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01:29
@copper huh?
@TedShifrin A comment on @leslietownes 'mutants mutants'
Oh, I know. I was replying to your previous post!
I am no stranger to words or play therewith.
02:00
@TedShifrin Wow, I am slow. I just realized what your 'huh' referred to.
Hi, this might be trivial (or uninteresting enough to not have any elegant solution) but how do I solve for a unitary operator $U$ provided that $UOU^\dagger = aO+b\mathbb{I}$ for a given self-adjoint operator $O$ and given real numbers $a,b$?
02:16
hello
@DvijD.C. Can you even solve this when $O$ is diagonal and $b\ne 0, a\ne 1$?
@TedShifrin Ah, oopsie. Good point, something quite interesting was supposed to happen physics-wise if there were to be a solution. Thanks :)
There may be something if $a\lambda +b$ is always one of the diagonal entries for every diagonal $\lambda$. This may be possible in special circumstances. Check it out.
02:45
is there an algebraic object with an operation but no identity element?
 
1 hour later…
03:55
obliv: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magma_(algebra) might be the appropriate level of generality for that.
semigroups (where the binary operation is associative) are also really common, although it's also quite common for semigroups to come with an identity.
Every open ball in $\mathbb R^2$ is an uncountable union of open rectangles (that is, elements of the form $(a,b)\times (c,d)$).
This seems difficult to visualize.
04:11
or a countable union of open rectangles, even. i'm not sure what there is to "visualize." any open ball contains a rectangle with rational coordinates that contains the center of the ball. i guess that's a visualization of the concept, if not the consequences of it.
note that it's fairly difficult to 'visualize' an arbitrary open or closed subset of R^n. other than being open/closed, they can look pretty goofy. but for a lot of topological results, you tend not to need to rely on what a set 'looks like,' too much.
or if you do, you're using more structure than just the topology.
@leslietownes well, there's a reason for why there are approximate identities
Yep, you can replace unions with countable unions in a separable metric space
05:20
@TedShifrin OK, that's an interesting possible special case but I think no such special case can exist for finite-dimensional operators. Maybe there is a simpler explanation but here's what I thought: let's say there are $k$ eigenvalues that we write as $e_1, e_2,\dots, e_k$ such that $e_{i+1}=ae_i+b$, for $i=1,\dots, k-1$ and $e_1=ae_k+b$. Either $k$ could be equal to $d=\mathrm{Tr}(\mathbb{I})$ or it could be some smaller number and there would be multiple such cyclic systems. [...]
[...] Now, using the linear recurrence formula, $e_1=ae_k+b$ can be arranged for some $k$ only if it holds for all $k$ and $e_1=b/(1-a)$, i.e., $O=(b/(1-a))\mathbb{I}$.
dvij: if the spectrum and spectral multiplicity function of O is symmetric about b/2 (b real) then O and -O + bI will be unitarily equivalent, but this might be the only interesting case
e.g. if P is a projection and ker P and ran P have the same dimension, P and I-P are unitarily equivalent
i agree that if |a| isn't 1 you run into trouble in the finite dimensional case and maybe always, but a = 1 (forcing b = 0) is the boring case of O being unitarily equivalent to itself, and a = -1 is the case i just mentioned
05:36
@leslietownes Ahh, yes, that makes sense. Turns out I carelessly canceled some factors in manipulating the result of the recurrence formula which missed these non-trivial interesting cases.
05:46
Is that hard to find responses here to certain questions?
sureta it depends, both on the type of question and the people here and general activity in the chat at the time. lately there has also been fairly low activity here, which may have kicked off a feedback loop of having even chat regulars check in less often.
i'm only here because a custom alert alarm bell went off on my phone when somebody said "unitary operator"
sounds like some evangelist emergency
i'm branching out in my mad dash for an orange jump suit.
complex sounds like convex anyway.
06:06
copper grew up in ireland, which means he believes in a trinitary operator
apparently the pagans had something of a fixation on small odd numbers so they were easy prey for the soul thieving patrick.
vatican ii replaced ghost by spirit and that was then end of it all
went straight to abuse from there
dependence on primes is pure dangerous, encryption beware
see what you've unleashed
well, good night now :-)
good night
 
4 hours later…
10:08
Does anyone care to alphatest BananaCats?
@robjohn
10:29
@copper.hat
@Rithaniel
 
3 hours later…
13:01
if $T:X\rightarrow Y$ is invertible linear map, that is closed and $X$ is Banach, then is $Y$ Banach, too?
13:58
Are we assuming $Y$ is a normed linear space?
 
