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1:20 AM
Aww man, I missed another bully circle.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:31 AM
me too lol, I would have probably offered that you can construct topologies without referencing bases by saying 'the smallest topology so that some collection of functions of interest defined on the space are continuous' , and this thing exists because the intersection of topologies is a topology
so this does not require any notion of basis to define and it is often actually realized by a lot of topologies we care about
including so called 'large' topologies as referenced in the post
 
 
2 hours later…
4:15 AM
kinda glad i missed that
there are definitely weird topologies out there, not gonna defend topology, but, couldn't for the life of me figure out what that discussion was all about
 
Suppose that A is an algebra on X and that $\mu$ is a measure on A. It is given that $\pi^*(E\triangle F)=0, F \in M$, the set of all $\pi^*$ measurable sets (I know that M is a $\sigma$ algebra). Then, it is to be shown that $E\in M$.
I'm having difficulty showing that.
I can show that $E\triangle F\in M$.
$\pi^*$ is an outer measure w.r.t. $\mu$.
So we have $E\triangle F, F\in M$. Can it be shown now that $E\in M$?
TrystwithFreedom: Every topology has a basis (being the topology itsefl) that generates the topology.
 
I want to design a mapping so that
if input is -1 or 0 the output will be 1
if input is 1, the output will be 0
y = (1-sign(x))/2
but it doesnot work for x=0
 
@BAYMAX: Let $A=\{-1,0\}$, then consider the indicator function $\chi_A: R\to R$.
 
f(x) = (x - 0)(x - 1)/((-1) - 0)((-1) - 1)) + (x - (-1))(x - 1)/((0 - (-1))(0 - 1) )
 
4:31 AM
the indicator function above turns off outside A (i.e., gives 0 as output indicating that we have gone off A).
 
oh ok
i just wanted to write an algorithm code whcih takes the input and will return output for a large array without using for or if else
y = (1 - sign(x))/2 works for x = -1,1
indicator function is nice but i am thinking how to implement it using a single line of ode
code
Take x as an array of -1, 1
x = [-1 1 -1 -1 -1 1 1 -1 1 -1 1 1 1 1 1-1]
this single line statement works to give output y = (1 - sign(x))/2
Can we get an explicit equation for y?
 
Leslie gave a function.
 
4:55 AM
0
Q: Given $\pi^*$ measurability of a symmetric sum, showing that a set is $\pi^*$ measurable.

KoroSuppose that $\mathfrak A$ is an algebra on $X$ and that $\mu$ is a measure on $\mathfrak A$. It is given that $\pi^*(E\triangle F)=0, F \in M$, the set of all $\pi^*$ measurable sets. Then, it is to be shown that $E\in M$. $\pi^*$ is an outer measure on $X$ w.r.t. $\mu$. (Note: $E\triangle F:= (...

 
@leslietownes thanks, can u please rewrite using mathjax? its tricky to see with brackets a lot
 
You want 0 at 1 so it makes sense to have the factor (x-1) so f(x) should look like $(x-1)\times $ 'something'.
 
$$ f(x) = \frac{(1-x)(x+2)}{2} $$
 
you're lucky that you got mathjax from leslie.
 
I applaud baymax for squawking!
 
5:05 AM
Thank you Leslie, Koro, and Ted!
 
ted: phbpthbpthbt
 
And thistles to you, too.
 
5:23 AM
Don't artichoke.
 
6:00 AM
6
Q: Is it impossible for determinants of these matrices to both be negative?

BAYMAXSuppose $A,B \in M_{n}(\Bbb{R})$ such that $A = \left[C_{1}\middle|\frac{I}{0\dots0}\right], B= \left[C_{2}\middle|\frac{I}{0\dots0}\right]$ , where $A$ and $B$ have different first columns (represented as $C_{1}, C_{2}$). Thus we have $B = A+ \xi e_{1}^T$, where $\xi$ is a $n \times 1$ column ve...

I am not getting how in the second answer
we can show that there is no continuous path
any idea?
I could understand the proof though
 
What does the symbol $\rightarrow \leftarrow$ mean in a proof?
 
@Koro usually, "there is a contradiction" often in a proof by contradiction.
 
I see. Thanks a lot @robjohn
 
does that make sense in context?
 
