@DickHarfield and @JoshuaBigbee - Just to be clear, all of the gospels say that Pilate handed Jesus over to the Jews for Crucifixion, (twice): once to Herod, and then again after Pilate's own trial of Jesus, (Mark 15:15);

elika, I am curious as to why you would think Luke 22:15-16 could possibly mean that Jesus was initially going to eat of that particular Passover meal but then stop and not eat of it afterall?

@BrianWeigand A.) When making any conclusions - sometimes, we can only make them based on the facts that we currently have; B.) Because of this, I first assume that I do not have all of the "facts"; C.) So, I look for "facts" that may be relevant to whichever conclusion, specifically:

@elikakohen - I saw your first post where you included references to the other gospel accounts of the meal, with Mark 14:20 having Jesus dipping into the dish.

@BrianWeigand C.1.) οὐκέτι is often translated as "no longer" - perhaps implying that an action currently in progress - will stop; C.2.) Both "Desire" and "Eat" are rendered in the Aorist, (though I am unsure of their Aspects) - which also carries a feeling that an action that had started - may not have stopped; C.3) The subjunctive mood - is suggestive, perhaps; "I suspect I will not eat" ...

@BrianWeigand Correct, I removed the references to the "he had been eating at the time he said those words" - to shorten the question. But "dipping bread" isn't necessarily indicative of "the Passover Feast", (It is actually contradictory to the idea of it being a Passover Feast, (shoes on, hurried, at the temple, etc).

@elikakohen - it seems like to me that you are getting hung up on one or two words and ignoring the full sentence that Jesus speaks. I don't understand why you think "dipping bread" is contrary to Passover, when they are celebrating Passover.

@BrianWeigand Just realized that the subjunctive may have indicated a sense of "permission" - "I cannot eat until" ...

@BrianWeigand "Dipping Bread", along with "reclining at the table" - would have been contrary to the commands regarding eating the Passover Sacrifice.

@BrianWeigand - I am still confused - it seems like you are saying very contradictory things: A.) Are you saying they WERE eating the Passover Lamb? B.) Are you saying that, "Jesus would not eat of "this Passover"; C.) And if both are true - wouldn't that be a contradiction?

@elikakohen - why do you think those things are contrary to Passover when they are doing it at the Passover meal?

@BrianWeigand - A.) You are presupposing that it WAS a Passover Feast - I am not; B.) And - they are contrary - because IF that was the way they were celebrating the Passover Feast - then they were breaking pretty much every Passover law.

@elikakohen - that's what I don't understand...why do you think it wasn't a Passover meal, and what specific "laws" where being broken? I am unable to find where it says to eat standing up during the Passover meal, only to eat "with a belt on your waist, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. So you shall eat it in haste." -Exodus 12:11

@elikakohen - but that was only for that specific 1st Passover meal, because they needed to be ready to leave from Egypt.

@BrianWeigand - I added a bunch of references from Scripture in section 2 to show some of those contradictions - I just now highlighted in bold the passages from Deut. and Ex.

@BrianWeigand @BrianWeigand - Suppose that the command only applied to that first passover - A.) The command still stood to eat it at the temple - which necessarily required being "ready to go"; B.) It isn't the only contradiction - there are so many others.

@BrianWeigand @BrianWeigand - So let me ask this: A.) Were they eating the Passover Lamb, that they had sacrificed? B.) And if so - Wouldn't it have made that very moment - a Sabbath, a High Holy Day - regardless of the day of the week it fell on?

@DickHarfield - Could we talk about the issue here?

@elikakohen - Mark 14:12 says they had already sacrificed the Passover lamb: "Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, 'Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?'" As does Luke 22:7.

@BrianWeigand - A.) In Mark 14:12, "Killed" is not in the Aorist like the other verbs, (let alone past tense). B.) It is from the Greek, "ἔθυον" - in the imperfect tense - in Luke, it is ἔδει θύεσθαι, also Imperfect - infinitive.

