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00:36
@Rietty glad to be able to help.
 
4 hours later…
04:31
@BenSteffan ooof, what were you thinking lol. but something similar happened to me. The night before my numerical analysis exam, I tried to climb a 9 foot wall, just for fun. Its been a week and my whole body still feels sore.
I suppose I did that because I lost it after reading my professors "proof" for convergence/ order of convergence of Newton-Rhapson method for root finding.
05:11
Glad that your professor motivates you
05:42
lol, very much so
exercise was/is my source of sanity
@LuckyChouhan doing easy math isn't a waste of time, first make your basics strong and only then go for more advanced stuffs.
@nickbros123 Skull emoji
while this method is perfectly valid way to show the lower bound, I would like some help in filling out the following, different argument: Suppose I am given a subset of N, or an element in P(N). My map is as follows: I order this set, and make, something akin to a cycle (if the set I pick happens to be finite, this is pretty well defined i guess, I just put 2 brackets at the start and the end of the finite set and call it a cycle). If the set is infinite, I follow the order, as in, if the set is (1,3,5,7, ...),
if, say, I am given a finite set in $N$. Something like (3,5,6). Then I can order it and make it the only cycle in my function. Say this is $f_1$. If I am given a different finite set, like (5,7,8), then by virtue of the definition of my cycle (5,7,8), this will necessarily be different from $f_1$. I want to do something like this for infinite subsets of $N$ too
06:09
You want to make a correspondence between subsets of $\Bbb{N}$ and symm($\Bbb{N}$)?
Are you trying to construct injections from one to other or explicit bijection?
not a one-one correspondence per se, an injection is enogh
just injection
okay then you can take pairwise transposition for infinite subsets
{1,3,5,7,...} would correspond to (1,3)(5,7)...
 
2 hours later…
08:35
@SoumikMukherjee right. thanks!!
09:24
I have this theorem: "If a sequence is unbounded above, then there exists a monotonic subsequence that tends to $+\infty$". In the proof, the author use the unboundedness to say that there exists $n_1, n_2 \in \mathbb{N}$ such that $a_{n_1}>0$ and $a_{n_2}>\text{max}(a_1,\dots,a_{n_1},1\}$. Then, the author says that it must be $n_2>n_1$. Finally, we can iterate the construction and obtain $a_{n_{k+1}} > \text{max}(a_1,\dots,a_{n_k},k\}$.

I have two questions, first one: is the $a_{n_1}>0$ condition just because it is how the author wants to construct the subsequence with the $k-1$ as last
Yes, $a_{n_1} > 0$ is not really needed, but maybe makes some expressions in the end nicer. And your reasoning for $n_2 > n_1$ is correct.
09:49
@SoumikMukherjee sure, would you suggest any source?
@VladimirLysikov Thank you!
10:02
@LuckyChouhan Source of what?
@SoumikMukherjee for proof practice :')
40
A: how to be good at proving?

AmzotiPractice, Practice, Practice! Get books in the class you are doing, review the proofs. Learn to look at a theorem and see if you can figure out a proof approach. There are also books that may help along these lines with general proof approaches. General Proof Strategies How to Solve It: A New...

@LuckyChouhan what courses are you taking rn?
@SoumikMukherjee real analysis and group theory.
@SoumikMukherjee thanks you for this! btw what are you doing these days?
@LuckyChouhan What books are you following?
@LuckyChouhan got into a PhD, wondering and scratching my head mostly
10:10
@SoumikMukherjee I studied Bartle's Introduction to real analysis. And these days I'm seeing Folland's real analysis. Because I find Rudin so vauge.
And for group theory?
@LuckyChouhan vague in the explanation or do you struggle to solve the exercises?
Once you read a chapter, try to solve the exercises.
I've printed Rudin PMA a couple of days ago
It's a shame that you don't have enough time to study from books when you're preparing an exam
@SineoftheTime yeah in explanation. I also struggle with exercises because I really found most of the problems' statements obvious but really can't assemble ideas to prove them. Advice and help on which I'm looking for.
10:13
if you think they're obvious but can't prove them there's something wrong
@SoumikMukherjee I have IN Herstein which I really find hard and I'm studying Gallian.
Gallian is fine, try Artin as well
@SoumikMukherjee in what area of math, you're doing your PhD research?
