Puzzles Etc.

question_asker

19:00

I mean, technically anything we tried would be limiting at some level

there's nothing "everyone" can do other than post an answer

Gordon Allocman

I mean there is nothing to formally gain from winning besides maybe internet bragging rights, so I don't think it is that big of a deal

question_asker

right

Gordon Allocman

ugghh I was just reading the meta post about external links in answers, and the answer mixed up Java and Javascript, as did the question used as an example...

Deusovi

:/

Gordon Allocman

I'm really tempted to edit it to fix it in both, but don't really want to bump the old question

question_asker

19:13

what's up deusovi

Deusovi

hey!

i just got a notification from last night about my chess fortnight puzzle

question_asker

I just remembered a question I'd completely forgotten about that I knew hadn't been solved

Deusovi

hm?

question_asker

this is the first time since before the graduation that I've put up a bounty

7

Q: What have we lost?(a cipher of indeterminate value)

A strange man in a bow tie with a serious comb-over left you this: "A simple cipher," he says, "and I leave it to you to find out what has been lost." Can you?

cryptograms

Gordon Allocman

meh it was bugging me so I fixed it

Deusovi

19:14

ooh

looks like an abugida (a script where some letters are diacritics)

question_asker

yeah I thought about that

there's a "tilde" over a flower-looking character, and then there's a flower-looking character with a little u-shaped bit underneath it, and there's that "dome" thing that seems to be grouping certain characters

Deusovi

i think we should transcribe it first

hm

not sure what it could mean for multiple characters to be domed though

question_asker

it would be good to get a transcription so that we can verify with the OP that those two are different characters (or the same, as the case may be)

Deusovi

they definitely look the same

question_asker

(I'm sure there are others but those two jumped out at me)

Gordon Allocman

19:20

I see an &, a shittier backwards one, a backwards fancy 'a', some waves, @, a flower, and a star

question_asker

one looks more curvy to me but I want to be sure that's just an artifact of them being handwritten rather than an intentional difference

Gordon Allocman

oh also that calculus 's' symbol

Deusovi

the integral sign

yeah

Gordon Allocman

that one

and an alpha

question_asker

I think the "shittier backwards &" is more like a treble clef

cbronson

19:21

puzzling.stackexchange.com/questions/33393/… Do you guys think my questions was too difficult or just uninteresting? I'm looking forward to making more puzzles but I'd like to avoid the both!

Deusovi

hey cbronson! we're currently working on a different puzzle but I'll definitely take a look after this one

Gordon Allocman

I personally had no idea where to start on it

cbronson

@Deusovi ok, thank you!

Gordon Allocman

but thats not saying much

question_asker

I'm thinking it's probably ultimately just a regular ol substitution cipher, right?

Deusovi

19:22

i think it might be phonetic

question_asker

(though the grouping symbols might screw with that)

hmm

I'm wondering if the combover/bowtie part of the description is supposed to be a clue or just flavor

Deusovi

reminds me of doctor who

question_asker

yeah

Deusovi

although i know literally nothing of doctor who other than "whooshy time travel noises from a phone booth"

i'm gonna make up a semi-arbitrary transcription system: first line is Z ATZ (B_N) D_TO@TF MC STO LY

Gordon Allocman

and fangirls, don't forget fangirls

Deusovi

19:25

(unless we're gonna just ask OP for a transcription)

wait, i might need to rethink some of my symbols

cbronson

@Deusovi are you sure the first symbol and the 4th are the same>

*?

Deusovi

there seem to be five diacritics: vertical bar, horizontal bar, cup, star, and dot

five diacritics, five vowels?

oh wait there's also tilde

6 diacritics

question_asker

yeah

Deusovi

(six vowels including Y?)

(unless it's phonetic)

question_asker

and (from comments) what looks like punctuation (e.g., commas) is punctuation, and I think we can assume the / is a word separator

Deusovi

19:27

yeah that slash is definitely a word separator

question_asker

dot and cup are only below, star and tilde are only above, right?