If $\sqrt 2=p/q$, where gcd(p,q)=1, then it follows that 2|gcd(p,q) $\implies \rightarrow\leftarrow$
@robjohn yeah.
Thanks a lot :).
 
6:15 AM
np, you're welcome
 
6:26 AM
In the second answer we show that there is no continuous path to reach $D_{a}<0$ and $D_{b}<0$
 
when i was a graduate student i preferred symbols to narrative in a proof. that has changed over the decades
 
Suppose we start from $D_{a}>0$ and $D_{b}>0$ where all eigenvalues are less than one in absolute value
when we now change $a_{i},b_{i}$, $D_{a}, D_{b}$ also change continuously
say we reach $D_{a} = 0$ while the other $D_{b}>0$ ..we show this is not possible
so only choice remains is 1) $D_{a}=0$ and $D_{b} =0$ , 2) $D_{a} = 0$ and $D_{b}<0$
Now in both the cases atleast one eigenvalue is one.
and hence any move to the region of $D_{a}<0$ and $D_{b}<0 $ will have atleast one eigenvalue greater than or equal to one
 
 
1 hour later…
7:51 AM
in atiyah-macdonald intro to commutative algebra, there is a remark that I want to make sure im not misunderstanding, (For $A$ a Noetherian ring, $M$ an $A$-module) "For non-finitely generated modules the functor $M \rightarrow \hat{M}$ is not exact: the good functor, which is exact, is $M \rightarrow \hat{A} \otimes_{A} M$ and the two functors coincide on finitely generated modules", I get the statement minus 'good functor' , that isnt a technical term in category theory right?
i guessed he just meant this is the 'better' of the two functors because its always left exact
 
8:45 AM
Suppose that $\mathfrak A$ is an algebra on set X. Let F($\mathfrak A$) denote the smallest $\sigma$ algebra that contains $\mathfrak A$. Then for any subset $A\subset X$, there is a set $R\in F(\mathfrak A)$ such that $A\subset R$ and $\pi^*(R)= \pi^*(A)$. How do I show existence of such R?
Here $\pi^*$ is an outer measure on X.
I thought about using the set $S= \{E\in F(\mathfrak A): E\subset A, \pi^*(E)\ne \pi^* (A)\}$.
Assuming on the contrary that the statement is wrong, S is non empty because it contains X.
Then, I thought of using Zorn’s lemma but it didn’t work. Any chain (partial order inclusion) has X as upper bound so there is a maximal element of S.
But X is also maximal and that doesn’t give me what I want.
But X is also maximal and I don’t know how to use this to prove the statement.
Of course, Zorn’s lemma is not required here to conclude that X is maximal.
 
9:43 AM
you need to say how $\pi^{\ast}$ is defined, it cant just be any random outer measure because then your statement is false. Take the algebra $\mathcal{A} = \{X , \emptyset \}$ which is also the smallest sigma algebra it generates, let $X$ be $\{1,2,3,... \}$ and let $\pi^{\ast}$ be equal to the counting measure. Then $\pi^{\ast}(\{1 \}) = 1$ and there is no $R$ in $\{X, \emptyset \}$ such that $\pi^{\ast}(R) = 1$
typically the way this is proved is by using a definition like $\pi^{\ast}(A) = \inf \{ \sum \mu(B_j) : A \subset \bigcup B_j ; B_j \in \mathfrak{A} \}$, it basically comes right out of the definition
 
Suppose that some measure $\mu$ is given on algebra, the $\pi^*$ is as you have defined.
I think it’s like ‘upper sums’ in Riemann integration.
 
by measure, you mean pre-measure?
that is to say $\mu$ is countably additive on $\mathfrak{A}$ is known?
(so $\mathfrak{A}$ are caratheodory measurable)
 
It can be said so. Basically I want $\mu$ to have these three defining properties: 1) $\mu$ is non negative, 2) $\mu$ is sigma additive, 3) $\mu(\emptyset)=0$.
And I don’t yet know Caratheodory measurable.
 
yes you do, you referred to it in the post I answered
$A$ is caratheodory measurable if $\pi^{\ast}(E) = \pi^{\ast}(E \cap A) + \pi^{\ast}(E \cap A^c)$ holds for all sets $E$
 
9:59 AM
I see. I call that $\pi^{*}$ measurable.
 
okay, but you do need to know that $\mathfrak{A}$ is $\pi^{\ast}$ measurable for this to work
(which it is under this setup)
 
Yes, that’s true.
Algebra $\mathfrak A$ is contained in the set of all pi^* measurable sets.
 
