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00:00
well both constant
and both $E_i$ and $X-E_i$ are in $E$
measurable cardinals show up a lot
@leslietownes also, in addition to above, what would be an example where a function looks like it should be measurable but isn't?
$\{0,1,2,3,i,2i,1+i, 2+i, 3+i, 1+2i, 2+2i, -1+i, -1+2i\} + (3+2i)$, is this an exhaustive list of (distinct?) elements of the gaussian integers quotient ring $\mathbb Z[i]/(3+2i)$?
we have 13 elements because of isomorphism with $\mathbb Z/(13)$
00:37
macaulay2 shall answer me
00:49
had to install an ubuntu virtual computer this better work
monoidal: there basically aren't any, as above ("the background vibe is that any construction remotely like this with measurable sets as ingredients will be measurable"). one of the vibes of basic measure theory is that you don't escape the world of measurable stuff with piecewise constructions, countable sums, and limit operations.
monoidal: but there's no useful way of formulating that theorem outside of some pretty exotic stuff (e.g. models of set theory or logic where everything is measruable), or a long series of extremely routine verifications that things are, indeed, measurable.
01:13
@leslietownes I'd like to bring a legal matter which affects all Stack Exchange to your attention. I'm not asking you for professional legal advice, but perhaps you can shed some light on this matter as someone who understands legalese and copyright law. ;)
Recently, the Stack Exchange CEO expressed a desire to get financial compensation for the SE data used to train ChatGPT & other LLMs. From stackoverflow.blog/2023/05/31/…
> LLMs are trained off Stack Overflow data, which our massive community has contributed to for nearly 15 years. We should be compensated for that data so we can continue to invest back in our community.
Now, it doesn't seem right that SE can sell our data & waive our Creative Commons right for proper attribution in exchange for cash. However, some members claim that our contributions are dual licensed, see meta.stackexchange.com/q/388760 & opensource.stackexchange.com/q/5663 Personally, I think that's baloney.
The issue was brought to a head when it was discovered a few days ago that SE Inc had silently cancelled the regular data dumps a few months ago, see meta.stackexchange.com/questions/389922/…
So, I'd like to know if the dual license thing is BS. It would be fantastic if someone like yourself could clarify these issues. But I also understand if you'd rather not comment.
01:44
it works
macaulay2 works for these things
02:00
complex numbers don't work with rings so you have to know the gaussian integers are isomorphic to z[x]/(x^2+1) and then you can do whatever
@shintuku FWIW, you can run macaulay2 code in SageMathCell sagecell.sagemath.org I don't know macaulay2, so I've never tried it myself.
yeah i discovered that after doing the full installation on a virtual machine on my computer lol
Oh well. But at least you can use SageMathCell to easily share macaulay2 stuff here.
OTOH, it would be running inside Sage. That can sometimes create subtle execution differences, but it's usually not a problem.
has worked fine so far!
been testing out the sagemathcell
Cool. Of course, Sage itself has extensive support for fields. doc.sagemath.org/html/en/reference/number_fields/sage/rings/… OTOH, the docs are a bit of a rabbit warren...
I haven't used that stuff much, just a few simple quadratic fields, and Galois fields.
02:12
am just verifying my answer but it's cool this seems like it can work for a lot of other stuff
notably ideal verification
bruteforcing the elements of $\mathbb Z[i]/(3+2i)$, who needs to know ring theory anymore
that's a joke, but cool solution verification tool
03:03
@shintuku When using SageMathCell on a phone, the windows may be a bit narrow. Here's a bookmarklet that lets you adjust the width: javascript:(()=>{let%20w=prompt('Width?','130%');if(w)jQuery('.sagecell').css('width',w);})()
neat thank you!
No worries
03:22
Speaking of quadratic fields, a few days ago there was a discussion about $a+b\sqrt2$ being dense, with $a,b$ integers. It got me thinking about algorithms for finding such integer pairs so that $a+b\sqrt2\approx x$ for a given real $x$. I wrote Sage code that uses the continued fraction of $\sqrt2$ in a greedy algorithm to approach $x$, but I'm wondering if there's a better / more efficient algorithm. Here's one example I found: $\pi\approx 70113791\sqrt2 - 99155871$
 
1 hour later…
04:31
@PM2Ring i don't think there is a clear answer. haven't read details but it looks like some version of the terms say both "you agree that A" and "you agree that B", where A explicitly imposes attribution obligations on SE when certain things happen, while B does not. even if this did create a 'dual license' (far from clear), there'd be a question of what SE is free to do if the obligations imposed are inconsistent with one another (also far from clear).
"far from clear" meaning a court could come out differentlyon the issue. forum dependence always exists with TOS type "agreements", and it only gets worse when terms are ambiguous or even contradictory. the result may turn on what a forum allows (e.g. what evidence is citable, who has which burdens of proof). SE has many arguments but are probably also kicking themselves. if this were litigated in 100 forums, they would not have a 100% win rate, maybe not even a 50% win rate.
