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2:05 AM
Hello @Alypius welcome to the Islam.SE chatroom
 
Hello. Just looking around. How are things?
 
@Alypius good
:)
 
 
2 hours later…
4:12 AM
sholom
 
@DhoweedYaAgov Wa Alaikum
 
@AlUmmatمجاهد you know what i wanted to know? the history of the followers of mohammed
and some history of mohammed himself and his family friends wives cousins whatever he had
uncle and journeys to other arabs who were christians/pagans and his encounters with jews and sabaetans
The Sabaeans or Sabeans ( ) were an ancient people speaking an Old South Arabian language who lived in what is today Yemen, in the south west of the Arabian Peninsula. Some scholars suggest a link between the Sabaeans and the Biblical land of Sheba, and would dismiss any link or confusion with the Sabians. History The ancient Sabaean Kingdom established power in the early 1st millennium BC. It was conquered, in the 1st century BC, by the Ḥimyarites. After the disintegration of the first Himyarite Kingdom of the Kings of Saba' and Dhū Raydān, the Middle Sabaean Kingdom reappeared i...
sorry these people
The Sabians () of Middle Eastern tradition are a variety of monotheistic: Gnostic (Mandeans), Hermetic (Harranian) as well as Abrahamic religions mentioned three times in the Quran with the people of the Book, "the Jews, the Sabians, and the Christians." In the hadith, they are described merely as converts to Islam, but interest in the identity and history of the group increased over time, and discussions and investigations about the Sabians begin to appear in later Islamic literature. In the Quran The Qur'an mentions briefly the Sabians in three places and the Hadith provide additional d...
 
@DhoweedYaAgov His father died before He was born, His Mother died when He was six, His grandfather died when He was nine. His uncle Abu Taalib took care of Him from then and even time after He received revelation. He received Wahi/revelation when He was 40. When the first revelations came He was very frightened and gone home shaken, when he got there He asked to be covered, He told His wife the story, and She took Him to Waraqa the son of her uncle, who was a learned man, and was knowledgable
in greek
He told the Prophet that Jibreel was the one who also cam down to Musa, and others. A few days after this He died
 
Mani (in Middle Persian Māni and Syriac Mānī, Greek , Latin '; also , Latin ', from Syriac Mānī ḥayyā "Living Mani", ), of Iranian origin, was the prophet and the founder of Manichaeism, a gnostic religion of Late Antiquity which was once widespread but is now extinct. Mani was born in or near Seleucia-Ctesiphon in Parthian Babylonia (Iraq), at the time still part of the Parthian Empire. Six of his major works were written in Syriac Aramaic and the seventh, dedicated to the king of the empire, Shapur I, was written in Middle Persian. He died in Gundeshapur, under the Sassanid Empire. ...
this is one reason why christians became pagans
putting pagan beliefs in their religion
@AlUmmatمجاهد was her uncle's son christian
 
@DhoweedYaAgov It is written in Seerah books that He and His uncle once gone to shaam for trade, and there was a man there (a christian if I recall correctly) who recognized who the Prophet was and warned His uncle, and told them to go back
@DhoweedYaAgov yes
 
4:26 AM
@AlUmmatمجاهد what do you mean go back?
@AlUmmatمجاهد why was he christian
Judaizers is predominantly a Christian term, derived from the Greek verb ioudaïzō (ἰουδαΐζω "live according to Jewish customs", see ioudaioi). This term is most widely known from the single use in the Greek New Testament (Galatians 2:14) where Paul publicly challenges Peter for compelling Gentile believers to "judaize", also known as the Incident at Antioch. According to the Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions (1977) this term includes groups such as Jewish Christians, Quartodecimans, Ethiopian Christians, descendants of English Puritanism such as the Seventh-day Adventist Chur...
 
@DhoweedYaAgov "go back from where you came from" in other words Makkah
 
oh
in christian belief, there are 2 christians(followers of isa) jews and non jews
jewish christians and non jewish christians
@AlUmmatمجاهد what bout sofiyyah?
she was jewish
 
@DhoweedYaAgov she was a decedent of Haroon (peace be upon Him) the brother of Musa (peace be upon Him)
what about her?
 
@AlUmmatمجاهد yes i know, mohammeds wives were making fun of her because she was jewish and she went to mohammed to ask for help, and mohammed said that you are a daughter of Aharon therefore you are much higher than them combined
 
@DhoweedYaAgov Did He say that? show me the proof?
"therefore you are much higher than them combined"
@DhoweedYaAgov do you want to know what He actually said?
 
4:35 AM
im trying to find the hadeeth
idk where it is its been along time
i think thats what he said if not correct me
 
it is authentic (if I am not mistaken)
translation: “Verily, you are the daughter of a Prophet, your uncle was also a Prophet, and you are the wife of a Prophet, so what does she have over you to boast about?”
that isn't the whole hadith
just part of it
but it shall be sufficient
He did not say
"therefore you are much higher than them combined"
unless of course there is authentic proof which can be provided to support your statement
which I am open to
 
yes taht
i remember that part
 
Alhamdulillah
 
i assumed saying that his other wives has nothing to boast about means she is bigger than them
Abu Dawud vol.3 no.4588 p.1293
Fighting with Jews and Christians carries more reward than fighting others. Abu Dawud vol.2 no.2482 footnote 1831 p.688
<_<
Mohammed led a surprise attack on the Banu al-Mustaliq tribe while they were inattentive and their cattle were drinking water." Abu Dawud vol.2 no.227 p.727-728
:(
Mohammed expelled every Jew living in Medina. Abu Dawud vol.2 no.2999 p.802.
why did he do this?
Force Jews and Christians to walk on the narrowest part of the road. Abu Dawud vol.3 no.5186 p.1436 why?
are these real hadeeths?
muslimhope.com/AbuDawud.htm is this website reliable?
 
