Passion week discussion katamari - 2016-04-06 (page 1 of 2)

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1:34 AM

@enegue You Analysis Is Appropriate, But Perhaps Wrong: A.) Yes, there is absolutely a distinction between, "From a Start Time UP TO THIS TIME - but Not After" ... distinguished from, "From a Start Time UP TO AND Including This Time"

1:56 AM

@enegue B.) Exodus 12:6 - " עַ֣ד אַרְבָּעָ֥ה עָשָׂ֛ר", guard the lamb "until the 14th"; C.) In Exodus 12:10 - "עַד**־בֹּ֖קֶר**" is translated "Until the Morning"; D.) Exodus 12:10 - עַד־בֹּ֖קֶר בָּאֵ֥שׁ תִּשְׂרֹֽפוּ׃ Until the morning, you shall burn it; E.) In Exodus 12:12 - מֵאָדָ֖ם וְעַ־בְּהֵמָ֑ה From man, and including beasts;

2:16 AM

Elika, guarding the lamb until the 14th means "keep the lamb safe up until the 14th, but ON THE 14th your are to kill it", which Exodus 12:6 says is to be done in the evening hours before it becomes the 15th. It is not as complicated as you are making it.

@enegue I absolutely agree.

@enegue I am just asking if you are "okay" with the fact that the Hebrew Language, the syntax - makes a distinction between "Up TO" ... and "Up to and Including"

@enegue Because - If the syntax here - that you say means, "up until" - and that same syntax is used ... say ... in the Day of Atonement, or the 21st of the feast of unleavened bread ... then, "we could assume that it also means "up until" or "up to, and including", if the same syntax is used" -- Do I understand you correctly?

When you say INCLUDING, what are you including?

@enegue Let me Rephrase: You and I - both agree, the Plain Meaning of the Text is what the Christians - at that time, would have relied upon;

@enegue BUT, Do We Agree on This? That a Plain Meaning can be deduced - following consistent rules of grammar - and syntax; or maybe even when the context explicitly clarifies itself ...

@enegue "Hey, its Bob, I'm on vacation until the 3rd" <- Is Bob getting home on the 3rd or is the 3rd Bob's last day of vacation? That's the distinction we're trying to discern.

@enegue "Up to" ... and "Up to and Including" - You say that these phrases have very different meanings, (I agree); And so - it is expected that the text, the grammar, the syntax - is very clear which one is being referenced. -- otherwise, there could never be a plain meaning ... right?

@JoshuaBigbee Absolutely. So - I am sitting here - with /a bunch of Jewish Commentaries/ .... Now, let me argue - "They don't consistently translate "Up Until" ... and "Up to and Including" .... So - Would the Earliest Christians have relied on these commentaries?

The text very plainly says "burn whatever is left".

"Burn" - is very plainly a Sabbath Prohibition

... But of course, the priests would have been exempt from that prohibition - when burning at the Temple.

@enegue Plain Meaning: IF/WHEN you concede that a "Plain Meaning" relies on the consistent application of grammatical rules ... then we can apply those rules - everywhere. If it means one thing in chapter 12, then it means the same in 13. Unless there is something exceptional in the context.

2:31 AM

@elikakohen A Prohibition according to who?

@JoshuaBigbee Prohibition to Start a Fire: Exodus 35:3, Hebrew Interlinear - "Kindle / to Start" is from the Hebrew word "תְבַעֲר֣וּ" which is the same word in Exodus 3:2, (the burning bush); Deut 4:1, (the mountain burned with fire), etc.

It literally means, "to burn" - and is not limited just to starting a fire. ... There is actually quite a bit of contention about this in Judaism.

... Regardless, the "Plain Meaning" of the word, (apart from Rabbinical Commentary) - is "to burn".

... (The Crucifixion Narrative has a whole lot of burning and torches)

I'd always thought and heard that was literally referring to the STARTING of a fire. For those familiar with doing such a thing...it can be work. However, keeping a fire lit, or using an existing fire to light a new one is simple. It isn't prohibiting fire or even the proliferation of fire, it is prohibiting the creation of fire from scratch, no starting flame or embers

So burning the remaining lamb isn't a problem, the fire was lit before. Lighting a torch is easy, you touch it to an existing fire, etc.