Currently studying algebraic geometry.
@SineoftheTime wait. As of now, I don't have any good example but I'm gonna tag you as soon as I find.
10:16
I don't know if I'm able to help you since I suck at real analysis
@SoumikMukherjee Yeah, actually what I think, this is era of algebraic geometry. MO is also densely populated with algebraists.
@SineoftheTime Then in which are you're good at. (PS I know you're good at integrals and series. I have seen several of your answers :'))
well, I like real analysis but I don't consider myself good at it
Start collecting ideas, if you can't prove something by yourself then check the answer, understand every line of the answer, why this part is necessary, why that part is sufficient etc. Next time try to do the proof yourself, in your own style.
@SineoftheTime Let's consider a problem: Polynomial p(x) \in Z[x] takes values $\pm 1$ at three different integer point. Prove that it has no integer roots.. How can we go about proving it. Or how to approach a problem like this?
@SoumikMukherjee yeah, I'm gonna do this from now.
it depends on the background and on which tools you can use. I usually start writing clearly the hp and the thesis and then try a couple of examples
10:23
@SineoftheTime Don't care about background. Please tell me if you get any idea(s).
you probably have to use some result related to the polynomials in $\Bbb Z[X]$
@LuckyChouhan hint: a-b divides p(a)-p(b)
Maybe theyre not obvious? have u considered that? For example, things like $x^y$ where x and y are real numbers are not really natural objects like we used to think of them in school etc. in high school we just without thought used things like $e^x$. after my 1st analysis course I understood its not a "natural" thing (being intentionally vague). its the supremum of the set of all x^t where t runs over $\mathbb{Q}$ such that t <= y. later on itl be a taylor expansion, and so on.

Also, "obvious" statements like, say, given $y>0$ and $n \in \mathbb{N}$, there exists $x \in \mathbb{R}^+$ such
id also call, a statement like: if theres an injection from A to B, and an injection from B to A, theres a bijection from A to B "obvious". maybe obvious when i was 1st year. then definitely not obvious. once u prove it or see the proof, then its again obvious xD
right now my definition of obvious is any statement that I can sketch the proof of without pen n paper
10:43
Your definition of obvious is obvious
Or is it?
~_~
Definitions are, by definition, not obvious
11:16
Hi👋
@SineoftheTime I tried to do this exercise again: Determine the flux of the vector field $F=(0,xy,e^z)$ coming out of the surface $S$ of Cartesian equations $$z=x^2+y^2, \frac{1}{4} \leq x^2+y^2 \leq 1$$
I sent it a few months ago and you told me how to do it, now I tried to do it again
Since the surface was not closed I could not use the divergence theorem so I calculated the flux using the formula that for $z = g(x,y)$
So I used the polar coordinates $x = r \cos(\theta), y = r \sin(\theta), z = r^2, \theta \in [0,2\pi], 1/2 \leq r \leq 1$
first you parametrize and then you use polar coordinates
So I got the scalar product $(0, r^2 \cos(\theta) \sin(\theta), e^{r^2}) \cdot (-r^2, 0,1) = e^{r^2}$
@SineoftheTime ? , In what sense
how did you parametrize the surface?
11:27
It wouldn't be like writing $r(u,v) = (u \cos(v), u \sin(v), u^2)$
$u \in \left[\frac{1}{2}, 1\right] , v \in [0,2\pi]$
so $D=[1/2,1]\times [0,2\pi]$
Yes
$(-r^2,0,1)$ is the normal vector?
why not using $r(u,v)=(u,v,u^2+v^2)$ with $D=\{\frac14\le u^2+v^2\le 1\}$ ?
Yes
using $r$ for the parametrization is not a good idea, I'd use another letter
11:36
Oh, yes right
@Pizza this is a mess and I'm not understanding what you did
@SineoftheTime What is not clear?
I should have done well
Wait
@Pizza everything
you're mixing the parametrization with polar coordinates
but shouldn't the normal vector be $(-2u^2\cos(v),-2u^2\sin(v),u)$?
yes
@Pizza throw away what you did and begin the exercise using the parametrization I told you to use
11:45
I get as a result $e\pi - e^{\frac{1}{4}} \pi$
@Gian'sPizzeria Did you happen to finish the exercise?