Deusovi

yep

question_asker

also the dome sometimes has things beneath it and sometimes stands alone

Deusovi

yeah, the dome is weird

no idea how to deal with it

cbronson

Maybe the dome is useful after decryption

Deusovi

19:30

ooh, maybe

but then why would there be empty domes?

Wesley Situ

the empty part is a character too i believe

cbronson

Good question. I don't see any two empty domes next to each other so perhaps they're spaces

Wesley Situ

second image third line has @_ under a dome

Gordon Allocman

there are 2 domes next to each other

2nd to last line of first image

cbronson

I meant two empty domes

Deusovi

19:32

but there are so few empty domes

Wesley Situ

the dome could also be another character

theres a dome inside of a dome on the second line of the second image

Gordon Allocman

It's tough to know whether domes always have 2 things under them and the empty ones have 2 spaces, or just one

Deusovi

and we already had pretty much agreed slashes were spaces

cbronson

Nevermind, completely missed the dome within a dome.

question_asker

ah, that's a good point, empty domes may actually include two spaces

and seeing the dome as its own character (maybe??) makes more sense to me than it purely being a modifier (unless, again, "empty" domes actually have 1 or 2 spaces in them)

Deusovi

19:35

yeah, it's not purely a modifier

cbronson

@Deusovi are you working on the transcription?

Deusovi

but then we need to figure out why it's grouping some characters

Wesley Situ

the dome as a character only exists at the end of words

Deusovi

currently trying to figure out how to transcribe

question_asker

all I could figure was that, under a dome, maybe the "letters" sound different than they would otherwise?

Deusovi

19:36

maybe it's voiced vs unvoiced?

question_asker

yeah I was thinking that

but then, that would really only apply (assuming, of course, we're translating into english here) to like... 'th'?

Deusovi

unless it's phonetic

Gordon Allocman

@Deusovi for the cryptic clue one, do you think sinks vessels could be Subs? as in submerges and submarines

Deusovi

then, S vs Z, SH vs ZH (the sound in meaSure), T vs D, P vs B...

@GordonAllocman: i think the "sinks" part of that is kinda flimsy

Gordon Allocman

yeah true

cbronson

19:39

The page is folded in thirds. We get the first 2/3 in the first image and the last 1/3 in the second image. I wonder if there's a purpose to that. Maybe separate ciphers?

Deusovi

oh god i hope not

question_asker

@Deusovi right, the only reason I'm restricting it to 'th' is because there are (assuming a space counts as a character) always two 'letters' under the dome, and it seems unlikely to use two characters to represent a single consonant, especially if that consonant is meant to be read as unvoiced by default

Deusovi

it says A cipher, not cipherS

cbronson

Very true

Maybe he just couldnt fit the whole paper in one shot

Wesley Situ

well to start on the deciphering after we've got it transcribed, the third part is a question, so the first word should be how/what/when/etc

Deusovi

19:40

that's what i was thinking @cb

@q_a, i thought that things under the dome were always voiced, and the domes just enclosed multiple voiced characters if they happened to be adjacent

(ignoring vowels)

cbronson

But then how would you explain 2nd line, 2nd character

2nd page

Gordon Allocman

Basins are both sinks and vessels but that is really single definition :P

Deusovi

dome by itself would be a separate thing

cbronson

Ok gotcha

Deusovi

yeah, that's what i was worried about too Gordon

Gordon Allocman

19:41

Idk why but I read the cipher right to left

Deusovi

punctuation

can't be RTL

question_asker

out of curiosity, I tried detexify on that "bird" glyph

Gordon Allocman

yeah I know, its just weird that that was my instinct

question_asker

in case these were all actual symbols

but no luck with that one

Deusovi

bird glyph?

also, shapecatcher might be better

question_asker

19:43

(I mean they're all 'actual symbols' but you know what I mean)

"bird glyph" - first picture, end of third line, before comma

it reminds me of (the head of) a bird, beak pointing "northeast"ish

cbronson

@question_asker I can see that once you point it out lol

Gordon Allocman

the curved "triangle" reminds me of a company logo but I can't seem to figure out which one

cbronson

@GordonAllocman the one on page 1, first line, 2nd to last?