US-specific detail: if a bad guy breaches the terms of a copyright license, under some circumstances you can only sue in the US for breach of contract, not copyright infringement. litigants often want to sue under US copyright because the remedies are often better, but sometimes this isn't available (and "licensee agrees to provide attribution, then doesn't" is generally one of those times). a lot of internet lawyering ignores this or is unaware of it (maybe because this issue is US-specific)
ted: hey math guy, say some math
Just back from a delicious dinner with wonderful wine, so …. Phbbhhhht.
05:24
french stuff?
@leslietownes Thanks. I really appreciate it. The relevant sections in the TOS have changed slightly over the years, but SE Inc have never responded on the meta site(s) with a clear statement on this dual license stuff. :(
one or more attorneys is probably telling them not to do that. :D
:D Understandable.
I guess it's even more complicated, from a legal POV, because (AFAIK) the courts haven't decided on the copyright issues surrounding LLM training. Do we class the trained net as a lossy compressed copy of the training data? Or is the trained net like a human reader, who may coincidentally repeat material that it's read...
05:42
yeah, it's not an easy fit for copyright as it has developed in most countries.
"databases" broadly speaking (e.g. compilations of information that might be collected from a range of sources) presented, and still present, similar difficulties. a lot of the doctrines around copyright generally don't fit it very well, so you get these patchworks of protections, some via copyright, some not.
it doesn't help that some of the stuff that LLMs put a focus on (e.g. rights of attribution, e.g. controls that 'stick' to the author of something and maybe their descendants but nobody else) already presents pretty broad points of disagreement among 'big' IP regimes even in the cases of like paintings and plays and stuff.
wait, how will the uspto be able to distinguish usual patent applications from chatgpg generated ones...
copper: eh, the AI examiner will flag it. with some probability.
ai could be the ultimate leveler
i'm only slightly serious
even pre-chatgpt there were some off the shelf "AI-lite" computer assistants for generating patent applications. ticking at least some of the boxes of the US requirements is fairly robotic, and it's not unreasonable to ask a computer to give a first draft of something (assuming that the starting input is what we would recognize as something patentable, and not an AI hallucination)
adds a new dimension to lorem ipsum
05:54
Toby Hendy is a Science / Maths YouTuber from New Zealand. Lately, she's been doing lots of short clips on higher dimensional geometry. Eg,
a kiwi pippi longstocking
oh gosh, i didn't realise she was speaking english
:)
Her accent is pretty mild. Some of the South Island accents can be really hard to understand.
I hope she does the "Never peel a 1000D apple" theorem.
i'm just joshing, here's a west cork accent youtube.com/watch?v=LmgaSvu5Z14
not to entirely non pc, but with a few minor cosmetic changes she could probably 1000x her views
06:03
I was having trouble with a weird piece of thought. Are the two statements "A set $K\subset \Bbb R$ is compact in $\Bbb R$ if for every sequence in $K$, their exists a convergent subsequence in K, that converges to a point in $K$." and "A set $K\subset \Bbb R$ is compact in $\Bbb R$ iff for every sequence in $K$, their exists a convergent subsequence in K, that converges to a point in $K$." ---same ?
what the f ?
I think, if the former statement is taken as a definition, then the two statements are equivalent?
Am I correct?
it depends on context, but definitions are written that way
@copper.hat Ok, that's pretty hard to follow, even though I have some Irish (& Scottish) ancestry.
@copper.hat Yes, so that means say, if the former statement is a definition, then the later statement is what the former statement has established?
06:06
when was dealing with us berkeley administration in my first week in the usa, i had to repeat myself 5x times on a regular basis. very frustrating
@ThomasFinley i suppose when its a definition it is more of a linguistic equivalence where as in a tautology it is a logical equivalence if you see what i mean
@ThomasFinley Yes.
@copper.hat Perhaps, but maybe she wouldn't be comfortable doing that.
@SouravGhosh Thanks, and I think: if the former statement is taken as a definition, then the two statements are equivalent. Am I correct in my understanding of the scenario ?
@PM2Ring and on a different indistinguishable note there's youtube.com/watch?v=vdkd6wgbzhI
@PM2Ring i'm just being a boor
saoirse is a pretty good actress i think. it took me a while to realise she was the actress in hanna on netflix
gotta stop sharing my netflix with my distributed family
@ThomasFinley yes. that used to bug me too.
@copper.hat Danica McKellar says there's no conflict between being a mathematician & being sexy. But you need the right personality to carry it off successfully.
06:13
@copper.hat Pardon me, but till now, I have no idea what a "linguistic equivalence " or a "tautology" is . But this is the reasoning, I came up with i.e: if the former statement is taken as a definition, then the two statements are equivalent.
And I want to know, whether my reasoning is correct or not?
@ThomasFinley yes. what i mean by linguistic equivalence is that the definition is just a shorthand for the rhs. a logical equivalence is where you prove that the lhs implies the rhs and vica versa
@copper.hat Ah! Now, that makes things surely simpler. At this stage, it's ok, if I stick to my reasoning. What do you think?
@copper.hat was this intended for me ?
06:18
(This is because, it seemed confusing, as you are having as conversation with "PM":Pardon me)
@copper.hat haha, ok ! Thanks for your clarifications!
