Mathematics - 2024-01-23 (page 1 of 2)

nickbros123

05:37

Is there a good beginner friendly probability book that is also moderately strong in developing theory? I am sick and tired of reading this statistics book, it makes me feel like a donkey, hardly any proper understanding, just lousy definitions and application, without much motivation either. I feel numb. I don't mind heavy handed analysis usage, I would rather struggle in that way than I am right now

I have taken a course on $\mathbb{R}$ till riemann integration, a course on Linear algebra (pretty computational though) and no knowledge of measures. If the book develops it as required that would be good

copper.hat

i have no good suggestions sorry. i have probability by Durrett, but it is not beginner friendly

nickbros123

08:23

@copper.hat no worries. i have borrowed a book called "a first look at rigorous probability" written by rosenthal. appears promising

Jakobian

10:11

Yeah you need something that develops Lebesgue integral

Khallil

11:00

@nickbros123 Maybe Capiński and Ekkehard Kopp's Measure, Integral and Probability?

(I remember reading a few chapters from it a few years ago and it felt like a good use of time)

I've also heard the Le Gall has a good book on those topics

*that

Jakobian

11:18

@Khallil do they cover Lebesgue integration or at least introduce it?

Khallil

11:35

Yes, both of them

(Would be very strange to encounter a book that purports to cover measure and probability without touching Lebesgue) :S

One does it in chapter 2 and the other in chapter 3

psie

12:30

@Jakobian I'm still struggling with this idea; if we equip the co-domain with the Lebesgue sigma-algebra, not every continuous function is measurable, right? As exemplified in the link above.

Jakobian

@psie the thing is that no one does that and its not what being measurable means

psie

I see

Jakobian

I'm repeating myself but so be it

Let $f:X\to \mathbb{R}^n$ be a function where $X$ is a measure space. Then we call $f$ measurable if its measurable with $\mathbb{R}^n$ equipped with Borel sigma-algebra

Lebesgue measurable function is a function $f:\mathbb{R}^n\to \mathbb{R}^m$ where domain is equipped with Lebesgue-measurable sets

Lebesgue measurable functions are often called measurable

psie

@Jakobian right, this would be a Borel measurable function I guess

Jakobian

Borel measurable means when domain is equipped with Borel sigma-field

@psie NO

Its MEASURABLE

Function

Adjectives like "Borel" or "Lebesgue" refer only to domain

If we mean something else we have to specify what sigma-algebras we are using

In particular there is no common name for Lebesgue measurable to Lebesgue measurable type of measurable functions

Soumik Mukherjee

12:39

Jakobian

When someone says "measurable", either they're dealing with abstractly chosen spaces with specified sigma-algebras, or equip codomain with Borel sigma-algebra

Soumik Mukherjee

Any hint on this?

psie

Ok, I see.

Jakobian

The type of measurable functions you link, they are the odd ones

psie

I'm using this definition:

Jakobian

12:41

The definition is correct

Khallil

There's a slightly more general definition

psie

great

Jakobian

The codomain is equipped with Borel sigma-algebra like it should be

Nothing I didn't say already

Khallil

(because you may be dealing with a function from a measurable space into another general measurable space that might not be $(\mathbb{R}^{n}, \mathcal{B}(\mathbb{R}^{n})$)

Measurable space

In mathematics, a measurable space or Borel space is a basic object in measure theory. It consists of a set and a σ-algebra, which defines the subsets that will be measured. == Definition == Consider a set X {\displaystyle X} and a σ-algebra F {\displaystyle {\mathcal {F}}} on X . {\displaystyle X.} Then the tuple ( X , F...

Interestingly, Wikipedia say the terms measurable space and Borel space are synonymous

(not personally a fan of that)

Xander Henderson

@copper.hat Statistics? or probability? Durrett is a probability text, isn't it?

Jakobian

12:47

@SoumikMukherjee Fubini or substitution

Xander Henderson

Though I guess the question is a bit unclear... he first asks for probability, then complains about the statistics text they are working out of.

I'm confused...

Jakobian

Do you recall the same formula from probability?

Xander Henderson

@nickbros123 Are you looking for a probability text? or a statistics text? What are you reading right now?

Jakobian

They are reading a statistics text that they find the text isn't formal enough

Its the kind of statistics text you'd read as an engineer probably

Nick is studying physics with intention of switching to mathematics

Xander Henderson

@Jakobian That's fine. I'll wait for them to answer the question, though.

