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12:21 AM
Let $K[x,y]_{\langle x,y\rangle}$ be the localization of $K[x,y]$ at the maximal ideal $\langle x,y \rangle$. Is $K[x,y]_{\langle x,y\rangle}[1/y]$ a local ring?
 
Gee. I wonder why it’s called localization.
 
is it obvious to you it is local or nonlocal?
 
Have you done simple examples, like not with polynomials?
 
i'm studying valuation rings and that's the simplest example i could think of of extending a ring that is local but not a valuation ring
 
You’re in over your head. Start with $\Bbb Z$.
 
12:29 AM
problem is all localization at prime ideals there are valuation rings
i want the behaviour of extending local, nonvaluation rings
am slowly working through the $K[x,y]_{\langle x,y\rangle}[1/y]$ example step by step
 
So why is $\Bbb Z_{(5)}$ local?
 
i lied
$\mathbb Z_{(5)}$ is local because any element of $\mathbb Z_{(5)}$ who has a numerator divisible by $5$ is a nonunit
and that set is an ideal
 
So is there an obvious maximal ideal?
 
yes: any nonunit is contained in this single ideal
if you extend then this ideal by any other element not already in it, we get the entire ring
 
Is there a good way to describe it more succinctly?
 
12:40 AM
let me think
$(\mathbb Z - \langle 5\rangle)^{-1}\langle 5\rangle$?
 
Yeah, just the ideal generated by 5.
 
the issue is, in my above mentioned example the extension doesn't make it a localization anymore and we're making elements who were previously nonunits into units
 
Huh? I have no idea what you’re talking about.
 
the example $K[x,y]_{\langle x,y\rangle}[1/y]$
 
Oh, I missed the 1/y.
 
12:47 AM
previously, an element of $K[x,y]$ who's numerator was in $\langle y \rangle$ was a nonunit, now it becomes a unit
 
So how is that related to localizing just at $(x)$?
 
it's not a localization anymore, or at least, not a localization given by the natural homomorphism for localization at a prime ideal
 
So answer my question.
 
i'll think about it 2 seconds
i'm not sure, i need to think on it a while
 
1:24 AM
i have the $K[x,y]_{(x,y)}[1/y] \subseteq K[x,y]_{(x)}$ direction, I'm trying to get the other one
 
1:57 AM
any tips?
 
2:47 AM
@TedShifrin Notice $\frac{1}{x+y} \in K[x,y]_{(x)}$. Suppose we have $\frac{1}{x+y} \in K[x,y]_{(x,y)}[1/y]$. Then $\frac{1}{x+y} = \frac{p_0}{p'_0} + \frac{p_1}{p'_1y}+\cdots+\frac{p_n}{p'_ny^n}$ with $p_i, p'_i \in K[x,y]$ and $p'_i \notin (x,y)$. But since $x+y$ is not divisible by a power of $y$, we must have $\frac{1}{x+y} = \frac{p_0}{p'_0}$ and therefore $p'_0=x+y$, which is clearly in $(x,y)$, a contradiction.
so $K[x,y]_{(x,y)}[1/y] \subsetneq K[x,y]_{(x)}$
 
2:59 AM
anyhow, we have that it is a subring of a local ring and that's probably local
thanks for the help
 
 
2 hours later…
4:51 AM
A bilinear form $B$ on $\Bbb {R}^n$ is an inner product iff matrix of $B$ is positive definite.
Let $A$ is positive definite and $B(X, Y) =Y^tAX $
Then positivity and definiteness of $B$ follows from the positive definiteness of $A$
Linearity in the first slot is also obvious.
Conjugate symmetry of $B$ follows the the symmetry of $A$
 
@TedShifrin If I were to watch your lecture series for review
do you have like a curated problem set you would recommend to accompany watching the lectures?
I'm talking about the calc 3/lin. al. series
 
 
4 hours later…
8:37 AM
0
Q: There is a twin prime counting formula that is a direct generalization of the $\pi(x)$ inclusion-exclusion formula found on Wikipedia

D Left Adjoint to UI can prove on paper, using elementary techniques that if $f(t) =$ the total number of twin prime averages in the interval $(\sqrt{t+1}, t]$, then we may write: $$ f(t) = \sum_{d \mid p_n \#}(-1)^{\omega(d)} \sum_{r^2 = 1 \pmod d} \lfloor\frac{ t - r}{d} \rfloor $$ for all real numbers $t\in \Bbb...