one moment, I checking these Ahadith
 
4:46 AM
Alleged miracle of Mohammed telling which grave to dig up to get treasure. Also, it is OK for Muslims to dig up the graves of non-Muslims if they will get some benefit by it. Abu Dawud vol.2 no.3082 and footnote 2556 p.878
check this one too
show which website you are using i want to check too
 
ok, please stop giving Hadith, I have not been able to find the first one yet :)
 
@DhoweedYaAgov sunnah.com
 
show me which website you using
i dont know where to look :(
 
also you can download the books from alalbany.net (in Arabic) with their authenticities along with them
@DhoweedYaAgov Most of the Hadith you quoted said "Abi Dawood", here sunnah.com/abudawud
 
4:49 AM
yea i am on that page
idk which books to click
 
@DhoweedYaAgov I'll look for the Hadiths, and their authenticities and try to give you the link
 
any luck?
 
@DhoweedYaAgov As for that Hadith, it is inauthentic sunnah.com/abudawud/15/12
@DhoweedYaAgov yes, but just note that belief in luck is shirk, have you heard of the greek goddess of Good and bad luck?
 
there is no word in hebrew for luck
because there is no such thing as luck
everything is from HaShem
@AlUmmatمجاهد what is unauthenthic?
 
@DhoweedYaAgov that is what I said, just a note/warning because in English there is such a thing as luck
 
5:01 AM
i was just using an english term
if i was using a religious term it wouldnt be luck
judaism doesnt believe in luck
 
ok never mind I just meant it as a note of warning
2 mins ago, by Al Ummat مجاهد
@DhoweedYaAgov As for that Hadith, it is inauthentic http://sunnah.com/abudawud/15/12
 
i dont think thats the hadeeth i quoted
Fighting with Jews and Christians carries more reward than fighting others. Abu Dawud vol.2 no.2482 footnote 1831 p.688
you referring to that?
 
@DhoweedYaAgov yes (2482 )
 
where on that site it shows the grading of the hadeeth
Grade: Da'if (Al-Albani) ?
 
@DhoweedYaAgov yes, it means weak, in other words inauthentic
 
5:05 AM
doesnt al albani mean the albanian?
 
@DhoweedYaAgov yes, the sheiks full name is Muhammad Nasiruddeen Al Albany
 
what is he saying?
that it is not authenthic?
 
@DhoweedYaAgov it is Da'eef, in other words yes not authentic
 
but he is saying its not authentic? the albanian? do people agree with what he says or what?
 
@DhoweedYaAgov He is a scholar of Hadith, it doesn't matter who or what He is, as long as He follows the procedure in checking the Hadith, search "Ilm Al Rijal"
 
5:09 AM
right it doesnt matter to me who he is. im asking if he is counted in the muslim word as a guide to authenticated hadiths. maybe he is just some random joe shmoe on the internet saying authentic and none authentic. that is why i asked who he was
 
Biographical evaluation, (), literally: "knowledge of men", refers to a discipline of Islamic religious studies within hadith terminology in which the narrators of hadith are evaluated. Its goal is to distinguish authentic hadith from hadith unacceptable in establishing sanctioned religious knowledge or practice. `Ilm ar-rijal is synonymous with what is commonly referred to as al-jarḥ wa al-taʻdīl (discrediting and accrediting) – the criticism and declared acceptance of hadith narrators. Significance In his Introduction to the Science of Hadith, Ibn al-Salah, a renowned hadith special...
@DhoweedYaAgov He is one of the modern scholars of Hadith, whom many trusted, He is dead now
 
ok
what bout other hadeeths
also is abu dawud reliable?
 
@DhoweedYaAgov There are in His sunan those hadith which are reliable and those which aren't, Al Albany gone through all four sunan ( and others) and checked the Ahadeeth in them, and graded them accordingly
@DhoweedYaAgov Abu Dawood is man by the way
 
i know he is a man
why would he quote fake hadeeth
mhmmm
 
@DhoweedYaAgov That Hadith is authentic, oh and read the whole Hadith, sunnah.com/abudawud/15/157
 
5:20 AM
attacked Banu Al Mustaliq
werent they jews?
 
read the whole Hadith
@DhoweedYaAgov yes
 
i did read it
Ibn ‘Awn said “I wrote to Nafi’ asking him about summoning the polytheists (to Islam) at the time of fighting. So, he wrote to me “This was in the early days of Islam. The Prophet of Allaah(sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) attacked Banu Al Mustaliq while they were inattentive and their cattle were drinking water.
it says they were polytheist
i dont get that part bout the polytheist
the followers of mohammed went to war with polytheists?
The Banu Mustaliq is an Arab tribe.
not jewish tribe
The Banu Mustaliq is an Arab tribe. The tribe is a sub-clan of the Banu Khuza'a, descended from Azdi Qahtani. They occupied the territory of Qadid on the Red Sea shore between Jeddah and Rabigh. History The Banu al Mustaliq, allied to the Quraish of Mecca, were the subject to a pre-emptive attack by Muhammad in the month of Sha'ban of the year 626 (5 AH). Muhammad had received news that the tribe was gathering together against the Muslims under the leadership of al-Harith ibn Abi Dirar. The Muslim force met the Banu Mustaliq in battle at a watering place called al-Muraysi‘ and defeated t...
im going to bed man
theres to many tribes for me to keep up with
when reading the history
lailoh tov
tesbah ala kayr
 