@ThomasFinley ambiguity is the source of all great conversations
to quote AE Housman "Perfect understanding will sometimes almost extinguish pleasure."
@copper.hat Hmm, that might be true, but please dont create further suspense, it gets frustrating sometimes. (Like in this case, it was for me). But the last "yes" in your comment, was truly intended towards me, right ????
@PM2Ring i didn't mean to imply all the way over to sexy, more less granola
@ThomasFinley yes, the yes was for you
@copper.hat Perfect!
@ThomasFinley be aware that there is a lot of ambiguity in mathematical writing which is disambiguated by context and culture
it helps to have a friend with whom you can discuss these things
06:25
@copper.hat So true.
An Australian lass with Irish & Scottish heritage:
not sure why, but i keep getting youtube ads for concealed carry devices. i am not gun adverse, but don't posess any.
That's a bit disturbing...
Here's some Welsh folk-rock from 9Bach, featuring Lisa Jên on lead vocals.
given $e_1,e_2$ are integers, one can show that $e_1^4 + 2e_2^2 = e_1^2 -2e_2$ holds $\mod 4$, is there a situation when this holds in more general rings of algebraic integers? Say we take $\mathbb{Z}[D] \subset \mathbb{Q}(d)$, where $D = \sqrt{d}$ if $D = 2,3 \mod 4$ and $D = \frac{1 + \sqrt{d}}{2}$ if $d = 1$ $\mod 4$. I would guess we can only expect it to hold if $2$ is prime in $\mathbb{Z}[D]$
does anyone know if there are concrete cases of $D$ for which this holds?
06:44
@PM2Ring my personal fave from contemporary irish voices would be sinead o'connor. sad creature, but does she have a voice and knows how to use it.
Nothing compares to Sinead. But she has had a troubled life.
true. she is very irish in a way i cannot explain
appearance, movement, her eyes, voice, attitude
One of my favourite British singers from last century is the late great Sandy Denny.
that's a tough one, too many possibilities :-)
Sandy wrote or arranged a lot of good songs, but Who Knows Where The Time Goes is generally considered to be her greatest, written when she was only 18.
Joyce is too much for me. But I managed to listen to almost 3 minutes of that. ;)
never got the post Ulysses joyce
his stories before that were good
Here's a traditional ballad in folk-rock style from Sandy & the lads. Matty Groves.
Ulysses is ok, I guess. Finnegan's Wake is just too deranged...
07:38
some people add "comments welcome" to the comment part of their arxiv submissions, does this actually make a difference?
nah but its nice
It's like 'thanks in advance' in MSE
yeah, i would assume it is implied even if it's not stated and expect most people don't even notice it.
if there's some reason you don't want comments (e.g. the paper is already published and is being put on the arxiv for some archival reason, e.g. because a more recent paper refers to it) it might be helpful to add that.
relatedly, while many people often forget to add publication data when it becomes available (maybe some don't know that it's possible to do this), it's really helpful to do that.
@leslietownes imagine: "NO COMMENTS, SOLICITATIONS, OR OTHER PESTS"
thanks in reverse
07:52
@s.harp trying to remember my arxiv credentials so i can go back and add this.
@leslietownes why is it helpful
cant you basically ctrl c ctrl v the title of the paper in a search engine to see if its published
of course you can. but if the person has submitted the DOI already, you can also just click.
and sometimes the web is littered with a plurality of junky versions, which makes searching for the 'right' published version more than just title + search + click.
fair
i feel like its more important for the authors, especially if they're not tenured, to rub it in that something is published :P
perhaps. i just remember encountering a lot of preprints via google because the arxiv is pretty well indexed, and sometimes journal sites are not (e.g. paywalls might prevent indexing of material that appears in a paper's contents but not its title). and often having that moment of "i wonder if this is the most recent version of this, or just the last version they happened to put on the arxiv."
and making me go back to google to find that out is cruel.
there shoudl also i guess be some way of more explicitly flagging "by the way, in fact, i never published this, this really is the last of it." i don't know how to do that in arxiv metadata.
Is there sometimes a minor (mathematical) typo in a published paper? My college told me once that he found a published paper in applied mathematics that contains some minor typos (but not serious).
08:01
@onepotatotwopotato all the time
one: yes, all the time. same rate as normal typos.
@onepotatotwopotato Of course. Sometimes they're also major :P
People peer review before they publish
Oh, I didn't know that
peer reviewing for minor typos is difficult because if you "know" what they're saying, you mentally correct for it and don't notice. same as regular language typos.
referees don't literally plug the paper in a proof-checker and machine-verify it
08:04
sometimes the publisher introduces their own typos... they just ruined the bibliography of paper (and I didnt think to proofread their version of the bibliography.. because come on..), eg "HF Münzner" is cited as "FM Hans", papers with two authors are reduced to one and taht guy just got his first name put into his last name ....
