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00:02
@Jakobian do you have any clue how to show $K_n\cap S=\emptyset$?
There is the following hint in the exercise:
For the first part, begin by showing that there exists a positive integer $\nu$ such that $B\subset K_n$ for all $n\geq \nu$. Then suppose that for each $n\geq \nu$ there exists $s_n\in K_n\cap S$. Show that there exists a subsequence $(s_{n_k})$ converging to $x$, and hence find $k$ such that $s_{n_k}\in K\cap S$, a contradiction.
I don't understand what would be contradicted...
00:32
@Jakobian how does one prove this statement by the way:
> If $B$ is contained in the interior of $K$, then $d(B, \partial K) > 0$.
@psie this was helpful
01:01
@psie the sets are compact and disjoint
Maybe best to consider the center $z$ of $B$
the point is that we can extend the ball $B$ a little bit without going outside of $K$
(for the $B\subset K_n$ part)
01:33
I need to construct a faithful representation of the frobenius group $F_{20}$ of degree 4. I knew in particular I can realize $F_{20}$ to be the group generating by the relations $x^5=y^4=1$ and $xy=y^2x$. The representation is supposed to be over $F_5$. I can map $y$ to the diagonal matrix with entries $1,2,3,4$, but I not sure what $x$ should be...
Do anyone have an idea?
@Jakobian thanks for helping. Could you explain how the inequality $\frac{1}{n}d(y, x) < d(B, \partial K)$ for large $n$ implies $B\subset K_n$?
01:56
@psie $d(B, \partial K) = d(B, K^c)$
If $z\in B-\frac{1}{n}(y-x)$ then $d(z, K^c) \geq d(z+\frac{1}{n}(y-x), K^c) - d(z, z+\frac{1}{n}(y-x))$
the right side is positive
so $z\notin K^c$
I'm a bit sloppy with this but its also late
@Jakobian is $B-\frac1{n}(y-x)=\{b-\frac1{n}(y-x); b\in B\}$?
@psie yeah
ok πŸ™
02:29
Geometry with zero pictures … πŸ€·β€β™‚οΈ
02:50
oh no even $x$ I maps it wrong
 
1 hour later…
04:03
ted: stackexchange seems to have unconstitutionally barred the middle finger emoji from its list of emojis that are supported in chat, but a pair of those would also work
04:25
Were you planning on using it on me?
no, it's just an alternative perspective on doing geometry with no pictures
as a provocation akin to the doubled birdie
i think the twin birdie might be the only picture in spanier's algebraic topology text
04:43
I have no recollection.
05:38
@TedShifrin just imagine the picture if that bothers you
no one ever forbid using imagination in the chatroom
It’s not me I’m worried about.
05:57
Then draw Sunny a picture
 
4 hours later…
Mad
Mad
09:44
For local coordinates on a manifold, one wants to show by using defintion, that it satisfy the leibniz rule, by x denote local coordinates, by u the standard on R^n the proof goes as follows for a chart phi.
D fg)
Partial derivative of (fg) at p in respect to xi= partial of (fg composed phi-1) of phi(p) in respect to ui = partial of ( f composed phi-1).(g composed phi-1) of phi(p) in respect to dui
Sorry i am on my phone.
How does the third equality arise? The composition of product is not defined like this
 
1 hour later…
11:14
> 'it' satisfy the leibniz rule
Would be great if you defined a few things for those not following your text πŸ‘
Mad
Mad
I am talking about tangent vectors
11:52
@Jakobian I'm not sure if this answer is correct, but if it is, then I don't believe your statement is correct either.
12:02
Also, I'd be very grateful if you could explain why the right-hand side of $d(z, K^c) \geq d(z+\frac{1}{n}(y-x), K^c) - d(z, z+\frac{1}{n}(y-x))$ is positive?
12:13
and what can one conclude from the fact that $z\in B-\frac1{n}(y-x)$, but $z\not\in K^c$?
