us that we are judged by both our beliefs and our deeds"

In Christianity, God chooses us before any beliefs and deeds, and we believe and do good deeds because of that prior choice

Actually, that sounds similar to the case with Islam too.

Allah chooses whom to guide and whom to leave unguided. And we don't really know the basis on which He does so. But those whom he guides live as good Muslims, and those whom he does not guide never follow the truth.

Also interesting. I got the distinct impression talking to Ali that he and I both believed in a God of absolute sovereignty.

Yes, but He has also given us free will. Our decisions are our own.

free from what?

@DavidWallace Am I correct to read Zalimun and Al-Munkar as including Christians? I read them that way because of the Muhsin Khan commentary referring to 'polytheism' (though it may be a more specific reference to pagan religion?)

@JackDouglas I don't know how better to phrase it. Our lives are only pre-destined in the sense that Allah knows all our decisions ahead of time; not in the sense that He has made those decisions for us. Which is why, every day, I CHOOSE whether to get out of bed in time for my morning prayers. I CHOOSE whether to do other things that Allah has commanded me to do. My life is a series of choices that are entirely my own to make.

@JackDouglas Al-Munkar includes Christians. I'm not sure about Zalimun.

The Qur'an talks a lot about "those who ascribe partners to Allah". This definitely includes trinitarian Christians, where the "partners" are Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

@DavidWallace innalazina kafaroo min ahlil kitabe wal mushrikeena fi naree jahannama khaledina feeha

Can you tell me in English?

Something about unbelievers earning eternal hell, right?

@DavidWallace quran.com/98/6

What is an "unbeliever from among the people of the book"? Surely a Christian or a Jew is by definition a believer?

@JackDouglas do read this short surah too quran.com/98

@DavidWallace disbelievers are those who reject Prophet

pbuh

@DavidWallace Christian\Jew who rejects Muhammad pbuh after clear proofs have come to them are disbelievers

But that interpretation would contradict 3:113-114.

There may be Jews\Christians who may not have heard of the prophet pbuh or the correct message did not reach them e.g they did not read the Quran or understood it. Then in such a case they may be excused?

I think you're reading stuff into 98:6 that isn't actually there.

@DavidWallace Unbeliever among people of book are those who reject Muhammad pbuh

But that is all Christians and Jews.

There were casesof christians at time of Prophet who did not know about the prophet pbuh

OK, fair enough.

Not necessary there can be christians who accept Muhammad as prophet but appear as christians

I guess Negus is one example

Also some mormons do accept Muhammad pbuh as prophet

I don't know who Negus is. But surely, if you accept Muhammad (PBUH) as a prophet of God, then you must accept those ayat that specifically reject the notion of Allah having a son. And that means that you're not a Christian.

The point is that after clear proofs (Bayyinah) comes to anyone about Muhammad pbuh then if he rejects then he is destined to eternal hellfire

OK, but 98:6 doesn't mention Bayyinah. I am trying to distinguish between what, out of what you're saying, is actually there in the Qur'an, and what has actually come from other sources.

Only because I have read the views of another scholar, which differ from yours.

gives definition of disbeliever

No, really it doesn't.

@DavidWallace The majority scholars believe otherwise

islamqa.info/en/727

The hadeeth is: "By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, there is no-one of this ummah, Jew or Christian, who hears of me then dies without believing in that with which I have been sent, but he will be one of the people of Hell." (Reported by Muslim, may Allaah have mercy on him, in al-Saheeh, 153).

The aayah is (interpretation of the meaning): "And whoever seeks a religion other than Islaam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers." [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]

Also about surah bayyinah:

islam-qa.com/en/13350

@Islam Interesting, this is pretty much how I'd sum up what I read in Surah 3, esp 3:86. Thanks for clarifying and I'm encouraged I'm not reading the Qur'an completely wrong from the start!

@DavidWallace to help me understand, do you believe that Allah could prevent you 'getting out of bed in time' should he so choose (even if you wanted to), and perhaps more profoundly, do you believe that Allah could sovereignly change your desires, implanting the desire to stay in bed, so that you would 'freely' choose to stay in bed (though that was not your prior intent)?

@JackDouglas I'm not sure about Arianism, but I've often read (by non-Muslims) that Muhammad was strongly influenced by Nestorianism.

@JackDouglas Al-munkar refers to deeds, not people. so we would say that polytheism itself is munkar, not that polytheists are. Similarly, Christians have many practices that (to a Muslim) would be considered munkar.

zalimun refers more generally to anyone who acts in an unjust/tyrannical manner, rather than the beliefs they profess. The polytheists who were actively driving the Muslims out of their homes and warring against them during the time of the Prophet were clearly zalimun, but even a (so-called) Muslim leader can be zalimun if he ignores the precepts of Islam.

@goldPseudo that's really helpful, thanks

"al-Munkar" means literally "the rejected"—Wikipedia wrong again?

(or perhaps not, 'the rejected' could mean 'the rejected deeds' rather than 'the rejected people'?)

@JackDouglas corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=nkr <-- A list of all Qur'anic words with the root n-k-r (from which munkar derives). i find this sort of list very useful for understanding the subtleties of how Arabic words are translated.

(of course, that may just be me. i'm rather a fan of linguistics in general.)

Wow, great resource, thanks

corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Zlm <-- same thing for Z-l-m, the root of zalimun.

@goldPseudo In this context though, would you say ayah 86 is specifically referring to Christians? The Jews don't elevate any prophet to the status of 'lords'. Or were there sects around at the time which were being referred to that worshipped Abraham/Moses or whoever?

i've often read that (some of) the jews of the time worshiped Metatron and Ezra; not sure how factual that is or if it's just apologetics at work.

i think the ayah is just meant to be taken generally: Worship God alone, not His creation (be they angels, prophets, or whatever).

@JackDouglas Of course Allah could do those things, if He so chose. He is omnipotent, after all. It's hard for me to think of a reason why He would, though. He guides those whom He wishes to guide, and leaves others to fall astray. But given that I have shown the intention to live the rest of my life as a Muslim, and I pray every day for His guidance, I don't understand why he would cause me NOW to go astray.

@DavidWallace OK, I understand (perhaps). So your 'free choice' in no way restricts the freedom of Allah, but Allah's 'free choice' can restrict yours. So you are 'free' but not 'absolutely free'?

folk mean a whole range of things by 'free choice'

Umm, Allah has the power to restrict my choices, but He chooses not to exercise that power. So I am "absolutely free" in that sense.

Oh, OK

so it was not Allah that changed your heart to incline you towards submission to him when you were an atheist? Or is that not what you mean?

reconciling "free will" and "qadr" has been a rather complicated issue for about as long as Islamic scholarship has been around. i doubt a simple answer is possible.

@JackDouglas I DO believe Allah caused my heart to be inclined towards Him.

These are questions you could ask on the main site. I am painfully aware that I am the least appropriate person to be answering scholarly questions about Islam. As I said earlier, I have not been a Muslim for very much of my life; and I would hate to mislead you with my opinions, if they are not correct.

@JackDouglas I don't think He changed my heart. I think he used earthly means to influence me. He knew my weaknesses, and caused circumstances which played on those weaknesses.