I'm after a reference, not a general description.

Soumik Mukherjee

12:54

@Jakobian Sorry I am not getting it, can you tell what substitution to do here?

psie

thanks for clarifying this Jakobian, I finally grok it now I think :D It's a subtle definition...

Jakobian

@SoumikMukherjee $u = f(x)^p$

Something like that

you should get $\int pt^{p-1}P(X > t)dt$

well more or less. But its you that should be worrying about the details of the problem

here $f(x)$ being the density of $X$

Even if you can't directly apply substitution, I've already mentioned another way which works for sure, Fubini

Just write $f(x)$ as an integral of $y$

nickbros123

13:11

@XanderHenderson yeah, jakobian is right. im a phys student, but next semester ill switch to math. i am reading hogg, mckean, craig, introduction to statistics. My course, a statistics one, also follows the same book, but honestly, to read that book, and to succeed in that course, i find i have to remove my brain and become a machine. it all maps back to probability theory that i feel like im better off reading probability theory

Soumik Mukherjee

@Jakobian Yes I am getting $\int_0^\infty py^{p-1}\Sigma_f(y)dy$

Thank you

Xander Henderson

@nickbros123 So that text is a statistics text (and, in my opinion, a perfectly reasonable undergraduate text on the topic---it is what I used when first learning stats). It is not a probability text, and only includes enough probability at the start to get you going.

The other books that folk have recommended here are probability texts, which are much less relevant if you are trying to learn stats. And yes, you do kind of have to move your brain into a different space when learning and doing statistics. It is a different field from probability.

Though if you are getting hung up on the probability, either Durrett or Ross might be useful. I think I have slight preference for Ross at the beginner level (it doesn't really expect that you come into the text with much more than basic analysis, or possibly even calculus).

nickbros123

13:26

I will learn stats, sure, but it feels incomplete reading that book, and I get that sort of stomach ache feeling without the concreteness. moreover, i just feel like im reading definitions and assertions and doing problems without motivations or more exploration on a certain definition/assertion.

Xander Henderson

That's fair, I suppose, but I don't think that reading a probability text is likely to help.

They are different topics.

I don't have a better stats recommendation (I don't know stats at all, really). You might try asking in chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/18/ten-fold .

Jakobian

@XanderHenderson Yeah. Don't be afraid of statistics, learning probability won't help you with this

nickbros123

well, I think, and i could be wrong here, the fundamentals like random variables, pdfs, cdfs, expectation values and so on are the overlapping topics right

Xander Henderson

@nickbros123 Probability and statistics are connected, but they are not the same.

I think of statistics as being the study of "inverse" problems.

In probability, you have a given probability distribution, and ask questions like "what kind of data will this distribution produce?"

In statistics, you have a collection of data, and ask questions like "what underlying distribution produced these data? what are the parameters of that distribution?"

It is like the connection between differentiation and integration.

So, yes, it is helpful to have an understanding of probability when learning statistics, but the "probability mindset" isn't really the right place to be for statistics. And (thanks to the central limit theorem (or Donsker, if you want to think more generally)), everything is normal (ish).

Jakobian

I don't consider statistics to be mathematics anymore

nickbros123

13:36

@XanderHenderson I see. I havent gone deep into statistics, as in, im still reading on random variables, pdfs, cdfs, transformations on discrete and continuous RVs, expectations stuff.

Xander Henderson

@nickbros123 Like I said, the book that you are reading gives a very quick overview of basic probability, since you need to have some knowledge of this before diving into stats. But that isn't the goal of the book. It is meant to be a review.

So if those chapters are causing pain, it might not hurt to pick up Ross. But I think that you are going to be better off just getting through those sections, and then seeing how the rest of the book pans out for you.

nickbros123

@XanderHenderson maybe its only 1 chapter, the first one titled: probability and distributions. from there on it goes onto multivariate distributions and other special distributions

and yeah, ill pick up ross, thanks.