 
3 hours later…
12:44 PM
@porridgemathematics indeed
 
@Thorgott ah okay, thats a relief
 
1:33 PM
any ideas as to how to solve my problem?
 
@Koro Go to therapy?
 
Do they provide mathematical therapy too?
 
Can maybe someone look at this question?
https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/4517798/how-do-i-compute-the-area-of-the-surface-where-z-x2y2-and-0-leq-z-leq-1
 
@Haveaniceday Done.
 
2:18 PM
0
Q: Showing existence of a measurable set which contains a given set and has the same outer-measure as the set.

KoroSuppose that $\mathfrak A$ is an algebra on $X$ and that $\mu$ is a measure on $\mathfrak A$. Let F($\mathfrak A$) denote the smallest $\sigma$ algebra that contains $\mathfrak A$. Then for any subset $A\subset X$, there is a set $R\in F(\mathfrak A)$ such that $A\subset R$ and $\pi^*(R)= \pi^*(A...

 
 
1 hour later…
3:28 PM
I managed to solve the exercise. @porridgemathematics.
 
3:48 PM
@Haveaniceday it appears you are only missing a factor of $\pi$
 
What's a factor of $\pi$ among friends?
 
Yeah, depends on the kind of pi...
I like pumpkin, apple, and key lime
 
I hate pumpkin, but approve of your other choices.
Most American pis are too sweet.
 
@TedShifrin You might be getting the $\frac{22}7$, which has just a bit too much.
 
No, it's more than a bit too sweet.
 
4:04 PM
@porridgemathematics This "goodness" is only kinda philosophy, and I would not agree with that. Today we have derived completions which is believed to be "the" correct completion.
 
4:23 PM
I prefer tarts, of course.
 
@TedShifrin Just make them with less sugar?
 
In Ireland folks use cooking apples which are not terribly edible but not as sweet.
They are a specific type of apple.
 
@copper.hat My grandmother used Granny Smith apples. It made for a wonderful pie.
 
and I like pineapples :).
They're such a tasty blend of sweetness and sourness.
 
4:53 PM
I don't think I've ever had a pineapple pie.
 
I don't remember when I had any pie last time.
Suppose that $\mathfrak A$ is an algebra on $X$ and that $\mu$ is a measure on $\mathfrak A$.
Given that $\mu(X)$ is finite, then I want to show that $E\in M\iff \pi^*(X)=\pi^*(E)+\pi^*(E^c)$.
If part: $E\in M,$ the set of all $\pi^*$ measurable sets $\implies \pi^*(X)=\pi^*(E\cap X)+\pi^*(E^c\cap X)$
I have difficulty in proving the other direction.
 
what is $E$? what is $M$? what is $\pi^{\ast}$?
 
$\pi^*$ is outer measure on X w.r.t. $\mu$. $E\subset X$.
$\pi^*(A):=\inf\{\sum_{i=1}^\infty \mu(E_i): A\subset \cup E_i, E_i\in \mathfrak A\}$ for any $A\subset X$.
M as I said in my comment, is the set of all $\pi^*$ measurable sets.
 
5:11 PM
@Koro I think a more common notation for the induced outer measure is $\mu^*$.
 
@copper.hat yeah, right.
 
5:57 PM
 
@PM2Ring :-)
 
PM2 is just trying to get even.
 
I think Conway & Guy said: "All primes are odd except 2, which is the oddest prime of all".
 
That reminds me of the various proofs that blank is the most interesting prime number.
 
I don't know that one, but I assume it's a variation on the proof that all natural numbers are interesting.
 
6:11 PM
Right.
This made the rounds when I was in college in the 70s. I haven't heard it in ages.
 