2:47 AM

@JoshuaBigbee Karaite Judaism and Sabbath / Fire: newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Karaite_Judaism#The_Shabbat

Relevance is..? You are thinking Sadducees would agree with the Karaites? And if Sadducees controlled the council they controlled that rule? I think the Pharisee's control prior to that, and simple human nature (Karaites using batteries? Sounds like the Amish I work with HAH) would mean the Sadducees would not get away with saying everyone has to be in the dark the whole time

"he Sadducees of the late Second Temple period, who insisted on maintaining the ancient practices, defined teva’aru as “burn” and translated the verse ‘You may not burn a fire in all of your habitations on the Sabbath day” and sat in darkness and cold on the Sabbath.[1]"

"The Pharisees, who sought ways to make the laws more lenient, and from whom rabbinical Judaism evolved, translated teva’aru as “kindle.” They prohibited making a fire, but if the fire already existed one could enjoy its light and heat."

booksnthoughts.com/the-sabbath-provoked-sadducees-and-pharisees

@Joshua The Point is: A.) This discussion began when @enegue cited a quote from Rabbinic Judaism - as evidence of what the Earliest Church relied upon; B.) I am trying to convince @enegue that this argument is unreliable, and has a lot of uncertainties; C.) Ultimately - I believe it is a moot argument, unknowable - We cannot presuppose, through tradition - which customs may have been enforced at that time - so, we should defer to documented evidence;

@Joshua D.) EXACTLY - about the Sadducees and the Sabbath, and Burning: E.) The gospels indicate that Peter was keeping warm - by the fire - outside of the court;

Fair enough, I just think you are often relying on or hoping for some document that will show you a clear example or distinction, but in the end I think all you will find is that how you read said document will once again rely on the presuppositions and customs held by its author. Don't let me stop you from trying though ;) good night

@Joshua F.) IF ... IF .. AND ONLY IF ... G.) The Last Supper actually occurred AFTER the Passover Sacrifice, and that dinner was the meal .... H.) And IF ... the next day, was a Sabbath - .... then NONE of the entire crucifixion narrative - makes any sense - at all.

@Joshua ... I did finally find very solid evidence of the reliance on the Babylonian reckoning of the calendar day!

3:04 AM

As I said somewhere recently, there's a point where hermeneutics gives way and it really becomes a matter of epistemology: How you decide which information is valid. Unfortunately, a lot of people want very much to be able to say things are logically or reasonably certain or objective one way or the other, but really its just a matter of varying degrees of consensus. Eh don't get me started. Night

@elikakohen Though I'd love to see that later

@Joshua Will do

2 hours later…

5:11 AM

@Joshua, if bob says he will be "on vacation until the 3rd" then people would expect him back at work on the 3rd. The clear understanding of the word "until" is BEFORE the marker event specified.

Sorry. Didn't finish that last sentence. "BEFORE the marker event specified I will be doing such and such."

5:25 AM

@Elika kohen, You say, "This discussion began when @enegue cited a quote from Rabbinic Judaism". I have no knowledge of Rabbinic Judaism. My only source of knowledge is what the Bible has to say. If what I say lines up with Rabbinic Judaism then that's because we must be looking at the Bible in the same way. If we are not confused and are not seeing contradictions everywhere, and you AREe confused because you can see contradictions everywhere, then maybe it's time to change your view.

5:46 AM

- I am very sorry - maybe we are talking about a different question. **Your Answer, (Currently) - says:** - > A commenter has suggested Leviticus 23:27-32 means that the "Day of Atonement" is 48 hours in length, but according to Judaism 101:

>> Yom Kippur is a complete Sabbath; no work can be performed on that day. It is well-known that you are supposed to refrain from eating and drinking (even water) on Yom Kippur. It is a complete, 25-hour fast beginning before sunset on the evening before Yom Kippur and ending after nightfall on the day of Yom Kippur.

@enegue - And an appeal to Rabbinic Tradition: The 25-hour fast is a tradition, but "the tenth day" is still only 24 hours in length -- from EVEN to EVEN.

@enegue And an Appeal to Inductive Logic - Claiming that One Example, applies to the Entirety of Scripture: If the "tenth day of the seventh month" is defined in this way then so must the ninth and the eleventh, and by induction, so must all the days of the Jewish calendar.

