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20:12
@robjohn next it’s your turn to be the president
stand in 2028
I’ll definitely vote for you from outside america
@leslietownes how's the fam doing?
@Sahaj I don't have many political smarts and my family wasn't wealthy, so I don't think I'd have much of a chance.
smarts or money seems to be needed
better today!
coolio
@AlessandroCodenotti I realized this really boils down to local behaviour of dimension like you were trying to do. We have that the local small inductive dimension and small inductive dimension is the same, so surjective local homeomorphism preserves $\text{ind}$
20:24
**Theorem (First Existence Theorem of Intermediate Values):** A continuous function defined on a closed interval $[a, b]$ takes on all values between $f(a)$ and $f(b)$.

**Proof:** Without loss of generality, assume $f(a) \leq f(b)$. The objective is to prove that for any $y_0 \in [f(a), f(b)]$, there exists $x_0 \in [a, b]$ such that $f(x_0) = y_0$.

If $y_0 = f(a)$, then simply let $x_0 = a$. Similarly, if $y_0 = f(b)$, then let $x_0 = b$. Now, consider the case where $y_0 \in (f(a), f(b))$. Define the function:
Don’t worry. We’ll raise funds for you someday.
why with a function other than f(x) , is the theorem proven?
Do you think trump stands a chance in 2024? @robjohn
i dont understand this proof
you prove the intermediate value theorem by quoting the intermediate value theorem?
@Thorgott what
20:26
@Sahaj I fear he does.
what do you mean
not sure whats unclear of what ive said
More formally: If $f:X\to Y$ is such local homeomorphism, then cover $X$ by open sets for which restriction of $f$ to them is a homeomorphism onto its (open) image. The supremum over small inductive dimension of those sets is $\text{ind}(X)$, and their images have the same dimension. The supremum small inductive dimensions of their images is $\text{ind}(Y)$.
@robjohn Considering Biden’s age and apparent senility, I think a larger number of voters would be inclined towards trump
i.e. if $\mathcal{U}$ is an open cover of $X$ then $\sup\{\text{ind}(U) : U\in\mathcal{U}\} = \text{ind}(X)$
20:29
did you prove first that if $g(x)$ is continuous such that $g(a)<0$ and $g(b)>0$ then there's $x_0$ such that $g(x_0)=0$?
@Thorgott the proof is this on my book idk what to say:(
I believe this is right but don't quote me on that I didn't actually check it
In partition of unity, locally finite is assumed so that the final sum $\sum_i \theta_i(x) = 1$ is a finite sum . Why do we need this sum to be finite? Why is it a problem if the sum is not finite? Don't we only care about the sum equaling one?
@SineoftheTime yes i know this
@Lemon infinite sums are undefined
20:30
well, you have to read properly and then communicate properly what you have read
it does not matter if you know this. was it proven before this theorem?
@SineoftheTime no
the text you quote in turn quotes (presumably) some other part of that book (confusingly by the same name)
Oh wait. In your context $\theta_i$ are positive anyway
then you probably copied wrong or miss that part in the book
20:32
@Lemon finite sums are easy to work with, infinite sums exhibit all kinds of subtle behavior
(removed)
I'm talking gibberish today
@Thorgott yeah i get that, but is that really it?
@SineoftheTime yes wait
im fixing
sorry
20:34
well, why inconvenience yourself with infinite sums?
@Lemon you need an example
partitions of unity are first and foremost a tool, and tools should be convenient
@Thorgott because then the result is more general.
what result?
most spaces you'll consider will be paracompact
20:35
@Thorgott partition of unity.
and when they aren't it won't be worth considering
that's a definition, not a result
definitions are made so to be efficient relative to what they're used
**Theorem (First Existence Theorem of Intermediate Values):** A continuous function defined on a closed interval $[a, b]$ takes on all values between $f(a)$ and $f(b)$.