question_asker

haha I was calling that "curly lambda" in my head

Gordon Allocman

no 5th on first page first line

Deusovi

19:45

when i start transcribing, how should i handle diacritics?

yeah, so was i q_a

Gordon Allocman

vertical strikethrough appears to be a diacritic

Lord of dark

Deusovi

yeah, we have six diacritics

question_asker

@Deusovi I'd go with like "cup-zigzag" or "star-sheaf"

Deusovi

vertical, horizontal, dot, star, cup, tilde

question_asker

19:47

i.e., diacritic, hyphen, name of thing (whatever shorthand you want to use for each character)

Lord of dark

I have tried to color the same characters (I just don't care about diatrics on it)

Gordon Allocman

this logo is going to drive me crazy....

Lord of dark

this 3 symbols appear 3 times onthe first page

Deusovi

?

Lord of dark

it could be "the"

Deusovi

19:48

ooh, maybe

question_asker

yeah

Deusovi

diacritics probably aren't vowels now that i think about it

since there are words without them

Gordon Allocman

Lord of dark

4* times

Gordon Allocman

what logo looks like this?

question_asker

19:49

[cup-o, zigzag, curly a] shows up more than once, too

Wesley Situ

@GordonAllocman if you turn it 90 degrees counter clockwise and put it on a diet, it'll be similar to tesla's logo

question_asker

it reminds me of something too

Gordon Allocman

i think the logo is like a person-thing shaped like that

question_asker

oh

Lord of dark

Middleone looks like a vowel (it is first character) so I think this can't be "the" @question_asker

question_asker

19:52

worth mentioning that integral symbol (or IPA /sh/) shows up on its own

Deusovi

hey @Emrakul and @feelinferrety!

question_asker

so THAT might be a vowel, making [sh/integral, trebleclef, o] "and"

user61230

Dropped a meta question some people here might be interested in!

user61230

@Deusovi 'ello!

feelinferrety

Hey

Lord of dark

19:54

but thereis almost no "integral" it is strange if itisa a

question_asker

@Emrakul VOTED

@Lordofdark true - 'integral' shows up a) on its own, b) grouped with trebleclef and o, and c) grouped with just trebleclef under a dome

ps hope the two of you who just joined enjoy completely inscrutable talk about symbol decryption

user61230

my favorite

cbronson

lol

question_asker

oh crud/nice, time to leave work

Lord of dark

I can see 3 stand alone characters : the first ("3"), the "integral" and "gamma"

( is this a gamma ? line 3 character 3 ?)

Deusovi

19:59

currently transcribing, by the way

Lord of dark

what are stand alone letters in english ? "a" , "I" ?

Deusovi

yep, just A and I

cbronson

But how do we know the message is in perfect english, right? It could use "B" for be, "C" for see and so on

Lord of dark

well the "3" never stand alone without diatrics so I guess they are playing role in it

Gordon Allocman

well I have officially been driven insane trying to figure out what logo I am thinking of...

cbronson

20:02

@GordonAllocman lol

Gordon Allocman

its like a folded paper with a head or something

cbronson

The logo?

Deusovi

first three lines transcribed:

Z- AT-Z (R_N) D_TOETJ-, B|C STO L[V?],

STO ETF Z- Z_TO-Z-O (R-Z)F

LT G D|TV O_BQ T|Z D|TV V|T- TB

zigzaggy 3: Z
weird curly A: A
treble clef: T
manta ray: R
dome character: N
delta: D
circle: O
@: E
curly J: J
beak pointing northeast: B
curly spiral: C
weird lambda: L
wheat: V
integral sign: S
flower: F
gamma: G
big dome: ()
double circle: Q

(diacritics go after symbols they're on)

Gordon Allocman

yeah the logo. kinda reminds me of blanket from brave little toaster

convinces self that was it and moves on with life

cbronson

@Deusovi last character, first line, first page. Doesn't look like the "wheat". It appears again page 2, line 2, 9th char

Deusovi

20:08

hm, I'll use two different symbols for the two then

thought they were the same and the first was a mistake

cbronson

Yeah that's what I thought but all of the wheats have the distinctively separate top part

Deusovi

i've responded to the meta question, by the way

1

A: Should we disable the "math problem" close reason?