5:38 AM
@DhoweedYaAgov That Hadith can be Found in Saheeh Muslim sunnah.com/urn/253890 , and it doesn't mean to push them or hurt them, or push them to the side into a hole, or so that they hit a wall, no this is injustice on the one doing this because we aren't to hurt anyone without reason
@DhoweedYaAgov Good night :)
the Hadith as you may notice, is inauthentic
 
Ali
6:26 AM
@DhoweedYaAgov you said that you are a Muslim but your mi.yodeya team is saying they are not even in its semantics ?
in V'dibarta Bam, 11 hours ago, by Monica Cellio
@DhoweedYaAgov I object to you calling Jews, including me, "muslims" or "Muslims", because that word has a very specific meaning in the English language and today's culture and it does not apply. Call yourself whatever you like, but please leave the rest of us out of it.
thanks @TRiG for pointing out the correct term "etymological fallacy" and this is what i wanted to convey : An etymological fallacy becomes possible when a word has changed its meaning over time. Such changes can include a shift in scope (narrowing or widening of meanings) or of connotation (amelioration or pejoration).
So what i wanted to convey is that the word Muslim is a concept evolved into a ternm whose meaning has never changed in time it always refered to people who submitted to ALLAH swt which includes past prophets and its muslim followers
Infact using the words "Judaism" \ "Christianity" , "hinduism" etc are etymological fallacies as we have seen that the meanings of these words changed throughout history , e.g incase of hinduism it passed thorough many phases like Shaivism, Vaishnavism , Śrauta , jainism and still it is open to evolution , infact it is called an open source religion, it seems innovation in religion are encouraged in hindu philosophy
@AlUmmatمجاهد assalamalaikum
 
@Ali Wa Alaikum salam
 
Ali
6:43 AM
considering the Jewish example , jews were never called jews even in the time of Moses and hence to coin up a term "jew" and to use it to refer the followers of Moses is an etymological fallacy
@DhoweedYaAgov is absolutely correct , to avoid fallacies we should use the word "Muslim" for it represents the actual meaning which has NOT CHANGED since time immemorial
The concept of "Muslim" was always there and those who really submit to God call themselves as Muslims. and @DhoweedYaAgov is a muslim by concept too if he agrees., but then he should be consistent about it and always use the term for himself. but some mi.yodeya members dont want to be called as Muslims even by concept and hence they are not Muslims in any sense.
ANYWAYS those who really submit and love God would like to be called as Muslims as it has no racial , tribal connotation
in V'dibarta Bam, 11 hours ago, by DhoweedYaAgov
the word muslim is older than the religion of islam
 
 
1 hour later…
8:26 AM
@AlUmmatمجاهد agreed, and their religion was also for a certain time and people, Jesus peace be upon him removed some of the prohibitions and etc. However, this is one reason not the whole reason.
@TRiG, only eager to know your idea about this, to us words are more than a combination of alphabets, we can always ask why tables are called tables and not chairs and vice versa, that is, names are more than mere symbols, so we have the science of names, as is accounted for in Quran that Adam peace be upon him had it and he taught some of it to the angels. The words to us can carry quite deep meanings,
once a wise man says something and everyone would understand each to the level that his knowledge allows him, and some would completely misunderstand the message. It is quite a relevant question to ask why the followers of the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his household are specifically said to be Muslims while the followers of Jesus the Christ are called Christians
 
Ali
@owari assalaamlaikum
 
Can you find a root for that in English why people use it for a specific group? If the majority of people who are usually of low level knowledge about terminologies and etc use a word for something can it be a reason that the word is specifically for that target.
@Ali و علیکم السلام
 
Ali
can you bring here some untranslated works on interaction of Imam Jafar with Jews
The translated works are already availaible
 
do you know a source for that? I remember some weeks ago I read a Hadeeth saying everyone from Adam to us peace be upon him were Muslim if they were following the rules set to them by Allah
 
Ali
I read many jews had embraced Islam getting convinced
by Jafar Sadik
 
8:39 AM
Let me see the book احتجاج
 
Ali
I can only find narrations from Musa Kazim
 
Specifically the debate from Imam Redha peace be upon him should suffice, doesn't it?
 