**Proof:** Without loss of generality, assume $f(a) \leq f(b)$. The objective is to prove that for any $y_0 \in [f(a), f(b)]$, there exists $x_0 \in [a, b]$ such that $f(x_0) = y_0$.

If $y_0 = f(a)$, then simply let $x_0 = a$. Similarly, if $y_0 = f(b)$, then let $x_0 = b$. Now, consider the case where $y_0 \in (f(a), f(b))$. Define the function:
well it might be phrased as a result
@Thorgott @SineoftheTime
20:36
partitions of unity doesn't follow directly from paracompactness for example
@Thorgott its sometime stated as a theorem in proving its existence.
the question is the same: did you prove "intermediate zero theorem" before this theorem?
@Jakobian there's actually a cute fact: any family of $[0,1]$-valued functions that is point-wise summable determines an open cover by preimages of $(0,1]$ on which a partition of unity exists
no because it wasn't required to prove it, but I know what it is
@Lemon well, proving a weaker statement is not a more general result then
20:39
okay apparently it is a definition first and foremost, so i guess we can do wtih it whatever we want.
yes, the point is what we intend to use it for
i see i see.
also, if that helps your conscience, as my reply to Jakobian above indicates, there is no sensible way of generalizing the notion to yield anything more general
thanks.
20:42
9 mins ago, by Lemon
(removed)
is a removed lemon still a lemon
@psie here's a naïve try: $\sum_{n\in\mathbb Z} c_n$ is just the function evaluated at $0$, so we have $$1=\sum_{n\in\mathbb Z} c_{2n}+\sum_{n\in\mathbb Z}c_{2n+1}=\frac{2}{2\pi}\int_{-\infty}^\infty \frac{\sin x} x dx.$$ And by evenness, we conclude that $\int_0^\infty \frac{\sin x} xdx=\frac{\pi}{2}$. But for this to work, I guess one requires absolute convergence of $\sum c_n$, so that one can rearrange it.
Is stackexchange ever expected to have a dark mode featurew
21:00
@Sahaj They are both showing signs of age. Trump has the advantage of having bullshit for so long that he can do it even while going senile. My great uncle, who had a great gift of gab, could use that after he had severe Alzheimers to make it seem as if he were fine. It was only when he did not recognize me that I knew he was not all there.
@Sahaj why would you want one?
Do the roots of the following equation:
$$\lim_{k\to \infty } \, \left(\sum _{n=1}^k (-1)^n x^{\binom{n-1}{c-1}}\right)=0$$
sit on a circle?
Exponents are binomial coefficients.
this is not a polynomial
what is $c$ actually
$c$ = an integer constant
okay so $\sum_{n=0}^\infty (-1)^{n+1} x^{\binom{n}{c}} = 0$
21:04
yes
@MatsGranvik positive integer?
yes. $c$ = positive integer.
**Theorem (First Existence Theorem of Intermediate Values):** A continuous function defined on a closed interval $[a, b]$ takes on all values between $f(a)$ and $f(b)$.

**Proof:** Without loss of generality, assume $f(a) \leq f(b)$. The objective is to prove that for any $y_0 \in [f(a), f(b)]$, there exists $x_0 \in [a, b]$ such that $f(x_0) = y_0$.

If $y_0 = f(a)$, then simply let $x_0 = a$. Similarly, if $y_0 = f(b)$, then let $x_0 = b$. Now, consider the case where $y_0 \in (f(a), f(b))$. Define the function:
why with a function other than f(x) , is the theorem proven?