@BrianWeigand C.) Further, "should prepare" is ἑτοιμάσωμεν, the Aorist Subjunctive - which is something I am really having a hard time understanding.

@elikakohen - my point is that the Passover lamb would have been sacrificed already by the time "evening came" in Mark 14:17 when they were eating while reclining at the table. So apparently this is why Jesus and the disciples are only mentioned eating bread and drinking wine, and nothing is said about them eating the lamb at the time.

@BrianWeigand If it is conceded that the lamb was already sacrificed - then at the very time they were eating, it would have been a Passover Sabbath, right?

@elikakohen -so A) they did eat the Passover lamb at the temple (this is not specifically stated in the gospels, of course), and B) you still haven't specified any actual contradictions.

@BrianWeigand The contradictions follow, if and only if the Lamb had already been sacrificed.

@BrianWeigand Most egregiously, the entire New Testament is predicated on whether or not Jesus fulfilled the Passover as the Passover Lamb - 1 Cor. 5:7 - But this contradiction is in the context of systematic theology - not necessarily relevant here.

@elikakohen - Leviticus 23:4-8 has the basic "rules" for the Passover. No customary work was to be done on the 1st and 7th days.

@BrianWeigand That's why the other question of whether "then came the first day" is referencing that evening (and them getting the room in preparation) OR is that the calendar day them finding the room happened on and then a new day started with evening

@elikakohen - Matthew 26:17 and Mark 14:12 both state that it was the 1st day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which was the Passover itself and which began the week-long celebration.

BECAUSE if it is referencing that evening...then that evening and the following afternoon (and his crucifixion) are on the same jewish calendar day (day starts with night)

Therefore that night and the following morning are the day the lamb was slaughtered

@JoshuaBigbee Remember, the "Jewish Calendar Day" beginning in the evening is a "Rabbinic Tradition" - that shouldn't be anochronistically injected into this context - But it is a bit immaterial here, anyway.

Brian, the first day is actually the 14th, when the lamb was slaughtered. The festival begins with the feast on the 15th and goes until the 21st. But the "first day of unleavened bread" is the same as the preparation day for Passover

ACK -

@JoshuaBigbee - did I say it wasn't on the 14th?

@JoshuaBigbee and @BrianWeigand - Set aside all of the presuppositions, (just for a second) :) Forget maybe even Hebrew Scripture - for a moment.

The issue is - whether or not the "Last Supper Feast" was a time they were actually eating the Passover Lamb - regardless - there are a LOT of contradictions created - no matter which is true.

@BrianWeigand It seemed like it when you said it was "passover itself" and "began the celebration" those things apply to the 15th. Sorry if I misunderstood

(Whether it was the 14th or 15th is another huge discussion, I am hoping to avoid).

In order to reconcile that the "Last Supper" WASN'T a Passover feast, then "then came the day" has to be interpreted idiomatically - and there is a significant burden of proof, to prove idiomatic usage.

BUT: if the Earliest Church - JEWS interpreted the "Last Supper" as a "Passover Feast" - then it creates many, many, many, other contradictions.

@elikakohen - the last supper feast only mentions eating bread and drinking wine, and no mention of eating the lamb. And you keep saying there are contradictions...please list one? @JoshuaBigbee - np

Most Specifically: God said that people would be cut off / killed / exiled from Israel if they did not observe the Passover as commanded.

I listed many in the post.

For example, IF it was a Passover Feast - then it was already a Sabbath.

oh about that elika, Justin Martyr pretty definitively does say it was on Passover. But honestly, I'm not really sure that helps anything. These are a bunch of Greeks writing to Greeks.

Not only would they have been violating passover commands - but the Sabbath also. And all of the following verses, (about the Sabbath - don't make any sense, because it was already the Sabbath).

@elikakohen - which post? I am only looking at your Luke 22:16 post.

@JoshuaBigbee !!!! If that Helps Anything?? That is the answer to my question!!!