@BalarkaSen If it's a major typo, then referees retract that publication?
typos, smaller errors, etc are bound to be present
outside of math and other fields where the math might be a real focus of attention, you could expect the typo rate in equations to be significantly higher than the typo rate in other stuff, because reviewers are likely not bothering to check equations at all.
major typo is still typo
if the whole paper is wrong people eventually would figure out and the authors would retract
08:05
if the authors are honest and a proposition is incorrect (not just a typo) then they will issue an erratum or retract the paper (if the nothing can be saved)
as one example, in some technical fields people might put equations in submissions to the patent office. those are virtually never checked and often are not even typeset correctly, even if the initial submission was.
but mathematics doesnt usually function in a way that a small error somewhere gives rise to a major flaw. happens in differential geometry because everything they do is a computation
but more often than not if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and enough people think it is a duck, its a duck (replace duck by "a valid paper/result/theorem")
huh?
@XanderHenderson Actually I think I'll be interested in this text, regardless of Hausdorff dimension or whatever.
08:36
In the Kolmogorov consistency theorem when can we say that the extension is unique?
Yes, @PNDas
??
I need to choose either TDA or Probability class next semester. Hmm
Any extension agrees on the cylinder sets by the consistency conditions
If you have two measures which agree on the cylinder sets, they agree everywhere. This is one of the standard "good set principles".
bookdown.org/jkang37/stochastic-process-lecture-notes/… It seems we need sample path to be right continuous.
08:43
There is no such thing as "sample paths" in Kolomogorov consistency theorem. It's a general theorem about measures on product $\sigma$-algebras.
You may deduce corollaries about continuous stochastic processes from it.
@BalarkaSen I also thought the same thing but I don't understand what is written in that notes.
Okay I understand now.
Thanks
I was writing without thinking properly.
@PNDas I disagree with their statement of Theorem 1.1. As in, it is correct, but I do not think you need right-continuity.
The extension is unique without any apriori hypothesis.
Have you studied TDA before Balarka?
Topological data analysis? I know of it, have not studied it.
08:56
now we wait a decade or so to see if anyone can figure out whether he's right :)
At first glance it seems elementary but pretty dense, if it weren’t for the author being who he is the crackpot alarm would be going off
yes, and it certainly doesn't help that for some people the crackpot alarm was also going off in the 70s.
What do you mean?
enflo's original work on the invariant subspace problem was notoriously hard to understand and for a long time people weren't sure if he had produced an example.
Didn’t know that xD, I certainly didn’t read his paper
09:00
oh, yeah, well i'm not sure how widely it is known. the wikipedia page is understandably very neutral about it.
at least one other person, not as prominent as enflo, suggested for a while that his example (published in the 1980s) was the first example, i.e. implied that enflo had not gotten there.
i am not naming names because i do not know how long or how adamantly he continued to do that.
Interesting, I might try to find and read Yadav, B. S. (2005), "The present state and heritages of the invariant subspace problem" later today
Which was the wiki reference
anyway, it's maybe more than a few parallels here with louis de branges, who was famous for solving the bieberbach conjecture (although when he announced his proof of that, many did not believe it, and it maybe took the work of others for people to be convinced), who in extremely advanced age repeatedly claimed to have solved the riemann hypothesis, or some modified version of it.
i.e. "very wild claim, but coming from someone who not only previously made a wild claim, but was actually right, even if it took a while for everyone to figure that out"
anyway, when i first heard of enflo's preprint i thought "i wonder if the proof involves some extremely complicated constructions by induction" and surprise! it does.
but that is not reason to count it out. if i were still in academia i might spend time trying to figure it out, haha
@leslietownes I am sorry. I don't understand. Why would it take a decade? Isn't the paper just 13 pages long. I mean I guess it'll just take probably a week to verify the paper. Do you mean it uses some advanced technique?
@leslietownes what if it has no DOI
jakob: i think the arxiv metadata allows for something just like "Other URL" as indeed many published papers do not have doi's.
@PNDas it looks elementary but extremely complicated to me. and you absolutely can put a whole lot of difficult work into 13 pages, if you skip verifying technical details (or are so deep into your own personal view of something that you don't notice how others would need to see a verification).
i spent some time with one of the de branges RH proofs and it was very slow going even though i was familiar with a lot of his toolkit. i didn't find any fatal errors, but he used a lot of language in nonstandard ways and it took a ton of effort just to figure out what he was saying. then he came out with an "updated version" of it and i thought, oh, f--- this.
09:13
I've been searching for paper, hard to find on google scholar, no DOI, I finally found it on researchgate but it's hidden behind a paywall. Nothing on illegal sites either. I have to reinvent the wheel at this point
„See the (as of yet unpublished) clarifying works by other authors for a proof (I’m sure they’ll work it out)“
At least I found the example in another paper, but with no proofs
@PNDas "a decade" was also a joking but very specific reference to enflo's earlier work, where approximately a decade elapsed between his announcement/sketch of a result and its publication in final form. he did spend at least some of that decade trying to make it simpler and explain it to other people and it still took that long.
I did that yesterday but had an error. But thankfully I solved part of it thinking about it in my bed
@Jakobian Some papers are cited all the time but are impossible to get your hands on, you might have to make a request to your librarian who will somehow magic a physical copy of the journal it was published in into existence
09:17
@Jakobian when you get a copy of this paper it is your duty to scan it and free it into the cosmos.
I will probably start my venture in this research world next year.
