@enegue I wanted to invite you to this chat room the moderators created to talk about the "Passion Week" - The Night / Day issue is related, so maybe this would be a better way to discuss it?

@enegue So, starting from common ground, I am assuming: A.) That we agree that the Passover Lamb was sacrificed on the Fourteenth, before Night, after Evening; B.) We agree - That at about Midnight, the "Pass Over" occurred; C.) We agree - That in the middle of the night, Pharaoh woke up - and told Moses to leave; D.) We agree that when Israel Left, Egypt - that morning, it was the Fifteenth; E.) Am I correct in what we agree on?

@enegue - F.) If so, it seems the issue is "When did it transition from "the 14th to the 15th" - G.) It seems that you are suggesting that the 15th started after the sacrifice, but before they ate the Passover Lamb; - and that the actual "Pass over" occurred on the 15th; H.) Do I understand all of this correctly?

Thanks for the invitation

A.) Exodus 12

A.) Exodus 12:6 says the lamb was to be killed on Nisan 14 at hā-‘ar-bā-yim, i.e. the evening hours (at the end of the day). Exodus 12:8 says they were to eat it AFTER that roasted in the fire. B.) Yes, but now it is Nisan 15. C.) Yes D.) Yes F.) The transition from the 14th to the 15th traditionally occurs at sundown. I think for the sake of consistency that is usually given as 6 pm.

G.) Yes. The lamb would need to cooked, though, which would have started after it was killed towards the end of Nisan 14 and then continued into Nisan 15. It would have been eaten some hours later, exactly when is a bit hard to track down. H.) Mostly. You seem to have a much better handle on it, now.

@JoshuaBigbee (and @enegue) You Said: does it say next day or the next morning? A.) Exodus 12:17, 41, 51, (בעצם היום הזה) : Emphatic "Very Same Day" - the 14th, God led/brought (הוֹצֵ֥אתִי) them out; B.) Numbers 33:3: On the fifteenth, they "וַיִּסְע֤וּ", (set out from Rameses) , The "ממחרת הפסח" the day after, (morning?) the Passover, "יצאו בני־ישראל", (they went out);

@JoshuaBigbee - (and @enegue) - C.) Leviticus 23:11: "ממחרת השבת" the day after the Sabbath, (the fourteenth was the Sabbath; D.) I am very uncomfortable translating this phrase, "the morning after" - because "מחר" means "the next day", or "tomorrow": 1 Sam 11:9 - 'Tomorrow, by the time the sun is hot, you will have deliverance.'" - which is clearly not always about the morning... but it is certainly the next day ...

@elika kohen A.) I'm sure the language here is the cause of much of the confusion associated with the Feast of Unleavened Bread, i.e. is it 7 or 8 days? does is start on Nisan 14 or 15, but for me Exodus 12:42 clears up the ambiguity -- "It is a night to be much observed ..." What night? The night of the meal (from killing to eating), the night of the death of the firstborn, the night Pharaoh urged Israel to get up and go, and as day broke, the morning they moved out.

All these things took place on the night that span Nisan 14 and Nisan 15.

Hi Joshua

B.) The Passover began on Nisan 14, so the day after is Nisan 15. Yes, the morning after the night that spanned Nisan 14 and 15.

@enegue regarding 7 or 8 days, there is a clear parallel in the spring and fall feasts. And the corresponding feast in the fall clearly says 8, so I've always taken Passover to have a first day od preparation, 14th, and then seven more days of feast,15-21

I understand, but as far as my reading of scripture goes there are far fewer consistency issues if one assumes 7.

Though I would spend any time arguing about the point.

@elika kohen C.) Yes, Nisan 14 was a Sabbath because the Feast of Unleavened Bread has a Sabbath on the first day (Nisan 14) and a Sabbath on the last (Nisan 20). The definition of this feast (Exodus 12:18) doesn't use hā-‘ar-bā-yim for "even" so we know it is referring to the beginning of Nisan 14, through to the "even", again not hā-‘ar-bā-yim, the beginning of Nisan 21.

@enegue A.) I don't understand where you got the 20th, when the text says 21st for the last day, the Sabbath; B.) The definition of the feast in Exodus 12 - says that the the lamb would be eaten together with the unleavened bread - at night, בַּלַּ֣יְלָה and after the sacrifice in the evening / בָּעֶ֔רֶב

@enegue C.) So, if your reckoning is correct, then the feast was eaten on the 15th;

@enegue Exodus 12:18: Hebrew Interlinear, (Biblehub Link);

The text says, "UNTIL the one and twentieth day of the month at even". As I've said, the word used for "even" is not hā-‘ar-bā-yim so we know the author is not talking about the hours at the end of Nisan 21, but the beginning. The beginning of Nisan 21 is the end of the Feast.

