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03:31
if the fayalite reaction works, the quantity of glass that can be made can be stretched by adding that silica to anorthite that has been purified, which seems doable by boiling off the sodium oxide.
03:47
if this glass can tolerate the kind of iron contamination that silica glass can, the extra silica from the fayalite reaction could be up to 4% iron oxide and it would still be okay.
i wonder at what temperature fayalite degrades into iron oxide and silica...
 
5 hours later…
08:26
Sodium oxide can simply be boiled off? That sounds incredibly useful.
 
4 hours later…
12:04
@kimholder Hop has a very nice vector and matrix overview: hopsblog-hop.blogspot.no/2017/02/matrices.html
 
1 hour later…
13:08
@kimholder Turns out time calculations are difficult and I needed a dependency.
"sudo gem install jekyll-timeago" to get stuff to build correctly,
13:54
All the functionality of github can totally work as a social media platform :)
14:22
@Hohmannfan sodium oxide boils at 1950 C, which is high but if the pressure is kept low its vapor point drops a lot
what are the time calculations for?
As for now just a time diff for the Cernan citation, but I have some other things I want to implement in the future.
ah, finally found it. you added lots of planet data.
(i went and looked through your last commit, for some reason, instead of doing a git pull)
i think i'll format the time-ago a little. it is indeed interesting to have it there.
You know what else is interesting? that is the first time that i've reflected that means i was 4 years old, but i don't remember it
14:41
My idea was to later add a numbers for the NASA, SpaceX, Roscosmos and China roadmaps, to show when we possibly return :)
those numbers tend to change...
it would be also thought provoking to have that there. i worry a bit about it seeming like a race...
(in which one participant is a private company. that is so weird.)
Perhaps having a seconds counter constantly ticking would be something more effectfull instead.
heehee
14:46
44Y 4m 12h 5m 5s ago
44Y 4m 12h 5m 6s ago
44Y 4m 12h 5m 7s ago
@kimholder you was born in 68?
yes. i'm 49
but it does feel rather different to say it the other way...
and now i look back in an accusatory way thinking my parents did not sit us down in front of the tv and emphasize the importance of the event.
people on the moon, that is...
and it's 'you were born in 68'. that is a mistake you wouldn't ordinarily make. are you tired?
No, English is hard.
it's also 'effective', not 'effectfull'
but honestly, your English is normally pretty smooth. that is a simple little mistake, but it made me wonder if you are pushing yourself.
You remember most of the shuttle program then. I do not know when you became interested in space, but it must have been frustrating to see how things slowed down towards the sluggish speed we have today.
oh, it was tremendously frustrating.
14:58
@kimholder The amount of grammatical mistakes is not a very good indicator to use for a non-native speaker to see if they are tired.
How was Voyager?
we were moving to a different province, my family drove across half of Canada with our most essential belongings in a van, and the morning the space shuttle flew for the first time, we were in a cramped motel room outside of our new home.
my parents turned on the launch only because i had piped up repeatedly that i really didn't want to miss it.
You remember the exact moment. You must have been quite interested already :)
my parents didn't give a fig about space. they were not supportive at all of my interest in space or in science.
but i watched what i could. and i got science magazines, and read science fiction.
@kimholder But even if it is not a good indicator, I recently switched to decaf...
@Hohmannfan that is wise. a little stimulant can be helpful, a lot will drain you and you don't really notice until it has gone pretty far.
15:03
I just noticed my consumption had increased to a cup almost every day. "meh, not healthy".
i have a cup 2 or 3 times a week right now. that is a bit much for me because i tire easily, but with other changes i think i can sustain it.
these are pretty minor amounts though. at your age, i wouldn't really think about it unless you are having 3 or 4 cups a day.
I am extremely prone to getting addicted to stuff. Better not.
2 cups a day is sustainable for quite a while for a young healthy person
hi uhoh
Hello, @uhoh
@Hohmannfan addiction to behaviours and addiction to substances are rather different. i find it awfully unlikely that you have previous experience that shows you are vulnerable to substance addiction.
15:08
My parents have always been supportive regarding science (though they do not care about computers). I essentially grew up mostly before internet. Not internet in general of course, but before it was available where I live. The bookshelves always had plenty of books, and they could always answer questions.
@kimholder Not interested in finding out though.
ah, a library at home... yeah, we didn't have that
A small house, the walls, ceiling and floor covered in books.