 
 
2 hours later…
10:24 AM
peep
 
Mad
10:51 AM
$\Pi_i (A - \lambda_i \mathrm{Id}) (\psi) = \Pi_i (A - \lambda_i \mathrm{Id}) \left(\sum_i c_i v_i\right) \Leftrightarrow \Pi_i \left( A(\sum_i c_i v_i) - \lambda_i \mathrm{Id}(\sum_i c_i v_i) \right) = \Pi_i \left( \sum_i c_i (A(v_i) - \lambda_i \mathrm{Id} v_i) \right) = \Pi_i \left( \sum_i c_i (\lambda_i v_i - \lambda_i v_i) \right) = 0
$

is this argumentation correct
i am bit unsure due to the use of index i in both the sum and the product
A id matrices lamda eigenvalues psi is avector vi are the basis vectors and are eigenvectors of A.
technically speaking, i should denjote the sum with j?
 
11:07 AM
@TedShifrin Hello. I have a question regarding my question of a smooth simple closed curve as a union of finite number of arcs, each of them being a smooth function of one variable. I was thinking of an example (although not closed) : Define your curve $C$ by C(t) = (t^3,t^2) for t between -1 and 1. This is infinitely differentiable but has a corner at t=0. At this corner the derivative is (0,0) . So the curve is non-regular.
I observe that by "cutting" the curve at the point (0,0), you can consider the left part and the right part of the curve as a smooth function of y, where the derivative of each function (one variable, regarding to y) is 0 at point x = 0.
 
Mad
nvm i found my mistake
 
 
1 hour later…
12:44 PM
Let Z be the set of all irrational nos. How do I show that $\mathbb R^2\setminus Z^2$ is connected?
 
project to one of the axis and connect to the origin (for given point)
 
1:07 PM
by project potato means to take a path onto the x-axis, parallel to the y-axis, say
depending on which coordinate is rational
 
1:21 PM
Let $X, Y$ be two connected spaces and $A, B$ be two proper subsets of $X$ and Y$ respectively. Then $(X\times Y) \setminus (A\times B)$ is connected.
 
@TedShifrin I'd be happy to hear your response on my comment. If you want to help, you can do it. Perhaps reading the message with no response saves your time, but is of no use to me... As I told you earlier, I am still stuck to find a non-regular counter example, either by imagining its shape or defining it analytically, and I share my observations with you. I'd be happy to be helped step by step. I am stuck.
 
you have complete freedom to help him ted, you are unshackled by any bounds to help him
we know you thought you couldn't before, so we're teaching you the ways of the world. you are free ted, free!
 
@shintuku hello ?
 
hi
anyhow what's your question
also are you sure the derivative at the point (0,0) is (0,0)
seems to me that it is possible the derivative doesn't exist
 
1:38 PM
@shintuku derivative of (t^3,t^2) at point t = 0 is not (0,0)??
 
well do you have proof
 
Original question
https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/4712503/is-a-smooth-simple-closed-curve-the-union-of-finitely-many-arcs

read the comments if you want to help making a non regular counter example for the result
 
do you have proof the derivative of (t^3, t^2) at (0,0) is (0,0)?
 
@shintuku derivative of a vector consists of the derivative of each of its components
so the derivative of (t^3, t^2) is (3t^2, 2t). clear? Now tell me, and feel free, that what happens when we plug t=0. Feel free to answer.
10th grade math?
Derivative of this function is defined from [0,1] to L(R,R^2). At each point the derivative is a linear transformation, represented by a matrix, and this matrix is usually called the "derivative".
@shintuku No need to interfere when you don't know the basics of the issue.
 
listen you monkey, isn't the derivative of a parametric equation dy/dx
farrhad (bicycle) rubbish
 
1:50 PM
Sei nett zu ihm
 
hey he started it
 
Es ist nicht gut, wenn man unhoeflich zu einem anderem Person im Internet ist
Ja, aber wir brauchen kein Kampf hier
 
@shintuku You need to take Advanced calculus or read about it to understand the meaning of multivariable derivative, then we can talk, and of course I am free, like Ted, to answer your insult or not. I prefer not. Best wishes.
 
this is a good question that Farhad has asked
I had the same one, and I asked on physics stackexchange before
 
@shintuku Yeah, and this is the message where I started, with a post-modern meaning of "I", perhaps an intersubjective "I".
 
1:54 PM
@FarhadRouhbakhsh your curve isn't infinitely differentiable you trash, only the components of the vector are
 
brudda, wenn du so weitermachst, wirst du ein ban bekommen. Also hoer auf
 
@shintuku I am talking to myself now. Or you are talking to me?
 