@Jakobian it is easier on the eyes
@MatsGranvik did you try writing a recurrence for the function $S_c(x) = \sum_{n=0}^\infty (-1)^{n+1} x^{\binom{n}{c}}$ using Pascal's formula?
sorry bad advice
21:16
@user85795 yes, most apps on my phone are in dark mode. It helps a lot.
me too
I don't have much of a problem with dry eyes or anything and I don't use any "dark mode" anywhere
oh. Except for youtube
it should go without saying that some people use dark mode because they prefer it, not because of any problems with their eyes, or beliefs about how 'good' it is for them
user said its easier on the eyes
in my day, 'dark mode' was amber (or green) text on a black background, and we didn't call it 'dark mode' because it was the only mode
21:23
can someone help me with the thing above pls
from the article I've linked, it seems dark mode is worse for you
it decreases your ability for spotting errors it seems
On these tasks, participants both read faster and/or spotted more mistakes in the positive polarity condition (i.e. white mode)
study from 2013
was a meta analysis done
pizza: what do you mean by "with a function other than f(x)" in the last line? i don't understand that
user: no, we only pick apart the specifics of studies when they challenge our priors
@leslietownes the book prove the final part of the theorem with a function g(x) , which is different from f(x) , and I don't understand why this is valid
@leslietownes previous criminal convictions?
21:27
well, you have obtained an $x_0$ such that $f(x_0)=y_0$ at the end, which is all that was asked
pizza: okay. from the way g that is defined, a solution of g(x) = 0 is the same thing as a solution to f(x) = y_0.
but doesn't it matter that this thing was done with another function?
it doesn't matter how you arrive at an answer, only that you do so by a sequence of steps that logically imply another
if it is yes , why?
no, it doesn't
21:29
why
tongue-in-cheek, but: why not?
I'm not against people using darker mode, but it does seem like people have stereotypes about white mode being bad (as the article shows, it isn't).
from the way that g is defined, a solution of g(x) = 0 is the same thing as a solution to f(x) = y_0
In particular no one ever proved that it causes eye strain
ah ok thanks @leslietownes @Thorgott
21:30
so if you're looking to prove that a solution to f(x) = y_0 exists, and you have a result that you can use like a black box to prove that roots of functions exist, you can use that result in any way you like
including by applying it to a function that isn't named "f"
perhaps people have underdeveloped receptors to light because of overusing dark modes in their apps
@leslietownes okok
a background thing that's maybe confusing here, is why this textbook/treatment has chosen to give the "assumes the value 0" case of the intermediate value theorem a prominence that it maybe doesn't deserve
but we don't need to know why they did that, to be able to use that case like a black box
yeah, I don't like this lol
but it is what it is
I know that if you change from dark to white mode, it can feel bad, even as it "burns your eyes". And I think this is just that, you don't have developed light receptors because you were using too much dark mode. Similarly pirates used this as a strategy, that's why they wear eye-patches
To have well-developed receptors you can't sit only in the dark, otherwise you'll feel like the light is burning your eyes
21:35
what do you think of this question
I thought you were linking me science behind eye-patches
it looks interesting, I definitely seen Vietoris topology and compact-open topology before, so I'm familiar
Alessandro told me of the Vietoris topology once, but I have no clue whether I should expect it to behave well as a topology on C(X,Y) or not
evalutaion map seems to be just $C\mapsto \pi(C)$ where $\pi$ is projection
I have a feeling that since projection is continuous, the induced map from $\mathcal{H}(X\times Y)\to \mathcal{H}(Y)$ is also continuous
21:40
I would hope that's the case
About the last part
about its well-definedness
and bijectivity
If $X$ is locally compact then for this to hold, the topology needs to be compact-open topology
and there can be no such topology on $C(X, Y)$
so that homeomorphism is probably out of the window
oh wait
$C(Y, Z)$ sorry
Example here is to take $Y = \mathbb{Q}$ and $Z = [0, 1]$
assuming $Y$ is locally compact
if the evaluation map will be continuous iff the topology on $C(Y, Z)$ contains the compact-open topology
I mean $\text{ev}$ here
personally I think the question should be closed tbh
too many questions in one
@XanderHenderson where is Xander when you need them
@Thorgott If you want to play with this, look in chapter 12, section 10 of Dugundji, note that he assumes spaces are Hausdorff
he describes what topologies have good properties with respect to the evaluation map and so on
see my question here for some more examples/counter-examples
for instance a more general family of spaces for which $\varphi$ is not a bijection
you just take $Y$ to be a Tychonoff space which is not locally compact and $Z = [0, 1]$
this generates you a massive amount of examples where there is no good enough topology on $C(Y, Z)$ that makes $\varphi$ bijective
a bit of a notational clash because I denote $\varphi$ to be evaluation map
@Jakobian I'm just mentioning this to state that $\mathbb{Q}$ isn't really important here. Its just one of many examples
22:09
i see, thanks for the info
I kind of like the largest splitting topology on $C(X, Y)$, its like this esoteric topology that you don't know how to write explicitly unless $X$ is locally compact, where it coincides with compact-open
Thinking about it, this should be your go-to topology on $C(X, Y)$ probably
i.e. one for which continuity of a map $T\times X\to Y$ implies continuity of $T\to C(X, Y)$
perhaps that would be better thing to do than considering compact-open
but then, is it applicable? Probably not
Basic question. I know that under absolute convergence $$\sum a_n=\sum a_{2n}+\sum a_{2n+1}.$$ Can the "absolute convergence" condition be relaxed a bit so that it isn't required, but something else?