I do have the time this semester to do both if I dare to

Jakobian

Don't overdo picking up Ross because you're going to start learning formal probability and you won't be learning any statistics

at least from my experience, I know its probably a bad idea

Ryder Rude

13:52

what do u gain from learning philosophy?

philosophy of science, conciousness, morality, etc

Jakobian

My brother studies philosophy. He gained new delusions

I guess a better question is what can you gain

clearly its not good for everybody

Ryder Rude

maybe. it can make you go mad

Jakobian

I don't think it can

Someone who's brain changed in that way may be influenced by philosophy but its certainly not the root issue

Philosophy in itself is not much relevant (to someone getting mad)

Ryder Rude

oh. yeah... matters like someone getting mad are complicated. it's take a lot of causes

Xander Henderson

@RyderRude That seems like a good question for a philosopher, not a mathematician.

Ryder Rude

13:57

but anyway.. what is your view on philosophy?

Jakobian

my view on philosophy is very simple

If everyone were like me, no one would be studying philosophy

because I'm of opinion that everyone should form their own opinions via experience

rather than studying the old ideas, I'm of opinion that they're not worth studying

Ryder Rude

this can apply to philosophy of morality and rationality, for instance

Xander Henderson

You are asking the wrong room.

Ryder Rude

philosophy of science and consciousness is more like a matter of study

Jakobian

maybe he's just curious about mathematicians opinions

Ryder Rude

13:59

@XanderHenderson are non math topics not allowed?

Sine of the Time

yes

Xander Henderson

@RyderRude It isn't about what is allowed.

It is about getting a good answer.

Jakobian

whetever opinion on philosophy correlates somehow with mathematical knowledge, well thats another issue

Ryder Rude

oh. then i am asking here because i think you guys can give good answers too.

Jakobian

Of course we can. But we can also give stupid ones

Ryder Rude

14:00

there is also the philosophy of mathematics, which is about setting foundations for mathematics

this i think is a matter of study

@Jakobian i think everyone is capable of doing correct philosophy. philosophy is just a fancy name for organised thinking

Xander Henderson

@RyderRude Again, I would ask a philosopher about this before spout off.

Jakobian

There are various opinions on what philosophy is

Ryder Rude

this is why we say that many fields like science and math diverged from philosophy

Sahaj

hi

Ryder Rude

the subject is extremely general, yeah

Jakobian

14:02

in fact - what philosophy is, may be a question for philosophy

Ryder Rude

lol yeah

Jakobian

@Sahaj hello

Ryder Rude

okay what do you gain from studying math?

Secret

Integrals of the form
$$\int \frac{1}{f(x)+g(f(x))+g(x)}$$ remains difficult

Xander Henderson

@RyderRude Satisfaction.

Ryder Rude

14:03

great answer

Jakobian

@RyderRude knowledge and self-fulfillment

Sahaj

Pleasure

Ryder Rude

same

Xander Henderson

A better question might be "What is the point (goal) of studying mathematics?" Broadly and generally, what does humanity gain from it?

Ryder Rude

no, that would become a different question about the advacement of technology

Jakobian

14:05

I think what humanity gains and what does a mathematician gain are two totally different interests

Ryder Rude

yes. exactly. i wanted to ask the personal question

Xander Henderson

Personally, I work in areas which I hope have no applications---when mathematics gets applied to "real world" problems, the end result is typically a better tool for killing other people. So I don't think about that question in terms of technological advancement.

And the fact that you went there immediately kind of shows why this is a better question to ask.

Ryder Rude

what else could society gain from mathematics?

it must be the applications

Xander Henderson

What does society gain from poetry?

Ryder Rude

or is it "satisfication" for that too?

Jakobian

14:07

Society gains the means to further explore subjects different from mathematics

Ryder Rude

@XanderHenderson lol i thought you were going there. but note that not everyone enjoys poetry or art

Sahaj

Poetry is so worthless

Jakobian

They also gain the means to simplify and organize daily life

Xander Henderson

@RyderRude No. But would you deny that society benefits from the existence of art?

Ryder Rude

so the "satisfaction" gained by society comes down to the satisfaction gained by individuals, which my first question was about

Xander Henderson

14:08

@Sahaj You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Jakobian

The benefits of mathematics to society are much more practical

Ryder Rude

@XanderHenderson i dont see how people who dont enjoy that art would beneft

Jakobian

The comparison of mathematics to art works if you're a mathematician. But everyone can look at art. Can everyone look at mathematics?