"As we discussed, if the parametrization is allowed to be non-regular, the curve may not be smooth at all."
read this sentence from Ted
read it well
read it and understand it
 
in other words there's a difference between the derivative of the components of the vector and the differentiability of the curve itself. you need to learn the very very basics of curve parametrization
 
1:58 PM
@shintuku I think it doesn't need insistence from my part to show that I prefer not to talk with you. But you can continue as you like.
Respect is more important than curves
 
okay rubbish, and next time make sure you understand what you're saying before calling someone out on it, go back to 10th math grade (which is indeed your understanding of the subject)
 
A smile is a curve that can set a lot of things straight :)
 
@SouravGhosh broken LaTeX
why assume that $A, B$ are proper? $\emptyset$ is connected
for emphasis maybe
 
2:18 PM
Suppose we have a multivariable function f (here a parametric curve) defined from [0,1] to R^2. The derivative of the curve exists at p if and only if each of its components are differentiable at p. [Pugh, Real Mathematical Analysis, Chapter 5, Theorem 10]. The level of the book is higher than the level of 10th grade math, by the way, so one needs preparation to understand it.
*p is a point in the interval
and (t^3,t^2) is a classical example of a curve that has a cusp, but is nonetheless differentiable at t=0. After reading the book, it may be a good exercise to read some classical examples too, as it helps for beginners.
 
@Jakobian Ex:10( Munkres)
I call $\emptyset$ " useless connected set".
 
An interesting case is the curve (a simple circle) defined by (sin(t), cos(t)). When we take the derivative, we see that it is equal to (cos(t), -sin(t)) it is nowhere equal to (0,0). But for another curve with the same image, but a different parametrization, defined by (sin(t^2), cos(t^2)), we have that the derivative is zero at t = 0. So if we change the parametrization it becomes non-regular, If I didn't miss anything.
In the example of (t^3,t^2), the point that the derivative was zero (I mean t = 0) actually identified a cusp in the image. But in the example of (sin(t^2), cos(t^2)), at t=0 we don't have a cusp. As the image of circle is without cusps. I'd be interested if anyone can clarify why this happens, or the intuition behind it.
 
2:41 PM
@SouravGhosh why useless?
 
Mad
how can i show that if P is a projection on H_1 then the target set of 1-P is the orthogonal component?
i tried with <v,(1-p)v> to get zero for v in H_1 but no dice
 
I agree that the empty set as a space is generally useless, but how does connectedness enter the picture
If you're trying to say that connectedness has bad properties because of the empty set, hence it's not really connected, well I disagree with that, empty set is connected, it has bad properties because it's the empty set
The list of properties that work in exception to the empty set is very long, even in set theory
 
Mad
So i think the statement i madee is only true if pv = v IE P is an orthogonal projection, what would the target set of 1-p be if p is a just a regular projection? the original space?
 
jay
@porridgemathematics thanks btw that worked !
 
Mad
can someone help me?
Is it generally true?
i am thinking H\P(H)
because for (1-P)(v)=v-P(v)
 
2:58 PM
@Jakobian connected with respect to which def. of connectedness one uses?
 
3:12 PM
standard definition
 
Mad
anyone ? any tipp=?
 
or its equivalent
 
jay
For a Riemannian manifold with inner product $\langle,\rangle_z$ on the tangent space $T_zZ$. Is the existence of a metric tensor $G(z):T_zZ\to T_zZ^*$ associated to $\langle,\rangle_z$ just Reis representation ?
 
3:30 PM
@Mad Your question is not clear.
Empty set is connected [there doesn't exists any non empty proper clopen set].
 
4:13 PM
Hello guys! I was recently putting much thought into the statement: Let F be an Archimedean ordered field. Show that if F
satisfies Cantor's nested interval property then F satisfies Dedekind Completeness property.

I know a proof, that demonstrates an ordered field R (say) [which is a collection of Dedekind cuts (in rational numbers ) ] is complete (i.e every non-empty subset of R has a least upper bound). Can this be considered a proof to the above statement? What are you opinions?
(Also, the proof I have, doesn't even require Cantors Nested Interval Property)
 
I for one am a proponent of not treating the empty space as connected
 
me too
 
4:34 PM
Does anyone know how to prove this: Let $v$ be a discrete valuation of a field $E$, $h\in O_v[X]$ a monic irreducible polynomial of degree $n$, $x$ a root of $h(X)\in\tilde{E}(x)$. Suppose the residue polynomial $\bar h(X) is separable. Then one has to that $v$ is unramified in $F$.