12:25
@psie those are balls
I'm not saying it holds in generality
Forget about the boundary its not needed anywhere
ok πŸ‘
@psie whats that part after the minus, hmm
$\frac{1}{n}\|x-y\|$
Or $\frac{1}{n}d(x, y)$
@psie $z\not\in K^c$ is just another way to say $z\in K$
So $B-\frac{1}{n}(x-y)\subseteq K$
ah, nice
Or $B\subseteq K_n$
@Jakobian and $d(z+\frac{1}{n}(y-x), K^c)$ is positive because $z+\frac{1}{n}(y-x)$ is a point in $B$ which is contained in $K$
12:32
Its not just positive, its larger than $d(B, K^c)$
we have $d(z+\frac{1}{n}(y-x), K^c)\geq d(B, K^c)$, right? $d(B, K^c)$ considers all points in $B$ whereas $d(z+\frac{1}{n}(y-x), K^c)$ only considers the single point $z+\frac{1}{n}(y-x)$ in $B$, so potentially they could be equal
this first part has clarified a lot now, thanks
Not strictly larger, just greater than
Thats only when $B$ is in the interior
If $B$ intersects the ball then this will depend on strict convexity of the ball $K$
Think of it as nudging the ball $B$ in a certain direction according to the point $x$
Actually let me draw a picture
yay :)
I also drew a picture of the two scenarios. I do not really understand why $y$ gets to be the center of the ball in one scenario and the intersection with $K$ in the other. This still remains a mystery to me.
It seems like the center of the ball $B$ becomes meaningless when $B$ intersects $K$.
12:58
Hope you can rotate this
The issue is that this has to require strict convexity of K. So we need to use some argument involving dot product if we are to formally prove it
The set $S$ is irrelevant apart from point $x$ it places on the circle
dumb question maybe, but what's the meaning of the arrow from the point $y$? Is there an origin in your picture somewhere?
Its the vector $(x-y)/n$
ah ok
As for origin we might rotate and translate it to the origin
Using an ortogonal matrix
@Jakobian if $n=1$, the arrow would go all the way to the point $x$, right?
13:10
Yes
@Jakobian but $K$ being a closed ball makes it convex, right?
Thats not relevant
@psie Open balls are convex, too...
Convexity alone is too weak of a property to prove this
(Though I am not paying an real attention to what y'all are talking about).
13:26
@Jakobian I think I've lost the thread, prove that $B\subseteq K_n$, right? By the way, can I use your picture in case I take this question elsewhere?
@psie yes
ok, thank you!
πŸ‘
It boils down to that for large enough $n$ we have $\frac{1}{n}x-re_1\|<r$
13:30
@Jakobian geez... bad handwriting
Hello @XanderHenderson , how are you?
@LuckyChouhan Awake.
@XanderHenderson nice, how is life?
@LuckyChouhan bad person
Busy.
@LuckyChouhan It is legible enough. Better than mine...
@Jakobian hello Jako, how are you doing?
@XanderHenderson His "r" sucks. People make "r" as a flower pot..
Flower pot?
@XanderHenderson this handwriting is very close to doctors'
That "r" looks fine to me...
@LuckyChouhan Well, I am a doctor...
@XanderHenderson yeah, doctor of math :)
13:35
That, by the way, is me working very hard to write slowly and legibly. My notes to myself are much worse.
how are your kids and wifey?
@LuckyChouhan Yeah... what were you thinking?
@XanderHenderson type in latex.
@LuckyChouhan Not very functional for lecture.
@XanderHenderson do you like programming?
13:36
@LuckyChouhan Not particularly.
I write in cursive and my r is fine, thank you very much
@Jakobian lol, who says it is cursive writing. You made me laugh :)
@XanderHenderson then how do you spend your day?
@LuckyChouhan Is that a serious question?
You also make me laugh but in the negative
@XanderHenderson yeah, as you're a doctor so may be I can learn something from your schedule and implement in my life :') please sir.
13:39
@LuckyChouhan I teach at a community college. Most days are spent either preparing lectures, giving lectures, or grading student work. On Fridays, we don't teach---we have meetings instead. I am currently chair of the Instructional Council, so every other Friday I get to spend three hours leading that meeting.