Ryder Rude

i think "technology" might be a strong word. but like @Jakobian says, society gains useful knowledge from math

like addition is really important even if it cant be called technology @XanderHenderson

Jakobian

why addition, lets just look at statistics

copper.hat

14:10

@XanderHenderson definitely probability

Jakobian

@Sahaj LOL

Ryder Rude

aka lies :P

sorry damn lies

Sahaj

@XanderHenderson no but really, I fail to see how poetry and even literature are useful for human species and their development. Mathematics on the other hand is much more useful and practical for development of science and technology

Ryder Rude

Bayesian probability is a really important way of rationalising

but even this is an application of math

Thorgott

a significant portion of math is without application, simple as

Ryder Rude

14:12

so you can either gain satisfaction or applications

is there anything else

or you can gain both

Jakobian

@RyderRude Its not what I'm even talking about. Organizing data is important for many reasons. It doesn't even have to be for reasons of showing to the general populi

Xander Henderson

@Jakobian If done well? Yes. I think that good mathematics can be appreciated by nearly everyone. For example, consider the work of expositors like Steven Strogatz or Keith Devlin, who have both worked to explain mathematical ideas to the non-mathematical public (and been reasonably successful at it).

Jakobian

Agree to disagree

I'm not even going to attempt to argue this

Xander Henderson

I'm happy to disagree. But is it necessary to follow up with such a condescending comment?

Jakobian

whats your issue

Ryder Rude

14:16

ummm

do you guys have a rivalry?

Jakobian

no

Ryder Rude

oh

what other subjects do you find satisfying?

Jakobian

I'm just blunt and Xander doesn't handle that well

Xander Henderson

@Jakobian Again, is it really necessary to be so condescening?

Jakobian

In particular he likes to consistently misinterpret my comments

as some kind of attempts to be condescending

Xander Henderson

14:19

Dude, if you claim that other people are misinterpreting your comments, maybe the problem is you.

Jakobian

Only you

Ryder Rude

my interpretation is that your comment was dismissive of Xander's PoV, but not super insulting maybe

Sahaj

It wasn't insulting at all honestly

Jakobian

I've considered that point of view and merit of it but I decided to still disagree without arguing about it

Ryder Rude

yeah

"I'm not going to even attempt" can sound bad to the person as if you are saying that they are objectively wrong

but you also said agree to disagree

Jakobian

14:22

maybe I should have added all that type of fluff people add in their sentences to not make it seem like I'm trying to be insulting

Sine of the Time

"I'm not going to even attempt" that's what i say the day of the exams :)

Jakobian

@RyderRude other than mathematics?

None

Ryder Rude

oh

math itself is vast af

Thorgott

everyone can look at some mathematics and there's some good exposition

most people cannot look at research-level mathematics

including most other mathematicians not in that very specific area of research

Ryder Rude

i think there's so many interesting fields. i cant sort what knowledge to gain

Jakobian

14:29

ah I know. I like paleontology and history of human beings

Ryder Rude

i am liking physics, math, philosophy, evolution, history among others

einstein said the last person to be able to know it all lived in the 18th century or something

Jakobian

I'm now of opinion that whole religion of Christianity is misinterpretation of the Bible and Jesus' teachings

Ryder Rude

are you religious?

Jakobian

I'm an atheist

Ryder Rude

oh you just study the history

Khallil

14:32

I worship Grothendieck

I'm somewhat of a satanist myself

Jakobian

There's evidence in the Bible that Jesus was an apocalyptic Jew, and the apocalypse he was talking about were to happen soon after his death

Khallil

Ryder Rude

is this view well held among historians?

Sahaj

is there any data on average age groups on math stackexchange

Ryder Rude

i think there are a lot of mis-predicted apocalypses in history

Jakobian

14:34

@RyderRude Biblical historians, yes

Sahaj

almost everyone I see seems to be some PhD with years of experience

Thorgott

empirically speaking, that is not true

Jakobian

If you look at John the Baptist, the only thing he could possibly have in relation to Jesus was that he also was an apocalyptic Jew

Ryder Rude

oh

Jakobian

If you look closely in the bible, you will see that John the Baptist is talking about axe being in the tree already or something... he's referring to the apocalypse

Ryder Rude

14:38

is this the judgement day?