Wait
@Pizza same
But I used $\left(-\frac{\partial{f}}{\partial{x}}, -\frac{\partial{f}}{\partial{y}},1\right)$
Only instead of x and y I used r and $\theta$
So as a function I had $z = r^2$
So I get $(-2r, 0, 1)$, I wrote it wrong before but it shouldn't affect the result
this is highly confusing
even if the result is correct
I would have solve it this way:
I tried to use this formula
that's what I did
$f(u,v)=u^2+v^2$, so you're left with $\iint_D(-2uv^2+e^{u^2+v^2})dudv$ and now you use polar coordinates
11:57
Alternatively you can make the surface closed by adding the circular caps on the top and on the bottom
flux through S = integral of divergence - flux through the top - flux through the bottom
The answer is correct, I got a different sign (the problem seems to not specify the orientation well)
$-2uv^2$ is odd so the integral is $0$
and you have to compute $\int_0^{2\pi}d\theta\int_{1/2}^1 e^{r^2} r dr $
which yields $\pi e - \sqrt[4] e \pi$
I don't understand how I can find the same...
I don't get -2uv²
$F=(0,uv,e^{u^2+v^2})$ and $N=(-2u,-2v,1)$
But because I didn't do the parameterization I went straight with the polar coordinates
I thought it could be done
@Pizza what did you get as $F\cdot N$ here?
12:05
$(0, r\cos(\theta) r\sin(\theta), e^{r^2}) \cdot (-2r, 0, 1)$
Did you find $N$ using the formula you sent above?
if so, what did you use as $f$?
Yes
$z = r^2$
Since the function was $z = x^2 + y^2$
You cannot do that
This will not give you the normal vector in xyz coordinates
I don't suggest skipping all these steps, I'd write first the double integral and then choose what approach use to solve it
plus, the formula you sent only works for surfaces of the form $z=f(x,y)$
So I get the result at random?
12:10
yes
I suggest redoing the exercise you sent using that formula
but first write the double integral
@SineoftheTime Oh...
@SineoftheTime ok
I try
what did you find as $F(x,y,f(x,y))\cdot(-f_x,-f_y,1)$ now?
12:27
@SineoftheTime Like you
$\iint_D -2uv^2 + e^{u^2+v^2} dudv$
and you're able to solve this
But then the formula becomes $\phi = \iint_D F(u,v,f(u,v)) \cdot \left(-\frac{\partial{f}}{\partial{u}}, -\frac{\partial{f}}{\partial{v}}, 1\right) du dv$
Yes ?
@SineoftheTime Now I can use polar coordinates to find the extremes
you use polar coordinates to solve the double integral
Yes, however now instead of $r$ I will use $\rho$
@SineoftheTime So the first integral is 0 because the function is odd with respect to the variable u?
On a symmetric domain
12:44
Ok then I solved it
Thanks for the help @SineoftheTime @VladimirLysikov @Gian'sPizzeria
@SineoftheTime But in these exercises, is it necessary to check whether the normal vector is coming out of or coming into S?
it depends on how you define the flux
@SineoftheTime In this case It said outgoing
what your convention on the sign of $n$?
@SineoftheTime For open surfaces, It can be determined by the orientation of the parameterization
what do you mean by open surface?
12:57
@SineoftheTime Not closed
then what's a closed surface?
It's a convention, usually you choose the unit normal vector with + sign, but I don't know what convention your professor adopts
@SineoftheTime is a surface that completely encloses a volume
closed = compact + no boundary
if the terminology is anything like in the rest of maths here at all
you should check your notes and see which convention is used for the unit normal vector when computing the flux
@BenSteffan then whats an open surface
13:02
@Jakobian a non-compact one, perhaps with boundary
whether boundary is allowed or not depends on context
really, this is bog standard terminology
it corresponds nicely with the fact that an open subset of the plane is an open surface under this definition, and perhaps that's where it originates
although I'd think it's more likely that closed was chosen for intuitive reasons and open as its antonym
usually in multivariable calc the definition of surface does not match with the definition given in a diff geometry course
well yeah, if what Pizza said is right then it would correspond to closed + orientable
you'll have trouble integrating over a Klein bottle
who cares about Klein bottles? :D
but presumably you're working in $\mathbb{R}^3$, so everything's orientable anyways
@SineoftheTime it's the useless brother to the projective plane, but it's rather well-known
13:22
I've never seen open to allow boundary
Joe
Joe
Assuming you are able to use the axiom of choice and well-ordering theorem, what is the easiest way to prove the Cantor-Schröder–Bernstein theorem? I have often seen the theorem being dismissed as trivial in the presence of choice, but I'm not exactly seeing the proof. Here is what I thought of, but it feels like the proof could be easier. It obviously suffices to show that if $\kappa$ and $\lambda$ are cardinals which inject into each other, then they are equal.