"And it is written, that on the day of the passover you seized Him, and that also during the passover you crucified Him." Dialogue with Typho Chapter 111

@JoshuaBigbee Just some of the contradictions are posted here: hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/22042/…

To be fair, if ANY of these Greek guys would have known the difference, it would have been Justin Martyr writing about talking to a Jew. BUT others, like the quote by Origin are pretty meaningless. They had no better, if not less, info on Jewish custom than we do

@JoshuaBigbee I am wanting to know how the "Earliest Christians / Jews" resolved these issues - and if Justin Martyr and any others said the Last Supper was a Passover Feast - it would be very, very, insightful.

@elikakohen newadvent.org/fathers/01288.htm Go to Chapter 111

@JoshuaBigbee - it has been a long time since I read the Dialogue with Trypho - but you are right - it would be very, very, significant if it was mentioned there.

I just quoted it...^^^

@JoshuaBigbee A.) Do you happen to know where I can see that in Greek? B.) And it is written, that on the day of the passover you seized Him, and that also during the passover you crucified Him.

@JoshuaBigbee C.) On the day of the passover you seized Him - this precludes the possibility that Justin Martyr simultaneously held: C.1.) The "Day" began at evening AND C.2.) That the Last Supper was a Passover Feast; C.3.) They are mutually exclusive because - Jesus was siezed at night - and the following day would have still been the Day of the Passover Feast.

@elikakohen You are speaking of contradiction with John? Again, that's why I'm focused on the first day of unleavened bread.

@elikakohen - the last supper wasn't on the 7th-day Sabbath because Luke 23:52-56 specifically says Jesus was buried on Preparation Day (Friday) as the Sabbath (Saturday) drew near.

@elikakohen C.1. No both days are the same after midnight, so either way he's saying the same thing C.2. He doesn't technically mention the meal, you are drawing a deduction

IF....IFFFF (lol) Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7 and the Matthew one I can't remember right now, are all saying that the preparation day was "upon them" and was referring to that night....then I can offer a scenario which harmonizes ALL accounts. From Nisan 10 to 17

@BrianWeigand Correct, E.) They all say Jesus was buried on a day of Preparation; F.) But the Day of Passover can never be a Day of Preparation - because it is always a Sabbath, which has its own Day of Preparation. And, they specifically say, that Sabbath was a High Holy Day, a Passover Sabbath.

@JoshuaBigbee G.) I also agree - IFFFFFF - "Day of Preparation" began that night, (which it has to, for High Holy Days / but doesn't change the Calendar DATE) - H.) Then yes, harmonization of all the Gospels becomes clearly apparent.

@elikakohen - what Scripture says that the Day of Passover has it's own Day of Preparation?

@JoshuaBigbee You said: "Either way, he is saying the same thing." - A.) In Justin 111, He says, "On the Passover", and then "During the Passover"; B.) Did you mean that you read this as both statements were in reference to "The Same Day"? C.) That is why I would like to look at the Greek. D.) Playing Devil's Advocate - I am trying to argue that Justin is talking about two different days.

@BrianWeigand What Scripture says that Passover has its own Preparation Day? Are you asking for the Hebrew ones? Or the ones in the New Testament? (Assuming Hebrew, Just one Second while I get them).

@elikakohen I can't find a free Greek version now. Yes, I read it as same day. "on the day of the passover you seized Him, and that also during the passover..." ON the day....ALSO during

@BrianWeigand Exodus 12:18 I believe

@JoshuaBigbee So, you would characterize it as a historical account of someone believing that the Last Supper preceded that Passover feast then, right?

Sorry back to 12:15 for the preparation part

@elikakohen - either (or both) will work for me. @JoshuaBigbee - Exodus 12:15, 18 are talking about the Feast of Unleavened Bread (v17), which as we've already gone over and Leviticus 23:4-8 confirms, begins on the 14th and goes through the 21st.

@elikakohen With respect, i) I do not understand the objective of this discussion, ii) as far as I can see, you hope to be able to convince yourself/others of some issue around the Last Supper, iii) I don't think I can add anything of value. If all of us have been unable reach agreement with you both here and in the Library, I suspect this will continue until exhaustion.