@Elika kohen Jesus and the disciples were traditional Jews, who entered a room in the city of Jerusalem on Nisan 14 towards the end of the day (the first day of Unleavened Bread). The Passover lamb was killed (whether by them, or by the person who supplied the room, no one knows), which was then roasted and eaten sometime after Nisan 14 had transitioned into Nisan 15.

@enegue So - yes - YOUR Answer is completely contradictory - with itself. Arguing that the "Plain Meaning of a Test Cannot be derived from Rabbinic Tradition, Documented 2+ Centuries Later" - is a self-contradictory statement,

@enegue The Difference between Hermeneutics and Dogma: A.) Just because say something is true - doesn't mean it is. B.) YOU SAID: "Jesus and the disciples were traditional Jews" - ... But this is completely contradictory to the text - and Jesus calling the Pharisees, (which became Rabbinicism), - "The Synagogue of Satan".

The Last Supper was a different meal that began on Nisan 18 towards the end of the day and ended some time after Nisan 18 had transitioned into Nisan 19, whereupon they open the door to leave and stepped out on to the Mount of Olives.

@enegue The Last Supper bagan on Nisan 18? I understand your opinion, and your religious convictions. But that is nowhere in the texts. Again, Hermeneutics is an examination of the texts, the history, cultures, and even traditions - of that period.

You are saying the Bible is contradictory and I'm contradictory and you're seeing it right. But when I asked you to articulate you understanding of what constituted the Jewish notion of a day, you couldn't do it. The reason all this seems contradictory is because you have no foundation upon which to build.

6:01 AM

@enegue I SAID: > Your argument is internally contradictory.

The only dates in the text that can anchor the events of the passion of Jesus are "the first day of Unleavened Bread and the first day of the week on which Jesus rose from the grave. Everything else has to be placed in logical sequence to accommodate those dates.

@enegue You asked me to articulate my notion of a Jewish Day: A.) Can you see why I am confused - by this question? B.) Have you read the title of the question? In the Passover Narratives, Why do Christians Assert the Calendar Day Began at Night?

Your question doesn't tell us what you believe.

It asks people to justify what Christians believe.

@enegue But I don't care about reconciling the Gospels - and its not my question. C.) Hermeneutics.Stack .... is not a Christian website, for people to preach at others; D.) It is a site - to academically examine texts - neutrally; E.) So, I asked "what evidences would have informed the early Christians."

@enegue My question is a historical question. This is not an apologetics site.

Let me give you a really cool example.

So - my question was, "What evidences exist - that indicate how the Early Christians could have perceived the "Calendar Day"?

:D

I found this.

Can you now articulate your understanding of what constituted the Jewish notion of a day? What have your hermeneutic skills revealed in that regard?

What am I preaching to you?

6:09 AM

[Jubilees 49:1](http://www.summascriptura.com/html/Jubilees_RHC.html#49:1) - 49:1 Remember the commandment which the Lord commanded thee concerning the passover, that thou shouldst celebrate it in its season on the fourteenth of the first month, that thou shouldst kill it before it is evening, and that they should eat it by night on the evening of the fifteenth from the time of the setting of the sun.
49:2 For on this night -the beginning of the festival and the beginning of the joy- ye were eating the passover in Egypt, when all the powers of Mast鮢 had been let loose to slay all the firs…

Jubilees in not in the Jewish canon nor the Christian canon.

@enegue The book of Jubiliees is dated about 200-300 BCE.

@enegue AND, it is cited by early Tannaim - and also represented Sadducee beliefs.

It is EVIDENCE - an example - that there really was such a belief.

The earliest CHristians - would have certainly had access to this book.

As proof, even the Book of James cites it.

And - the Catholics DID accept it into their cannon.

Why are you talking about Christians? Our dialog is about the evidence for what constituted the Jewish notion of a day from, I would presume, the agreed upon canon.

@enegue Have you actually read the question?

@enegue THERE WAS NO "CHRISTIAN BIBLE" - when Matthew, Mark, and Luke, John - wrote their "gospels".

I have not used anything but the OT in my argument about the Jewish notion of a day.