A part of the proof says that the residue map $O_v\to \bar E_v$ can be extended to a place $\varphi_i$ of $F$ with $\varphi_i(x)=a_i$. Here for each $i$ between $1$ and $r$ $a_i$ is a root of $h_i(X)$ in $(\bar E_v)_s$.
 
@SouravGhosh added an answer to that just now.
 
what's the point of expressing an opinion without justifying it
 
what?
 
especially if it's a clashing opinion with someone else's
 
I think that it's just push and pull without any backing of an opinion by valid proof.
one party claims their opinion is right, while the other claims themselves to be right. There is no end to this.
 
4:46 PM
One doesn't have to agree with another, but if you stand by something then you got to have a reason, right?
Otherwise you just blindly agree to something
 
@Jakobian That is commonly called faith.
 
like believing in the "nature of numbers"?
 
The video? I haven't watched that yet.
 
In the context of definitions at least, when you are questioning a definition
questioning it without a reason, is just, why
from my standpoint it's irrelevant
 
For $G$ compact Lie group with bi-invariant metric, is it true that the diameter of $G$ bounded above by $\pi?$
 
4:58 PM
People try to argue that empty set shouldn't be connected because $\prod_{i\in I} X_i$ is connected iff $X_i$ is connected for all $i$ doesn't hold then for example
well, this is the same for pretty much any property that the empty set has, how is that relevant
empty set has weird exceptions like equivalence of $|X|\leq |Y|$ to existence of surjections has an exception with the empty set
or other things connecting with the fact that the empty set has no element, and it's the only set with no element
 
Empty set is a "useless finite set".
 
like, really, any "bad" properties that the empty space has, it just boils down to the empty set being a set with no elements
 
it's not useless. You can construct all natural nos. using it.
 
so I don't see a reason to questions those kind of definitions, rather maybe you want to change foundations
 
and then all integers, hence all rationals.
 
5:03 PM
The empty set certainly isn't disconnected, I guess if you are really into topos theory then you could also accept it not being connected
 
@Koro well really I'd say it depends on your foundation
 
continuous maps from emptyset to discrete set {1,2,3}...
 
I'm pretty confident you can make a version of ZFC where empty set doesn't exist
 
does one define functions on an empty set?
 
adjusting the axioms appropriately
empty set is more like a convenience than a need, probably
but it's what we use in our foundations, so I think it really just depends on what you choose for foundations, in the generally agreed upon ZFC, I'd say it's completely reasonable to say that empty set is connected, or rather, it's unreasonable to say it isn't
 
5:08 PM
@Koro Yes.Empty function.
 
@冥王Hades Suppose we have a book with cover of one piece or dragon ball characters but inside it is Hatcher's algebraic topology.
 
Just change the cover then
 
I'm thinking of doing that actually (putting some OP characters on cover):).
 
Suppose $N$ is a normal subgroup of $Gal(L/K)$.Does there always exists a normal extension of $K$ of degree $|N|$?
 
5:39 PM
@gewbDog5 For problem sets you'll actually need the book. You can find my homework assignments from teaching the course on my old website — these are mostly theoretical problems; the computational problems were done on-line (I wrote literally hundreds of exercises based on ones in the book). alpha.math.uga.edu/~shifrin/MATH3500 and alpha.math.uga.edu/~shifrin/MATH3510
@FarhadRouhbakhsh I was not ignoring you. I have not been here in over 12 hours. Yes, the issue is that you can piece together infinitely many of such curves. Even easier, use joined jagged line segments, but parametrize them so that the derivative is $0$ at each endpoint. In fact, it's even possible to parametrize them so that all derivatives at the endpoints are $0$.
But, as I said, the issue is to put infinitely many of these together (say with corners at $x=1/n$ for all $n$). Picture a shrinking sawtooth function. Anyhow, I guarantee you that Pugh is thinking of a smooth curve as one that has a tangent line at each point; you are on a wild goose chase here.
 
it's moreso that a connected space should be a space that has exactly $1$ connected component, whereas the empty space has $0$ connected components
if you go to the algebraic geometers, they will unanimously agree that the empty variety/scheme is not irreducible for much the same reason
from a higher topological perspective, connectedness really means $0$-connectedness in an appropriate class of "higher connectivities", each implying the preceeding ones, and being non-empty is the property of being $(-1)$-connected, so should be necessitated by connectedness
i don't really think that just saying "the empty set behaves badly cause it's the empty set" is an argument for not choosing conventions that make a bunch of statements behave as they should
 
@Thor Well, the empty set is certainly not disconnected. I guess that means it has to be connected, by default. Oh well.
 
it's the same type of issue as $1$ not being a prime number (even though it's only divisible by $1$ and itself) or the zero ring not being an integral domain (even though all its zero divisors are trivial)
 
Yeah, I get it. But I just checked Munkres's book and he does not say "nonempty."
 