@elikakohen uhh...not necessarily. Sorry thats not what I was referring to. I was referring to the Passover day part. But if its a jewish day they have the Feast in evening, then garden after midnight, arrest, trial in morning, crucifixion and then death in afternoon, all same Jewish day. But Roman day....

I hope all involved in the discussion get something of value out of, but there comes I time when I persoanlly have to move on. Sorry :)

@DickHarfield I am not trying to convince anyone of anything - I am just looking for Historical Evidence, (perhaps Justin Martyr) - of Early Christians / Jews - either supporting or refuting whether the "Last Supper" was a "Passover Feast".

@DickHarfield with respect, I've found the best objectivity is to be found in numbers, with different points of view with people who are all simply open to seeking a truth. regardless of who is right or wrong. This is just a discussion of ideas. I do not believe anyone invited you here to convince you of anything. (I invited you to ask a question the other day)

@DickHarfield AND IF - there was early christian consensus that the Last Supper was a Passover Feast - then it invokes severe objections, namely when Jesus Said: "My God why have you forsaken me / cut me off" - because given how they violated the Passover, (that day) - Scripture explicitly says they would have been cut off from the nation.

@elikakohen @JoshuaBigbee @DickHarfield - I am going to leave as well. Thanks for the discussion!

@BrianWeigand Thank you for your help!

@JoshuaBigbee Could you please keep helping with the Justin reference, and others? (Even later, I am still digesting).

@BrianWeigand THanks for the discussion, Brian

@BrianWeigand - do you still want the Preparation Day references?

@elikakohen Certainly, its like I said, it would depend on Justin's calendar. I see no reason not to think he is thinking of it in the same system we do. Which is why people will say Passover begins the night of the 14th. It makes sense to us, but is completely wrong in rabbinic system.

@JoshuaBigbee Please don't misunderstand me. I was not criticising Elika's objectives nor suggesting that an exchange of ideas is not useful. @elikakohen invited me here to continue a discussion that began elsewhere. If I felt that I could contribute more than the existing participants then I would stay and participate. I simply say that I have covered all possible angles from my point of view and feel I personally can add no more of value.

@JoshuaBigbee You said: "If it was a Jewish ... Roman Day" .. A.) This is exactly my point; B.) But, regardless - the Passover Sacrifice was still eaten at night - and regardless, it would still have been a Sabbath - And if so - everyone, (including the Priests) - would have been breaking all kinds of Sabbath laws - which is implausible.

@DickHarfield I see, didn't know Elika invited you too :) I don't know if you missed the part about Justin Martyr though, he has a pretty strong statement on Passover and the passion. That's really what we were discussing

@elikakohen Before I go - I agree with your last point, which is why I said earlier, "Clearly, the author of John's Gospel was aware that the crucifixions could not take place on the Day of the Passover and so made a number of changes from the synoptic account, one of which was to place the crucifixion of Jesus on the day before the Passover. "

@JoshuaBigbee I agree Martyr pretty clearly says the LS was on the Passover. Although as I said to Elika, Martyr wasn't there and his opinion can only be derivative.

@DickHarfield That still hinges on the presumption that the Synoptics are saying the crucifixion was on the Day of the Passover. Which I still contend they do not. They clearly state it was the Day of Preparation, before the Sabbath. You cannot prepare for a weekly Sabbath on Passover. The problem is WITHIN the Synoptics. Not John.

@DickHarfield @DickHarfield - A.) I greatly appreciate your Origen quote, and Joshua's quote from Justin Martyr - this is my question; B.) Which is why I was asking about the Origen quote, (everything else led to this huge Red-Herring);

They seem to be aware of that as well. So the only thing that's a problem is that the Synoptics concurrently seem to say the Last Supper was on Passover. So that is why we are seeking to resolve the timing of the Last Supper in case we have simply misunderstood the Synoptics.