Ali
and that helped me in asking questions on J.SE i asked 65+ questions there , i just cant believe it
 
@Ali الحمد لله
The book is a software in windows and I am living in Linux, so waiting for Virtual Box to run Windows for me
 
Ali
NO there are some untranslated works attributed to Imam Jafar sadik
and one important thing i saw in their arguments was they did not accuse the Jews of textual corruption
 
8:45 AM
@Ali Yes they usually discuss with them by the scripture in their hand, otherwise the people of the book will never accept that their book are corrupted, they will accept only reasons based on the books they have in the form they have access to it, and it's quite natural I think
 
9:08 AM
@Ali, this is one but I am still searching
وَ مِنْهَا: أَنَّ قَوْماً مِنَ الْيَهُودِ قَالُوا لِلصَّادِقِ ع أَيُّ مُعْجِزٍ يَدُلُّ عَلَى نُبُوَّةِ مُحَمَّدٍ قَالَ كِتَابُهُ الْمُهَيْمِنُ الْبَاهِرُ لِعُقُولِ النَّاظِرِينَ مَعَ مَا أُعْطِيَ مِنَ الْحَلَالِ وَ الْحَرَامِ وَ غَيْرِهِمَا مِمَّا لَوْ ذَكَرْنَاهُ لَطَالَتْ فَقَالَ الْيَهُودُ وَ كَيْفَ لَنَا بِأَنْ نَعْلَمَ أَنَّ هَذَا كَمَا وَصَفْتَ فَقَالَ لَهُمْ مُوسَى بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ ع وَ هُوَ صَبِيٌّ وَ كَانَ حَاضِراً وَ كَيْفَ لَنَا بِأَنْ نَعْلَمَ مَا تَذْكُرُونَ مِنْ آيَاتِ مُوسَى أَنَّهَا عَلَى مَا تَصِفُونَ قَالُوا عَلِمْنَا ذَلِكَ بِنَقْلِ الصَّادِقِينَ قَالَ لَهُمْ مُوسَى بْنُ جَع
                    الخرائج و الجرائح، ج‏1، ص: 112
This maybe helpful for you that are trying to discuss with the people of the book:
قَالَ أَبُو مُحَمَّدٍ الْحَسَنُ بْنُ عَلِيٍّ الْعَسْكَرِيُّ ع ذُكِرَ عِنْدَ الصَّادِقِ ع الْجِدَالُ فِي الدِّينِ وَ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص وَ الْأَئِمَّةَ ع قَدْ نَهَوْا عَنْهُ فَقَالَ الصَّادِقُ ع لَمْ يُنْهَ عَنْهُ مُطْلَقاً وَ لَكِنَّهُ نُهِيَ عَنِ الْجِدَالِ بِغَيْرِ الَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ أَ مَا تَسْمَعُونَ اللَّهَ يَقُولُ- وَ لا تُجادِلُوا أَهْلَ الْكِتابِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ «1»
وَ قَوْلَهُ ادْعُ إِلى‏ سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَ الْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ وَ جادِلْهُمْ بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ «2» فَالْجِدَالُ بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ قَدْ قَرَنَهُ الْعُلَمَاءُ بِالدِّينِ وَ الْجِدَالُ بِغَيْرِ الَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ مُحَرَّمٌ حَرَّمَهُ اللَّهُ عَلَى شِيعَتِنَا وَ كَيْفَ يُحَرِّمُ اللَّهُ الْجِدَالَ جُمْلَةً وَ هُوَ يَقُولُ-
وَ قالُوا لَنْ يَدْخُلَ الْجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَنْ كانَ هُوداً أَوْ نَصارى‏ «3» وَ قَالَ اللَّهُ تَعَالَى تِلْكَ أَمانِيُّهُمْ قُلْ هاتُوا بُرْهانَكُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ صادِقِينَ «3» فَجَعَلَ اللَّهُ عِلْمَ الصِّدْقِ وَ الْإِيمَانَ بِالْبُرْهَانِ وَ هَلْ يُؤْتَى بِبُرْهَانٍ إِلَّا بِالْجِدَالِ بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ قِيلَ يَا ابْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ فَمَا الْجِدَالُ بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ وَ بِالَّتِي لَيْسَتْ بِأَحْسَنَ؟
... الإحتجاج على أهل اللجاج (للطبرسي)، ج‏1، ص: 21
 
@owari "يَا ابْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ"? the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon Him) did not have any live sons
 
Ali
9:25 AM
I donno arabic
My wife does but she is busy :)
 
@AlUmmatمجاهد All the Imams except for Imam Ali are sons of the holy prophet in the sense that Jesus is called in quran to be son of Mary and آل عمران
@Ali I'm still searching, but you told me untranslated, didn't you?
 
@owari Jesus is called the son of Mary because He is her son and she is his mother
 
Ali
untranslated because i cant understand
arabic
i want you to translate them and post it
 
@Ali I don't understand?
So by untranslated you mean translated into English?
 
Ali
ya untranlated works not easily availaible to be translated and posted here
 
9:29 AM
@Ali untranslated = not translated
 
Ali
ya
kitab dawla
kitab al din al dawla
 
@Ali Is this the name of the book that you know the source exist? Can you bring here the Arabic text, I didn;t find it among my books
 
Ali
no i dont have the above book
and its most probably non Imami book
the arabic you quoted before was attributed to UImam Jafar sadik?
 
