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01:20
@jakobian unfortunately i can't seem to find godel's incompleteness theorems from
that Zundamon's Theorem channel :P
from what I gather, the proofs hinge on some kind of cardinality arguments again?
it's also odd because it's like a meta theorem about formal systems and the proof is in a formal system?
@Obliv Yes. That is the argument. "Suppose that you have any function $f:\{0,1\}^{\mathbb{N}}$. That function cannot possibly be surjective for [reasons]."
@XanderHenderson Do you happen to know an outline for the incompleteness theorems? Do we define some sort of function or relation that 'connects' axioms to theorems or something
i guess that's for the first incompleteness theorem, idk about the consistency one
@Obliv Nope. Not my field. Not something I have ever found a need to understand deeply. It is just a thing that is.
 
2 hours later…
03:10
Hi, I am unable to post on MathStackExchange. I keep getting the error "Your post cannot be submitted at this time due to the volume of spam and abuse originating from your network. We apologize for any inconvenience.". I haven't tried to post on this forum previously, so I am not sure how did the spam originate. Could someone help pls?
03:35
The Academia.SE gets a lot of spam attacks.
Along with Math.SE.
@user20458579510081670432 so no solution? I was able to upload the same question to EconomicsSE. I hope I am not asked to post it on MathSE.
Sounds like the spam attacks on MathSE are from students trying to cheat on exams.
Yup, just be patient and wait it out 😴
The over worked volunteer moderators will handle it.
Thanks!
@Obliv Peano Arithmetic (PA) is a formal proof system. Statements and proofs must follow a very strict syntax.
Step 1: Encode sentences in PA as numbers (regardless of if they have a free variable or not).
Step 2: Encode proofs in PA as numbers. (These two steps are called "arithmetization.")
Step 3: If x encodes a sentence F with a free variable and y is a number, let sub(x,y) be the number encoding F(y) (i.e. y substituted into the free variable of F).
Step 4: Let P(x) be the sentence "the sentence encoded by x (has no free variables and) has no proof."
Step 5: Let n encode the sentence (with a free variable) P(sub(x,x)). Then n is simply a number.
[Small caveat. PA's syntax can't handle functions directly, so we need a workaround: instead of a function sub(x,y), you're going to want a sentence Sub(x,y,z) that's equivalent to sub(x,y)=z. Thus instead of n encoding P(sub(x,x)), it should really encode ∃y,Sub(x,x,y)∧P(y).]
Step 6: Note that sub(n,n) encodes P(sub(n,n)). (The construction of sub(n,n) - which is simply some integer - and the sentence it encodes is called "diagonalization.")
Step 7: P(sub(n,n)) is true but unprovable.
03:52
Step 8: (!?)
🤔
So this is Gödel's first incompleteness theorem.
(You can also get it indirectly from the halting problem, by considering the program that tests if programs halt by searching for proofs or disproofs of their haltingness.)
Does this theorem have a proof?
🧐
 
3 hours later…
07:20
Let $X_{(k)}$ denote the $k$th order variable of sample of size $n$, where $X_1,\ldots,X_n$ are the samples with distribution function $F$. I'm working the following problem;
> Problem: Suppose that $F$ is continuous. Compute $P(X_k=X_{(k)},k=1,2,\ldots,n)$, that is, the probability that the orginal, unordered sample is in fact (already) ordered.
I appreciate any hints on how to solve this.
 
1 hour later…
08:34
Maybe the answer to the above problem is simply $\frac1{n!}$. Grateful for a confirmation.
I just don't understand why we require $F$ to be continuous.
 
2 hours later…
10:40
If the entries are distinct , this is correct. But duplicates are not explicitely ruled out. In particular , if all entries are equal, the original sample is ordered with probability $1$.
@Peter ok, thanks. I guess I have things left to compute then. Do you see why we require $X_1,\ldots, X_n$ to come from a continuous distribution? I don't see why this is necessary.
No idea , since continuity does not rule out duplicates either.
@Peter I think it does rule out that $P(X_i=X_j)=0$ for $i\neq j$, but maybe I'm wrong. The way I'd argue is that $$P((X_1,X_2) \in A) = \int_A f(x,y)\, dxdy,$$i.e. $P(X_1=X_2) = \int_{y=x}f(x,y)\, dxdy$. But the set $A=\{(x,y):y=x\}$ is of Lebesgue measure $0$ in $\mathbb R^2$.
11:37
The theorem: "if f is surjective from A to B, then there is a bijection from B to a subset of A" uses axiom of choice right?
12:06
5
A: Why do we need axiom of choice to prove that if $f\colon A\to B$ is surjective, then there is $C\subseteq A$ such that $C$ and $B$ are equipotent?