I might post it here when I finally figure it out I guess
Question & answer style
change the PDF file name to [popular song title and artist name] dot mp3 and go on napster with it.
09:39
There was a question which asked:"Justify whether the set of rational numbers satisfy
Cantor's nested interval property ?" . I know, that Cantor's nested interval property does not hold for rational numbers. But my answer will be: "While proving, Cantor's nested intervals property for real nos, we essentially used Axiom of Completeness(AoC), but AoC is never valid for the set of rational numbers, so we can't really prove Cantors Nested Property for rationals." But I feel that my answer if not wrong, is incomplete. This is because, maybe AoC can't be utilised to prove Cantor's Nested Interva
But this is where the problem comes in. My idea for finding a counterexample was to show that there exists a Nested Sequence of closed intervals that has $\sqrt 2$ as the element of its intersection. But $\sqrt 2$ is not in Q, a contradiction. But I failed to produce any such examples of a nested sequence of closed intervals. I need some help in here...
@ThomasFinley that's right
@Jakobian Thanks!
@ThomasFinley $[\frac{\lfloor \sqrt{2}n\rfloor}{n}, \frac{\lfloor \sqrt{2}n\rfloor+1}{n}]$
if you want something explicit see above, I'd just say there exist rationals $p_n$ and $q_n$ with $p_n < \sqrt{2} < q_n$ and $\lim p_n = \lim q_n = \sqrt{2}$
10:02
Say for contradiction we assume that the NIP is valid in Q. Also, we know that there exists an increasing sequence , $p_n$ which converges to $\sqrt 2$ (for eg: 1,1.4,1.414,1.4142,... is a sequence which is increasing and converges to $\sqrt 2$ ) and there exists a sequence $q_n$ converging to $\sqrt 2$ and is decreasing (for eg:2,1.456,...,1,1.4,1.414,1.4142,...). Now, we construct intervals, as $I_1=[p_1,q_1], I_2=[p_2,q_2],I_3=[p_3,q_3]$ and so on, then,
we note that $....\subset I_4\subset I_3\subset I_2\subset I_1$ is a nested sequence of closed intervals, with $\bigcap I_n=\sqrt 2\notin \Bbb Q$ and so, $\bigcap I_n$ is empty in $\Bbb Q,$ a contradiction. This, proves, NIP doesn't necessarily hold in $\Bbb Q.$- Can this be considered a perfect answer to the question I mentioned, @Jakobian ?
@Jakobian This idea was inspired from this comment of urs..
10:38
I believe one part of problem solving is being able to verify your own solutions
10:57
@Jakobian That's the point of problem solving. But to be specific, my concern is, that I asserted that $\exists $ a montonically decreasing sequence convergent to $\sqrt 2$ by intution, however, I found no such examples of this scenario, taking into account that the example I wrote in my 2nd last comment, is erroneous.
@Jakobian In fact, you asserted the same. Is it enough to assert it just because this seems pretty obvious, or one has to prove this rigorously ?
What do you suggest ?
I gave you an example of such sequence too
no one proves things per "obvious"
most people already encountered how to obtain such sequence/seen a proof and verified it/assumed it's true
for anyone experienced it'll be just a fact you can use
if you never seen such fact and you want to convince yourself it's true, you can prove that $\frac{\lfloor \sqrt{2}n\rfloor + 1}{n}$ is such sequence of rational numbers
obvious just means "yeah it's true, boring, let's move on"
pretty much
or "yeah it's true I've seen it before, I don't have to verify it"
when you learn math, you probably will want to assume a lot because there's only so much a human brain can handle in a short time
11:22
do you know that there is a theorem or proposition in Dummit Foote textbook which is in fact false but its proof says 'obvious'?
I never read that book, and I don't intend to
people make mistakes though
11:37
Obvious and wrong are not necessarily exclusive, but this is not obvious.
The principal branch is $z \mapsto e^{{1 \over 2} Log (1-z)}$, defined on $\mathbb{C} \setminus [1,\infty)$. Note the change in the real axis part of the definition. — copper.hat Feb 3, 2019 at 4:01
@copper.hat: Am I right in saying that $\arg(1-z)$ in the case of the principal branch is in $(-\pi, \pi)$?
11:52
@Jakobian this was the thing, I wanted to say, in a roundabout way. The thing that went on my mind is:"Ok, such a monotonically decreasing convergent sequence converging to $\sqrt 2$ seems to exist obviously. C'mon, just look at the number line, where there is $\sqrt 2$, it will be 100% possible to find such a sequence. Now, let's use this fact such a monotonically decreasing seqn converging to $\sqrt 2$ exists to prove the real thing, i.e NIP is not necessarily, valid in Q."
I was precisely, asking: Under these thought processes in my mind, should I move on just like that, without proving that such a monotonically decreasing sequence converging to $\sqrt 2$ exists or should I try to prove it ?(considering that: I am fully convinced about the existence of such a sequence)
12:05
I'd say it's a matter of opinion
either of your opinion if you're doing it for yourself, or your teachers opinion
12:21
@Jakobian what's your opinion , then ? (If you consider sharing it with me, which will be indeed, much helpful for me. )
I found out a popular question on real analysis is this:" Let $X$ be any set. Then show that Card X < Card P(X)". But isn't this the thing, Cantor's Theorem implies ? For my version of Cantor’s Theorem is: "Given any set A, there does not exist a function f : A → P(A) that is onto. " Doesn't this directly imply that Card A< Card P(A), considering the fact that there exists an injective mapping between them. So, will writing the proof of Cantor's Theorem suffice as an answer to this question?