9:45 AM
@Ali yes.
@Ali let me search a little more but anyway I do not have all the Shia books, only some of them ;)
 
Ali
Please share and sign this petition if you have Imaan
http://www.change.org/en-IN/petitions/to-muslim-lawboards-and-wakf-stop-constructing-buildings-over-graves-of-pious-people-dismantle-it-islam-forbids-it
 
@Ali seemingly you will never understand the points I put forward to you from Quran and Ahdeeth, and our discussion about that is now a forbidden جدال so I avoid to discuss about it with you. Allah will judge between us.
Also I searched all the books that I have with no special result, the best that I could find was Imam Ridha's debate with them. Sorry for that :)
I should leave for prayer, was-salam
 
10:00 AM
@owari Wa Alaikum salam
 
Ali
ok
thanks for that , but do share it here if u find them
@AlUmmatمجاهد , can you help me find errors in :
http://www.change.org/en-IN/petitions/to-muslim-lawboards-and-wakf-stop-constructing-buildings-over-graves-of-pious-people-dismantle-it-islam-forbids-it
And i was searching for some english muftis to fine tune this petiton according to Islamic jurisprudence
 
10:16 AM
@Ali I don't really see anything that needs to be fixed
I am leaving now, See you guys later Insha'Allah
Asalam Alaikum
 
 
4 hours later…
2:46 PM
in V'dibarta Bam, 43 mins ago, by Monica Cellio
@Ali, I told you not to invite me into other sites' chat rooms after you did it to me in Islam twice. Just for the record, Christianity's chat room also counts as another site's chat room. Stop it.
in V'dibarta Bam, 56 mins ago, by Isaac Moses
@Ali, I believe you were asked to stop inviting people from here out of the blue to join Islam chat.
@Ali "Ali has now been suspended from chat for a month. For repeated attempts to draw moderators from other sites into discussions without context and against repeated warnings not to."
@Ali Please refrain from abusing the site's comment privileges to communicate with me on this matter; I am not the one who suspended you, nor is it true that you were "never given any reasons".
 
3:42 PM
@ali she didn't get the point being made. Therefore she objected.
Also ignorance and or arrogance
Don't take things out if context and then use it as a source. All you do is make problems like a snake
@goldpseudo if you are banned from one chat you are banned from all?
 
@DhoweedYaAgov pretty much. i think the Trilogy sites are on their own network, so a suspension here wouldn't affect them.
but if you're suspended from any .SE chatroom, you're suspended from all of them.
 
Whtats the trilogy sites?
 
Stack Overflow, Server Fault and Super User.
it might just be Stack Overflow itself that's on it's own chat network. not sure.
 
@owari can you translate the jewish Muslim debates for me? I want to listen or read it if possible
 
0
Q: What is the islamic definition of music?

user3550Based on answers from questions like (Music in Islam?), it seems that music is haraam. My question is, has Islam defined for muslims what music is? For example, is music: singing without musical notes from musical instruments? singing with musical notes from musical instruments? musical notes...

 
 
6 hours later…
9:17 PM
@DhoweedYaAgov I do not have enough time to translate all of it but this is a part of the debate between Imam Ridha peace be upon him and some great scholars of Judaism, Christianity, Zoroasterian and etc., the part which contains the debate between Imam and the Jew scholar named رأس الجالوت:
فَالْتَفَتَ الرِّضَا ع إِلَى رَأْسِ الْجَالُوتِ فَقَالَ لَهُ تَسْأَلُنِي أَوْ أَسْأَلُكَ؟ قَالَ بَلْ أَسْأَلُكَ وَ لَسْتُ أَقْبَلُ مِنْكَ حُجَّةً إِلَّا مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ أَوْ مِنَ الْإِنْجِيلِ أَوْ مِنْ زَبُورِ دَاوُدَ أَوْ فِي صُحُفِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَ مُوسَى قَالَ الرِّضَا ع لَا تَقْبَلْ مِنِّي حُجَّةً إِلَّا بِمَا تَنْطِقُ بِهِ التَّوْرَاةُ عَلَى لِسَانِ مُوسَى بْنِ عِمْرَانَ ع وَ الْإِنْجِيلُ عَلَى لِسَانِ عِيسَى بْنِ مَرْيَمَ ع وَ الزَّبُورُ عَلَى لِسَانِ دَاوُدَ ع قَالَ رَأْسُ الْجَالُوتِ مِنْ أَيْنَ تُثْبِتُ نُبُوَّةَ مُحَمَّدٍ؟ قَالَ الرِّضَا ع شَهِدَ بِنُبُوَّتِهِ مُوسَى بْنُ عِمْرَا
the debate had another part also in which Imam refer to Torah about the prophet who make some people to come back to life after being death, during the debate with the Christian scholar, so that to say Jesus peace be upon him was not the first and only one who did such a thing.
You cab translate this rather long text with a translator, but if you find parts of it mistranslated then GodWilling I or others will translate them for you. Godspeed
@Caleb, i remember once I said something about the history of bible and you rejected that, if my memory can help me. What I said is a part of the Hadeeth another part of which is quoted above, you can find it, if you liked, in the same book, albeit in Arabic. That bible was lost, four apostles invited people to church on Sundays (so the reason for Christian holiday being Sunday) to read bible for them, so the four bible having discrepancies and etc
 
@owari That's a pretty fuzzy account, and doesn't jive with either Christian or secular history or the manuscript evidence we have in hand today.
Can I ask what the source of that Hadeeth is and when/were it came out?
 
@owari tahnks for the text but i dont know what im looking at ;(
 
@Umarbin Wa Alaikum salam
"تَحِيَّتُہُمۡ فِيہَا سَلَـٰمٌ"
"Their greeting therein will be: "Peace!"
 