Neither, Jesus and the disciples, nor the writers of the NT, used anything but the OT in regard to the Jewish notion of a day.

6:18 AM

@enegue Please Stop: Enegue, I have really tried to be patient. But you keep lying - for whatever reason. B.) Whatever your personal convictions are - you are entitled to them. But you are not entitled to waste my time. C.) You said: I have not used anything but the Old Testament - but you quoted Rabbinic Judaism, again: A commenter has suggested Leviticus 23:27-32 means that the "Day of Atonement" is 48 hours in length, but according to Judaism 101:

@enegue And what do you think the Old Testament Was? Justin Martyr claimed it was 21 books. Do you really think there was a book called, "The Old Testament"???

Elika, I have not quote any Rabbinic Judaism.

Elika, you are just being argumentative. The OT is the Jewish canon.

@enegue And you are lying. Stop talking to me. Again, your quote from Rabbinic Judaism: Yom Kippur is a complete Sabbath; no work can be performed on that day. It is well-known that you are supposed to refrain from eating and drinking (even water) on Yom Kippur. It is a complete, 25-hour fast beginning before sunset on the evening before Yom Kippur and ending after nightfall on the day of Yom Kippur.

Stop.

I am done.

It is impossible to reason with someone that cannot stop lying.

6:47 AM

*** This is a general comment addressed to anyone who might be have noticed the accusation of lying that has been directed at me. ***

The site Judaism 101 is not a front for Rabbinic Judaism. It is a site that has been created by a single individual, Tracey Rich, who describes what she does in this way: "I write the site from an Orthodox perspective because I think that's the best place to start if you want to understand Jewish traditions."

I used a quote from the site that explains how modern Jews celebrate Yom Kippur, in order to resolve a difficulty that arose in relation to the EVEN to EVEN notion of a day.

7:34 AM

@enegue Enegue - A.) it had just occurred to that you may not have understood what, "Orthodox or Reform Judaism" is, and that they are Rabbinic Judaism; B.) So, I came back on to apologize - and just found this statement; C.) The Lie: I have not used anything but the OT in my argument about the Jewish notion of a day; D.) And obviously, I don't need to repeat you just saying you relied on Judaism101 - is not the OT.

Thank you. I wasn't relying on Judaism 101. For me, the OT (Jewish canon) is what I rely on in regard to what the Jews believe (or are supposed to). Since you were confused about the EVEN to EVEN notion as it was explained in the OT I thought I'd use an explanation that would clear up the issue FOR YOU.

I am not confused by this stuff.

It seems pretty straight forward

to me.

You seem to have a hump that you just can't get over. I have been trying various ways to help you do that. I apologise if I have come across as pushy.

7:58 AM

@enegue If you are not relying on it - then please remove these arguments from your answer - (THIS WAS MY VERY FIRST REQUEST TO YOU);

@enegue You cannot possibly know this about me - but, trust me - I am intimately familiar with Judaic argument - their sources in Rabbinic and Pharasaic Tradition - and how those traditions sharply opposed the Priests, (the Kohenim, the Scribes, the Karaites, etc);

@enegue That is why I didn't ask a question - asking for peoples opinions; I just wanted to see evidence; Your argument that the Gospel Writers appealed to the Plain Meaning of the Text is incredibly solid., (I can give evidence in support of that);

8:13 AM

@enegue Question: How do you deduce that the fast of the Day of Atonement - includes fasting from water? Are there corollary passages that plainly state this?

@enegue And please stop misrepresenting me - I never said that the Day of Atonement didn't plainly state from evening until evening - being a 24 hour period.

@enegue It was you: who said, "From evening of 9th, means the end of 9th in this passage - but "in Exodus, when it says from the evening of the fourteenth, it means the beginning of the fourteenth"

@enegue THAT Is the Source of My Confusion: How you would interpret it one way, one place, and differently in the other. When I asked you:- you responded with the quotes from Rabbinic Judaism - and then said you were only relying on the plain text - so it is / was impossible to tell where you are relying on the text - or relying on Rabbinic Judaism.

8:51 AM

Elika, I have no wish to explain what the Jews do on the Day of Atonement or why they do it. That is immaterial to the EVEN to EVEN notion of a day that I was trying to clear up for you.