Very rarely, I find the time to think about actual mathematics, and pretend to work on this stupid paper that I really need to get out before I die.
@XanderHenderson sounds nice, work hard to play hard.
When I am not working, I sometimes get a little time to play a video game or watch a movie.
@XanderHenderson because of workload??
then what do you like besides academia?
I don't understand the question....
What is there aside from academia?
@XanderHenderson πŸ‘ŒπŸ‘ŒπŸ‘ŒπŸ˜
13:42
For the record, the Star Ocean 2 remake was quite good.
@XanderHenderson like sports, hanging out with friends and something like this. Oh I was about to write programming and reading non-fiction book
@LuckyChouhan I'm too old for sports. I used to fence, but that pretty much wrecked my knees. I do like to go hiking, and live in one of the best places in the world for it.
seriously??
And I sometimes make it down to Show Low to play nerdy cards at the game shop.
You're a Dutch Uncle...
13:44
@XanderHenderson for a second I thought you're talking about JoJo's bizzare adventure
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median says that "...any probability distribution has at least 1 median...", given the definition: "let X be a random variable on $R$, and if $x_0$ obeys the following: $P(X<x_0)\leq \frac{1}{2}$ and $P(X \leq x_0) \geq \frac{1}{2}$ then $x_0$ is a median of $X$" im unable to show that the existence is guaranteed for a general probability distribution
@Jakobian No. JoJo stole the name. Just like they did with all the other names. :P
@LuckyChouhan I have no idea what that means...
@XanderHenderson Dutch Uncle is a term for a person who gives you honest feedback, but sadly this term has gotten lost in book
Do you know about Randy Pausch's The Last Lecture?
@LuckyChouhan Yes.
@XanderHenderson wow, then you liked that?
13:48
@LuckyChouhan Did I "like" it? I don't know that I remember it all that well. My recollection is that it was a lot of uplifting (though not necessarily useful) advice given by a person with a terminal cancer diagnosis.
@nickbros123 Take $\inf \{t : P(X\leq t)\geq 1/2\}$
Distribution function is right continuous so this is actually the minimum
14:02
@psie $\|x/n-re_1\|^2 = r_k^2/n^2-2rx_1/n + r^2$
Since $x_1 > 0$, $r_k^2/n - 2rx_1 < 0$ for big enough $n$
So above is $< r$ for big enough $n$
As for $S$, this is a little subtle since we need to shift it and pay attention to other sides of the ball
14:55
@Jakobian ah, this ones good!
ive seen a vaguely similar proof, atleast in approach for the proof that no non empty proper subset of $\mathbb{R}^n$ is both open and closed
15:20
@nickbros123 well thats not really that connected
Pun intended
Its about the interval being connected
Which boils down to completeness of R, yes
But thats really just that, completeness of R
In both cases
im not saying its the same, just vaguely similar.
its just that in both cases, we consider two sets and we have the notion of proving there exists one number in both sets (in the clopen problem, its $S$ and $\mathbb{R}^n-S$.)
these are just some random thoughts dont take me too seriously
@nickbros123 maybe you don't know, but this clopen problem is essentially just that $\mathbb{R}^n$ is connected. This is what it means
to be connected is to not contain a non-empty proper clopen subset
well, regardless of how you proved it, it boils down to intervals and their completeness
They are similar yes, we use that there exist suprema and infima in real numbers. But its just that
you're correct but the connection isn't deep
@nickbros123 I don't see why don't we discuss about it? It certainly can be made very formal
there is a precise reason why this appeals to your intuition here
16:06
@Jakobian I havent learnt about the concept of connectedness, but I did assume a function $f:[0,1]\to \mathbb{R}^n$ of the form $\vec x_0+t(\vec y_0 -\vec x_0)$ for two points $x_0, y_0$ in $\mathbb{R}^n$. my knowledge of basic topology of $\mathbb{R}^n$ comes from Hubbard and Hubbard, they didnt talk on this (atleast not in the 1st chapter)
16:23
That looks like convexity
(which implies path connectedness)
(which implies connectedness)
@nickbros123 what do you mean assumed function?