I disagree that it's the same issue
 
5:49 PM
@TedShifrin I certainly wouldn't say it's not disconnected
there's a slight disconnect between intuitive names and convenient formalism going on
 
Yes you would. You cannot write it as the union of disjoint nonempty open subsets.
 
anyway, I agree that you can say empty set is not connected when in the context it conceptually helps with things
 
it defies our intuitive understanding of how the words should work, but I think we should say "connected = not empty + not disconnected", analogous to "irreducible = not empty + not reducible"
 
It's more the issue between constant polynomial and polynomial of degree 0
where the 0 polynomial sometimes is given degree of -1 or -infinity
 
Well, I don't find nonempty in the definitions. shrug I don't really care.
 
5:53 PM
do we define functions on empty space?
 
making the empty space connected ruins unique decomposition into connected spaces the same way making 1 a prime ruins unique factorization into primes
@Ted for connectedness? yeah, I don't think anybody really cares, except homotopy theorists. surely you will find it in any AG text for irreducibility, though
 
at koro: emptyset is initial in category Set
 
@TedShifrin Thanks for the response. I thought you were done with my approach or didn't like it :DD. Yeah, the issue is putting together an infinite number of curves with cusps. I've understood until here. I mean I can imagine such curves, by reading your examples. But my problem is I am not sure how to make sure that those curves are smooth, by my definition of smoothness.
Or, in other words, I don't know whether an smooth parametrization exists for the image I have in my mind (for example the image of the sawtooth function). That's where I feel lost. And yeah, I feel I am spending more energy than required, out of curiosity XD. And I feel you are right about the intention of Pugh.
 
then $\emptyset$ is connected is same as saying that any continuous function from emptyspace to discrete set {1,2,3} is constant.
 
sure
constant means there is element of the image such that all elements of domain get mapped to it
no issue there
 
5:55 PM
yeah, that characterization is potentially inequivalent for the empty space
 
@FarhadRouhbakhsh You have to define it piecewise. Figure out how to do one line segment, and then define the function by defining it (compatibly) on the intervals $\frac1{n+1}\le x\le \frac 1n$.
 
if we ask, however, that a space $X$ is connected iff for any discrete space $D$, mapping an element of $D$ to the constant function with that value yields a bijection $C(X,D)\cong D$, then the empty space is not connected
or perhaps we should ask that $C(X,-)$ preserves coproducts, which the empty set equally does not fulfill
not that I think there's an inherent reason to prefer one of these characterizations over another
 
@Jakobian but functions are always defined on a non empty domain.
 
at koro: for an arbitrary set s, there is a unique function between empty set and s
 
are they now
 
6:00 PM
we should definitely all agree that there is a unique function $\emptyset\rightarrow X$ for any set $X$
this is not negotiable
 
then how many functions from $\emptyset$ to $\emptyset$?
 
one
 
$0^0$
 
@Thorgott or decomposition of a set into sets of size $\leq 1$?
 
@shintuku so we are accepting that $0^0=1$?
 
6:01 PM
I think all of those things can be backtracked into cleverly hidden ways that empty set being empty is a culprit, and not really connectedness
 
at koro: for any set $s$, the unique function $\emptyset \to s$ takes an element from $\emptyset$ to $s$. since there is no element to take, any such function is the same
 
connected set being non-empty for convenience of the theory, I think that is fine
because you won't be saying non-empty over and over again
@Koro If we define $0^0$ to be the number of functions from set of $0$ elements to $0$ elements, then it's not accepting that, it just is that
 
at koro: the reasoning for $\emptyset \to \emptyset$ is the same as with any $\emptyset \to s$
 
@Jakobian why would you expect a unique decomposition into sets of size $\le1$, though
 
the issue with $0^0$ can be not $1$ is just that people don't accept it as the number of functions from set of $0$ elements to set of $0$ elements
 
6:04 PM
but if range =\emptyset, then where is function $\emptyset\to \emptyset$ mapping to? lol
 
Mad
i will reformulate my question.