Assume without loss of generality that $\kappa\subseteq\lambda$. Since $\lambda$ injects into $\kappa$, there is a subset $S$ of $\kappa$ with the same cardinality as $\lambda$. Then, $S$ inherits a well-ordering from $\kappa$. Since $S\subseteq\kappa$, the order type $\operatorname{ord}(S)$ is less than or equal to $\kappa$.
But $\operatorname{ord}(S)=|S|=\lambda$, so $\lambda\subseteq\kappa$ and we are done. This didn't feel too easy, and it also relies upon the fact if $V$ and $W$ are well-ordered sets, and $V\subseteq W$, then $\operatorname{ord}(V)\le\operatorname{ord}(V)$ (which I think I know how to prove, but again doesn't seem completely straightforward).
13:36
I'm as frustrated as all Hell with my research. Tiny bits of progress here & there seem less frequent the more I work. I keep making arithmetical errors, even with the help of a computer. I haven't discovered anything "big" from this project yet, too; I'm doubting whether I'll get this PhD :/
if you don't discover something, you don't get the PhD?
There's a chance I could write up all the things I've tried and that could be my contribution to knowledge, but that's a long shot, @SineoftheTime
oh
research is frustrating
3
A PhD is about training in research after all. But you have to make a SOCK: a significant and original contribution to knowledge.
@SineoftheTime Yeah . . .
There could even be a Godelian statement that couldn't be proven. That's possible too.
What does your supervisor say about your progress?
13:56
He thinks I'm on track and that I'll complete on time. That's the official statement according to my second year progression. He said to me I could take longer than the allocated three years though.
I would say generally the supervisor estimates this better than you
So carry on
But that was more like a permission to do so . . .
True . . .
It's still frustrating. Sometimes I just want to know the damn answer!
I haven't proven a theorem in a couple of months.
I've gathered data though.
Small victories . . .
research is frustrating sometimes :(
I know, and I still enjoy it! It's like an abusive relationship.
person comes to chat and describes standard math phd experience :)
not that I'm in a position to evaluate
but I've heard a similar canon from quite a few people in the same position
so if anything this is an indicator that you're doing ok
14:08
@BenSteffan I hope so :)
Thanks :)
14:32
$F(x,y,z) = (x,y^2, 3z)$ the graph is defined by $9x^2 + 4y^2 = 36, 1 \leq z \leq 2$
I used the divergence theorem, so $4\iiint_Q dV + 2 \iiint_Q y dV$
The second integral should be 0
While for the first one I used $4 \cdot \mu(V) = 4 \cdot (\pi \cdot 2 \cdot 3 \cdot 1) = 24\pi$
@SineoftheTime Right? I tried to use what you told me the other time
I don't understand what you're supposed to do ?
flux through the surface?
Oh yes sorry, calculate the flux
@SineoftheTime Yes, sorry I didn't specify
The figure is an elliptical cylinder
flux through the whole surface right? Not only the lateral surface
It is written to calculate the flux of the field (...) coming out of the following surface ....
@Shaun hi. what are u researching
14:42
looks good, but it should be $\mu(Q)$
Right
in $\Bbb R^3$, you can write Volume($Q$) if you want
@Pizza I got $6\pi$
@Gian'sPizzeria how ?
@RyderRude Hi :) Diameters of Cayley graphs of SL(n,q) wrt certain types of subsets.
@Gian'sPizzeria did you consider also the flux through $\{z=1\}$ and $\{z=2\}$?
@Gian'sPizzeria Mmm
I used another method
I think you did it directly, but it should be the same
@SineoftheTime I simply calculated the flux
this does not answer my question
did you compute the flux through the 2 circles and the surface area of the cilinder?