A space is connected when it can't be written as union of two disjoint open sets in non-trivial way
or equivalently, the only clopen sets are $\emptyset$ and the space itself
@Jakobian sry, i meant i just used such a function
@Khallil sure but we're talking about fundamentals, like why path-connectedness implies connectedness
this and this implication holds but ultimately the reason is that $[0, 1]$ is connected and this boils down to completeness of $\mathbb{R}$
completeness and some other property I forgot about
16:53
@nickbros123 well its a little sad they didn't talk about connectedness at all, since its one of the most fundamental concepts in topology
In my opinion, any introduction to topology should include connected and compact sets at least
and I'm not talking about any advanced introduction, I'm talking about the basic stuff everyone uses
17:05
@Jakobian they only really spoke about open n clsoed sets, sequential definition of closed sets, closure, interior (left a few proofs regarding closure n interior), and didnt speak on the clopen stuff.
@Jakobian im not sure if that was what the authors had in mind
17:58
Hello every one
@nickbros123 introduction, even basic one, should include those two concepts in some way
i could see a book that is closer to a 'vector calculus' book than an 'analysis' book in orientation hitting some of those concepts but not the others
Indeed. One introduces precisely the concepts one actually needs to use, as there is already not enough time in the course.
18:14
ted you'll like this. munchkin earned a cookie for doing a week of reading practice at home. instead of waiting to be given the cookie after dinner she did this: when my wife got up mid-meal to get something from the kitchen for the baby, munchkin called out "i guess i'm ready for the cookie"
@OussamaBasta Hi! Was that message done with backticks `?
@leslie She had your wife's best interests at heart. Why waste a trip?
BTW, I told Xander that Munchkin would help him count past 7.
did i ever tell you about the time she was talking maybe a little too much to another kid's dad at the pool, and i sarcastically asked her if she could count to a hundred, and then she did that
No, but I had confidence in her. And I still believe she is way beyond $3$ $2$s equals $2$ $3$s :D
I'm sure that, now that she has competition at home, she'll want even more attention away from home.
18:33
HA! Got through the entire agenda, and adjourned the meeting with 15 seconds to spare!
I am good at my job!
(On some rare days.)
@TedShifrin sure, but can you really say its an introduction to topology, even basic one, then? I don't think so
@TedShifrin To be clear, I don't even believe in numbers that large.
Jun 23, 2018 at 20:31, by Xander Henderson
Personally, I am three-ist. I don't believe that there is any number larger than 3.
No one was talking about an introduction to topology ... except you.
Hi, I'm trying to calculate $$\frac{\sum_{d=4}^{98} d(99-d)(d-1)(d-2)(d-3)}{\sum_{d=4}^{98} (99-d)(d-1)(d-2)(d-3)}$$. It simplifies to a neat 200/3, but I fail to find a way to actually go about simplifying this. Any help will be appreciated. I tried to simplify the expression by writing binomial coefficients in place of the products but that doesn't not make it anymore obvious.
@Sahaj All I can say is ... UGH.
18:40
Yes, it is an absolute UGH.
So this is the average value of the function $n$ on $[4,98]\cap\Bbb Z$ with respect to some unusual weighted measure.
yh i was gonna say, looks like an expectation value
Yes, it appears to be some average. Although not obvious how that helps
I don't think there is any nice solution.
@TedShifrin sure. Anyway, Nick needs more exposure to topology, speaking in general
it'll be helpful for the future
18:43
thats an understatement lol
not really an understatement, I'm talking from perspective of applications to math
There's no need for a lot but you need to be introduced to those concepts in the future
ill first have to solidify my analysis
real^
you need those basic concepts like compactness and connectedness for analysis
I think what would suit here is some book about real analysis that does more topology than Hubbard and Hubbard
Once I officially switch over to math major I'll start apostol
Next semester
"Dianetics" is a little light on general metric space theory although he does work things out in R^n
18:56
You're an L Ron fan?
the only Hubbard i know
is Hubbard and Hubbard not a scientology book
@leslietownes It's like extra science-tology.