psie i don't know what is originating this question but i suspect you might be thinking way too formally about all of this. has anyone in your book or class or whatever it is said 'just do this formally'
i say this only because fourier series (where i think this is coming from because of your general questions) are notorious for being difficult to analyze and not being amenable to the usual calc 2 convergence tests even when they converge
yeah ok, I give in :)
and if someone has ever implicitly given you permission not to care about issues like that, it's probably a sign that you should take the hint
i realize i'm using the term 'formally' in its two very distinct senses up above but i expect that you understand
22:23
understood
if someone is writing "sum_{n in Z} a_n" without saying anything about how they are ordering Z or otherwise exhausting Z by finite subsets, and without any guarantee that the sum is absolutely convergent, they are probably inviting you not to care about those things
which btw are legit things to care about
just maybe not now
@psie Why is $\sum c_n$ evaluating to $f(0)$?
leslie: why did you use " " instead of $ $ :(
@Jakobian esoteric indeed, never heard of it
@leslie How is the sick bay going?
22:26
@TedShifrin because $f(x)=\sum c_n e^{inx}$, no? (assuming the Fourier series converges to the function)
there the quotes are intended to indicate that the thing inside the quotes may not have meaning
Oh, assuming it converges pointwise.
@Jakobian it's just the larges topology with this property?
yeah
ted: everyone is back to normal (well, as normal as we get)
22:27
Wow, @leslie. That was quick.
I was trying to get it out of fancier stuff which wasn't working.
it's amazing that pointwise convergence of fourier series is such a delicate thing in general
Indeed.
it's either proof that the devil exists, or that god doesn't want people to get too high and mighty
ted: yeah, one of those bugs that incapacitates for about 24 hours and then departs
I was trying to get it out of the isometry between $f$ and $\hat f$, but taking the inner product with the delta function has its problems.
Even though physicists don't care, $\delta$ is not in $L^2$. Sigh.
@Thorgott yeah
the point is that there always is a largest one
22:30
is that even bifunctorial?
what do you mean
does it make post- and pre-composition with continuous functions itself a continuous map between function spaces
cause one thing I like about the C-O topology is that that always holds, even when the exponential law doesn't
@DanielDonnelly maybe. If I can help. what kind ?