Jakobian

yes

should be that

Ryder Rude

this would mean that the prophecy was false... but religions keep getting re-interpreted whenever something is false

Jakobian

Well yes, I think Jesus gained influence (and was real), because of being an apocalyptic Jew, and then people kept on misinterpreting his teachings

Creating Christianity what it is today

Ryder Rude

yeah..the modern practice of religions should be unrecognisable from the original thing

lots of add-ons

Jakobian

preachers do learn this at the universities

they just don't preach about it

Ryder Rude

14:42

lol

religion is weird. evolutionary history is fascinating

Jakobian

For me its not about religion at all

Ryder Rude

religion is also very recent, at least the surviving ones

Jakobian

I'm interested in history of humanity

I'm an atheist, there's no reason for me to be interested in religion

Ryder Rude

yeh. religion plays a big role in society

and in shaping history

like the evolution of morality

Jakobian

Well it does baffle me that people interpret arguing about religion as an attack on it

especially any criticism of it

Ryder Rude

14:46

criticism is a mild form of attack tbf

but not an outright attack

Jakobian

That's only one meaning of what criticism is

Ryder Rude

theres also constructive criticism

Jakobian

I'm talking about criticism as in analysis of the Bible

Ryder Rude

oh

Jakobian

The usual argument is that you either believe or you don't

that's not arguable so the discussion usually ends at that, but it doesn't exhaust convincing arguments

Ryder Rude

14:49

analysis should be independent from belief

religion historians may not believe, and their neutral analysis may contradict the religious interpretations

this leads to tension between believers and neutral historians

Jakobian

Most of Biblical historians are protestants from what I heard

Ryder Rude

a historian isnt going to admit someone is divine. their analysis would be based on why a human thought they were divine

this leads to blasphemy :P

Jakobian

blasphemy is just another word to deter you from thinking about it

The main critics of the Bible are religious people

Soumik Mukherjee

Rare to see chat this much active at this time of the day

Ryder Rude

oh. thats unexpected

Jakobian

14:55

for me as an atheist it just confirmed my already existing opinion

Soumik Mukherjee

Were you always an atheist?

Ryder Rude

atheism is confused with anti theism these days

Jakobian

@SoumikMukherjee No but I was a kid so I didn't understand those things and religion is forced on you at that age

which is actually something I don't like

Soumik Mukherjee

True, most people become religious as it is forced on them from childhood

Jakobian

And they don't reflect on it at later stage

Ryder Rude

14:58

you said you dont do philosophy. but i gotta ask... are you a materalist or dualist (or something), regarding the universe? (or maybe you dont have an opinion)

Jakobian

I don't know what that means

Ryder Rude

oh

i will leave it then :P

Soumik Mukherjee

Hard to unlearn things that are rooted deep inside

Jakobian

I do like Christian traditions like Christmas, I wouldn't want to unlearn it

Its my tradition, not just a religious one

Soumik Mukherjee

Nothing wrong with festivals

Jakobian

15:01

not to mention they existed before Christianity came to Europe

they're pagan holidays, adapted by Christians

I think its a very good tradition

and I'm not talking about what Americans think Christmas is

a holiday for shopping at mals

Soumik Mukherjee

Kolkata Christmas Festival

Kolkata Christmas Festival, held every December in on Park Street, Kolkata, is one of the largest dedicated Christmas carnivals in India. The themed lighting starts from St Xavier's College and ends at Jawaharlal Nehru Road. This has been extended in recent years at both ends: up to the Mullick Bazar crossing on Park Street, and up to St Paul's Cathedral on Cathedral Road, an offshoot of Jawaharlal Nehru Road. Another offshoot of celebrations and lighting has been extended to Vardaan Market on Camac Street. This themed lighting is designed by artisans from the nearby town of Chandannagar. Bands...

I have never experienced actual Christmas though

Jakobian

Its about sitting near the table with your family, with food placed on the table and Christmas tree decorated in the room

that's what it boils down to

Soumik Mukherjee

ooh

Jakobian

presents and all, that's part of it too, but not what Christmas is about for me

its about family

and good food

Soumik Mukherjee

Nice

Jakobian

15:15

Yep. And the Christmas tree shines pretty in the corner of the room. Decorating it is also nice :D

Soumik Mukherjee

:)

Thomas Finley

16:37

@nickbros123 Can you provide me a little clarification? I don't get what you mean by $hubbard^2$ ?

@SoumikMukherjee Can you suggest me a good book on multivariate calculus for a beginner? I am starting on that topic. I am recently asking this question for a few days now, gathering various people's opinions.