My grandfather also has lots of books, but here it is less religion and more mycology.
@Hohmannfan oh my goodness so many topics!
Completely unrelated: My brother called me to ask about some html tags today. So cute :)
I'm trying to read about the glass now
15:14
@Hohmannfan that's great :D
@uhoh Personal stories, geology, math, programming, physics, webdesign, history, politics, ...yeah.
@uhoh the glass has become a real thorn in my side. i know very little chemistry, but i don't feel right about talking about architecture full of glass when i have no idea how it could be made.
@uhoh The relevant book: gutenberg.org/ebooks/52724
@kimholder There are plenty of people who could answer everything quickly, but finding them is the hard part.
yeah, exactly. i wondered last night about phoning somewhere.
15:19
Is there any chance you can look around for a glass studio for artists locally, or just talk by internet?
They may not have the knowledge you need at first, but may know how to put you in touch with someone that does.
there are local glass studios, but art glass is soda lime glass, which won't work
and it would be very odd if they were familiar with the very odd reactions that would need to be used to produce glass on the moon
It's an "in" - a way to start a conversation.
It may take a few introductions to reach a person who has more knowledge. Think of it as a community without a stackexchange. Someone who knows someone who had a teacher who knows an industrial chemist once....
ah, yes, now i see where you made that point
Whoa whoa, "community without a stackexchange" slow down there!
Ha - it's the real world!
Before the internet
15:23
but only a manufacturer of specialty glass might have the right knowledge.
i found a book last night - it might have what i need
the book Hoh linked above was a good read, but didn't get into the specialty glass, this other one is more thorough, it looks like
we now have both hoh and uhoh in the room. The nicknames are getting confusing.
A person with some experience may know how to approach the question better - how to work the problem better, even if they don't know the answer.
@kimholder Do you still use your solar rock melting equipment?
They may know of, or have a cache of out-of-print books
People know stuff.
The problem, essentially: "You have selected 1 world(s) 'The Moon' with 1 resource(s): Regolith - the most useless material ever"
15:28
It's unpredictable, and takes time, but sometimes asking around can be really rewarding. The idea is to put in the effort with no expectation of results.
it would be good to get to someone who knows how to do the calculations for glass formulas, and see what they say when i show them the list of available ingredients
Ya, is it energetically favorable? (High School Chemistry - how to use a table of half-reactions)
Reminds me of the sodium oxide, is it the first material that boils off? If so, that is quite important for some metallurgical processes.
Then what are all of the competing reactions, alternate paths that lead to the wrong products.
Any inorganic chemist may love to work a problem like that.
The moment in high school you realize the arrow always goes both ways and all the possible reactions are happening simultaneously.
15:31
hang on, i'm looking for the link to that useful book, and posting the chart i made
@Hohmannfan fortunately, the key reaction produced steam, which you can pump off immediately. no going back.
you know, my chrome search history often seems to have gaps
Wikipedia: "Fayalite can also react with oxygen to produce magnetite + quartz:"
Fayalite (Fe2SiO4; commonly abbreviated to Fa), also called iron chrysolite, is the iron-rich end-member of the olivine solid-solution series. In common with all minerals in the olivine group, fayalite crystallizes in the orthorhombic system (space group Pbnm) with cell parameters a 4.82 Å, b 10.48 Å and c Å 6.09. Fayalite forms solid solution series with the magnesium olivine endmember forsterite (Mg2SiO4) and also with the manganese rich olivine endmember tephroite (Mn2SiO4). Iron rich olivine is a relatively common constituent of acidic and alkaline igneous rocks such as volcanic obsidians...
Wikipedia: "Fayalite can also react with oxygen to produce magnetite + quartz:"
@kimholder I got a free copy of this book at the physics event. It is nice for filling in a few gaps: (cover image)
@uhoh you know, i looked at that, but wasn't sure it could be separated.
and as with the hydrogen reaction, the next question is if it can be made to react completely in a reasonable amount of time, and with a reasonable amount of energy
I am pretty sure that quartz is the last part of the mineral that remains. Those silicon tetrahedra are not going to give up no matter what.
15:38
I don't know, but whomever wrote that sentence felt it was significant.
@Hohmannfan that does look good. i have a few textbooks, but not one on chemistry. there are of course many free ones on line now. i just don't know how to look into the parts i need to know.