6:41 PM
A few weeks ago, I wrote a program to plot the number of primes in the intervals $[n^2-n, n^2+n]$ for natural $n$. Each interval contains $n$ odd numbers, and according to the prime number theorem, the number of primes in each interval is asymptotic to $n/\ln(n)$. We can give crude bounds of $n/\ln(n)(1+u/\ln(n)$ for $u \in \{-1,-1/2,1/2,1\}$
 
7:00 PM
Oh well. Chat won't let me post the script link. And I missed a few parentheses. The bounds curves should be $(n/\ln(n))(1+u/\ln(n))$
 
 
1 hour later…
8:29 PM
For the following proof, how does axler go to the 3rd line? He says it holds by the Cauchy-Schwarz Inequality however I can't seem to see why
or how the inequality implies that. I know the CS inequality says that $|〈v,u〉|\leq||v|| ||u||$
 
well |(Tv,Tv)| = ||Tv||^2, hopefully that gets you the first term? the second term is using the fact that a >= -|a| and cauchy-schwarz again
the c ||v||^2 is just vibing in the background
 
Ty lesile, idk why but i couldn't see that a>=-|a|. Thank you!
 
i think he's implicitly working with a real vector space here, so we know that b <Tv, v> is real. is he doing this for the real spectral theorem?
oh, b is real and T is self-adjoint. so it will work inthe complex case too.
 
8:59 PM
What’s the smallest the quantity can be, not largest?
My post was badly delayed.
 
I just learned a neat fact
Let $\omega$ be the order type of the naturals, and $\zeta$ be the order type of the integers
then $\omega+\zeta$ refers to the order type of $0<1<2<\dotsb<-2'<-1'<0'<1'<2'<\dotsb$
Is there a logical formula in the language of linear orders ($=$, $<$, logic operators, variables and quantifiers) that distinguishes these?
 
"these"?
 
you mean that they're not isomorphic?
 
Wait crap
I didn't say which two things
$\omega$ and $\omega+\zeta$
Is there a logical formula in the language of linear operators that distinguishes $\omega$ and $\omega+\zeta$
One thing that you could try is expressing "there is/isn't an infinite descending sequence", but can that be expressed in the language of linear orders?
(operators -> *orders)
 
9:16 PM
what language do they speak
I'd hope English
 
$\forall\exists$ language
(Australian, I suppose)
 
is this one of those games where we can't refer to or quantify across subsets? i forget this logic stuff.
 
Here are some examples of things you can write in this language (which are true of some but not all orders)
 
ok, i was thinking something like, exists S, S subset [linearly ordered set] and forall y, y in S -> exists z, z in S and z < y. i presume i can't use "subset" here.
 
Right, yeah, no
That'd be second-order logic
and then third-order logic lets you quantify over sets of sets
 
9:23 PM
well, as queen victoria once said, fuck that.
 
(Really this should be called 'zeroth-order logic'. I think the numbering would make more sense)
 
i like that guy's shirt. is it a zip-up?
 
(It feels off by one)
Here's the video, you can comment and ask him
Answer to my question at the end
I wonder if there's some sort of "topological first-order language" - then we can ask whether the sphere and the torus are logically indistinguishable. One thing I know is, the proposition "For any two disjoint closed sets, if the complement of each one individually is connected then the complement of their union is connected" is true of the sphere but not of the torus...
Well, I suppose that would be second-order, actually. But I feel like we need to talk about sets for topology. EDIT: There's something called 'pointless topology' (funny name) where we focus on just the relations between the sets and not their elements...
I wonder what sort of language we could set up to allow that? (Things like "The space is simply connected (meaning every image of a loop is the boundary of the image of a disk)" strike me as 'higher-order', somehow.)
 
@leslietownes Did she, now?
 
probably? it feels right
 
10:12 PM
For the proof above, what does the notation in the last 2 lines mean?
 
which part?
 
I'm referring to the sigma signs with the
{j: lambda_j = lambda}
 
Summing over all indices $j$ such that the corresponding eigenvalue $\lambda_j$ equals the specified eigenvalue $\lambda$
which may be more than one $j$ if it's a repeated eigenvalue
 
what Akiva said
 
Note that $\displaystyle\sum_{i=1}^n$ is the same as $\displaystyle\sum_{i\in\{1\mathbin{..}n\}}$
is the same as $\displaystyle\sum_{1\le i\le n}$, etc (assuming it's known that $i$ is an integer)
Basically you can put whatever condition you want on your indicator variable under the sigma
 
10:20 PM
I see. Thank you!
 
the idea there is that because of the linear independence of the (e_i)'s you can deduce from that stuff that a_j (lambda - lambda_j) = 0 for all j, and this implies a_j = 0 except for those lambda_j that happen to be equal to lambda
 