@Thorgott what a funny coincidence, I got confused by the difference between the compact open topology and convergence of the images in the Vietoris topology earlier today
@Thorgott I think you want to consider a certain map $C(T, Y)\times X \to Y$ which would induce a desired map $C(T, Y)\to C(X, Y)$
for one of the compositions
$(h, x)\mapsto h(f(x))$ or something
but then the question is why is this continuous
ah. Because compact-open is smaller
okay so $h\mapsto h\circ f$ is continuous
not sure if you call this pre- or post-composition
and then for other one you'd like a continuous map $C(X, Y)\to C(X, T)$
22:46
which map goes from where to where here?
you're a category theory person, just look at context
all spaces have largest splitting topology
actually wait I'm doing a wrong thing
yeah ok, this is pre-composition with $f\colon X\rightarrow T$
but it's not clear to me why the first map is continuous
this seems like asking evaluation to be continuous
yeah. So I'm obviously wrong because of that
I actually don't know, guess its best to look in the literature
surely false if it's not obviously true
Dugundji doesn't even have bibliography
what the hell
23:01
proof that general topology is psychopathy
this is from original paper by Fox
(the father of compact-open topology)
it does say that those types of sets cannot be open not sure if we can exploit it somehow
we know our topology is larger than compact-open one
in fact it says those types of sets have empty interior
Suppose that the compact-open topology is strictly smaller than the largest splitting topology, perhaps we can then exhibit such set
I believe taking $X = \mathbb{Q}$ should provide an example where its strictly smaller
Take all measure $1$ subsets of $[0, 1]$ and consider their intersection. What do you get?
23:16
empty set
Quite. But it still has a nontrivial "induced topology"
what do you mean
no thanks closes door
Namely, consider the lattice of open sets in $[0, 1]$ modulo the equivalence relation that you identify two open sets if they differ by measure 0 sets.
This is called a "locale" or a "pointless topology"
The "pointless space" we create in this way is the "locale of random reals between 0 and 1"
The measure also descends to the locale
nurse, he's out of bed again
23:20
lol
oh I know. What if we take topology generated by sets $\{f : f(A)\subseteq U\}$ where $A$ is closed and $U$ is open and try to show its splitting?
it won't be splitting in general but what about $\mathbb{Q}$
or instead of all closed sets just take some closed sets
then we could apply lemma 2 from Fox paper and obtain that $h\mapsto h\cdot f$ is not continuous or whatever, maybe he meant $h\mapsto f\cdot h$ I don't know
we'd have to show that continuity of a map $T\times\mathbb{Q}\to \mathbb{R}$ implies continuity of an induced map $T\to C(\mathbb{Q}, \mathbb{R})$
this should be equivalent to pre-image of $M(A, U) = \{f: f(A)\subseteq U\}$ being open in $T$
(say, we only add it for one closed non-compact set $A$ for simplicity)
If $g:T\times\mathbb{Q}\to\mathbb{R}$ denotes this map then the other map is given by $\hat g:t\mapsto g(t, \cdot)$
$\hat g^{-1}(M(A, U)) = \{t\in T : g(\{t\}\times A)\subseteq U\}$
so we need, given arbitrary continuous map $g:T\times\mathbb{Q}\to\mathbb{R}$ for $\{t\in T : g(\{t\}\times A)\subseteq U\}$ to be open
but tube lemma suggests this can't be
or does it
$g^{-1}(U)$ isn't just arbitrary open set, thats kind of the point
$A = \mathbb{Q}$ lets say
23:43
Is this proof correct: Question: Suppose that $G$ is a graph on $n$ vertices that contains no subgraph isomorphic to $F$. Suppose also that the number of independent sets of size $t$ in $G$ is at most $n^{t/2}$. Prove that the Ramsey number $r(F, K_t) \geq \sqrt{n}$.
Solution: Consider a random set $S$ by choosing each vertex with probability $p$ independently. Let $X = |S|$ and $Y$ be the number of occupied edges. For a fixed edge $e \in E$, define $Y_e$ as the indicator variable that all vertices in $e$ are chosen. The probability that $Y_e = 1$ is $p^t$.

By linearity of expectations, we have $\mathbb{E}(X) = np$ and $\mathbb{E}(Y) = \sum_{e \in E} \mathbb{E}(Y_e) = mp^t$, where $m$ is the total number of edges. The alteration involves removing one vertex from each edge, resulting in an independent set $I$. Thus, $\mathbb{E}(|I|) = \mathbb{E}(X) - \m
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