Yes, it was me who said "and to make sure nobody misunderstood regarding the Sabbath on 'tenth day of the seventh month', it begins when the 'ninth day of the seventh month' ends".

@enegue - And I agree with that. God said from the evening on the 9th - to safeguard the Sabbath. That is the plain meaning.

No question.

@enegue Then we Agree: The Plain meaning of Numbers 33:3 - is: "The Sabbath was observed from the end of the 9th at sunset until the end of the 10th at sunset."

Sorry, Lev. 23:32

And so - it is plainly an example of the Day ending at Sunset.

Yes.

(Corresponding to the Egyptian Calendar Day).

If that day goes from EVEN to EVEN then so must every day in their calendar. Can you see that?

Whoa.

What day?

You just said the 9th ended at sunset.

and the 10th ended at sunset.

The REST was to be observed from EVEN until EVEN.

8:58 AM

If the tenth goes from EVEN to EVEN, what happens with the previous 24 hours?

Sabbath = Rest / cessation from work.

Back Up: Are you still saying the Day of Atonement, the Day of Rest ... Is from the End of the 9th, at Evening, until the end of the 10th at evening?

The 9th ends at evening ... and the 10th, ends at evening, right?

Yes. It is the 10th day of the seventh month.

from the evening of the 9th, until the evening of the 10th. TWO Calendar DATES - in that statement.

The 10th begins when the 9th ends.

Correct.

the 9th ends at night.

- in that text.

well, it doesn't say that.

9:01 AM

yes, and the 10th begins the very instant the ninth ends

okay.

Well, it doesn't say when the 9th actually ends...

but ... IT DOES SAY .. when the Sabbath starts.

It is understood.

The text is about the Sabbath.

The text is about the "tenth day of the seventh month"

You say, "It is understood". Meaning - you suggest that they relied on something - outside of the text, to interpret it - right?

The text is about the DAY of atonement. That verse - is the about the obligation to stop working.

At the very least, its about those things.

9:03 AM

Every piece of text that was ever written depends presumed knowledge

"The Sabbath" begins from the evening of the 9th, until the evening of the 10th.

@enegue Except the only presumption that can be made - is based on a FACT. Israel was enslaved in Egypt for 200+ years.

AND - Israel - started with 1 Guy.

The entire nation of Israel was "Birthed" in Egypt

minus the 70 that went down to Egypt with Jacob.

well, most of them weren't "Jewish" either, but that's kind of irrelevant.

The text begins with "Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement:" in verse 27.

YOU SAID: There is always a presumption.

yep.

Yes. In every text ever written. Even ours here.

Please Note: My question is about passover - (which happened before that) -

So what is the problem?

9:07 AM

Elika, I don't have a problem.

The day of atonement is on the 10th. The cessation of work - begins at the end of the ninth.

Those are fact.

I am trying to establish the notion of a Jewish day.

I am trying to understand the text - "Jewish" didn't even exist at the time.

Remember, Abraham was Canaanite.

Whatever the Jew chose to do in regard to the Day of Atonement is their business.

I thought we were not appealing to Judaism, here?

The Hebrews -

9:08 AM

It does not impact on what the text clearly says about the Jewish notion of a day.

I'm not

You are.

All my attention is on the Jewish notion of a day

Which is clearly defined in the text. From EVEN to EVEN

Okay. Just the Text then. 1. Day of Atonment, on the 10th. 2. the Cessation began the evening of the ninth, but not the night; 3. the cessation of work ended at the evening of the 10th, (not the night).

It says the Sabbath is from even until even.

No. I don't want to talk about what they did. It is not important to the idea of what the Jewish notion of a DAY was.

THE TEXT is a commandment.

How is the commandment not important?

YOU SAID: the purpose was to ensure noone worked.

The commandment is not important to the Jewish notion of a DAY

No, You said that.

I am approaching this from a purely subjective point of view.

AGAIN, Please don't "mislead"me: - YOU SAID - Sabbaths are to be celebrated from even unto even, and to make sure nobody misunderstood regarding the Sabbath on "tenth day of the seventh month", it begins when the "ninth day of the seventh month" ends.

You seemed to say that God was very emphatic that everyone keep this sabbath - and made sure they didn't misunderstand.