if P is a projection (IE P.P=P and P hermetian)
1-P is also a projection.
if we denote the set that P projects to (or rather the vector space since its linear mapping) as V_1 and the whole vector space as V
where does 1-P (1 is the identity) map to?
I was thinking it was mapping to to the orthogonal elements to V_1
 
I mean, I'm not here to discuss what the origins of emptiness being an issue are, I'm just here to say that the empty space not being connected is optimal for the theory and I have not seen any argument that would suggest otherwise
 
Mad
But it appears ( i am not sure) that is only true if P is orthogonal projection
 
@Thorgott why would you expect unique decomposition into connected spaces
 
Mad
I have a second question
 
6:05 PM
cause if we have a non-empty disconnected space, we can split off a component and continue
just like why we would expect unique prime factorization
 
@Mad Yes. That's called the orthogonal complement of $V_1$.
If $P$ is hermitian, then it is an orthogonal projection.
 
you can't treat the empty set the same way you treat non-empty set
isn't it just that?
 
Mad
@TedShifrin but i am not able to prove it, i thought , let v be an element of V_1 , then <v,(1-p)v> is zero, i tried for hours
 
so it boils down to basic set theory
again!
 
@Mad That's the wrong inner product.
 
Mad
6:07 PM
@TedShifrin What do you mean professor?
 
You want $\langle w,(1-p)v\rangle = 0$ for every $w\in V_1$.
 
$\emptyset$ is for stand up comedy.
 
Mad
where does v come from? V?
 
at koro: it just satisfies the definitions for a function
 
again, I'm not here to philosophize about why the empty set is different from other sets
 
6:08 PM
why is connectedness different from any other property
 
?
 
at koro: e.g. it satisfies $x=y \implies f(x) = f(y)$ because we never have either $x=y$ or $f(x) = f(y)$
 
@Mad $v$ was yours. Why are you asking me? :D
 
at koro: so it is just a consequence of our definition of a function
 
Well, whetever or not the reason for why the empty set is different, the empty set is different
 
6:11 PM
yes, and I think that means its different behavior should be taken into account when making definitions
 
And like you said, irreducibility for example, we could argue in similar ways for that as for connectedness
 
at koro: if we don't want it to be a function we need to change our definition of functions, or add an ad-hoc element to the definition saying: this is the definition for all functions, except if the relation under consideration is the empty relation. i think this might formally be a contradiction, but without much consequence
 
So it really boils down to, we assume what's convenient
that's what I think
 
Mad
Okay, lets say v is from V (whole vectorspace) @TedShifrin then
$<w,v> - <w,Pv> \stackrel{Hermetian}{=} <w,v>-<Pw,v,> $ So it means $<w,pv>=<pw,v> $ this doesnt show anything
 
and I'm also arguing that for the notion of connectedness, the consistent definition is not make the empty space connected
 
6:12 PM
I think empty set should be connected unless said otherwise because historically, and in a standard approach, everyone says so
 
saying "the empty set is different" is not a counter-argument to anything, it's just pointing out why this conversation happens in the first place
 
Of course not, @Mad. You haven't used either property of $P$. Surely your proof must use both.
Oh, you did use one.
 
it is, because the argument is that it's not about connectedness
 
@shintuku I use (and I think it's the most popular function definition) functions defined on non empty domains.
 
of course it's about connectedness
 
6:13 PM
but there is no reason why this definition can't be extended to emptysets too so there is that.
 
the empty set warrants exceptions in many definitions, but there's no one-size-fits-all solution
 
but emptyset is not connected to me.
 
at koro: i'm thinking about: $f$ function iff (1) $f \subseteq \text{dom} \times \text{im}$ and (2) $x=y \implies f(x) = f(y)$ (3) $f$ is on entire domain
 
no, it's about the empty set being different because it contains no elements
 
for any particular definition, you have to consider how to take the empty set into account
 
6:14 PM
hence doesn't satisfy some properties that all non-empty connected sets satisfy
 
Mad
well i can then right that the expression is equal due to P^2 = P that
$<pw,pv> $... i still see no zero
 
yes, you're preaching to the choir, the "why" isn't the point of contention, it is the "what to do with it"
 
we could replace the property of "non-empty" with a different property like Hausdorff, and try to argue why compact spaces should be Hausdorff
 
Mad
oh well i guess you can then bring htem on the other side and have zero in teh scalarproduct
 
the answer is: because it's convenient to assume so
 
Mad
6:15 PM
Good i mean at this point w could have been equal to v
but now it doesnt make sense, because you could do this proof without 1-p.. jut for p
i am very confused, so p maps to its own orthogonal compliment
In addition, i have noticed
if P and G are projections and they commute, it means by force they are inverse to each other
And my second question was, if P and G anti commute, what does that represent?
Some kind of inverse that maps to -1 instead of 1
 
@Mad You seem to be writing a very disorganized proof, perhaps assuming what is to be proved.
 