But I calculated the total flux
So
The upper and lower bases are included
So by subtracting I should get what you got
compute the total flux and you should get the correct result@Gian
$3 \iint_D dudv=3 \mu(D)=3(\pi\cdot 2 \cdot 3)=18 \pi$
But so directly he found the flow coming out of the lateral surface of the elliptical cylinder
due to normal?
15:28
wdym?
@SineoftheTime Why he find only 6Ï€?
because he computed the flow through the lateral surface
you compute the flow through the whole surface
But then maybe I was wrong
I have to do the subtraction of the bases
why?
I asked you and you told that the flux is through the whole surface
not only the lateral one
I didn't understand what the text is asking for exactly
I interpreted it as if it were the total flux
15:44
@Joe Isn't the usual proof not using choice easy enough?
Joe
Joe
@Thorgott: Yeah I think the choiceless proof is fine; it's just that I've seen a lot of set theorists say that the proof is quite conceptually simple and easy in the presence of choice.
But I'm not seeing it...
I think the relevant Proposition is that one ordinal injects into another iff it is isomorphic to an initial segment of it
Why would i care the transition maps are smooth? i heard so we can differnetiate regardless of coordinate choice, however:
$\psi \circ f \circ \tilde{\varphi}^{-1}(\tilde{x}) = \psi \circ f \circ \tilde{\varphi}^{-1}(\tilde{\varphi} \circ \varphi^{-1}(x)) = \psi \circ f \circ \varphi^{-1}(x)
$

The Equality holds, if i know the left most side is smooth in x tilde, then the right most side is smooth in x, what interests me if the way i get there is smooth or not?
Joe
Joe
Is there a simple way of seeing this? My proof use the forward direction of the Proposition along the way. If $f:\alpha\to\beta$ is an injection, then the image of $f$ inherits a well-ordering from $\beta$. Then one can show that the order type of the image of $f$ must be $\le\beta$.
It just seems a bit more work than some people have been suggesting...
@Madder I don't see how you conclude that if the left side is smooth in $\tilde{x}$ then the right side is smooth in $x$
smoothness is a condition you have to check on a neighborhood; you've checked at a single point
to put it differently, the l.h.s. is a function of $\tilde{x}$, the r.h.s. one of $x$
15:56
Your comment confuses me, since you are kind of writing contradictory statements. Your first statement questions the the correctness of the said statement (Smoothness at the point) while your second confirms that i did show it is smooth at that point.
it very much does not
you have not shown smoothness anywhere
because smoothness is a local condition
to say a function is smooth at some $x$, you cannot just look at $f(x)$
you have to look at what $f$ does on a neighborhood of $x$
But is not smoothness just infinite differentiability. And as far as i remember, differentiability was defined at a point.
at a point, but please go and look up the definition of differentiability
in particular how the derivative of a function at a point is defined
Ok regardless (i will look it up again). The equations i provided is usually the way the textbooks conclude the smoothness indepndence.
perhaps so, but not the reasoning
because the reasoning uses that the transition map is smooth
if the l.h.s. is a smooth function of $\tilde{x}$, then the middle function is a smooth function of $x$ only when $\tilde{\varphi} \circ \varphi^{-1}$ is smooth (in general)
16:02
Due to the composition of smooth functions being smooth?I see.
I see. Thank you!
you can convince yourself that if you have a smooth map $f$ on, say, $\mathbb{R}^n$, and a non-smooth homeomorphism $\phi\colon \mathbb{R}^n \to \mathbb{R}^n$, then $f \circ \phi$ need not be smooth :)
Joe
Joe
Let $S$ be the image of $f$. Then, $S$ is well-ordered, so either $S$ and $\beta$ are order-isomorphic, or one is isomorphic to a (proper) initial segment of the other. Suppose for contradiction that $\beta$ were isomorphic to an initial segment of $S$, say $s(x)$. Consider the composite map $S\hookrightarrow \beta\simeq s(x)\hookrightarrow S$.
This map $\phi$ is increasing, and so $\phi(t)\ge t$ for all $t\in S$ (this is a general feature of order endomorphsims). By considering $\phi(x)$, we get a contradiction.