@JoshuaBigbee A.) I agree, they clearly state that it was on the Day of Preparation, (John says the Preparation Day of the Passover); B.) But, I don't agree that the Synoptics have the problem - C.) The issue might be US who may not understand that "the Day of the Passover" - could have been idiomatic, for "Time of the Passover", like "It's Christmas Time!"; D.) But early writers would certainly have noted the issue;

@JoshuaBigbee Jesus uses, "Day of" in reference to periods of time ... idiomatically - all the time. But, I don't know enough Greek to know if this extends to Holidays, (like the Passover Statements as well.)

@elikakohen C. Either way we're the problem I think. They were far more familiar with things when they wrote, especially the earlier Synoptics. It is much more likely that they took it for granted their audience was also familiar. But by John's time he was aware that familiarity was not there for everyone, so he removed confusing parts (not calling LS Passover) and clarified others (like you said in A)

@JoshuaBigbee - Dialogue with Trypho, in Greek: A.) Volume 1; and B.) Volume 2

@elikakohen Well done! That's some good Googling :P

You're look for chapter CXI btw ;)

@JoshuaBigbee But - in order to prove it is idiomatic - there is a large burden of proof - I have to find examples in ancient literature; B.) That is why I asked that question, separately: hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/22039/…

@JoshuaBigbee Volume 2, CXI - page 83.

@elikakohen Already there :P

Page. 83, Section 20, two lines from the bottom.

Get your Greek keyboard out....haven't had mine setup in a while

@JoshuaBigbee If I am not mistaken - it is very explicitly saying the same day.

Homois.

The "Also"

kai hoti en hemera tough paska sunelabete auton, kai homois en to paska : And also in the day of the passover you sieded him, and the same paska ... and the following two words I can't translate.

So you can establish Justin believes the arrest and crucifixion to take place on the Passover day. Which makes the LS (in his chronology) a Passover Feast the night before.

Wow - I came to the complete oppsosite.

@JoshuaBigbee A.) I think we agree - Justin is very clearly saying the two events happened on the same passover day.

I am very certain Jesus wasn't seized before midnight.

But, I need to remember why I think that. :p

No, remember what I said before? In Roman thought the Passover was eaten on the 14th. The fact that is wrong in Jewish thought doesn't change the timing. So while Justin does see it being the evening the day before - it is STILL the Passover meal

No no, Justin isn't saying WHEN they seized him, but that it was the same "Passover Day", (there are 7-8) of them.

@JoshuaBigbee Let me rephrase - AT THE VERY LEAST Justin is saying the two events occurred on the same "Passover Day".

?

@elikakohen I can't think of a comprehensive quote or verse, but it goes back to the first Passover and midnight. Later meals were finished before midnight. They couldn't leave before then.

All of the commands say to eat it in the evening - no question.

Some say to sacrifice it in the afternoon.

(twilight)

@elikakohen Ok, At the very least haha, but his first declaration of it being Day of Passover, seems he means....the DAY called Passover day.

Correct.

At this point - we can't know what kind of "Day" Justin was referring to, but that it was "The Day Called Passover".

@elikakohen I would contend that the Priests would not have done it in the middle of the weekly festival, they say as much in Mark 14:2 "lest there be an uproar from the people."

Technically, they could have after the first day - but this wasn't the priests - it was the "Rulers / Pharisees".

I've found most people read this the first time as meaning they will wait till it's over. But then you realize there was time for them to do it before and I believe this was them saying "let's hurry up and do it before" not "let's wait"

(A different discussion).

The High Priest explicitly indicated that Jesus would need to die for the people, and for all the people.

The only way that makes any sense - is if it coincided with the Passover Sacrifice.

@JoshuaBigbee But these two premises are mutually exclusive: A.) That the Sacrifice occurred DURING the Day; B.) AND that they had already eaten the Passover;

@elikakohen I agree that the "fullest" scenario puts the Crucifixion at the time of the Passover lamb's slaughter.....OH. And I think Justin agrees, at least symbolically.

I just need to establish that the Passover Sacrifice happened during the Day / Dusk - which I think is simple./

Trypho - Chapter 40 "that lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb, which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross."