The German version of the article is much more detailed: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fayalit
That book looks fascinating! I really like books - it's hard to sit down and read a book in google cover-to-cover though :(
Fayalite has the property of reversibly reacting with oxygen at high temperatures: [10]
This reaction can be exploited to establish a defined partial pressure or a defined fugacity of oxygen in the case of high temperature experiments. The system is also referred to as FMQ buffer ( Fayalite magnetite / quartz buffer).
it is another pathway to look into alright. If the molten mixture can be separated according to density, that is pretty manageable
especially if any unreacted material could thus be separated from the quartz, too
In cases like that, the behaviour close the the phase boundary is extremely important for separation. But then, where is the data...
15:43
i wonder if anything useful can be done with bulk magnetite...
yes, i need to understand how to track down the details. which brings us back to the matter of who i should approach, and how.
In geology, a redox buffer is an assemblage of minerals or compounds that constrains oxygen fugacity as a function of temperature. Knowledge of the redox conditions (or equivalently, oxygen fugacities) at which a rock forms and evolves can be important for interpreting the rock history. Iron, sulfur, and manganese are three of the relatively abundant elements in the Earth's crust that occur in more than one oxidation state. For instance, iron, the fourth most abundant element in the crust, exists as native iron, ferrous iron (Fe2+), and ferric iron (Fe3+). The redox state of a rock affects the...
@kimholder I know several people with very detailed knowledge of magnetite. I can try to contact them about about some of the separation processes.
The FMQ Redox Buffer is "a thing" that people write about.
i'll read about both those things. this is very helpful, uhoh.
That abstract is worth reading. Someone has done the experiment and demonstrated separated phases of magnetite and silica!
ISingle crystals of fayalite (Fe2SiO4) have been oxidized either in the hematite or the magnetite stability field to investigate the kinetics and mechanisms of oxidation. For samples heated in air at 770° C, a two-phase region composed of fine-grained iron oxide and silica phases formed as the reaction front moved into the sample, and an iron oxide layer formed external to this two-phase region.
The presence of the single-phase oxide layer coating the specimens indicates that oxidation occurs by the migration of iron from the fayalite to the gas-solid interface rather than by the movement of oxygen in the opposite direction.
So, it starts a reduction process close to the boundary entirely by itself in that configuration?
Everything likes to oxidize!
Keep adding oxygen, and the silicons and irons can each have all they can eat.
...essentially separating the mineral.
15:49
So this is just one paper that came up as a random google search. It tells two things...
1) this seems very promising
2) if there is one paper, there's probably a lot more.
Ok three things:
3) Earth Science Stackexchange might be a better place to ask, but the question would have to draw in people with minerology backgrounds
Start with a question about some of these mineralogically important Redox reactions, such as the FMQ.
Then ease into the subject of glass in the second or third question in the series :)
right. i'll just read the introductory material you've pointed out first
How does the FMQ act as an "Oxygen Barometer"? for example
@Hohmannfan that sound very useful too
The problem is that many of the relevant and interesting phase boundary reactions have no use in industry specifically, so few people have experience with them. The approach then is to get a more complete understanding of the FMQ.
15:53
@Hohmannfan this is the issue that comes up all the time, the conditions being so different that a rethinking is required that really gets in the way
'free pdf', those are the words i like to see :D
@Hohmannfan I'm clueless about mineralogy, but it does seem that mineralogists study all kinds of crazy chemical reactions with no focus on use. "stuff happens"
@kimholder If there is some book in particular you would like to get some information from, I can get almost any book ever printed sent to me for free.
@Hohmannfan that's a pretty profound statement! Can you just ask for all of them :)
Glass batch calculation or glass batching is used to determine the correct mix of raw materials (batch) for a glass melt. == Principle == The raw materials mixture for glass melting is termed "batch". The batch must be measured properly to achieve a given, desired glass formulation. This batch calculation is based on the common linear regression equation: N B = ( B T ⋅ B ) − ...
"Send me all of the books!"
15:58
The calculation of glass properties (glass modeling) is used to predict glass properties of interest or glass behavior under certain conditions (e.g., during production) without experimental investigation, based on past data and experience, with the intention to save time, material, financial, and environmental resources, or to gain scientific insight. It was first practised at the end of the 19th century by A. Winkelmann and O. Schott. The combination of several glass models together with other relevant functions can be used for optimization and six sigma procedures. In the form of statistical...