16:37
hey
17:29
strew
@Shaun sounds super complicated.... good luck
@Joe the Proposition I'm mentioning is used in proving that ordinals are linearly ordered
well, to be fair, I suppose the claims are more or less equivalent
your argument does make sense, of course
Joe
Joe
17:46
In Kunen's set theory, he manages to prove that the ordinals are linearly ordered without appealing to the Proposition. He first proves that if $V$ and $W$ are well-ordered, then exactly one of the following is true: $V\simeq W$; $V$ is isomorphic to an initial segment of $W$; $W$ is isomorphic to an initial segment of $V$. He then proves by transfinite induction that isomorphic ordinals are equal.
By combining these facts (and using the fact that an initial segment of an ordinal is an ordinal), we get that ordinals are linearly ordered.
@Joe yeah, that's also the line of argument I had in mind
it's basically equivalent, you just change the sequence in which you argue
Joe
Joe
So, if you know that ordinals are linearly ordered, is it obvious that one ordinal injects into another iff it is isomorphic to an initial segment of it? I don't know if I'm understanding you.
18:13
The negation of uniform continuity can be written as, tere exists epsilon>0 and 2 sequences xn and yn so that limit( |xn-yn|)=0, but |f(xn)-f(yn)|≥epsolon. Now, can I "append" or create a cauchy sequence using these xn and yn, so as to get a sequence zn that is cauchy, but f(zn) is non cauchy? I was thinking creating a sequence that is xn in even spot, and yn in odd spot, but I am not sure how to "extend" xn and yn meaningfully into cauchy sequences
As in, I want xn and yn that I got from the negation, to be part of a bigger sequence that is actually cauchy
Ok so this even odd idea might not work
Ok there seems to be no guarantee, xn yn themselves needn't be cauchy 🤦
Basically what I want @ the end of the day is to find a function f:(0,1) to (0,1) so that there exists a cauchy sequence xn in (0,1) tbut f(xn) is non cauchy
@RyderRude Thanks :)
18:35
bro found an integral on a bathroom wall
18:46
hey, i found quaternions on the floor of an Irish railway station.
some thug had carved them into a stone near Broom Bridge.
@nickbros123 you gotta embrace the mathjax
epsolon sounds like something from battlestar gallactica
@Joe well, that's what your earlier argument shows
19:04
my real name is joe, so responses aimed at others often catch my eye
@SineoftheTime 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@copper.hat Perhaps a Cylon played by Omar Epps?
:-) personally i would prefer Grace Park...
19:47
@copper.hat Joe Shmoe
Another one!
Well, my legal name is Joseph, but that was for when I misbehaved and my mother used my full name.
20:44
Above is Proposition 1.15 in Folland at the beginning of the section of Borel measures on $\mathbb R$ (he is trying to construct a measure from $F$). I'm baffled by the fact that he leaves $\mu_0$ undefined for intervals of the form $(a,\infty)$ and even $(-\infty,b]$. How would one define the premeasure for $(a,\infty)$ for example? Recall an h-interval is a set of the form $(a,b]$, $(a,\infty)$ or $\varnothing$, where $-\infty\leq a<b<\infty$.
Would you say $$\mu_0((a,\infty))=F(\infty)-F(a),$$where $F(\infty)=\lim_{n\to\infty}F(n)$ is sensible? Can we be sure the above is a well-defined expression if $a=-\infty$?
And $\mu_0((-\infty,b])=F(b)-F(-\infty)$.
21:19
It depends on what the algebra ${\cal A}$ is. Does the algebra contain unbounded intervals?
Also, usually a pre measure is defined on a countable collection of disjoint elements of an algebra, not just a finite number. One big difference is that the union must be an element of the Algebra, which would be a given in a $\sigma$-algebra.
Why does it bother you that it is not defined for unbounded intervals?
@copper.hat the algebra $\mathcal A$ is the finite disjoint union of h-intervals. Since h-intervals can be unbounded, the algebra contains unbounded intervals.
@copper.hat It bothers me cause the author writes $\mu_0$ is a premeasure on, note, the algebra $\mathcal A$ of finite disjoint unions of h-intervals. So if we plug in an h-interval of the form $(a,\infty)$, $\mu_0$ should be defined for those, since, as claimed, it is a premeasure on the algebra.
I don't have Folland, are you sure that unbounded intervals are included?
21:34
@copper.hat I'm pretty positive :(
I guess he defines $F$ on $[-\infty, +\infty]$.
Bugs me when stuff does not add up, but every book is like that.
