@DhoweedYaAgov no, I mean Allah made the special or chose them over the world at their time, for every time has a world

@DhoweedYaAgov really, I never knew that you have a maghrib prayer, ( a prayer at sunset)

@ArmondAnand Welcome to Islam.SE's chatroom

ok im back

@AlUmmatمجاهد yes we have a night prayer called ma3reev/b

@DhoweedYaAgov I see

@DhoweedYaAgov, I have not read Turah, but have heard somewhere that in Turah Jacob peace be upon him has been told to wrestel against the God and has won him, is that true? If you will be interested I am curious to know how different religions and Sects believe in God. Indeed, this is the very spirit of religion according to Hadeeth, Islam very much criticizes the rest of beliefs for how that they think about Allah, e.g. Christians believing in trinity, or believing Allah having body and etc.

@owari no that is a christian mistranslation like the rest of the Torah which they corrupted with their skewed translation

@owari And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 26 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was strained, as he wrestled with him. 27 And he said: 'Let me go, for the day breaketh.' And he said: 'I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.' 28 And he said unto him: 'What is thy name?' And he said: 'Jacob.'

29 And he said: 'Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel; for thou hast striven with God and with men, and hast prevailed.' 30 And Jacob asked him, and said: 'Tell me, I pray thee, thy name.' And he said: 'Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name?' And he blessed him there.

31 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: 'for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.' 32 And the sun rose upon him as he passed over Peniel, and he limped upon his thigh. 33 Therefore the children of Israel eat not the sinew of the thigh-vein which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day; because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh, even in the sinew of the thigh-vein.

@DhoweedYaAgov, is the excerpt the Christian translation or Jew's understanding of Turah? There are many "he"'s therein that I can hardly understand who is saying what to whom but if I am not wrong in Turah it is stated that Jacob wrestled a man that later found out he was god? And he won and the was called Israel instead of Jacob? Maybe I am wrong but if not then Islam firmly criticize the story.

According to Hadeeth Israel peace be upon him was named such either after he took a Jinn into bondage in a mosque or because of his servitude to Allah. Also in Islam, at least Shia Islam, Allah can never be seen through eyes but only through heart, cannot be touched, has no place and cannot fit in the world Himself has created and etc. and this is a big difference between Islam and Christianity, and now also maybe with Judaism?

@DhoweedYaAgov perhaps I should ask, how does Judaism view God? aside from Him being one, and the only one deserving of worship.

Can you give a summery on how judaism views God?

@owari the sentence you are talking specifically about says : wayomar lo Ya3gob yeomeir 3d sheemacho kee eem yisroel ki sareetho 3eem Aloheem wi3eem anosheem watuchol.

He said Not Ya3gob shall be your name anymore but rather Yisroel for you have struggled with Aloheem and with men and you have overcome

the word aloheem means 3 things

@DhoweedYaAgov can you clarify more please?

@AlUmmatمجاهد That's a good idea if @DhoweedYaAgov has time and is in the right mood for that, though

Aloheem means Allah it also means angels and it also means judges or rulers of a city

i actually dont have time because my holiday starts in a few hours

the sentence refers to Ya3gob having a dream of fighting with the gaurdian angel of his brother eisow

@DhoweedYaAgov ok fine, thanks anyway.

check all answers

not just that

the answer below it is better to your situation

Reading the answers, thanks for sharing them :)

np

@AlUmmatمجاهد the plural of Aloheem is not the same as in quran

i know who you are referring too

that imam had a lecture on mohammed in the torah

arabic is different than hebrew in this case

@owari according to judaism HaShem has no body or any senses of small or touch or anything of that sort

@owari all the anthropomorphism in the torah and other books is so that we can better understand what is going on

@DhoweedYaAgov HaShem is Allah?

it is written so we can understand it

@owari yes

HaShem means The Name Ha is the Shem is name

we have respect for G-d that is why we dont say his name in vain

that is one of the commandments in the Torah

One of His names is Aloah

or plural Aloheem

@DhoweedYaAgov And in Quran we have phrases like the hand of Allah but that's only symbolic. And the same is when we say angels have wings and things like that

@owari yes

@DhoweedYaAgov and we don't touch His name unless we are clean!

@owari same in Torah, hand of Allah or Him sitting on a throne. But He doesnt sit or stand He doesnt get tired

@owari yes

@owari quran.com/35/1

@owari that is why jews dont say His real name because we are not clear in goluth. only when Malach HaMoshiahH comes will we say His real name

@DhoweedYaAgov interesting! Judaism is older than the Christianity, I didn't know it is much more immune in this regard!

real christianity was a sect break off from judaism

it is not anymore because no jew fell for their trap

so they didnt have a lot of followers so they went for the poor non jews or prostitutes

and that is what made up the majority of their sect

@DhoweedYaAgov But we believe Jesus was indeed a prophet, that's a bifurcation point between Islam and Judaism

@owari taht is why i said if the creators of islam were trully smart they shouldnt have taken christianity into account