Glass databases are a collection of glass compositions, glass properties, glass models, associated trademark names, patents etc. These data were collected from publications in scientific papers and patents, from personal communication with scientists and engineers, and other relevant sources. == History == Since the beginning of scientific glass research in the 19th century thousands of glass property-composition datasets were published. The first attempt to summarize all those data systematically was the monograph "Glastechnische Tabellen". World War II and the Cold War prevented similar efforts...
@Hohmannfan i will have to think about that carefully :]
@uhoh No, sadly. The required procedure for obtaining them requires some work, and I have to send them back eventually.
Ya, I had a feeling reality was in there somewhere
it is at moments like this that i reflect that google paid people to OCR pretty much every book in the world and put them all into a database, that they are legally bound not to publish...
OK gotta go. This was fun, will stop by again. Thanks!
@uhoh Happy to have you here.
16:02
thank you uhoh. i'll report back when i've gone through this :)
can u give examples of matter which is not a substance
@user113223 Neutron stars have tightly packed neutrons. Not sure if that counts.
i think this depends on the definition of substance
@kimholder If you have some knowledge of the database system used by the Norwegian library system (bless the person learning me that), you can get them to specifically order books sent from a very long list of countries. In the case of rare books, they scan them and print a copy for you instead. It may take some weeks for the libraries abroad to find and mail the book, but it works.
that is very cool
i have to admit, i have paid a lot of money for textbooks twice now that in the end did not contain nearly as much useful information as i hoped, so caution is warranted.
it is important to mine google books for as much information as you can on a given book first, to make sure it is really the one you want.
16:19
to go over even how to ask about this, i am going to need to study some chemistry
This room is a lot more active than The Pod Bay recently.
:] yes, i've noticed that
i think the thing is it's about a project that is actively being worked on, so that leads to long conversations
> I consider fugacity to be the same as an activity coefficient, observed deviation of expected internal chemical potential from an ideal solution or gas.
If I am remembering correctly, the assumption that fugacity is equal in the three phases allows you to assume that the phase changes are solely due to increased internal kinetic energy, rather than vibratory, rotational, or electronic excitation. This lets you solve for the work of the system let's you assume equilibrium and makes the math easier to avoid accounting for disproportionation of the phase states, I believe
sometimes people on reddit really nail it
The good parts of reddit is good, the bad parts are cancer.
If a subreddit becomes a default, it is doomed.
wow, that bc open textbooks resource is awesome
now that's how you offer an open-source book!
16:44
It does not even offer an audio file to listen to. Literally unreadable /s
This is the kind of approach which makes resources available and useful. That is essentially the reason I pay for my GNU utilities. (I am allowed to brag about that, right?)
17:16
yes. i paid for ubuntu, and for blender. and i might pay again, just because.
18:39
my tablet can't handle my brand new chemistry textbook :[
Also, this very sad one for opencart, but it looks like the main dev nuked the thread as it was way too embarrassing for him.
18:54
ok, since my tablet for some reason can't open the textbook, and i'd like to be able to take notes, i seem to be in an awkward position
Archive org copy of a gist of the issue: web.archive.org/web/20161125225412/https://gist.github.com/…
@kimholder What formats did you try to open it in?
@Hohmannfan dear me, where do you find these things?
@Hohmannfan epub, because that i can transfer back and forth between my desktop and my tablet
i have a ton of pdf files, of course, but i don't know if i can transfer notes with those files. in fact, i should test that
and actually, i'm not sure it is true that i can transfer highlighting and notes on epub. i should see.
@kimholder I found it when somebody linked to the Closedcart superclosed licence
you are distracting me. i must resist.
okay, here's the thing: the textbook .epub is 284 MB. i assume because it is loaded with images.
the complete works of shakespeare 2.4 MB
Text and pictures of text(maybe) is two different things completely.
I experimented with compression and the Bible and managed to fit it inside a MB in the end.
19:08
something about that is particularly ironic
If you want to split the pdf into multiple files if it has multiple files, you can use pdftk.
pdftk largepdfile.pdf burst
That works, but you all the pages independently.
Group them into several folders, and merge them inside there with
pdftk *.pdf cat output onelargepdfile.pdf
my big thing is i want to be able to transfer my highlighting and bookmarks between devices
Oh, then that is not the problem at all.
i mean, also it is a problem that the tablet won't even open the epub...
For notes on a document, I prefer paper.
