Moonwards

MolbOrg

00:15

@kimholder :DDDDDD

MolbOrg

00:32

need some impression, feedback
>Let's assume that sandbox is existing, which name it has. God Emperor Simulator. The Universe 9000. Moon 3000. The road to K2. OR what?

It should probably be a The Universe 9001.

kim holder

01:22

heheheh

i like the sound of that conversation. but - i must eat dinner, watch The Blacklist, and spend time with hubby

so i will save it for tomorrow

MolbOrg

hey it's for my simulator ))))

kim holder

.oh, you are just deciding on a name?

i like The Universe 9001

MolbOrg

02:34

)) yeah, just wished some input purely based on names. and disclosing as less as possible to not influence the impression.
However, if you wish some discussion on a name for your simulator, and it is not the moonward, hm it is interesting to discuss. I honestly was under impression moonwards for everything, but ... hm never thought about that

kim holder

03:14

oh, it is moonwards for everything. i just recall that not very long ago you were wanting to discuss a pretty major philosophical difference, and i thought you were coming back to that.

i didn't realize you were just asking about the name,

MolbOrg

ah, no I'm way past that point of philosophical difference, it complex issue, it hard to explain to people, I tested that on other people and probably it is not necessary for you.
I have more practical problems to solve and not that much time to do so.

so it shifts for better times and all that, if it will be required

Hohmannfan

13:36

alias prod='rsync -avh -e ssh --size-only moonwards.com/ [email protected]:moonwards.com'

@kimholder Perhaps you want this?

kim holder

14:45

@Hohmannfan what does that do?

Hohmannfan

Then you can just run "prod" to push the current build to the site.

It only pushes changed files.

kim holder

oh, neat....

yes, i'll try that today

Hohmannfan

I used filezilla for a while, because the ftp program kinda sucks. But after learning about ssh, scp and rsync I prefer the terminal again.

Also, the HTML5 tag of the day: <datalist>. Can be added inside <input> to have a list of autocomplete values.

kim holder

15:22

handy. i have yet to actually write a form...

kim holder

15:50

@Hohmannfan a thought based on my struggle with the reentry question - would it be worthwhile to set up a variant of your suborbital hop app to plot the descent trajectory of objects dropped from the foot of a tether?

Hohmannfan

That can be worked into the tether tool.

kim holder

ooo - fancy :)

Hohmannfan

(do calculation)
draw svg::path::a
draw svg::circle#planet on top of that.

kim holder

i tried for a while to set it up yesterday in geogebra, actually... but it was just too much of a learning curve to take on in the brief time i could justify spending on it.

because there is all this about angle as it passes the upper atmosphere, and the speed at impact is already there... can it get a read-out of angles too?

Hohmannfan

Sure.

kim holder

15:55

that's so awesome...

Hohmannfan

16:44

@kimholder Now it plots the trajectory. Just plotting, I am not outputting data yet.

kim holder

ok, pulling it

Hohmannfan

Would it be cool to have a drag-able node along the tether so you can view arbitrary release trajectories?

kim holder

oh. Yes, it would :]

Hohmannfan

Then I need to figure out how to draw hyperbolas is svg

The specification for svg unfortunately excludes the most obvious way, that is, to have an ellipse with negative radii: "If rx or ry have negative signs, these are dropped; the absolute value is used instead."

kim holder

it does sort of seem like it should be part of it

git did a merge when i pulled... i don't know why...

moving on

Hohmannfan

16:50

Looks like parabolic curves can be drawn with quadratic Bezier curves. Nothing about hyperbolas though.

And old favourite of mine: redblobgames.com. An excellent resource for implementation of svg stuff.

Especially Interactive tutorial about making interactive tutorials

kim holder

oh, awesome

i have high hopes i'll need it in the next, uh, two years...

Hohmannfan

Webdev_irl: turns out you need to learn more stuff. Repeat.

kim holder

i'm wondering about making it possible to zoom on the tether graphic

Hohmannfan

Yeah, that is pretty simple, I can just hook up the controls to some js that injects animate events to the root svg and the viewBox property.

Much simpler than with a canvas.