After all - if they didn't - they would die.

Sounds kinda like an important commandment.

9:13 AM

Good Lord, Elika. I could have written "the tenth day of the seventh month" instead of the Sabbath, but I presumed a certain level of understanding.

It might be an important commandment, but we aren't talking about what was done, only about how the day was defined.

EVEN to EVEN

You are presupposing that the Hebrews - back then, counted calendar days from sunset, (ike the Babylonians) - but not like the Egyptians, where they had been for centuries

If the "tenth day of the seventh month" goes from EVEN to EVEN, the so do all the other days.

That verse explicitly defines a the period of time - that they were to observe the Sabbath.

It explicitly says that.

The Hebrews days start in darkness because that is how creation began.

Do you know what a "Begging the Question Fallacy" is?

It is: When you assume the conclusion - as proof - that that same conclusion is true.

9:17 AM

Elika. I think we better call it quits. You clearly have no desire to accept that the Jewish notion of a DAY, EVERY DAY, ANY DAY is from EVEN to EVEN.

You are saying: "The Day of Atonement proves that the Calendar Day begins at Sunset - because the Calendar Day begins at Sunset - and everyone knows that!"

You are citing /one text/ as a proof.

rather than citing many evidences, to support that conclusion.

Absolutely

***AND, your conclusion is completely contradicted by Numbers 33:3

If one day goes from EVEN to EVEN then so must every day.

So, if one text shows that the Day BEGAN after midnight ...

would you then say - ALL Days began after sunset?

Because - THE PASSOVER - explicitly states that the Calendar Day began after Sunset.

9:19 AM

What text do you believe is saying the day began after midnight?

Numbers 33;3

How so?

It says, "On the next day after the Passover, the 15th..."

Its not ambiguous, at all.

Even Jewish Rabbis recognize that.

The Passover was on Nisan 14. the next day is Nisan 15

The Pass Over ... is when God struck Egypt,

Are we redefining Passover?

9:22 AM

The Passover feast that God instituted began on Nisan 14.

You are changing scripture

You mean, they ate the feast on the 14th?

because - it explicitly states that they ate it - AT NIGHT, (not evening).

No. The killing of the lamb began the feast, and it happened on Nisan 14

The sacrifice was at evening, on the 14th.

Okay, so you ignore Ex. 12?

No. Not at all. Tell me how?

ex, 12:8 8That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire,

9:24 AM

The night represents the hours of blackness.

No idea what you mean by that.

In the Bible, "Night" means "after sunset".

Night means not light

so - after sunset.

no light

no light.

9:25 AM

yes.

in the dark

So, what about the word, "Darkness".

What does darkness mean?

something different from night?

no light. Please don't tell me you are going quibble about when it actually becomes black

Of course not.

I am just going to ask you to apply that logic to the same text.

Ex. 12:29 - Now it came about at mid night that the LORD struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt

the hours of darkness are what 12:8 is using the word "night" to describe

So, what does "Mid Darkness" mean?

hours of darkness.

9:28 AM

Not mid darkness.

Midnight is an hour of the EVEN to EVEN day.

Okay... so when did "the hour of darkness" ... (no light) - actually happen?

After Nisan 14 ended and before the morning of Nisan 15

No - Midnight doesn't mean "Middle of the time between evenings".

Because Exodus 12:29, again... explicitly defines it

That's your understanding of it

In Hebrew, בַּחֲצִ֣י = half.

הַלַּ֗יְלָה = Night, (You call it "Darkness")

9:30 AM

Then if that is so, then their midnight is not the same as ours.

The plain meaning, means, "Half of the Night". ... or, "Half of the Darkness".

Fine.

I am happy to acknowledge that

Equivocation Fallacy: Ambiguously applying one definition in one place, but using a different definition in the other.

As long as you understand the difference between their understanding and our modern understanding.

Okay...

9:32 AM

Midnight is not a problem here, Elika

Of course. I assume that the Roman understanding didn't apply then.

That leaves only the Egyptian understanding, and perhaps the Babylonian

Midnight was an hour on Nisan 15

OKAY.

:D

Totally agree.

If you look at my graph you will see it clearly

The Passover, when God struck Egypt - happened on midnight.

