Moonwards

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MolbOrg

01:39

@kimholder what exactly you refer to, the cat is horible at showing that to me

*chat

kim holder

02:09

@MolbOrg oh, it's that we never really finished the discussion of the practical benefits of settling the Moon

but i'm trying to pull it together and finish that, so i'd sort of like to leave it for now. there have been so many emails and discussion for me in the last 3 days.

MolbOrg

it rather practical benefits of space, trough moon, than the moon itself.
ok. When you choose it.

MolbOrg

03:10

good plan, a wrong way, however, if it works it the right way
http://www.space.com/37101-self-replicating-3d-printer-moon-bases.html

however right pattern of thinking

1 hour later…

MolbOrg

04:28

one of our problem with space - we think too small
16 minutes in the https://youtu.be/qLZ2bdoz3Io he talks possible variant of travel inside of galactic
but the same comment can be made about most of the things we how we talk about space

18 hours later…

MolbOrg

22:48

small talk about usfeulness of space? half hour break?

kim holder

@MolbOrg :P sure, i suppose i could use a break

MolbOrg

should I refresh things I wrote or you have read them?

kim holder

after all, i've spent most of the day correcting mistakes i made on models i made a long time ago, and thinking through relatively simple mechanical questions.

nah, refresh please, so it can be more focused.

i did read them though.

and i watched part of the video

MolbOrg

to spike massive investments in space, we really need massive practical individual interests in space.
As long as the general public do not see the carrot it will ask the question why I should invest in the space, why my tax money is spent in the space.
at the current state of things, the usefulness of investments is hard to track, and NASA has problems to appeal to it, however, we (as public) actually have significant trust in science, because any know that it was the thing which gave us everything we use today.

kim holder

23:07

NASA has not succeeded in making it common knowledge that research that came directly out of the space program led to many advanced common in many modern products. I'd just add that.

MolbOrg

yes, mostly NASA failed at marketing. but it has old steam from apolo era and space is cool in general

ok them moving on

However, we might offer some space solutions which would make live on earth better and noticeably for everyone, besides satellites which we use today.
there a lot of projects of that sort from old times(previous century) - regulating climate, datacentres, metals, energy.
Some are more fantasy some are less fantasy, some seem to be not so much profitable, some are ok.

But before all those projects - there is huge price tag of current rocket launches
and there is the magic of self-replicating thing, which no one has mastered yet but which could help to overcome the price tag, and after we do…

@kimholder So this is the premise of the problem and I think there should not be some significant disagreements of the description - correct?

or should we talk first about those space solution which could help the humanity eat better?

kim holder

the reason i mentioned the part about food and other immediately practical things is that i get the feeling that people who ask about this are thinking about those things.

also i think it helps get across a matter of perspective

the majority of human behaviour isn't done for any practical reason at all

if our main concern was really our safety and health we would do a lot of things differently, put our resources into very different things

MolbOrg

23:24

I agree they kinda do think about those things, and I willing to talk in those terms too because I do believe there is an answer in those terms. And definitely is easier to understand the incentive of doing things that way.

@kimholder I think we do not need to dive too deep in those matters, as almost everyone who can (physically or by law) work for food or money.

kim holder

but they don't work doing things that provide food and health and safety for others, just for themselves and their families. and when they have extra, they don't spend it on helping others, for the most part.

at any rate. it is sort of a side point. i just wish that when people challenge us on practicality, we got to discuss what practicality even means.

MolbOrg

exactly those people we need to invest in space. charity is not my style. they should give the money freely because it will make their personal live better - I'm talking about those solutions, not about fighting poverty in the world or something of that sort.

kim holder

alright

MolbOrg

I feel needs some example of practical thing - city level over 9000F heat in summer - will a city make some heat tax and pay those money to make the city less hot - will people agree to pay if it will be cheap enough?

kim holder

probably, if you can make it cheap enough. the difficult thing is that for the future we can clearly see, it is hard to make a convincing case that there isn't a better solution right here on Earth. To the degree that i disagree with you, it is really about that.

For every single thing you mention, though in the long future i think wonderful things will come from space, i can't explain how because nobody knows. All kinds of infrastructure needs to be created before that future happens.

MolbOrg

23:35

yes, there can be better solutions here on earth but they aren't implemented, so if one can offer a solution just of affordable price, why not to pay if it does not require to do those solutions themselves.

kim holder

sad, but possibly true. Still, really so sad. We can't organize enough to build solar thermal plants in the deserts? That's pretty bad.

MolbOrg

Yes, the problem is that we do not see the connection between the current state of things and those possible space solution or we say it will be astronomically expensive.

kim holder

it will be astronomically expensive.

then there is a huge payoff, some time after that.

MolbOrg

@kimholder it's not sad, it's how humans work, and they survived that way - it works and it is great.

kim holder

it's hard being human. still, we are capable of doing so much better.

MolbOrg

23:39

so it is correct if I say that the main problem for you is the bridging the gap between earth-space, current state of deals-possible space solution, cheap-expensive, but not the possibility of the solutions and their usefulness?

@kimholder we are doing great sofar - we still alive

kim holder

@MolbOrg i agree. on the other hand, to get much further, we have to make a bunch of basic changes. we have become too powerful to do things the way we used to. but that is probably another conversation.

@MolbOrg yes. but that is a big thing to bridge. i have a hard time not feeling that what i'm saying is pretty lame when i say that energy or metals or climate control or data services from space can compete with what we can do here in the near future.

MolbOrg

about the bridging - I'm correct or not? and half hour is out, we continue 18 minutes or next time?

kim holder

hm? how long has it been?

MolbOrg

idk, a bit less than 1 hour according to chat logs

kim holder

well, let's try to get so some point where we can pause easily and continue later

MolbOrg

23:46

actually, it is the point, next we should talk about bridge and all that. I guess it is another part

kim holder

ok - then let's pause. my husband came home sore and tired, and we want to have a nice soak in our tub for two so his aching legs feel better.

MolbOrg

kim holder

by the way, we have a new person on the website's forum, and he just posted a link to a really cool game he made that shows what a 2.6 second delay is really like

jcatkeson.wixsite.com/moongame

moonwards.com/forum/index.php?mode=thread&id=143

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