12:43
Does anyone know how to prove that the set of all functions $\mathbb{Z}^{+} \rightarrow \{ 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 \} $ is uncountable?
12:58
@ThomasFinley this is Cantor's theorem
|X| < |2^X|
@l0ner9 $|\{0, 1, 2, 3, ..., 9\}^{\mathbb{Z}^+}| = |\{0, 1, ...,9\}|^{|\mathbb{Z}^+|} = 10^{\aleph_0} = 2^{\aleph_0} = \mathfrak{c} > \aleph_0$
the first equality is basically by definition
The third follows from $\lambda^\kappa = 2^\kappa$ for $2\leq \lambda \leq 2^\kappa$ and $\kappa\geq \aleph_0$, which you can show like $2^\kappa\leq \lambda^\kappa \leq (2^\kappa)^\kappa = 2^{\kappa^2} = 2^\kappa$
and the fourth one is definition
the inequality follows from Cantor's theorem
@ThomasFinley Show that if $a_i$ is a monotonically increasing sequence converging on $\sqrt2$ then $2/a_i$ is a monotonically decreasing sequence converging on $\sqrt2$.
Hi all, i'm planning on writing a paper regarding the Fukushima nuclear incident. More specifically, I am looking at how long it takes for the nuclides to decay such that it becomes safe for humans to be around.
This is my plan so far
However, one problem with this is that it lacks complexity.
Does anyone have any suggestions of higher level math I could use?
@ThomasFinley my opinion, with the amount of information I currently have about you, is null
it just depends on different factors
13:13
@Ajay This topic may be more suitable for the Physics chat room chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/71/the-h-bar But consider what happens when a radioisotope doesn't directly decay into a stable isotope but instead decays into another radioisotope.
I don't mean this specific case but approach you should have in general, should you try to verify things or maybe not, how should I know if it's even important for you to verify those things, maybe you just got an assignment from your class and it won't be anyhow relevant in your future to be diligent and check all of those
@PM2Ring It's not so much about the radioactivity part. It's more about the probability distributions and models. I'm looking for something more advanced. I'm doing a math research paper.
@Jakobian hmm...I understand
you should probably do what your teacher tells you to do, unless you want to verify everything I guess, and even if you want to become a mathematician, verifying everything is not always a good thing either I guess, and should probably be more like verify some things, assume others
it boils down to how important is it to you, how important is it for your teachers etc.
and I just don't know
@Jakobian This is what I needed to know. I will consider moving on then, as my final decision by assuming this holds true.
13:17
I've been stuck on this problem for a while.
> Consider $\mathbb{R}^2$ with the Euclidean norm (or any other $\ell^p$-norm). If $f:\mathbb{R}\to\mathbb{R}$ is continuous, then $$A=\{(x_1,x_2)\in \mathbb{R}^2 : x_2<f(x_1)\}$$ is open in $\mathbb{R}^2$.
Any hints on how to approach showing this? I need to show that for every $x\in A$ there is some $r>0$ such that the open ball $B_r(x)$ is contained in $A$, but I just do not know where to start.
Consider the function $g(x_1, x_2) = f(x_1)-x_2$ and notice that $A = g^{-1}[(0, \infty)]$
@sunny You could consider for a fixed $x$ the set $A(x):= \{(t,x)\in \mathbb R^2: x<f(t)\}$. $\bigcup_x A(x)= A$. If you show $A(x)$ to be open for every x then arbitrary union of open sets is open.
Thanks for the hints.
@Ajay Sure. Calculating the proportions of all the members of a decay chain is harder than calculating the proportions of something that decays directly to a stable isotope. Especially if the isotope can decay in multiple ways.
@Koro do you mean fixed $t$ instead of $x$?
13:25
no, I mean x.
ok
@PM2Ring Could you elaborate more on your point?
Also, as a rule of thumb, activity is roughly inversely proportional to half-life, so nuclides that have a short half tend to emit more energetic particles. So if an isotope with a long half-life has isotopes in its decay chain with a shorter half life, then that stuff can become more radioactive over time. You may like to calculate that activity. However, finding the energies of the emitted particles can be a little harder than finding half-lives, which you can just get from Wikipedia.
What kind of mathematics can I use to calculate that activity?
@Ajay Eg, if you start with 100 g of radium-226 (halflife ~1600 years), what will you have 100 years later? Maybe take a look at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decay_chain
13:35
Show that $(a, b]$ and $[c, d)$ have the same cardinality, where $a, b, c,d$ are real numbers and $a <b, c<d.$ This is a well-known classical question in real analysis, if I am not wrong. The thing is, these problems are new to me. I could prove that any two closed intervals in R have the same cardinality, but till now, I haven't been able to solve this problem (above). But I have a feeling that all real intervals be it open intervals or closed intervals all have the same cardinality.