@elikakohen At the least we have attestation that it was the courtly tradition at the time of Christ to do it at the 9th hour. Whether Essenes then or Karaites now disagree is irrelevant.

@elikakohen Also, in support of what I was saying about the 14th being Passover meal night to the non-Jews: reformedanswers.org/answer.asp/file/39733 The quartodecimans would agree.

@JoshuaBigbee Wow.

@elikakohen But not all agreed with them. You can get this for free. I just found it and browsing it now. Very interesting at the least: play.google.com/store/books/details/…

@JoshuaBigbee That link isn't the answer to the question - but Pretty much every reference in that article is - it certainly answer the question for Early Historical Accounts of these beliefs.

@JoshuaBigbee Would you mind adding all of this as an answer - including the reference from Justin Martyr? Regardless if they all agreed or not, doesn't matter. I was specifically hoping for references for both points of view.

@JoshuaBigbee I can't thank you enough - if it was eligible for a bounty, I would gladly do it. :D

@JoshuaBigbee Thank you again!

@JoshuaBigbee Also - this will be very useful for answering the "Idiomatic" question. :D

Give me some time I'll put an answer up.

@JoshuaBigbee Thanks!

@elikakohen Also, I wanted to make sure there were no misunderstandings in regard to that Meta Q&A and our comments. I was only trying to play out the repercussions. If I misunderstood or said anything too strongly I apologize, know that I meant only to be constructive.

@JoshuaBigbee Would you mind interpreting the last two words of Justin's sentence in Greek, (your translation)?

oh shoot I'm going to have to dig out my anamorphic lexicon aren't I? :P

@JoshuaBigbee I understood where your comments were coming from. However, I think people may not understand someone who "questions all presuppositions".

@JoshuaBigbee Oh no - then I think I misunderstood - when you said you looked at the Greek, and also believed it was "the same Passover Day" (whatever that means) - did you infer that from your own understanding of the Greek?

the ..."estaurosate, gegraptai" part?

@elikakohen I hadn't looked at the Greek yet at that point, but the translation did it justice I think as you pointed out. It could have been even stronger saying "Same" instead of "also"

@JoshuaBigbee Yep. .... but it was the kai homiohs toh paskha - in the genitive, that I understood to be referring to /the same day/. But I do not know if homiohs is required to agree in gender with "day / feminine" ... and if homiOHS - is feminine or neuter, (Paskha is neuter, I think).

I'm honestly rusty on the Greek and am not really up to translating whole complex sentences anymore. I can visually understand, remember most words or figure them out from knowing the letters, and I can find them or their form in my lexicon. That's about it.

@elikakohen That's why I got the lexicon I have :) has every form and parses all the info for each.

homiohs is an adverb, and apparently a particle and not inflectable.

biblehub.com/greek/3668.htm

@JoshuaBigbee /Facedesk ... Did you read footnote 22, on page 83? In footnote 23, what is the reference to ***c. 40, I**** ?

@elikakohen No I didn't....but that's what I was referring to earlier. WHen he talks about Christ being the lamb.

Scroll up :P

Ah, Chapter 40, line 1. Facepalm. newadvent.org/fathers/01283.htm

@elikakohen However, the editor's comment on line 22 is rather interesting...I mean...I agree with him, but I don't see how Justin is saying that.

I just looked it up. I can find Jewish authorities to confirm the 3rd hour statement ... and also that "Evening" literally means "Between the Evenings", 3pm.

but - you are right - its hard to see that Justin is arguing that.

en hamara tou pascha?

yes, but I am not certain if "homois / same" is referring to "Day" or "Passover"

@JoshuaBigbee Those last two words just became very important: estaurosate γέγραπται ... But "estaurosate" may be from "to eat" - which is ἐσθίω - ... the same passover to be eaten as it was written.

I have yet to confirm the root of estaurosate - but if it is "eat" - then there is no question to what Justin meant.

@elikakohen It is the "As it was written," that the English translation moved to the start of the sentence?

Yeah, but it is "crucified" σταυρόω

oh nevermind, Justin even has a comma there. hah not used to those.