@psie Maybe you missed it, but I've also included solution when $\overline{B}$ intersects the boundary of $K$
@Jakobian ok, let's see, do you mean here?
I'm assuming there is something missing in what you write and either $B$ is open or we need $B\subseteq K_n^\circ$
19:05
@nickbros123 Apostol is the dual of Rudin
@psie yeah
oh well I don't think it matters if they are closed or not
but yeah the idea is to shift, rotate, and then its just analysis
I did the same thing in my Bachelor thesis
19:24
I am trying to construct representations of the frobenius group $F_{20}$, I suppose the representation is construct over the field $F_5$ since it is indicated in the questions that it has four distinct one dimensional representation. But I am not sure how to construct a faithful four dimensional one. Do anyone have a clue?
19:38
@Jakobian cool :) dumb question maybe, but why is the center of ball $B$, which you denote by $r_be_1$, below that of $K$'s center?
you write $r_ke_1$ for $K$'s center, and I assume $e_1$ is some basis vector here
oscar: i am not sure that the average weird math nerd has any idea of what 'the frobenius group F_20' is. is it defined to be, or otherwise equal to, the group realized on slide 9 of sporadic.stanford.edu/Math122/lecture14.pdf (roughly speaking, the "ax+b" group of affine transformations of F_5)?
oscar: because if you look at page 7 of albany.edu/~mz498674/waffle_paper.pdf, "exercise 4.5" on numbered page 103, they give formulas for a 4d representation of that group ("epsilon_5" is a primitive 5th root of unity)
daniel bump's order 4 and order 5 generators "h" and "k" [first doc] correspond to the second doc's "b" and "a", respectively
20:00
as a high school student you guys' math sounds like alien gibberish to me
so the order 4 thing goes to a "shift the coordinates" operator, and the order 5 thing goes to a multiplication operator, with appropriate powers of the root of unity on the diagonal
sahaj: you should hear what our math says about you
@Jakobian I have a couple of questions about your notes, I hope it's okay I ask (not expecting any reply or so):
how do you motivate $\lVert z-r_be_1\rVert <r_b \implies \lVert z+\frac1{n}x-r_ke_1\rVert<r_k$?
Then you go on to conclude $\lVert z+\frac1{n}x-r_ke_1\rVert<r_b +\lVert\frac1{n}x-(r_k-r_b)e_1\rVert$. What did you use here?
@Jakobian and finally here, what is $x_1$?
@Sahaj high school math is the alphabet of advanced mathematics.
sahaj: i totally get that, haha, but wouldn't it somehow be weirder if non high school math didn't sound like gibberish by comparison
"graph this parabola. i mean, really graph it. use expensive paper and a laser stylus"
20:21
How do you prove that 4\cdot 100^k-31=9n^2 has no integral solution. I don't find any mod for a contradiction.
@Sahaj Has anyone told you that a monad is just a monoid in the category of endofunctors yet?
Unfortunately not
@psie Because I rotated it
I did it in such a way that the center of $B$ is below that of $K$
and they're both unit vector $e_1$ multiplied by a constant
@psie this is what it means for $z\in B$ to imply $z\in K_n$
@psie triangle inequality
@DavidP try mod $11$ which gives $2\equiv 3n^2$ which has no solutions
@psie first coordinate of $x$
@DavidP you can use LaTeX in chat, see chatroom description
it makes posts more readable for other users
20:41
Cool - mod 11 works indeed. Thought I tried that before... Thank you so much!
@Sahaj Mathematicians keep on expanding new lengths of knowledge which gets studied over and over again. We are way past level of high school and it shouldn't come as a surprise
yes it is rather fascinating how vast mathematics is beyond just my school curriculum
@Sahaj Replace "mathematics" with literally anything you've studied, and it will remain true.