$\displaystyle\sum_{\text{$i$ is a two-digit number whose square ends in itself}}i=25+76$
I'm sorry, that's^ no longer me being in teacher-mode, I'm just having fun with this
(Well I dunno do I want to include $00$ and $01$ in that?)
 
nobody would call those two-digit numbers
 
Why don't we use $\^$ and $_$ more in notation
uh hm
${}^\wedge$, $\text{_}$
$\text{^}$
I think if vertical space is constrained, we should be able to write $a^\wedge b$ or $a\text{^}b$ instead of $a^b$
 
$\exp(\ln(a)b)$
 
10:27 PM
exp(b log(a)), bro
haha thorgott
 
god damnit!
 
two idiots, one thought
 
ninja'd by TWO PEOPLE!
 
I should have $\exp$ected this
 
I was typing exactly the same god damned thing!
 
10:27 PM
this came up in a patent i was looking at a while ago, where the applicant and patent office got around it by typesetting a^[complicated] as a [complicated]
 
I HATE YOU BOTH!
:(
 
Quick and easy: prove that $(\ln(x))^x$ grows faster than any polynomial
(not unrelated)
wait did I phrase that right
I did not
I meant $(\ln x)^{\ln x}$
(though I suppose this implies the other one)
 
the other one's just a little quicker and easier
 
that's $x^{\ln\ln x}$
 
Yeah that's the idea^
'cause for any $n$, eventually $\ln\ln x$ is bigger than $n$ so $x^{\ln\ln x}$ grows faster than all degree-$n$ polynomials
(just, y'know, it takes a while)
Now, $(\ln x)^x$ eventually grows faster than any exponential
I suppose the next logical question is asking what $x^{1/\ln x}$ grows like
 
10:40 PM
@AkivaWeinberger Is the answer "ur mum"?
 
Did you figure it out before you wrote that
 
For the same proof I sent, I now understand the notation and the last 2 lines however I don't understand what axler means by: "This will imply that the behavior of R on the eigenvectors of T is uniquely determined"
 
@AkivaWeinberger I didn't even think about it before I wrote that.
I still haven't thought about it. I'm not really interested in trivia or unmotivated problems. Tell my why I should care, and I might think about it, but "What is the growth rate of [f]?", devoid of context, is not a question I find terribly interesting.
 
igame: i would read that as, "this will imply that the function R is known on the set of eigenvectors for T" and hence (because R is linear and the eigenvectors span) that R is known
i.e. that you know how to compute Rx for x an eigenvector of T
kinda weird to see pleonasm like that in a modern text
(any particular value of a function is 'uniquely determined,' that's what it means to have a function in the first place)
 
@XanderHenderson Fine, I'll just say it: $x^{1/\ln x}$ is constant
It equals $e$
which is why I was confused about the "it grows like your mum" comment
 
10:53 PM
i guess he's also rolling in, the fact that this info is known for R assuming only that R is positive and R^2 = T proves the uniqueness of a "positive square root for T," but it's not really written very well
 
@AkivaWeinberger Like I said, I didn't even think about it.
I guess you were making a joke.
:P
Now I know why I should care.
 
the way it's written, it isn't even expressly clear that axler is proving existence (although he is)
shame on sheldon
 
EM4
11:13 PM
question, should someone learn proofs and applications at the same time?
 
@EM4 Yes? as opposed to what?
 
Sure. Why not?
 
In what context?
 
I certainly tried to teach courses that way.
 
I mean, I probably wouldn't spend too much time on proofs in a kindergarten class...
 
11:17 PM
I'm not sure how you'd spend time on applications, either.
2 apples + 3 apples
apple is an application
 
EM4
like calculus.
like do calculus applications and proofs as well.
 
Of course.
Although most college courses in the US do almost no proofs because we're teaching engineers.
My policy when teaching the standard science/engineering calculus courses was to do only proofs that give one insight into what's going on, not proofs that are clearly "mathematical masturbation."
Many proofs are written to obscure what's going on; that's not going to convince students that they should learn proofs.
 
EM4
oh okay, I will keep that in mind.
yes, in US we start proofs so late, especially my school.
 
But one should do some derivations/proofs in basic calculus courses. I just think that many college teachers take the path of least resistance and skip them.
 
EM4
what's crazy I learned derivative proofs in Real Analysis.
In Calculus 1, my teacher never did it.
 

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