Yes was just going to say that. THe English translation would suggest its soemthing to do with Crucify, that's all that's left.

THat's...First aorist active indicative?

second person plural. so..."you(all) did/have crucified"

e|stauro|s|ate

I learned Greek in a slightly different method than the old style. We learned all the forms, prefixes, suffixes, etc. So give me any Greek word and I can chop it up with my 10 year old cheat sheet I found 40 minute ago hahaha

When I studied Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic at a Christian College - I had to incredibly known teachers - and I had to give up arguing with them about syntaax.

Kinda wished that I had paid more attention. Well, I did - it just wasn't very consistent - and so, I started trying to learn "organically" - by conversation, and immersion. So - I am very, very, bad at lexical analysis.

@elikakohen See, I reaaallly appreciated the formulaic nature of Greek. Works well for me. My vocab is bad from little to no practice in 8 years, but with a quick review of my verbal forms sheet I was just able to parse a word that I wouldn't have known the meaning of if you hadn't told me :)

@JoshuaBigbee Justin argues that the lamb was placed on a spit, like jesus was hung on a cross. I traced Justin's "crucify" to the Hebrew תָּלָה - and cannot find it in Scripture in reference to the Passover Lamb.

I've actually read that before elsewhere. that it was impaled lengthwise and then across. But while it was a nice anecdote I didn't see any reference. So when I read chapter 40 I was pleasantly surprised. But it could still use Jewish reference for sure.

I'm betting Justin is the source of where I first read about it.

By the way, this is an entirely different, but related, rabbit-hole: I considered whether we are understanding the rabbinic calendar day system wrong. history.stackexchange.com/questions/28143/…

@JoshuaBigbee Just realized - Justin seems to contradict "The Preparation Day"... I actually think you said that already.

@elikakohen Yup. But its the 14th to him, so I'm not sure how that relates exactly. I'm assuming it was the afternoon of the 14th for both Jew and Roman and then the meal that night of the 14th still for the Roman but technically the start of the 15th for the Jew. So...that's fine Its still the preparation day its just not a whole calendar day before. They would have had that whole 12 hour day(light) to prepare for evening.

But to the Roman preparation day is thrown out since its ALL the 14th. no distinction necessary.

@JoshuaBigbee I added a comment to your post on the History.Stack - I hope it is helpful, though I am sure it doesn't account for how helpful you have been.

@JoshuaBigbee Just remember - A.) There was a HUGE division between the Sadducees / Priests and Rabbinicism/Pharasaic Judaism; B.) The episode with Ben Meir, also involved Saadia Gaon, Ibn Ezra - and even Karaite Judaism; C.) From about that point onwards - Rabbinical Judaism revised the calendar, and pre-computated calendar days - etc, contrary to the Scriptural commands / and the Sadducees.

@elikakohen Right, I just want to be sure where the overlap is happening and which day corresponds with the other.

Its almost too obvious that the Jewish day just starts 6 hours prior to its Roman counterpart, but I hate to assume

Check out the link that I posted in your history question.

It will give you all kinds of reasons not to make that assumption.

@elikakohen oh dear I really must get to bed. But I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed our chat this evening. I will check those out for sure.

Thank you very much for your patience - and I am going through all of these references. Will likely keep me occupied for - ever.

@elikakohen I believe there are also comments by Irenaeus about the passover celebration being on the 14th, but I have yet to find the direct source from Irenaeus, just translated quotations. "the many bishops of Asia and the East, who WITH THE JEWS CELEBRATED THE PASSOVER on the fourteenth day of the new moon"(NPNF, 2nd, III, p.370).

Gah! Goodnight!

Numbers 33:3 - They journeyed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the next day after the Passover the sons of Israel started out boldly in the sight of all the Egyptians,

@JoshuaBigbee Joshua - I went ahead and "formalized" the "Calendar Question" from what you posted in History.Stack - to Hermeneutics.Stack - I hope I did it justice, Feel free to Edit!: hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/22060/…