@AlUmmatمجاهد can you translate that for me?
 
9:55 PM
no
the arabic before that
 
how do i quote someone?
 
@DhoweedYaAgov what do yo mean?
 
39 mins ago, by owari
فَالْتَفَتَ الرِّضَا ع إِلَى رَأْسِ الْجَالُوتِ فَقَالَ لَهُ تَسْأَلُنِي أَوْ أَسْأَلُكَ؟ قَالَ بَلْ أَسْأَلُكَ وَ لَسْتُ أَقْبَلُ مِنْكَ حُجَّةً إِلَّا مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ أَوْ مِنَ الْإِنْجِيلِ أَوْ مِنْ زَبُورِ دَاوُدَ أَوْ فِي صُحُفِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَ مُوسَى قَالَ الرِّضَا ع لَا تَقْبَلْ مِنِّي حُجَّةً إِلَّا بِمَا تَنْطِقُ بِهِ التَّوْرَاةُ عَلَى لِسَانِ مُوسَى بْنِ عِمْرَانَ ع وَ الْإِنْجِيلُ عَلَى لِسَانِ عِيسَى بْنِ مَرْيَمَ ع وَ الزَّبُورُ عَلَى لِسَانِ دَاوُدَ ع قَالَ رَأْسُ الْجَالُوتِ مِنْ أَيْنَ تُثْبِتُ نُبُوَّةَ مُحَمَّدٍ؟ قَالَ الرِّضَا ع شَهِدَ بِنُبُوَّتِهِ مُوسَى بْنُ عِمْرَا
the entire text not just that
 
@Caleb I wrote that Hadeeth from the book احتجاج of Tabarsi written about the 6th Hijri Century, about 8 centuries before. But if I am not wrong the Hadeeth is also available in the book عیون اخبار الرضا written by Sheikh Saduq written about the 4th Hijri Century.
@DhoweedYaAgov In short, رآس الجالوت asked imam to prove for him the prophethood of the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him and his household only through the scriptures that he also believe in and Imam brought to him reasons from Torah of Moses peace be upon him, geospel of Jesus peace be upon him, and Zabur of David peace be upon him. Then Imam asked the Jew scholar why he doesn't believe in the prophethood of Jesus after Moses, peace be upon them, he answered becasuse we are not sure
 
10:10 PM
@DhoweedYaAgov So Ridda turned to the head of Jaloot and said: "I ask or you?" he replied: "I will ask, and I will not accept anything from you unless it is from the Tourat or the Injeel or the Zaboor, or from the Books of Ibraheem and Musa. Ridda said: Then do not accept from me but the Tourat on the tongue of Musa Bin Imran and the injeel on the tongue of Issa Bn Maryyam and the zaboor on the tongue. The head of the jaloot from where does Muhammad's prophet be proved?
 
@owari what proof that the guy bring from the Torah about mohammed?
 
what is accounted to be done by him has been really done by him as they have not witnessed them by their eyes, then Imam asked if they have witnessed the miracles of Moses peace be upon him, and after some statements conclude in the same way they believe in Moses peace be upon him and his previous prophets they should also believe in Jesus and Muhammad peace be upon them
 
@owari what proof does the guy bring from the Torah about isa?
 
@DhoweedYaAgov that was just a translation of a quarter of it, it is very long, and just doing what I did is very tiring, to be an effective translator one must be knowledgeable in both languages, I am only knowledgeable in my language, Arabic
 
@AlUmmatمجاهد ty for what you did
you dont have to do it if you dont want
 
10:19 PM
@DhoweedYaAgov for example consider this: مُوسَى أَوْصَى بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ فَقَالَ لَهُمْ إِنَّهُ سَيَأْتِيكُمْ نَبِيٌّ مِنْ إِخْوَانِكُمْ فِيهِ فَصَدِّقُوا وَ مِنْهُ فَاسْمَعُوا which means Moses advised the Israelite that will come to you a prophet from among your brothers (or cousins in another Hadeeth if my memory can help) so believe in him and hear to him. then Imam says have the sons of Israel have any cousin except the sons of Ismael, who was the only brother of Ishaq (Issac)
Also see this part: فَقَالَ لَهُ الرِّضَا ع هَلْ تُنْكِرُونَ التَّوْرَاةَ تَقُولُ لَكُمْ جَاءَ النُّورُ مِنْ قِبَلِ طُورِ سَيْنَاءَ؟ وَ أَضَاءَ لِلنَّاسِ مِنْ جَبَلِ سَاعِيرَ وَ اسْتَعْلَنَ عَلَيْنَا مِنْ جَبَلِ فَارَانَ قَالَ رَأْسُ الْجَالُوتِ أَعْرِفُ هَذِهِ الْكَلِمَاتِ وَ مَا أَعْرِفُ تَفْسِيرَهَا قَالَ الرِّضَا ع أَنَا أُخْبِرُكَ بِهِ أَمَّا قَوْلُهُ جَاءَ النُّورُ مِنْ قِبَلِ طُورِ سَيْنَاءَ فَذَلِكَ وَحْيُ اللَّهِ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى الَّذِي أَنْزَلَهُ عَلَى مُوسَى عَلَى جَبَلِ طُورِ سَيْنَاءَ وَ أَمَّا قَوْلُهُ وَ أَضَاءَ الناس [لِلنَّاسِ‏] فِي جَبَلِ سَاعِيرَ فَهُوَ الْجَبَلُ ال
 
watch that
 
which says Imam asked the scholar if he has seen in Torah that the light came from around Sina, then from the mountain of ساعیر, then it appeared from Faraan? He answered yes but didn't know its interpretation. So Imam answered the light from Sina was the inspiration to Moses, from ساعیر was inspiration to Jesus and from Faran (a mountain near Mecca) was to Muhammad peace be upon them all
 
disprove you
 
them Imam said that Ash'ya the prophet stated that he saw two person one over a donkey and another over a camel that the ground is enlightened for them, then Imam explained to him that the one riding the donkey is Jesus and the one riding the camel is Muhammad peace be upon them.
 