Khallil

@ThomasFinley I believe it's Vector Calculus, Linear Algebra, and Differential Forms: A Unified Approach Textbook by Barbara Burke Hubbard and John H. Hubbard

(Hubbard and Hubbard)

Thorgott

yeah, it's just a funny way of referring to it

Thomas Finley

ah! My bad! Thanks! I know what that means now.

Ted Shifrin

Luckily, I am only Ted$^1$.

Xander Henderson

@Thorgott Funny, but common. I knew exactly what was going on. It is like "Baby Rudin". If you know, you're one of the cool kids.

Khallil

16:47

@TedShifrin I can pull some strings with a Tedd and Teddy...

Ted Shifrin

My book got written because I tried teaching out of Hubbard$^2$ the first year.

Khallil

Tough time teaching out of $d^2 = 0$

badumtssss

Ted Shifrin

You want a wedgie?

Soumik Mukherjee

@ThomasFinley The answer is obvious. Prof Shifrin's Book. You can work along with the youtube lecture series. As a bonus you can ask for clarifications from the author himself if needed.

Ted Shifrin

Obvious is not necessarily optimal.

Xander Henderson

16:59

@SoumikMukherjee I don't know about that. I've heard that the author is kind of a curmudgeon, and he eats undergraduates for breakfast.

AND he hands out wedgies to nerds.

Sine of the Time

does anyone have a pirated version? :D

Soumik Mukherjee

Yes here

Xander Henderson

@SoumikMukherjee That had better be a Rickroll. If not, I will be very dissappointed.

leslie townes

i heard the author gave so many Fs that his school put him on triple secret probation, and he wasn't even allowed to teach certain classes unless he was under video supervision, and wheeled into lectures in one of those hannibal lecter setups

Soumik Mukherjee

@XanderHenderson hehe

Xander Henderson

17:16

@TedShifrin Would you like some fava beans and a nice bottle of chianti?

nickbros123

@ThomasFinley yeah sorry about that, that wasn't really helpful 😅

nickbros123

17:27

@TedShifrin you're books really cool as well. For 2-3 months I was thinking (mulling on the back of my head) how to invert the Hilbert matrix, and due to a moment of serendipity from reading your book I came across the highly unobvious block matrix inversion which solved the issue

Ted Shifrin

@XanderHenderson Sure :)

Yeah, you told me that before, nickbros. That's in pretty much every linear algebra book.

nickbros123

@TedShifrin unfortunately not in Hoffman kunze :(

Ted Shifrin

That is a completely theory-oriented book.

nickbros123

In fact me and my friend joked on the way H&K ask that question in the very first chapter, it goes like: ".... Appears as if this matrix [the Hilbert matrix] is invertible. can you prove that?" And we concluded the right answer to that question is no xD

Ted Shifrin

I don't see that blocks help for that. And, besides, does the commutation hypothesis hold?

nickbros123

17:33

@TedShifrin in the induction proof it helps. It was just a lot of computation

And what do u mean by commutation hypothesis?

Ted Shifrin

You need $AC=CA$ or something similar.

Anyhow, there are nice conceptual ways of looking at that matrix so that invertibility is obvious. Brute force computation is not the way to go.

nickbros123

I don't remember the details of that computation really. And I agree, that wasn't really helpful in the grand scheme of things, but when I was reading the 1st chapter and encountered the problem, I noticed that each term was an integral of $x^n$ from $0$ to $1$, and I realised I have to wait until I learn inner products to take a jab at the problem again

Ted Shifrin

Yes, that's the right approach.

Just like you can use function spaces to see easily that the Vandermonde matrix is invertible.

Jaakko Seppälä

17:53

Consider the problem: "Use bisection search to optimize the problem
min for second degree polynomial f in given closed interval." Does that mean we find numerically solutions to f(x)=f(y)=a using bisection search and then return (x+y)/2 or is there an another approach?

Ted Shifrin

Seems like a stupid exercise. I would say to look for the root(s) of the derivative, but why are we doing this with a quadratic?

Successive bisection is a well-known method for finding roots of functions.

Jakobian

18:33

Ah... I love swatting flies with cannons

Ted Shifrin

A canon would be even better.

Jakobian

canon in what sense?

Xander Henderson

Johann Pachelbel - Canon in D Major

►

Ted Shifrin

A canonical canon, of course.

Xander Henderson

@TedShifrin Sounds like category theory... ew....