Asaf KaragilaYes, you need to use the Axiom of Choice for this proof. Or rather the Partition Principle, which says that if $A$ can be mapped onto $B$, then $B$ can be injected into $A$. The range of such an injection is this set $C$ you're looking for. It is currently open whether or not the Partition Princi...

@user20458579510081670432 eat pizza
I don't understand the last part. Why (x_1,...,x_n) is a point of V?
cfp
cfp
Has activity on math.se declined? My questions never seem to get answers these days, even when I post a bounty... This one seems answerable, but only 58 views and 2 upvotes in a week of bounty. math.stackexchange.com/questions/4947604/…
@psie Here's a follow-up problem. Denote now by $X_{k;n}$ the $k$th order variable from a sample of size $n$, where $X_1,\ldots,X_n$ come from a continuous distribution $F$. Compute $P(X_{k;n}=X_{k;n+1})$, that is, the probability that the $k$th smallest observation is still the $k$th smallest one. Is this simply $1/n$?
12:25
@cfp Only 3 watchers of that tag, maybe that is a reason for not getting any answers
cfp
cfp
Sequences and series has 1500 watchers, and Functional Analysis has 1800. They should have seen it too right? There's nothing special about the last tag is there?
@SoumikMukherjee The above was in reply to Soumik sorry.
12:41
@cfp Unless they are knowledgeable in Laguerre polynomials, they can't engage to the question I guess
13:31
Wow, someone went through and down voted every question I had asked on MSE. it was reversed automatically, but I'm really curious who I triggered recently!
@copper.hat not me
13:47
@copper.hat happened to me a couple of weeks ago but it was not reversed
@copper.hat not me, I have an alibi
@SineoftheTime skill issues (of coper.hat's downvoter's)
14:03
:-)
 
1 hour later…
16:01
@Thorgott yeah I see this. So all the maps preserve $X\sqcup Y$ in this case (or, well, $X\times \{1\}\sqcup Y$ which is the same thing as we identify $X$ with $X\times \{1\}$ in the mapping cylinder)
 