What type of zoom controls would you like?

kim holder

17:07

uh, is there a usual way? is the option buttons or mouse / touch?

speaking of which, i should check out the site again on my tablet...

(which completely chokes on the Sketchfab models, that disappointed me)

Hohmannfan

I am not good with javascript touch-events, just saying. It also doesn't help that I can't test it.

kim holder

ah. buttons seem probably better, actually

although it would still mean you need to be able to drag it around with your mouse, or by touching your screen

this reminds me - George? that guy with the Acting Showcase website? i have a phone call scheduled with him in a week.

he's away right now and he has a busy week ahead, so in a week

Hohmannfan

Sliders is also a possibility

kim holder

yep

Hohmannfan

kim holder

17:12

i'm just wondering how much control one needs.

maybe something longer than that, for controlling the point of release

Hohmannfan

I am using the Gnome css modifications defaults in Firefox, so the basic input::type="range" entity looks like that and is pretty touch device friendly.

What does it look like for you? (screenshot on /engineSearch.html)

kim holder

oh look, a graphing tool...

neat!

Hohmannfan

Of course it has a graphing tool :D

kim holder

these tools really need to be presented better / more on the learn page

i'm behind on reviewing new contributions, i see

Hohmannfan

The situation now is that only the old crappy tools are on the learn page because they are small and embeddable.

kim holder

17:21

yes. not the best way to draw people in.

well, i think i am now in the 'review whole website and do updates' part of my plan for the next few months, so i'll look at that

after i make some og: image images

@550AU which reminds me to say, the Kilopower page looks awesome.

Hohmannfan

Link?

kim holder

github.com/briligg/moonwards/wiki/…

Hohmannfan

Top notch quality.

Shouldn't that also be on the live site?

kim holder

well, my idea was to maybe start linking to the wiki when we have a good article. After all, we want a central resource that caters to developers.

that article will really help me build the nuclear reactor model

Hohmannfan

So a staging area that does not require in-depth knowledge of the internal page-building process?

kim holder

17:27

i'd like it to me where people who might do that sort of thing discuss things

and yes, that

i am not sure if github really works well for working with different proposals for models

it can still use the branch model, but those files get large

which brings us to the points MolbOrg was making about the size of the repo

Hohmannfan

I have to say, I am not yet very familiar with the relevant css classes myself for writing articles on the site.

kim holder

yeah, why even get into that with people who are volunteering their time?

wikis are standard. make life easy.

i can figure out how to link to those things nicely, in an inviting way.

Hohmannfan

@kimholder Yeah, the history contains some awfully large files. If somebody clones the repo without limiting the depth, they have a large download to look forward to.

kim holder

i like that deep clean idea he linked to. however, once again, it probably shouldn't be me who makes the call on that, or does it.

but even then - if we are handling model development through the repo, we'll be back into a large repo quickly

Hohmannfan

650 MB already O_o

kim holder

17:35

yes, i'm sure we could easily get that below 100 MB with a clean

after that, would having a whole bunch of blender files in the range of 500 to 5000 KB mean it grows again quickly, if they are being changed?

Hohmannfan

Considering git probably can't save meaningful deltas for blender files, the repo approximately grows with that size for every upload/change.

kim holder

yeah... awkward...

i think i need to look for existing collaboration platforms specifically for that

Hohmannfan

gist.github.com/nk9/b150542ef72abc7974cb

kim holder

looks good

but that is just for what there is right? not the commit record

Hohmannfan

It searches the record.

kim holder

17:43

ok

oh, there is an associated blog post

stubbisms.wordpress.com/2009/07/10/…

Hohmannfan

Also useful, after the first script: stackoverflow.com/questions/223678/which-commit-has-this-blob

kim holder

would it make sense to start using github's issue function to create todo list items?

i always found it a bit awkward to use the todo list you started, that would make it a lot more visible

There is also the project function, for larger things

for that matter, let me open an issue regarding cleaning...

Hohmannfan

Our largest file was deleted on May 28, 2016 ...