whos ashya
 
10:29 PM
then Torah says that Allah brings to us the statement from Faran and the skies is filled with worshipping of Ahmad and his people ... and brings a new book after destruction of Beyt Muqaddas.
 
@owari where does the Torah say taht?
 
Imam narrated this last statement from Hayaquq the prophet peace be upon him. Then Imam narrates from David peace be upon him that Allah will bring to prophethood one who would raise a new set of rule, so that Jesus cannot be the one as he stock to the rules of Moses modified and not a new sets of rules.
@DhoweedYaAgov I have no good access to youtube, can you say in short what's the film talking about?
 
i cant i need to start preparing to head out to pray
 
Also I have not read the Torah yet, but it is very possible that if, according to Islam the previous books have been corrupted till 1400 years before, they can also be continued to be corrupted in these 14 centuries as well, so that the reasoning that could work for the people of book 14 centuries before may not work for the present
@DhoweedYaAgov Are you Muslim or a Jew?
 
@owari where does it say in quran that the torah is corrupted? because ali gave me a link saying muslims dont believe it was corrupted
@owari ani yahudi
 
10:36 PM
@DhoweedYaAgov No we believe the books are modified when Quran says the Jewish people go after their scholars blindly and so they will be punished somewhat equally.
or when Quran says they changed the rules of god, or hide some parts and only state in public some parts of it
 
@owari ali said that verse means the jewish scholars changed the meanings of the words not the actually words in the Torah
 
@owari that is a totally different and has nothing to do with whether the books are corrupted or not
 
@DhoweedYaAgov I am not a scholar but my personal idea is that he is wrong
@AlUmmatمجاهد a book has some parts of it removed is not corrupted?
that may cause something which is forbidden to be allowed
 
@owari the quran says the jewish scholars made law which were fobidden permitted and permitted forbidden
not by taking away pages of the torah
but by misinterpreting the words
chas washolom
 
Let me seek for the Hadeeth addressing this in some better details and I will come back GodWilling
 
10:39 PM
@owari See this quran.com/4/46 and this quran.com/2/75
@owari Them worshiping their priests and rabbis because they follow them blindly has nothing directly to do with whether the Books are corrupted or not, perhaps I am wrong
 
ok i need to go
time to pray
 
@AlUmmatمجاهد یحرفون isn't making deviation, so making something corrupted? The message is corrupted you should agree at leaston this point don't you?
 
ill see you guys tommorow night maybe
 
@DhoweedYaAgov ok Insha'Allah
 
@DhoweedYaAgov God willing
 
10:44 PM
@owari يحرفون does not mean deviation, it means to distort words
" Among /من الذين the Jews are those who distort words from their [proper] usages and say, "We hear and disobey" and "Hear but be not heard" and "Ra'ina," twisting their tongues and defaming the religion. And if they had said [instead], "We hear and obey" and "Wait for us [to understand]," it would have been better for them and more suitable. But Allah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few."
 
@AlUmmatمجاهد yes I know and that distortion will cause in a deviation in meaning, or I am missing a point?
 
"Do you covet [the hope, O believers], that they would believe for you while a party of them used to hear the words of Allah and then distort the Torah after they had understood it while they were knowing?"
@owari yes it will cause deviation
"Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient."
I apologize if I am unclear
 
@AlUmmatمجاهد No you are clear.
I found this Hadeeth about Jews following their scholars: Sorry for it being long:
فَقَالَ رَجُلٌ لِلصَّادِقِ ع: فَإِذَا كَانَ هَؤُلَاءِ الْعَوَامُّ مِنَ الْيَهُودِ لَا يَعْرِفُونَ الْكِتَابَ إِلَّا بِمَا يَسْمَعُونَهُ مِنْ عُلَمَائِهِمْ- لَا سَبِيلَ لَهُمْ إِلَى غَيْرِهِ، فَكَيْفَ ذَمَّهُمْ بِتَقْلِيدِهِمْ وَ الْقَبُولِ مِنْ عُلَمَائِهِمْ وَ هَلْ عَوَامُّ الْيَهُودِ إِلَّا كَعَوَامِّنَا يُقَلِّدُونَ عُلَمَاءَهُمْ فَإِنْ لَمْ يَجُزْ لِأُولَئِكَ الْقَبُولُ مِنْ عُلَمَائِهِمْ، لَمْ يَجُزْ لِهَؤُلَاءِ الْقَبُولُ مِنْ عُلَمَائِهِمْ.
فَقَالَ ع: بَيْنَ عَوَامِّنَا وَ عُلَمَائِنَا وَ بَيْنَ عَوَامِّ الْيَهُودِ وَ عُلَمَائِهِمْ فَرْقٌ مِنْ جِهَةٍ وَ تَسْوِيَةٌ مِنْ جِهَةٍ، أَمَّا
 
@owari no need to apologize
@owari pretty interesting points
@owari I observe that half of the Ahadeeth you quote aren't even from the Prophet himself
is there any Shia Hadith which is from the Prophet himself?
 