1 hour later…
17:31
For a finite dimensional real vector space defining an inner product can be done by just choosing a basis and inner product is then just the sums of corresponding "coefficients" of a representation of vectors in that basis. I figure this cannot really be done in an infinite dimensional vector space (because of infinite sum issue) but still I'm curious whether there is some sort of similar statement at least for function spaces. For example let C[0,1] denote the vector space of continuous func
defined on [0,1]. We have the integral product well defined on this vector space. Is there some sort of basis for C[0,1] which gives rise to this inner product analogously to the finite dimensional case
17:44
@ephe "sums of corresponding "coefficients" of a representation of vectors in that basis"
can you explain what that means
I think he meant if $\{v_i\}_{i\in I}$ is a basis of $C([0,1])$ and $f(x)=\sum_i a_i v_i$, $g(x)=\sum_j b_j v_j$, then $\langle f,g \rangle =\sum_i a_i b_i$
@SineoftheTime Yes although not for C[0,1] just for a finite dimensional vector space
finite or infinite?
@ephe The "usual" inner product on $\mathbb{R}^n$ is something like $$ \langle x, y \rangle = \sum_{j=1}^{n} x_j y_j, $$ where the $x_j$ and $y_j$ are the "coefficients" of the basis vectors.
In the way @SineoftheTime indicated, while I was typing.
@ephe for an inner product space $X$, we can find an orthonormal basis $e_i$ so that any $x\in X$ is of the form $x = \sum_{i\in I} x_ie_i$ where the sum is meant to be convergent in the sense of being summable iirc
17:49
You can certainly do something similar in infinite dimensional spaces, replacing the sum with an integral.
But you do have to worry about convergence.
and it's not always easy to find a basis
In your case, we can probably give $C[0, 1]$ some kind of basis like $f_n(x) = x^n$
or well $C_n\cdot x^n$ where $C_n$ is a normalizing constant, I believe that does its thing
so how does the coefficients in such a basis correspond to the integral product
$C[0,1]$ is particularly nice, as it has countable bases, e.g. $\{x^n\}$ or $\{\cos(nx), \sin(nx)\}$.
@ephe $x_i = \langle x, e_i\rangle$
17:53
Sorry wrong questıon. I mean how do the "sums" of these coefficients correspond to taking an integral
what integral
In my example, you mean how $\sum_i a_i b_i =\int_0^1 f \bar g$ ??
@Jakobian the one in the integral inner product
I don't understand your question
I mean Xander said that "You can certainly do something similar in infinite dimensional spaces, replacing the sum with an integral."
so in the finite dimensional case we get an inner product by multiplying corresponding coefficients and adding them up
17:55
I think Xander just meant that you can define $x\cdot y = \int x\overline{y}$
@ephe The "standard" examples of inner products on spaces of functions are things like $$\langle f, g\rangle = \int f\overline{g}. $$
and this is analogous to the standard inner product on $\mathbb{R}^n$
Gah... I can't type.
@ephe in infinite-dimensional case you also do that
or, you can do that
the procedure for inner product spaces translates to arbitrary, both infinite and finite case
But that is not the integral product, correct? Just an actual sum.
17:57
just in the infinite case the sums aren't sums in the standard sense, but they are meant to converge in the given topology
@ephe yes, its a sum, convergent in the topology given from the inner product
@XanderHenderson yes, or $E(XY)$ :)
@psie Get your probability theory out of here.
But, also, $E(\cdot)$ is just an integral. You are changing the notation without really changing anything else.
@psie you're right but the notation $E$ is used when integrating over probability measures
I was just expecting the inner product to come about in a natural manner from summing these coefficients "in a continuous manner" whatever that means. Well thanks anyway!
I suppose integrals are also some kind of "infinite sums"...
18:00
Well the sum part is similar but the coefficient part is missing I suppose
@ephe I mean, there are, perhaps, ways of seeing the inner product as a sum of coefficients, e.g. by pfaffing about with the Fourier transform (which allows you to write functions on closed intervals as sums of the basis functions $\sin(nx)$ and $\cos(nx)$, but I am not sure that this is the most "natural" point of view.
@ephe $\langle x, y\rangle = \langle \sum x_i e_i, \sum y_ie_i\rangle = \sum_i x_iy_i$
maybe this equality will shed some light that this is the same?
@XanderHenderson I'll take it!
@Jakobian here you mean the regular inner product by summing elements right?
what do you mean by regular inner product
Well just summing up the products of coefficients
18:05
the Euclidean dude
in an appropriate manner
I mean arbitrary inner product space, with $e_i$ its orthonormal basis
not about $\mathbb{R}^n$
oh
as long as you are able to write $x, y$ in terms of this orthonormal basis, this can be e.g. $\sin(nx), \cos(nx)$ times appropriate constants, then you have their inner product
that equation might give me some more intuition about all this. Thank you!
18:08
But do note that when I say "write in terms of" I mean convergence in $L^2$
yes that is what I understood, thank you
The thing is, I don't think that most people think about summing coefficients in the way you are trying to think about it. An inner product is a function which has certain properties. That it. It is often possible to define an inner product on a vector space without having any idea about what basis might represent that vector space.
this procedure has a lot of analogy with how Fourier series works, and indeed there's some overlap
Of course, once you have defined an inner product, you can Gram-Schmidt yourself to a basis, and they, I suppose, rewrite the inner product in terms of summing up coefficients over that basis, but it seems kind of backward...
that's why if $x = \sum x_ie_i$ then $x_i$ are sometimes called the Fourier coefficients of $x$, even though they're just some numbers and this is an abstract inner product space
18:11
@XanderHenderson Oh no it's not really the way I think about inner product spaces really. My linear algebra course was way way more abstract than this. I was just curious if the coefficients part could somehow be molded into the sum <-> integral heuristic
@ephe If you have a countable basis (e.g. $C[0,1]$ has basis $\{ \sin(nx), \cos(nx)\}$), then it is still possible to write the inner product as an (infinite, countable) sum of coefficients. This is, essentially, the idea behind Parseval (or is it Plancherel...? I can never remember which is which...)).
10 mins ago, by Jakobian
@ephe $\langle x, y\rangle = \langle \sum x_i e_i, \sum y_ie_i\rangle = \sum_i x_iy_i$
this identity
@XanderHenderson Now in the form that is written that is absolutely exactly what i was looking for
okay no, the identity on wikipedia is weaker than what I wrote
I suppose I should have written $\langle x, y\rangle = \sum_i x_i\overline{y_i}$ if we are to care about spaces over $\mathbb{C}$
although it does follow from Parseval after some work en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
how to write the left right wave arrow?
18:21
@Jakobian I think your statement definitely looks more interesting because of the generality. I'll try proving this on my own.
$\leftrightsquigarrow$
18:59
@SoumikMukherjee detexify
$\leftrightsquigarrow$
19:50
does anyone know how to get from 1st to 2nd formula?
20:03
@MahNeh formulas are meaningless without context
 