It takes 94MB

kim holder

github.com/briligg/moonwards/issues/28

what was it?

ah, i bet i know - a version of the gallery habs

Hohmannfan

GalleryLalandeStripped.blend.zip

kim holder

17:55

yep...

and that was, indeed, stripped down from something much larger

Hohmannfan

The second largest one is just 30MB, blenderstuff/LalandeAdvancedMasterMay11.blend.zip

It was deleted June 18, 2016

kim holder

because you protested :]

but people will occasionally need resources like that, big things, if development of the colony starts happening through the repo

there could be a section of the website for those things

a really good video that covers a large part of the crater needs that file

or, at least, the improved version of it... right now it's pretty raw.

but i don't think i can get its size down to less than... maybe a third...

Hohmannfan

largestFiles.py to find ... duh, large files.
findBlob.sh to find their history.
gitg to find commit information.
Those tools are useful.

@kimholder We need large files. Period. The question is just how to handle them.

The git repo is probably not the place.

kim holder

(kim notices once again how the important task list just grows and grows...)

Hohmannfan

Having them on the server is the straight forward solution.

Then they are accessible for download from Moonwards.com

kim holder

18:01

yeah

i am not sure that resolves the issue of how best to develop models, when that process becomes collaborative.

Hohmannfan

We need an upload feature.

But allowing random strangers on the internet to upload arbitrary files to your server sounds like BadIdea(TM)

So we need some kind of login

I am scared of file uploads and user input. I see almost daily how webapps posted to reddit get code injections and must be taken down.

kim holder

well, it would be quite a while before it should be expanded to random strangers

i'm thinking more about a github approach, that works better for blender files

9

A: Working in a group blender project

Version control for blender There is no special version control system for blender. Your three main choices are git, Mercurial, and SVN. While I have used git for blender projects and it works (here is a game that was created in a group and was version controlled in git) it is not the best suit...

Hohmannfan

Perhaps a "moonwards-models" repo? After all, most work on the website does not require the 3D models at all. And the other way, too.

kim holder

yes, i thought about that. let me watch this 90 minute video linked to in that answer above.

but first - i make that default og:image file, and a few others.

Hohmannfan

Out of the loop: what is an og:image?

kim holder

18:13

this is not an immediate issue. though - i will open another issue to document it so i don't lose track

oh - og:image is a file that gets parsed by twitter, facebook, and google+ as something to add to posts linking to a website

it makes a big difference to how often someone who sees something like that will click on the link

Hohmannfan

I see.

kim holder

MolbOrg posted 2 such posts he came across on facebook, without that image

and he set up the inclusion of that in the head of all the pages

Hohmannfan

I can see it in commonHeadElements.html

kim holder

github.com/briligg/moonwards/issues/29

Hohmannfan

Github sends me an email each time a new issue is opened.

kim holder

18:20

probably not a bad thing

Hohmannfan

...every time an issue is opened somewhere on Github :P

kim holder

what?

Hohmannfan

No :P

Nice looking css: r/itsaunixsystem on reddit

kim holder

oh yeah, nice

Hohmannfan

Not exactly nice looking css: r/ooer on reddit

kim holder

18:26

.... did you bait me there?

bad Hoh

actually, from a certain perspective, it is extremely well done

gets its message across effectively :)

Hohmannfan

kim holder

ah, yes. :P

ok, for the first time this week, i can work on something that is sufficiently simple i can play music at the same time.

Hohmannfan

18:41

~6x as active.

kim holder

yeah, i know. i imagine that is why we've started getting people dropping in.

Hohmannfan

The Pod Bay started to decline after ~ left.

kim holder

yes. it was an excellent thing to have someone so knowledgeable there most of the time.

i actually sort of wish our chat didn't show up on the chat room page first. It shouldn't get confused with SX.SE's main chat.

that might be worth a meta question on Meta.SE

Hohmannfan

It says "about moonwards.com and the Virtual Moon Colony project" while The Pod Bay says "General discussion for space.stackexchange.com/";. Not very unclear

kim holder

well, but there are people like me, who don't read the fine print. they figure the first one must be the one they want.

in fact, for me, that subtitle is a little hard to read

Hohmannfan

18:49

We can make the room name very short so it is hard to click on mobile devices. That would solve the problem.

kim holder

:D

MolbOrg

@Hohmannfan probably --size-only is no good here, let it check thing by its own means

Hohmannfan

@MolbOrg Building the site gives a new timestamp to every file. Then every file is uploaded.