No. I don't think we should. We get things that are blatantly homework fairly frequently, and taking away that close reason would only mean that we'd use the custom close reason option to close the questions anyway. That being said, I do think we need to more precisely define what a "math proble...

Gordon Allocman

Am i missing something or did this guy answer with the same thing after someone else and get 9 upvotes?? puzzling.stackexchange.com/a/33640/21031

Deusovi

yep

happens all the time on riddles

Gordon Allocman

but why... it wasn't like a few minutes, it was like 30

Deusovi

20:19

yep

Gordon Allocman

shouldn't that just get deleted since its basically stealing the answer from someone else?

Deusovi

yeah but we can't delete it without a mod

Gordon Allocman

I think it is worth flagging at least

Deusovi

welcome back, q_a

Gordon Allocman

I flagged because that's pretty bull, that guys doesn't deserve 88 rep for that crap

also he annoyingly put the actual answer at the bottom, but that is neither here not there

Deusovi

20:26

hey q_a, you didn't downvote my answer o:

question_asker

@Deusovi you know, it's funny. You and I have opposite opinions re: how permissive we should be, but end up coming (usually) to similar conclusions

Deusovi

yeah - i'm usually much stricter than you (probably since i'm an avid fan of puzzle hunts, where everything has been testsolved and the puzzles are generally pretty high quality)

but we both agree the disparity sucks

question_asker

Yeah. Ultimately I don't mind strictness as long as it's consistently strict (and well-defined)

(Ok the truth is probably more complicated than that but close enough)

Deusovi

transcription done

Z- AT-Z (R_N) D_TOETJ-, B|C STO LY,

STO ETF Z- Z_TO-Z-O (R-Z)F

LT G D|TV O_BQ T|Z D|TV V|T- TB

S O_ZA JR*DO STO S W_LZ

Z_Q L() ET GU_(RQ) EW W*Z-D*VR()

LT Z*T(FZ) J|DO STO ZR*(F),

@Z LT (R-) T D.F QU.T (Z*D*)() R|CZQ

EW F_ZDB (CJ)A-O CUT-OQ

-----------

LT OZ|ZQB Q.H~FZ T*VR()

(B_D) B|C STO LY LT QDF~U Z-T{} O|ZT

(E) UF~() F_JR E(R-Z) (R-Z-),

B|CZ O_ZA R_LZ ET B|CZ ZR*(F) T*VR(V|Z)T

STO H*T- Z_Q (ST)VD-O W_LZ?

5

cbronson

Will you be posting this as a partial answer so we don't lose it in the text logs?

Deusovi

20:34

yep!

cbronson

And awesome!

Gordon Allocman

heh now everyone looking at the starboard will be pretty confused evil laughter ensues

thats weird, SE is telling me I reached my daily vote limit, but I have neither the 30 or 40 votes badge

nvm probably just delay

Wesley Situ

21:18

@Deusovi On line 3, second to last character, and on line 8, third to last character, those are a different character than the treble clef. They're like the character represented by U, but flipped

Deusovi

21:32

@WesleySitu: Fixed, thank you!

Wesley Situ

theres a few more occurences other than just those two if you also saw those

or at least i thought i saw one.... which ive now lost

Gordon K

@GordonAllocman Well done. The intended fish for #1 was the Round Whitefish [S]almonidae, #8 was supposed to be a bicolor goatfish, but all goatfish are in the same family and #7 was the Broadband Dogfish, but you got the correct family for that one with your black dogfish.

Neon612

@GordonK Broadband.... I get it :P

Lord of dark

22:10

What is the classic step after transcrition ? identify letters <-> symbols ?

Wesley Situ

something like that. either letter substitution or phonetic substitution.

Lord of dark

ok. I guess a classic method then is to identify vowelsand classic short word (such as "the" / "and"...)

LeppyR64

23:34

What's the madness over there on the starboard?

Deusovi

i pressed random keys and people liked it

(nah, it's a transcription of a cipher)

3 hours ago, by Gordon Allocman

heh now everyone looking at the starboard will be pretty confused evil laughter ensues

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