Mad
@TedShifrin can you guide me on what i can do better?
 
@TedShifrin Good suggestion. I have an example in my mind. For each interval in the x-axis like [1/n, 1/(n+1)], I define my curve as a semi-circle (drawn above the x-axis) with the diameter equal to the length of the interval. The semi-circles keep shrinking up to zero. At the endpoints (where x = 1/n) the curve has cusps, but I think it is also smooth there (not sure about that) because it is where the two tangent semicircles meet . Do you think it works?
 
new upvote buttons suck
 
You have $\langle w,v\rangle - \langle w,Pv\rangle = \langle w,v\rangle - \langle Pw, v\rangle = \langle (w-Pw),v\rangle = 0$ since we assumed $w\in V_1$, so $w=Pw$.
 
6:23 PM
@Thorgott there is, just remove empty set from your category
 
Mad
Yes this is what i said
 
who needs empty topological space?
 
Definitely NOT smooth when you have a cusp @Farhad. We're still following your bad definition, so you just need to parametrize the zigzag union of infinitely many lines as I suggested, and have a parametrization that has zero derivative at each endpoint.
@Mad It is? I saw you assuming that the equality held and I didn't see you using $w\in V_1$.
 
Mad
I am sorry i misunderstood. Prof.Ted. why do you equate it to zero? i thought it was what we want to show?
 
Precisely. I proved it is $0$. I did not just say it was.
 
6:26 PM
@Jakobian well, good luck intersecting two disjoint subsets of a given space
 
$w-Pw=0$, and the inner product of $0$ with anything is $0$.
@Thor The intersection is vacuous, hence does not exist.
 
Mad
But i dont get it, why do you write that equal to zero? how do you know that?
 
connected subsets of R with cofinite topo. are finite sets.
 
Think about what projection means, Mad. What does it mean for $w\in V_1$? What is $Pw$?
 
say i want to argue there is no homomorphism between two rings $R, R'$. is the general approach to this, to show there is no ideal $I$ of $R$ such that $R/I$ has the same number of elements to a subring of $R'$?
 
Mad
6:27 PM
I understand that Pw = w, i dont understand it mathematically
 
Well, prove it with the properties.
What is your actual definition of the projection?
 
Mad
Okay.
P^2= p and P hermetian.
i guess you can <w,pw>=<pw,pw> which follows
ah i see.
 
@TedShifrin OK I will think about your new suggestion. I thought these cusps where the semi-circles meet don't harm smoothness (with my definition of being of a class C infinity), just like the cusp in (t^3,t^2) at t=0 doesn't harm smoothness, and it has zero derivative there.
But it seems I am wrong.
 
You're confusing your definitions, Farhad. You were working only with parametrizations, not with the actual curves. Now you're switching. And, no, a cusp is NOT a smooth curve.
 
hm i wonder who was saying this
 
6:30 PM
@Mad The definition I always use is that the projection of $v$ onto $V_1$ is the unique element of $V_1$ with the property that $v-Pv$ is orthogonal to $V_1$.
 
Mad
well, i am doing quantum mechanics, and the monkeys at my department could care less for understanding what the hell they are mathematically doing, i must Translate everything and fill the gaps, search math books for actually decent rigorous work
My second question was.
suppose P and G are such projections. if PG=GP. it follows PGPG =PPGG=PG so they are by force inverse.

what happens if PG=-GP? we have PGPG = - PPGG = - PG.

Is there any mathematical conclusions to be drawn here?
 
@Mad Totally wrong.
 
Mad
@TedShifrin how come?
 
Nothing to do with inverse.
What if the product is $0$?
 
Mad
I didnt think of that.
 
6:34 PM
Or what if $P=G$?
 
Mad
well thats a trivial case! we do not consider those
 
Yeah, well, we’ll just ignore the truth.
 
Mad
No we wont! the question is not formulated decently, i am sorry, the physicst mind is rubbing on me, suppose P and G are different but commute.
I guess it doesnt change the fact that zero is a valuable option
So no inverse..
sad
thank you nevertheless for your assistance
Was very helpful!
 