1 hour later…
21:18
first formula is a product of matrices
basically i wonder whether the product of matrices XW1W2W3... can be represented as the second formula
can't find a simple demonstration @Jakobian
context, this isn't
@Jakobian i see, thanks !
my question is simple: is there a derivation for the formula for multiple matrix multiplications: ABCDEF... that would be similar to (1) (images above.)
22:23
@MahNeh to further emphasize, this is not sufficient context to be at all useful. in particular, you haven't said what $\sigma$ represents nor how matrix elements $A_{i,j}$ are showing up
i can maybe guess what the w_{i,j}^(k)'s and X_{i,j}'s are supposed to be but you can't just give two formulas containing entirely different elements and expect us to guess how they're related
it's pretty common in studying "dynamics" to want to consider long stacks of linear maps composed one after the other, sometimes in a 'time dependent' way (i.e. different maps at each multiplication) and sometimes when applying other maps on top of the linear maps (maybe what sigma is) and also not for that kind of stuff to simplify very much
or be at all easy to analyze
so if something nice is going on here it is because these maps are somehow 'choice' and related in ways that we cannot infer from the symbols used for them alone
it does seem to mostly come down to what $\sigma(W_k^\top X)$ is supposed to be
plus as ever the simplest advice is to start from simpler cases e.g. H=1
in which case it amounts to the claim $\sigma(W^\top X)=\sum_{ij} X_{i,j}A_{i,j}w_{i,j}$
that might by itself be enough to establish the general identity but i'm not willing to put in the effort
i guess it could be read as $\operatorname{tr}[W^\top (A\circ X)]$ where $\circ$ is element-wise multiplication
22:46
i and a lot of other people used to use sigma for something that took values in the scalars or at least the center of an operator algebra of interest, of which tr would be an example
if you go to the H=2 case, tho, this becomes (discarding q) $Y=\sigma(W_2^\top \sigma(W_1^\top X))$
which only makes sense if $\sigma(W_1^\top X)$ is also a matrix
so you'd need $\sigma(W_1^\top X)=\sum_{ij} X_{ij}A_{ij}w^{(1)}_{ij}$ and also $$\sigma(W_2^\top \sigma(W_1^\top X))=\sum_{ij} X_{ij}A_{ij}w^{(1)}_{ij}w^{(2)}_{ij}$$
imagine all the things we could do with actual information from the OP
2
Q: Continuous map obtained from smaller maps

monoidaltransformProblem: Consider $X$, a metric space and $I=[0,1]$. Let $C(I,X)$ denote the set of continuous paths in $X$ with the compact open topology. Assume $A\subseteq C(I,Y)$ and that are given a continuous function $\delta:X\rightarrow (0,\infty)$ with: For each $f\in A$, there exists a constant $r_{f}>...

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23:15
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