Hrm... I need to go into the office tomorrow to do my taxes. :/
Probably should have stayed later this afternoon.
But I'm so tired. :(
21:14
@leslietownes Yes, the $F_{20}$ is the group of affine transformation $x\to ax+b$ for $x\in\mathbb{Z}_5^{\times}$ and $b\in\mathbb{Z}$, sorry about the confusion. Thank you for the reference, I am reading it now.
 
1 hour later…
22:22
Why did I never hear of "skeleton" in the concept of linear algebra
oscar: if you don't care where the rep comes from, you can probably skip all of the stuff about waffles (which seem to be just some graphical trick for organizing some, not all, irreps of those groups) and swipe the formulas
@leslietownes But waffles are delicious!
@leslietownes Thanks, but the waffles seems not so difficult to understand in that context
Belgian?
oscar: might be worth considering whether there's some general thing where in <a,b: a^m, b^n, aba^{-1} = b^p> on C^m, where a goes to cyclic permutation of the coordinates and b goes to some diagonal matrix with powers of an nth root of unity along the diagonal [perhaps appropriately chosen] where you get a rep/irrep that way
or if this is somehow specific to one or more of the values of m, n, and p for F_20
22:27
@Jakobian i have never heard of such a thing outside of topology.
@TedShifrin If you take a basis $(v_1, ..., v_n)$ then skeleton of $v$ with respect to this is basis is the vector $(a_1, ..., a_n)^t$ such that $v = \sum a_iv_i$
Not standard terminology. This must be coming from robotics.
the author claims its often called this way
Often in a certain specialized applied corner.
does anyone know(/see) where it is used that $K$ is of char 0 or finite?
this is the proof (special case):
22:32
maybe, I'd be curious to hear opinions of people like that
char 0 of finite => field is perfect
I also know "skeleton" from category theory :)
so the zeros are all distinct
@Thorgott everyone does
oh hm
I guess the "repeated $[L:K[x]]$ times"
is where we want the distinctness
so it's just for that part of the statement
otherwise the proof goes through I think
22:35
@Jakobian Not everyone.
though I guess they could have written: "each one repeated $[L:K[x]]$ times the multiplicity of the root"
There are two legitimate contexts in which the word "skeleton" can be used: (1) biology class, and (2) Dungeons and Dragons. All other uses are an abomination.
I get a feeling the author just made the term up
@XanderHenderson CW complexes?
maybe it really is about category theory since the author just pulled a commutative diagram on me
actually that makes a lot of sense
22:44
@AlessandroCodenotti Those are the work of the devil.
GET BEHIND ME, SATAN!
Category of matrices is a skeleton of the category of vector spaces
@ShaVuklia you don't really need that, I think
just need to multiply with the inseparable degree in general
@Jakobian you write $\|x/n-re_1\|^2 = r_k^2/n^2-2rx_1/n + r^2$. The term $r_k^2/n^2$...is this the norm of $x$ squared? how do we know this?
And $x_1>0$ is positive because you rotated the whole shebang, right?
@psie yes it is
Oh okay I see your concern
you're making a good point, it should be $\|x\|^2/n^2$
22:56
right
@psie yeah, everything in $K$ except for $y = 0$ is in $\{z\in \mathbb{R}^m : z_1 > 0\}$
ok πŸ‘
23:10
now, what is the strategy to show that $K_n\cap S=\emptyset$?
23:51
@Thorgott can you maybe help me with this Lie algebra problem?
0
Q: How to find the Lie algebra of $G:=\{A\in GL_2(\Bbb{R}): A^tQA=Q\}$?

Summerday let $Q:=\begin{pmatrix}1&0\\0&-1\end{pmatrix}$ and $G:=\{A\in GL_2(\Bbb{R}): A^tQA=Q\}$. I want to find the Lie algebra of $G$. I know that by definition $Lie(G):=\{X: \exp(tX)\in G ~~\forall t\in \Bbb{R}\}$. And I also know that one has the characterization that $Lie(G)=T_I(G)$ which is the ta...


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