(I don't technically agree that Pass Over was on the 15th, but I am conceding the point)

9:33 AM

The feast that God instituted began on Nisan 14

The meal was eaten on Nisan 15

So - if ... as you say the "Pass Over" ... happened at "midnight" - whatever that means - and that occurance was on the 15th.

The Passover occurred on Nisan 15

But the TEXT says that the meal was eaten BEFORE the NIGHT/Darkness... at evening.

No, it doesn't

Tell me how?

Yeah, it does.

P.S. nothing, at all, that I ever say, is without evidence.

:)

9:35 AM

Tell me how

ACK.

I said that backward.

The Lamb was eaten at Night

and the Sacrifice happened at evening.

Sorry - I misunderstood you!

Sacrifice at Evening, Eating, at Darkness; Pass Over - at midnight.

Yes. The lamb was killed on Nisan 14, which marked the beginning of the Feast instituted by God

Yes

Okay.

So the feast - and the "Passover" happened "after evening".

Which - for argument's sake.

we agree was the 15th.

So, Again: Numbers 33:3 The Israelites set out from Rameses on the fifteenth day of the first month, the day after the Passover.

The Pass Over can't both be on the 15th, and the day after - also be the 15th

The day after the passover is Nisan 15 because the Passover Feast that was instituted by God began on Nisan 14

BUT YOU JUST SAID: they ate it on the 15th.

Okay, so they sacrificed on the 14th, at evening.

(We agree, I think)

And they ate it at NIGHT, (or darkness, whatever) - we agree, I think.

9:41 AM

Yes. The sacrifice marked the beginning of the Passover FEAST

The Passover event occurred on Nisan 15

1. "FEAST" is not in the Hebrew.

Khag, a holiday - is in the context.

No it's not but I'm sure you can accommodate it.

"festival" is a closer translation - not feast.

Sure.

That's probably a better word

But. The text is explicitly talking about the moment OF Pass Over.

9:43 AM

No. The text is talking about many things

One second. I am trying to argue your point.

Go ahead

9:1 Remember the commandment which the Lord commanded thee concerning the passover, that thou shouldst celebrate it in its season on the fourteenth of the first month, that thou shouldst kill it before it is evening, and that they should eat it by night on the evening of the fifteenth from the time of the setting of the sun.

To be sure - that is what you are arguing, right?

Where is that text from?

Jubilees, Chapter 49

;)

9:49 AM

I don't want to know about it.

:p

so, its not what you mean, then?

What are you asking?

(by the way, James quotes Jubilees)

Just to make sure -

We're not taking about the NT

This isn't New Testament.

Its 200+ BCE.

9:50 AM

James?

Exra time period.

ezra time period.

It was cannonized, and then not, accepted by the Jews, and then not.

long story.

but - regardless - it is a very old text.

and is very explicit.

Doesn't matter. We have to agree on what the basis of arguement can be conducted.

-- this is what I would expect, when it comes to "Plain Meaning".

For me, it is the Jewish canon as we have it today.

We agree, I assume: that's it meaning is crystal clear.

9:52 AM

What meaning? :)

In Jubilees.

the 15th began at sunset.

very explicit, very plain - no question.

I am working on your "the Pass Over" was not a reference to the "Pass Over" - but to the Sacrifice.

Deut. 6:5 5 You are not allowed to sacrifice the Passover in any of your [b]towns which the Lord your God is giving you; 6 but at the place where the Lord your God chooses to establish His name, you shall sacrifice the Passover in the evening at sunset, at the time that you came out of Egypt.

Yes.

16:6

When did their coming out of Egypt commence?

After midnight, obviously.

however ...

although evening, here is certainly, "Erev, (בָּעָ֑רֶב)"

9:57 AM

No. When they killed the lamb and painted the lintel and posts with its blood.

"at the time" ... doesn't say "day" it says "מוֹעֵ֖ד" moed.

not day, not morning.

Sorry.. they started leaving egypt... after sunset.

That's okay.

No. They started on the morning of Nisan 15

They started leaving

I am really trying to stay out of the feast of weeks discussion, and omer.

correct.

sometime at between midnight, and morning... or some ambiguous point.

there are two different words here - possibly indicated that they God was leading them, they were leaving, and then had left.

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