11:03 PM
@AlUmmatمجاهد yes, we have lots of Ahadeeth from the holy prophet peace be upon him and his household but we also believe after him we had about a century that narrating Hadeeth from the holy prophet was forbidden and many Ahadeeth was fabricated during that perios until if I am right Umar ibn Abdul Aziz removed the law, then there was a mixture of true and false Ahadeeth until our Imams set their classes and taught the Muslims
about the true spirit of Islam which was to be ignored otherwise, so that we quote their Ahadeeth and those Ahadeeth of the holy prophet which has been approved by them and etc.
@AlUmmatمجاهد, I am still searching but meanwhile I remembered that in the same Hadeeth from Imam Ridha peace be upon him he asked جاثلیق about what the four gospels say about Jesus who he was, and then جاثلیق concluded that the writers (or some of them, I can't remember) have lied about Jesus peace be upon him who he was.
Thus to conclude gospels have been corrupted completely.
 
@owari Ahadeeth wern't forbidden from being narrated? and as for Umar bin Abdul Aziz He ordered the scholars of the time to gather Hadith into certain books, but it is a common misconception that the Hadith of the Prophet was not written until Ummar bin abdul Aziz time, about a 100 years later, but as I mentioned this is a misconception and a false claim, the Ahadeeth of the Prophet were written down even in the time of the Prophet and passed down from teacher to student and so on
 
Also mention that Turah was so short compared to what it is now, it contains stories about events happening centuries after Moses so that no one can claim the book has been left intact, the scholars have added to the book, including the book of Ester if I am not wrong.
 
@owari I see
 
what stories after Moses are in the Torah?
 
@AlUmmatمجاهد that's the point we disagree about ;)
@goldPseudo like the story of اصحاب الکهف if I am not wrong but the famous example is the book of Ester
 
11:14 PM
@owari That's in the Torah?
 
@goldPseudo I have not read Turah, but I think so according to the interpretation of Quran that the Jews told Quraish to ask the holy prophet about them
 
the book of Ester isn't part of the Torah.
It's one of the ketuvim.
the Torah, as it's written in the Bible, ends with the death of Moses and succession of Joshua.
 
@goldPseudo Then that would be my fault.
 
I'd be baffled if the story of اصحاب الکهف was in there, since by common understanding the legend refers to Christians.
 
11:47 PM
@goldPseudo I read the text again, it doesn't say the Turah had that stpry but the scholars were Jews:
كان سَبب نزول سورة الكهف انّ قريشاً بعثوا ثلاثة نفر الى نَجران النّضر بن الحارث بن كلدة و عُقْبة بن أبي معيط و العاص بن وائل السّهميّ ليتَعلّموا منَ اليهود و النّصارى مسائل يَسئلونها رسول اللَّه صلَّى اللَّه عليه و آله و سلم فخرجوا الى نجران الى علماء اليهود فَسألوهم فقالوا اسألوه عن ثلاث مسائل فان اجابكم فيها عَلى ما عندنا فهو صادق ثمّ سَلوه عن مَسألة واحدة
فان ادّعى‏ علمها فهو كاذب قالوا و ما هذه المسائل قالوا سَلوه عن فتية كانوا في الزّمن الأوّل فخرجوا و غابوا و ناموا كم بقوا في نومهم حتّى انتبهوا و كم كان عَددهم و ايّ شي‏ء كان معَهم من غَيرهم و ما كان قصّتهم و اسْألوه عَن موسى‏ حين امره اللّه عزّ و جَلّ ان يتبع العالم و يتعلّم منه مَن هو و كيف يتبعه و ما كان قصّته مَعه و اسألوه عَن طائف طاف مغربَ الشَمس و مطلعها حتّى بلغَ سدّ يأجوج و مأجُوج مَن هو
و كيفَ كان قصّته ثمّ أملوا عليهم اخبار هذه الثّلاث المسائل و قالوا لهم ان أجابكم بما قد املينا عليكم فهو صادق و ان أخبركم بخلاف ذلك فلا تُصدِّقوه قالوا فما المسألة الرّابعة قالوا سَلوه متى تقومُ السّاعة فان ادّعى علمها فهو كاذب فانّ قيام السّاعة لا يعلمه الّا اللَّه تبارك و تعالى‏ فَرجعوا الى مكَّة فاجتمعوا الى أبي طالب فقالوا يا أبا طالب انّ ابن أخيك يزعم انّ خبر السّماء يأتيه و نحن نسأله عن مسائل فان أجابنا عنها علمنا انّه صادق و ان لم يخبرنا علمنا انّه كاذب‏
However I have read somewhere that it was in Turah, if it is not like Ester that you said it is not considered as a part of Turah
 
i don't recall reading it, but it's been a while since i've read the entire Bible.
there may be a similar legend in the Jewish histories, but as far as I know the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus is very much a Christian legend.
which strongly parallels the story of the Companions of the Cave.
 

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