MolbOrg

--checksum

Hohmannfan

Doing a checksum would be awfully slow server side.

@kimholder I checked what you are allowed to name rooms. They can literally be named just a dot. All whitespace characters are refused.

kim holder

18:59

that's good to know...

Hohmannfan

…

kim holder

don't you have some anime to watch or something?

Hohmannfan

That would save some space in chat, yeah :)

kim holder

:P

these charset games are hobbies of the coder kind

MolbOrg

after pul some changes and build
rsync -r -a -v
sent 1,465,662 bytes received 2,114 bytes 2,935,552.00 bytes/sec
total size is 61,716,604 speedup is 42.05
after make
sent 1,465,541 bytes received 2,114 bytes 2,935,310.00 bytes/sec
total size is 61,716,604 speedup is 42.05

so it sends about 1.4MB. that size checking - changed typo and then wonder why that change in no reflected

Hohmannfan

19:08

@MolbOrg Post a new command for kim.

kim holder

19:20

is it the same but replace rsync -avh with rsynch -r -a -v?

MolbOrg

no, basically it is the same just omit that size check part

alias prod='rsync -avh -e ssh moonwards.com/ [email protected]:moonwards.com'
it is irrelevant if you do not care if it is 1.4MB or 20kB, and do not wish miss replacement which do not change size

-avh is equivalent to -a -v -h or -a -vh

Hohmannfan

@kimholder Just for the record, you know about .bashrc, right?

kim holder

no....

i was just looking up rsync

Hohmannfan

Ok. you have to add the aliasing command to .bashrc in order to still have the alias next time you boot up the machine.

MolbOrg

As about blender files and such, just make a second repo for data, when (if) it will begin to be a problem then solve it.
there is such thing as submodules if you wish to keep everything in one directory and you basically can have one repo per each model if you wish so

kim holder

19:27

oh ok. hah. i just added the command to a short textfile list i have on my desktop :]]

MolbOrg

git-scm.com/book/en/v2/Git-Tools-Submodules

kim holder

@MolbOrg yeah, that is probably at least part of the solution, although there are other platforms adapted specifically to 3d modelling, so i should check out those.

at the very least, those resources still probably need to be available through github

huh, rsync is cool

i have a feeling --dry-run is going to be important for me

MolbOrg

if you wish to have revisions of a model, you can tag important states and clean the history in between.
If the model were built of small pieces revisioning of them would make more sense.
you can have release versions in git, but yeah interesting problem

Hohmannfan

@kimholder Also, if you want to do stuff on the server, you can if you want run:
ssh [email protected]
That drops you into a bash shell at the server. Good to know.

kim holder

redoing the colony as a set of assets is something i've actually been working on for a while, whenever i have a chance

@Hohmannfan it is. i will have to learn some bash, it seems to me that if i'm going to try to manage the project and it actually gets much bigger, i am going to need to know this stuff

blender does have a system for splitting things into libraries, and large projects always do that

but if you haven't done something that way from the outset, it is time consuming to set it up, and there are a number of wrinkles you need to bear in mind

kim holder

19:56

oh, ubuntu budge already has a bunch of stuff in the .bashrc file

kim holder

21:06

@Hohmannfan have you checked flags today? i'd just like to confirm my comment flag was turned down.

i don't care by who or whatever...

Hohmannfan

@kimholder I can confirm your comment flag was turned down.

kim holder

21:23

ok. i gotta say that bothers me, but i'm trying to suck it up.

kim holder

21:43

come on, really?

now there is only my comment immediately before, and his comment, to attract maximum attention?

MolbOrg

22:51

ok, you continue to get publicity, in circles I'm in, this guy sometimes I agree with him some times not, pretty complex guy. So do you remember that my commenting on draft for the conference?
https://www.facebook.com/michael.turner.9231/posts/1928545633829215

>I watched the moon landings. The TV news reporters interviewed exultant Americans. What were they saying? Were people "snapping out of petty differences, self-fulfilling fears? No. It was, "We beat the Russians!"

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