19:12
] : - no, i can't go back...
actually i haven't made many written notes, but now that i have, it sure is nice.
i can carry them with me everywhere, they can be in the cloud.
] : ->
^this looks like the GNU logo
ok, the epub highlights weren't transferred anyhow. now to check with a pdf.
🐃/🐧
(technically a water buffalo, but it looks like gnu in many fonts)
i zoomed the window to 250% just to see what that was
no, the pdf highlights arent' preserved either. dang that's annoying.
Remember to zoom back
Oh, SE is scaling big characters down :(
19:26
no shouting allowed :}
I hope that someday learning all kinds of unicode hacks turns out to be useful.
i fear the set of people who often use unicode hacks are not people i'd like to know
aren't they the people who pepper emoticons all over everything and try to make their posts stand out in chat threads?
especially spammers?
I was more thinking about using unicode in interfaces for scalable icons, but perhaps I can become a spammer instead?
ah, scalable icons. yes, that makes me feel better.
my appreciation for evernote has just gone up gigantically
I would like the unicode flag standard to get more support.
🇲🇽
Is this a flag for you or "MX"?
19:38
it's MX, each letter with a dotted border around it
See? The icon standards are slow.
Evernote? The only things I have heard about it was all the data harvesting drama.
i am just stuck trying to figure out now how i am going to organize my research, now that i realize i am probably going to lose all my highlighting and bookmarks unless i stick to one provider forever
i already have only very sloppy organization of all the things i've collected, so if i have any hope of finding things easily, i need a method that isn't going to break at the slightest excuse
and that i can actually carry with me
maybe i'm going to have to start copying and pasting things into individual files associated with each book
19:56
Green: Signed and ratified the Moon treaty
Yellow: Signed
Compare that with the Outer Space treaty:
the moon treaty is a mess
i don't suppose you have an opinion on cross-platform text editors, especially between ubuntu and android?
Not writing text on a phone, so no.
it's to copy passages. apparently lithium will copy things, so i need a place to stick them, and then i need to be able to move those files around.
A stack based clipboard handler, perhaps?
a what?
20:04
Things you copy are stored in a clipboard stack so you can push and pop elements to store multiple things in your clipboard. I used one for a while, but I have forgot the name of it.
actually i suspect a text editor would be more appropriate. that way i can group things and name the file in a way that helps me find it.
Ah, I was thinking more like selecting multiple things and use the stack as a buffer and then empty it into a text editor.
oh. yes, that would help the flow of things, but i really doubt i would get anywhere with that if i was copying highlights on my tablet.
Editing text in any way on a touch device sounds cumbersome.
yes. we had that conversation yesterday, i believe "}
;}
um, :}
but now i have them, i went to all that effort and i don't want to lose them.
i'm going to try a couple of android text editors and see how exporting their files goes.
20:10
Actually, I miss a clipboard manager. BRB
Glipper is for the GNOME environment, so I am going to try it.
i should probably switch to gnome, now that it is inevitable anyhow
that uhoh sure stays busy
Gnome on a phone could perhaps be nice. I heard some guys managed to port Arch linux to a google pixle phone. To bad all phone hardware is mostly locked down.
oh look, apparently i bought a pretty good text editor a few years ago and never installed it on my new tablet...
and also there are a ton of games i must not reload or i will lose several weeks of time
I have found incremental games to be the best solution for me. They are slow enough to not require attention, I just see how they are doing once in a while
'allow OfficeSuite to access your contacts'.... no, no way
i still remember that awful paper clip
21:00
okay, i may regret it, but i'm going to install google docs on the tablet, and use google drive to keep this organized
because now that i tried to use them, i remember why i didn't install the 'office suites' i used to have on my tablet
21:27
i saw something about pyramids but i missed the rest
Removed feature, does no longer work in chat it seems. Still fun in posts though.
The keyboard formatting can be nested.
22:01
you know, i think i'm going to start creating a set of reference notes for everyone who participates by using GitHub's Wiki section to organize everything
that way i can create research pages with loose notes, including links and images, and not have that seem unprofessional, because it is clearly marked 'research notes'
22:20
@Hohmannfan oh - never answered that. it is shelved at the moment because i need it to track the sun in order to do anything interesting, and that is a fairly large project that is not immediately relevant
this is motivation for me, and generally helpful to the project
That sure needs editing, i'll maybe do that monday
And i'll put some of the models on the Project page...

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