21:54
@copper.hat I was thinking, perhaps the definition is enough as it is, with $(a_j,b_j]$ being bounded intervals. Because suppose we've proven countable additivity for sets of this form, then $$(a,\infty)=(a,a+1]\cup(a+1,a+1+1]\cup\cdots,$$ and so by countable additivity we get \begin{align}\mu_0((a,\infty))&=\lim_{n\to\infty}( F(a+1)-F(a)+F(a+2)-F(a+1)+\cdots+ F(a+n)-F(a+n-1))\\&=\lim_{n\to\infty}(F(a+n)-F(a)).\end{align}
An algebra does not have countable additivity
I would say it was an omission on Folland's part.
Meeh. Omissions are frustrating.
Probably eating a dog at the time, or something.
The algebra must include unbounded intervals since the complement of $[0,1)$ (for example) must also be in the algebra.
So, I would guess that he should have defined $F$ on $\pm \infty$.
and $a_i$ can be $-\infty$ and $b_i$ can be $+\infty$.
22:10
@copper.hat so would $(a,\infty]$ mean $(a,\infty)$?
The $h$ intervals do not include sets of the form $[a,b]$.
the definition of $h$-interval he gives seems fine to me
but you said $b_i$ can be $+\infty$, @copper.hat? So what does $(a,\infty]$ mean as a subset of $\mathbb R$?
Again, sets of the form $....b]$ are not part of the algebra.
no, $b_i$ can't be $+\infty$
rather, he should have told you what to with an interval of the from $(a_i, \infty)$
22:13
well, you can (must) have $(a,\infty)$.
and he does, by definition
that's an $h$-interval
my hunch for the proposition is that $a_j \neq -\infty$ is intended, so that the whole thing makes sense
(for all $j$)
The issue with mistakes here is that many of the related results are technical, devoid of any nice intuition, so it is not something one can gloss over.
so that the proposition is only about intervals $(a, b]$ with $a$ and $b$ finite, and everything works out :)
@BenSteffan that's my gut feeling as well...
well, since it is an algebra, it must contain $(-\infty,a] \cup (b, \infty)$.
so, $(-\infty$ and $+\infty)$ are ok.
22:17
ah, right
i have revisted this sort of stuff maybe a million times in my life and everytime I am reaching for Durrett or equivalent
this seems really sloppy
yeah, maybe I should email the author
good luck
well, i try not to spill my wine when doing probability or the like...
22:20
at least Folland is still alive, it seems
even though he's a prof. em. now
every book has some errors, usually at an early stage, presumably because it is fairly mundane stuff for authors at that point of their career.
diligent proofreading is a virtue not everybody possesses (cough Weibel cough)
it is tough, especially in mathematics, because errors and omissions can be very subtle.
that, too
and, for text books, since the ultimate results have passed the test of time, it receives little attention from 'above' except for nitpickers and spectrum folks like myself :-)
22:26
it's unreasonable to expect any book-length project to be completely devoid of errors, in maths or otherwise
@copper.hat if the stable homotopy people are supposed to be particularly good at proofreading I sure haven't noticed :-)
:-). forget mathematics, here is a letter i received a few days ago, look at the sincerely part imgur.com/a/iAM2058
should be Sheild, ofc
ai needs to work harder to get our jobs...
@copper.hat I found this. The first comment seems to suggest what you're suggesting.
Yes. We can use the definition as written if we extend $F$ to $\mathbb{R} \cup \{-\infty, +\infty\}$ by setting $F(-\infty) = \lim_{x \to -\infty} F(x)$ and $F(+\infty) = \lim_{x \to +\infty} F(x)$. These limits may be $-\infty$ or $+\infty$ respectively, but by monotonicity they exist. — Daniel Fischer Aug 2, 2017 at 15:45
I would trust Daniel's attention to detail more than Folland.
Note some authors define premeasures on countable collections (as long as the countable union is in the algebra).
Just so you don't get a fright when you stray.
22:38
ah :)
@copper.hat isn't it a fact that an increasing function $F$ on $\mathbb R$ has limits $F(\pm \infty) := \lim_{x \to \pm \infty}F(x)$? So there is no reason to extend it to the extended reals.
Well, (1) you can, and (2), you need $\mu_0 [a,\infty) = F(\infty)-F(a)$.
I would define it on $\pm \infty$ with limits and move on from the scene of the accident.

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