B.) Yes. The lamb is eaten during the night that spans Nisan 14 and 15, but the lamb was killed in the closing hours of Nisan 14. B.) Yes, that is so regardless of the time it is eaten on the night that spans Nisan 14 and 15.

@elikakohen OK your latest comment of that question confused me. You equated the biblical day and the Roman day.. But that is not correct. That is adding a third system of timekeeping. Roman days were midnight, starting at night and ending at night. The solar day of Rashbam I'd sunrise to sunrise. The Babylonian is evening to evening. Three methods.

C.) The Feast begins on the day the lamb is killed, Nisan 14, and it is eaten during the night that spans Nisan 14 and 15.

I don't follow. How did I use a Roman day?

@enegue not you :p and Hi enegue!

@Elika Oh I see, you are confused by my use of "spanned". I apologise. I will rephrase because for the Jews, if sundown marks the end of the day then night will follow, i.e. the beginning of the next day.

@enegue - Ex. 12:18: "Until the 21st at evening" - is the same construction as the Day of Atonement in Leviticus 23:32, Until Evening, (עד־ערב);

@JoshuaBigbee - Sorry, I am making all kinds of type-os at the moment. But - what I meant -was, neither method begins from sunset.

@enegue No, The lamb is only eaten on ONE night, before midnight;

@enegue When you say, "a night spans from 14th to 15" and ends that morning... you are saying in one night, (not evening) - there are two calendar days.

@enegue Your previous comments made it seem that you were implying that only 1 calendar day was in 1 night. I may have misunderstood;

The solar day that the anti-babylonian method people used, such as Qumran, DID use sunrise to sunrise...there is no method in the Torah that uses midnight(not counting later NT possiblebuse) such as in John)

Ether way - I just came to a completely new understanding of this that is really pretty cool. :)

@JoshuaBigbee Sorry, I was quoting @DickHarfield - one second while I pull up the rerefence.

Elika, in relation to Leviticus 23, the Jews are not confused about the text and neither am I. For them to mention the ninth day in reference to the "tenth day", clearly they understand that its referring to the end of the ninth, which marks the beginning of the tenth.

@JoshuaBigbee Here is a better reference to the Babylonian Day, beginning at Sunset - books.google.com/…

@enegue A.) I agree, they were not confused - when they heard it; B.) But - if it means "From Sunset on the 9th, until the end of the day on the 10" - then it would have made a LOT more sense if God had instead said, "From Evening of the 10th, until Evening on the 11th" -

@enegue If they had understood calendar days as you suggest, intimately, then that phrasing would have been perfectly understandable.

@enegue But your assertion that this text was clearly understood - by JEWS - to be an exception from the normal reckoning - is completely false: See the comments to the discussion, below the question: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/69630/…

I suspect the reason for the Jews to have the beginning of the day when the sun has gone, is related to the first day of creation. Day one started "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.", and at some time after "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. So, for the Jews, there is darkness first and the light follows.

@enegue You don't have to suspect anything - Rashbam clearly explained why they don't agree with your statements. thetorah.com/can-torah-contradict-halacha

@enegue Either way - everything you are appealing to - is Rabbinic doctrine, which wasn't available at the time;

@enegue A.) However, that Babylonian reference I just linked is something that would certainly have influenced the Pharisees, though perhaps not the Christians; B.) Regardless, they all would have known about the huge debate between the Pharisees and the Sadducees who refused to embrace the Babylonian customs and claims of "Oral Torah"

Okay - now I really have to go.

I will catch up later. A.) All I am asking - is to identify historical evidences that they could have relied upon. B.) However, what you You cannot do, is say: "they relied on the plain meaning of the text - to arrive at this understanding" - when even Rabbinic Jews disagree with you - that it is NOT the Plain Meaning of the text;

LOL I am not appealing to anything other than the scripture. If Rashbam has a different view and you prefer his to mine, who am I to get in your way. Nevertheless, I will try to explain the scriptures as I see them, and my rule of thumb is always Occam's razor.

@enegue @enegue saying that one thing is interpretted one way, in one text, but not another - is not occam's razor. BUT OCCAM's Razor Fits: Many, many contradictions would be removed - if the plain meaning of "Day" was understood - and not some Babylonian custom that Israel didn't get immersed in - until centuries later;