Now, I have two questions to ask: How can I proceed to prove that $(a, b]$ and $[c, d)$ have the same cardinality?
(Till now, I have been trying to construct a bijection in between them, but neither of my attempts went well.) My second question, is: Whether my general opinion about equal cardinalities of all possible intervals is correct or not? If it it's true, how should I proceed.
@Ajay Sorry, maybe I said something misleading. We can get a rough idea of how radioactive an isotope is from nuclear models. But I wasn't suggesting that you try to do those calculations. All I was suggesting is that you find the emission data for your Fukushima isotopes & their daughter nuclei (from standard references) and use that to calculate the types & intensities of the alpha, beta, and gamma rays that your material emits over time.
@ThomasFinley Show that if $X$ is infinite, then removing finitely many points from X does not change cardinality.
14:00
@PM2Ring I already have the data for certain isotopes, it's really a matter of processing the data.
Thanks for the suggestions, i'll look into them :)
hey everyone, i need to show that S, which is the set of all finite bit strings, is countable. i tried using the bernstein-schroder theorem by doing the following:

1. Injection from N to S - each number has a unique representation in the binary system.

2. Injection from S to N - We first prepend each binary string with "1", so that for example "0001" becomes "10001". we do this so "1" and "0001" are not mapped to the same element in N.

Are these two mappings injections?
forgot to mention then we convert each prepended bit string to its decimal representation, which essentially is the mapping
@Koro what you said, seems much obvious. But if we think abt cardinal numbers, then the prblm asks us to show, that excluding fintely many elements leaves the cardinal number unchanged- Which is something , I feel not eligible to try considering my course. Also, it would be very helpful if you consider telling how will it help with my concerns?
14:28
Hi guys! This was a question concerning Derived sets.
The two questions are very trivial, for eg: The derived set in 1st case, will be $\{1/2^n,1/3^m,1/5^p ,\sum (1/2^n+1/3^m),\sum (1/5^p+1/3^m),\sum(1/2^n+1/5^p),0\}$ and in case of the second problem, it will be all real nos.
@THE_CRANIUM those do look like injections
But the thing, is, do I need to prove that there does not exist any other limit points for both the cases, apart from them ? Or will these listing suffice ?what is your general opinion ?
@THE_CRANIUM you can prove they satisfy the injectivity condition
@ThomasFinley you said in your message that you have proved that two closed intervals have the same cardinality. So [a,b] and [c,d] (where a<b. c<d, a,b,c,d are real nos.) have the same cardinality. Now, by what I asked you to prove: removing a from [a,b] will not change cardinality, i.e., [a,b] and (a,b] have the same cardinality.
(this is because [a,b], a<b is also an infinite set.)
15:44
@ThomasFinley Very trivial, but wrong.
15:56
@TedShifrin I corrected it (prolly) in OP.
So, regarding your question, start with a simpler question. How do you show that $0$ is the only limit point of $\{1/2^n\}$?
@TedShifrin $\{1/2^n\}$ is by it's own right a convergent sequence converging to $0$, so any of it's (sub)sequences converges to $0$ as well. So, $0$ is the only limit point.
OK, so this same argument answers your question.
My outside thermometer is sitting directly in the sun, it says 42.7 °C
@TedShifrin ok, but how? I mean, in this case we had only one limit point, but in that case, it has more than one. I don't see how the exact same argument applies there directly.
Are you suggesting, we find out all possible convergent sequences that are in that given set? And then, apply this argument?
16:06
Think about maximum $m,n,p$ appearing in your subsequence.
@TedShifrin Sorry but I am not sure what ur talking about, $m,n,p\in\Bbb N$ so, there isn't any definite maximum value of $m,n,p$ . (But, surely u never meant this,right?)
I did mean that. We're talking about a particular subsequence. If only finitely many $2$ or $3$ ... appear, then ... If not ...
@TedShifrin Ah, you meant the number of $\frac{1}{2},\frac{1}{3},\frac{1}{5}$ appearing in each term of a subsequence? If not, then I surely do smell some miscommunication here.
The powers, yes. If in a subsequence all of $m,n,p\to\infty$, then $0$ is the only limit point. How do you get other limit points?
16:21
@TedShifrin By keeping, either of $m,n,p$ fixed and then, keeping two of $m,n,p$ fixed.
That's how I found out the derived set.
(eventually fixed) ... that's what I meant by the maximum value, right
@TedShifrin hmm...so stating this so-appearing natural algorithm of finding the limit points, is enough to suffice a proof, if one wants it that bad ?
I don't know that I think of this as an algorithm, but it's the only way to "understand" the triple sequence.
@TedShifrin whatever, you call it, it's just that: one just needs to state how he/she is getting each limit points of the set given, i.e by first fixing each power and varying the other two to infinity, then, by fixing two powers out (m,n,p) and varying the left power (to infinity) and finally, varying all 3 of the powers to infinity- This way/method/procedure/reflex action, will suffice as a proof to the thing. Is it so ?
It exhausts all the possibilities, no?