@DhoweedYaAgov Yes, according to Islam the Christianity was also limited to the Isrealite not the whole golbe

that is why it is one sign islam is not true and jews dont follow it

@DhoweedYaAgov why?

because islam accepts christian belief

that isa is the moshiahH

Do you know why Jews were living in Arabia at that time?

what time

At the time Islam was introduced I mean

For example in Medina

the same reason why jews lived in other countries in that time

jews were kicked out of israel

so they ran all over the world

to hide from persecution, but everywhere they went the people persecuted them

this is one of Allah's punishments for us

and He is waiting for us to repent so that Malach HaMoshiahH will come and make things better for us and the rest of the world

it hebrew this is called goluth or in english the diaspora

There are Ahadeeth that say Jews traveled to Arabia in the hope to meet the next prophet and ask for help, they were even using their books and prescribing its time and were constantly withstanding the Arabs which were aggressive to them

@owari i wouldnt be surprised because jews were very passionate and were under a lot of duress

so every sign of a savior/ Malach HaMoshiahH

@DhoweedYaAgov and in Quran we have that diaspora too for Jews, when they refused to enter the city

they would try to investigate and pray that the time of redemption has come

it doesnt mean they were not wrong

also in hadeeth is says jews asked questions to mohammed to see if he was a real prophet and he failed the test

@DhoweedYaAgov yes, but when Islam appeared and they saw the holy prophet was not a descendent of Jacob left him and Arabs accepted him instead, then Jews became enemies of Islam at the time

and that jewish woman who put poison in his food and said if you are a real prophet you will know that there is poison in it

and he didnt know becuase he is a fake prophet

@DhoweedYaAgov can you bring such hadith?

where it says "he failed the test"

it doesnt say he failed the test

it says he makes all jewish laws opposite

@DhoweedYaAgov no! he knew according to Shia, I have once posted the complete Shia version

shia and sunni should deal with thier hadeeths not me

@DhoweedYaAgov Well, what do you think about the Shia version?

i cant say anything because i dont know much bout either group

only thing i know is they could be all fakes

@DhoweedYaAgov we might be fake and you might be fake, we should have a touchstone to recognize the truth and false, do you have any?

We do have if you might care

@owari jews cant be fake according to islam because islam recognizes jews and christians

jews can claim christians and muslims as fakes because they came after

we have precedence

@DhoweedYaAgov they were once the truth but then corrupted according to Islam

@owari and what is your proof?

@owari what ws corrupted? if anything was corrupted

intellect, self consistancy

i dont need vague answers i need quotes i need places where to look to see what was corrupted

i can say quran is corrupted too

it is just an opinion if i cant bring you proof

my claim has no basis then

i know why quran says jews are corrupted

@DhoweedYaAgov yes but do you have any reason for that other than that you have been taught something is true and now you find Quran not coinciding with that?

do you?

yes indeed

what is it?

I have not studied Turah but I can easily discuss Christianity if you mind

@owari do you have reason to belief quran is truth since you were thought that and you are not finding torah coinciding with it

i am not christian i dont need to discuss christianity

it is as false as islam in my eyes

we can discuss Turah after you can state your view about God and ideaology of Jews

@owari islam took many things from judaism. the stance on anthropomorphism in holy books are most likely teh same

@DhoweedYaAgov Islam is Judaism conitinued, but in its original state

@owari that is why i want proof.

proof of what?

@owari if you cant bring proof it doesnt matter what you say

@owari i can say i fly by waving my hands back and forth

do you have proof torah and judaism is changed and that islam is the original torah and judaism?

chas washolom

@DhoweedYaAgov According to Quran yes but according to anything beside that will need me to first study Judaism and its ideology

@DhoweedYaAgov what do you mean?

@owari ok so those who follow the quran and its claim that torah and the people who follow it are following something wrong

and they themselves have not studied anything. then they are sheep

they are uneducated and untrustworthy for they follow something which they themselves dont know anything about

@DhoweedYaAgov where in the Quran does it say that?

@DhoweedYaAgov not very polite, but then I can say you have not studied Quran either

@AlUmmatمجاهد owari says so

@owari i know what claims the quran has on judaism and im telling you they are wrong so i dont need ot study much further

@DhoweedYaAgov no you did

@AlUmmatمجاهد no owari says islam is judaism continued in its original state

and I can tell you, you cannot bring anything from the Quran that says that

Why do you believe in Judaism? Why do you believe in Moses being a prophet?

because of Masoroh

clarify more please

and because Allah revealed himself to not only Mosha Rabbeinu

@DhoweedYaAgov islam as it is now, is completed, but Islam is not new, it is not something that suddenly appeared way after judaism

but to all the Jews and Non Jews that were present there at the base of Har Sinai

@DhoweedYaAgov, can you please mention the names in either Arabic or English versions so that I can understand better?

@AlUmmatمجاهد dont start the semantics game again please

@DhoweedYaAgov I have not, that is what the Quran says

nothing in the Quran does it say that jews are sheep

@owari Allah revealed himself to Nabi Musa and to all the jews and non jews present at the base of mount sinai

and so on

as you said above

if so then provide the proof if what you say is truthful