@Thorgott But empty set has so many of those properties, that we would have to make pretty much any property to not include the empty set on the same basis. Isn't that tedious? So why change one of them just because of it. Unless you are working ina certain environment for which it would greatly simplify to not use the empty set, I don't see the point
I don't know, I guess this is a boring topic on a boring thing, and it slowly approaches the heights of belief
or well, already reached them
 
is the following correct: the additive group $\mathbb Z_5$ has no subgroup other than the trivial one, since by Lagrange's theorem this would imply the order of the subgroup divides the order of $\mathbb Z_5$, yet 5 is prime
 
6:40 PM
@TedShifrin Oh, I see. But are we not trying to change the shape of the curve such that it can not be written as finitely many arcs? Do you mean that the image of the curve in R^2 with one parametrization is regular, and by the theorem can be split it into finite smooth arcs, and then by changing the parametrization the same can't be done although the image doesn't change? Did I understand correctly or I am deeply confused? XD
 
No neighborhood of the origin in the cusp is a graph over any of the axes, simply because the cusp does not admit a regular parametrization.
 
I mean for example (sin(t),cos(t)) has an image of a circle. Also (sin(t^2),cos(t^2)) has the same image. Your solution works for the first parametrization, because it's regular, but doesn't work for the second, because it has derivate (0,0) at t=0. But nevertheless we can CONSIDER the circle as a union of 2 smooth arcs, either with the first parametrization or with the second. But your solution doesn't work for the 2nd parametrization. That's where I get confused.
 
his answers works, you are hopelessly confused
 
@Mad actually think about it geometrically instead of just manipulating symbols. What do you conclude about the subspaces?
 
Mad
i am aware of the geometry, i am actually more interested in rigor of proofs right now.
 
6:46 PM
rigorous proofs don't fall from the sky. if you thought about projections geometrically, it would be obvious to you what commutation of projections meant
 
@FarhadRouhbakhsh No. That is not at all what we’re doing. You wanted a counterexample without the actual smoothness (regularity).
@Mad I don’t think you are.
 
@Jakobian no? it's a case-by-case thing
 
@shintuku Read his answer. His answer works only for curves with non-zero derivative. But (sin(t^2),cos(t^2)) has a zero derivative at t = 0. Doesn't it violate the assumption of regularity? But yes, if we change the meaning of "derivative" to having a tangent line at each point, perhaps "your" meaning of derivative, then yes, his answer works because the image remains the same under 2 parametrization.
 
e.g. I think the empty space should be considered a topological manifold, but I don't think it should be considered connected
 
lol it's not "my" meaning of derivative. don't worry fahrad, that curve isn't smooth, but your brain certainly is
 
6:50 PM
@FarhadRouhbakhsh Let $C$ be image of a smooth map $\gamma : [0, 1] \to \Bbb R^2$ with $\gamma^{(k)}(0) = \gamma^{(k)}(1)$ for all $k \geq 0$. The following are equivalent:
(1) There exists a regular parametrization of $C$, i.e., $\sigma : [0, 1] \to \Bbb R^2$ smooth map with $\sigma^{(k)}(0) = \sigma^{(k)}(1)$ for all $k \geq 0$ such that $\sigma'(t) \neq 0$ for all $t$.
(2) $C \subset \Bbb R^2$ is a *smooth submanifold* ie. for every point $p \in C$ there exists a neighborhood $U \subset \Bbb R^2$ of $p$, and a "tangent line" $\ell$ of $C$ passing through $p$ such that $U \cap C$ is a gra
Admitting a regular parametrization is, thus, an intrinsic property of the curve $C$.
 
@shintuku Take a look at [Pugh, Chapter 5, Theorem 10]. What I mean by derivative is not dy/dx, I mean the derivative of a function of two variables, with the explanations I told you above. I don't care what you mean by derivative. Regularity means the derivative of all of the components can not be zero at the same time. #Respect
Take a look at this for the definition of regularity (compatible with what I mean the derivative to be): maths.dur.ac.uk/users/pavel.tumarkin/past/fall16/DG/…
 
reread that theorem carefully before citing it, smooth-brain, and stop tagging me
 
@shintuku Take a look at the link. Definition 2.1 (c). I am free to tag or not. #Respect
 
@Farhad What function of two variables? We don't have any of those. We're not dealing with the curve implicitly.
@shin Just shut up.
 
i will bow to ted's authority and to no one else
also i justify the vitriol because they went on a downvoting spree on me
 
6:58 PM
@Thorgott isn't that my point? You want to make it case by case but the amount of cases is in abundance
Too tedious, better to just accept the definition on wikipedia or some book
 
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