16:28
@XanderHenderson Just to be clear, when I say “Islam is worse” I’m talking about all of it, not merely the Quran. You should hear some of the stuff their clergy can say openly without anyone batting an eye. I’ve heard it personally and it took all of my mental strength to resist punching that idiot and breaking his skull
@Hades We closed that conversation.
Just replying to Xander, Ted. His comments came after.
@XanderHenderson I have yes.
@TedShifrin By natural human intuition, I strongly feel yes. But I have no words to prove that it exhausts all possibilities, and it might be so that no has a "true" proof for the fact, that going like this way, I mentioned exhausts, all possibilities (?) (It's probably a kind of affirmation we get from within)
i've grown up with lots of muslims and they're all cool chaps so that seems arbitrary to me
Associate to a sequence $a_k$ an ordered triple $(m,n,p)$ for each $k$. Now study $(m_k,n_k,p_k)$ as a sequence in $\Bbb N^3$.
16:31
You’ll find good and terrible people everywhere.
yeah no clue why you single out islam
almost everywhere.
@shintuku because I’ve seen firsthand how bad it is, but like Ted said, let’s stop beating a dead horse. You can talk to me about it in another room
Let's not sound too much like Tromp inciting violence, here.
I'll ask again to desist from this. I fully admit that I'm responsible for having gotten it started.
Thus conversation probably belongs in the Christian SE room where I trolled Matthew so hard he had to block me 💀
It just does not belong here. I'll allow a discussion of why the Citroën 2CV was the best car ever built :D
16:36
@TedShifrin Now, studying that requires some more concept of sequences in higher dimensions. But yes, I worked on some sequences, $(a_k)$ where each term, say $a_n$ is an ordered tuple of the form $(m,n,p)$ but I don't understand, what sort of conclusion you insist upon deriving from there ?
@TedShifrin I haven’t even heard of it, there’s no way it’s the ‘best car ever built’ there’s too many candidates for that position, not to mention, you have to define what you mean by “best”
Well, focus on learning about that instead.
@TedShifrin learning abt what ?
@Thomas It must converge to $(m_0,n_0,p_0)$, where each is an element of $\Bbb N\cup\infty$.
The urge to drive and drift through Tokyo while playing Tokyo Drift while being chased by the Japanese traffic police is strong right now
16:38
@Thomas That was to Hades.
@onepotatotwopotato Super useful text, at least for the kinds of things I was working on during my masters work.
I think Hades needs to have his monster car taken away and be forced to drive a Citroën 2CV.
I think that is the book which introduced me to "weak tangents", which are an incredibly useful tool.
@shintuku hmm...how can I check if my function that maps a number $\mathbb{N}$ to its binary equivalent is injective if I don't have an explicit formula $f(n) = ... n \in \mathbb{N}$?
@TedShifrin I can win a race with you in any car Ted
16:40
LOL ... Go read about this one.
They were all over the French countryside and even in Paris in the 60s into the 70s.
@THE_CRANIUM i think you need some sort of recursive function
but also there's an argument by induction to be made @THE_CRANIUM
There you go.
This is the best car ever??
16:42
@TedShifrin Yes, (now this is starting to get funny) the thing, is, I could infer that. But then? Sorry, if I sounded ambiguously, I mean what relation are you insisting on hatching (from either of these) ?
You wanted a rigorous justification. This seems the way to give one. I think we're done :)
@冥王Hades Bien sûr.
@THE_CRANIUM try this: f(0) = 0, f(1) = 1, f(2) = 10 are all distinct. now suppose the first n mappings are distinct are show n+1 is distinct from n
@TedShifrin Are you sure this isn’t just nostalgia speaking?
@TedShifrin Ah, um, ok. Yes, we might put it in somewhat this way. But just to clarify things at hand, concerning the question stated like that, will it suffice, if I only, write out the set of limit points just like how I wrote in the OP as an "answer"? Do you suggest writing out all these things we did in our answer to that particular question?
@THE_CRANIUM the above argument will establish the injectivity of $f: \mathbb N \to S$
16:48
is sin z holomorphic at \infty?
@THE_CRANIUM that argument works without needing to give an explicit binary representation of the nth natural number
I think no.
@THE_CRANIUM maybe more formally: you show the function is injective on domain {0,1,2}, then suppose it is injective on {0,1,...,n} and show it is injective on {0,1,...,n+1}
Does this question have exactly one correct answer?
@THE_CRANIUM this will give you a set of functions $f_1, \cdots, f_n, \cdots, $ on domains $\{0\}, \cdots, \{0, \dots, n\}, \cdots$, you take the set of all of these functions and take its union, for which you need to prove that union of injective functions agreeing on common domains is an injective function
this will complete a formal proof of the injectivity of your desired function
16:57
@SineoftheTime I just ranted on that question about the sloppiness of confusing an element of $\Bbb Z_n$ (which is an equivalence class) with an integer. The business with associates is annoying. Saying $\gcd(a,b)\sim D$ rather than $\gcd(a,b)=d$ is annoying, but it allows the $\pm1$. Why do you think there are other correct answers?
@冥王Hades seems to love religious discussions. :)
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