Jakobian

18:38

the vast majority of chatters here seem to be interested in some sort of analysis

leslie townes

frank cannon, as played by william conrad in "cannon" [a quinn martin production]

Xander Henderson

@leslietownes Dat's a gud one.

Jakobian

maybe its a generation thing, it seems to me like the younger generation is more interested in category theory

leslie townes

"use bisection to find---" uh, william conrad is here and he's going to pistol-whip you until you tell him where the minimum is

jakobian: i've never been sure if this is a real thing or just an appearance that is a byproduct of a criticial mass of CT people being very online

Jakobian

ah.. yeah that might be true

Ted Shifrin

18:44

I used to love Cannon (the TV show).

I hate the Pachebel Canon. It's almost as horrendous as Bolero.

leslie townes

jakobian: for example, and obviously my direct experience is way out of date, but i think of PDE as empirically a pretty large field, where a random math department is way more likely to have people conversant in PDE than they are in whatever the research frontier is in category theory, yet AFAIK there is no community of very online people doing PDE on the internet

Xander Henderson

@TedShifrin Aw... I love Bolero.

leslie townes

so if you're just online you might get the feeling that PDE is this tiny niche thing

Xander Henderson

But I can take or leave Pachebel's greatest (only?) hit.

Ted Shifrin

It is the most monotonous piece of music ever written, except for some of John Cage.

Jakobian

18:48

My department was full of probability people. But a lot of them probably did PDE's

Xander Henderson

@TedShifrin Yes... but! It moves from section to section of the orchestra in interesting ways, he plays with dynamics---it is a masterclass in what an orchestra can do.

Care can suck it.

leslie townes

ted: without bolero and pachelbel, what would people do ice dancing to

Xander Henderson

Also, Bolero was probably the result of a particular kind of dementia.

Ted Shifrin

Is ice dancing like ice fishing?

Xander Henderson

Cage is just... annoying.

leslie townes

18:49

jakobian: probability would be another example, without checking any data, i'd imagine that as way bigger than CT from the point of view of the number of people who actually do it

ted: it's less interesting to watch

Ted Shifrin

Do they dip into the holes in the ice?

Jakobian

Is it "have shown" or "have showed"

Xander Henderson

"have shown".

Jakobian

thank you

leslie townes

ted: they might. i just meant that i think of canon in d etc. as music that only exists so that people can figure skate to it during the most boring parts of the olympics. maybe they also let you listen to it before they turn you into soylent green

Xander Henderson

19:04

@leslietownes You've forgotten how often it shows up at weddings.

leslie townes

sometimes people who get really snotty about pachelbel will turn and be like "vivaldi is so underappreciated" and i feel like you have to choose one or the other about all of those guys

Xander Henderson

@leslietownes Yes. You can't like both Vivaldi and Pachebel. It is the law.

leslie townes

i meant something else, that you have to concede that there are deep virtues within all of the purveyors of cheese, or reject all of them. you can't have one be "the good one"

Xander Henderson

@leslietownes Well, you're wrong. You have a choice. Vivaldi, or Pachebel. Choose.

CHOOSE NOW!

leslie townes

ted got really silent, he must be listening to the four seasons right now

Xander Henderson

19:10

I'm listening to Holst right now.

Ted Shifrin

None of this is my proverbial cup of tea.

leslie townes

as long as nobody is snobby about cannon the tv show, i'm happy

Ted Shifrin

Well, my favorite detective of all is Nero Wolfe, since he was a gourmet snob and had a gourmet Swiss chef.

Xander Henderson

Nick and Nora, all the way. :D

Ted Shifrin

Cannon was a bit of a foodie, as I recall.

Xander Henderson

19:17

It just isn't breakfast until you've had your third martini.

Ted Shifrin

He wasn't quite as heavy as Nero Wolfe (somewhere in 400-500 pounds, I think).

Is this the third martini to teach on?

Xander Henderson

@TedShifrin No, it helps you find the murderer, I think.

Ted Shifrin

Well, Jim Rockford always had the obligatory car chases around Malibu.

Xander Henderson

@TedShifrin And an answering machine.

Ted Shifrin

Indeed.

Xander Henderson

19:21

Man, that was a good show.

Ted Shifrin

He was the antithesis of a foodie, though.

Xander Henderson

No doubt.

Transcript for

$Mathematics$ Mathematics