1 hour later…
15:24
so, my students ran into the following integral on their quantum quiz today: Let $\phi_n(x,L)=\sqrt{2/L}\sin(n \pi x/L)$ for positive integer $n$ and positive $L$. They needed to compute $\int_0^L \phi_n(x,L)\partial_ L \phi_n(x,L)\,dx$
this is not hard to write out by hand, but what surprised me is that this integral apparently vanishes identically and I don't really know why
closest i can see atm is that you can rewrite it as $\frac12 \int_0^L \partial_L [\phi_n(x,L)^2]\,dx$
but that's a total derivative w/r/t $L$, not $x$
oh. i guess i see it: Leibniz integral rule says $$\partial_L \int_0^L \phi_n(x,L)^2\,dx = \phi_n(L,L)+\int_0^L \partial_L [\phi_n(x,L)^2]\,dx$$
but $\phi_n(L,L)=0$ and $\int_0^L \phi_n(x,L)^2\,dx = 1$, both of which were required from the underlying construction
16:14
are there an infinite amount of possible axioms for a mathematical framework?
as in: given a particular mathematical framework (whatever that precisely means), are there an infinite number of ways to give axioms for it?
(my own guess would be "no" in general, but "yes" for anything actually interesting. i.e., you can come up with frameworks which are finite but that these aren't going to be all that useful)
@robjohn If you ask WolframAlpha to expand $\operatorname{Li}_{s}(1)$ in a series at $s=0$, it returns a Taylor series. At first I was very confused, but then I realized that what it was returning was the Taylor series of $\zeta(s)$ at $s=0$. Apparently it thinks the identity $\operatorname{Li}_{s}(1)= \zeta(s)$ holds for all $s$, but I'm pretty sure it only holds for $\Re(s) >1$.
@RandomVariable mathematica does this too
but it also doesn't simplify $\text{Li}_s(1)=\zeta(s)$ to true, which is contradictory
and moreover it can't actually make sense of $\text{Li}_s(1)$ for $\Re (s)\leq 1$
so that's a bit wacky
16:31
It seems to return complex infinity for all values of $s$ where $\Re(s) <1$.
it knows something you don't
If $\operatorname{Li}_s(1)=\zeta(s)$ for $\operatorname{Re}(s)\gt1$, then the analytic continuation of both for $\operatorname{Re}(s)\le1$ should be the same.
Perhaps Wolfram doesn’t consider analytic continuation in parameters.
16:58
@robjohn I'm a bit confused. You're not saying that $\operatorname{Li}_{s}(1)$ has a Taylor series expansion at $s=0$, are you?
@RandomVariable no, nor does $\zeta(s)$. They have Laurent expansions, however.
If you allow the analytic continuation
Unless I am missing something.
Oh, wait, I am thinking of $s=1$
Then, the analytic continuations have a Taylor expansion at $s=0$. If you don't look at the analytic continuation, then neither exist as naively defined for $\mathrm{Re}(s)\lt1$
That is, $\sum\limits_{n=1}^\infty\frac1{n^s}$ does not converge for $\mathrm{Re}(s)\lt1$.
17:19
@robjohn So if you allow the analytic continuation, both $\zeta(s)$ and $\operatorname{Li}_{s}(1)$ have the same Taylor series at $s=0$? Wouldn't that mean that $\operatorname{Li}_{0}(1)=- \frac{1}{2}$?
17:32
If one considers $\mathrm{Li}_s(1)$ a meromorphic function in $s$
@robjohn But how does this square with the fact that $\operatorname{Li}_{0}(z) = \frac{z}{1-z} $?
Obviously, $\mathrm{Li}_s(z)$ is not continuous on $\mathbb{C}\times\mathbb{C}$ at $(s,z)=(0,1)$
This is the same problem with $0^0$
17:56
@robjohn Then what did you mean when you said the other day that there's a pole at $\operatorname{Li}_{0}(1)$?
This is the problem with $0^0$; it depends on how you approach the singularity (pole). $\lim\limits_{z\to1}(1-z)\mathrm{Li}_0(z)=1$.
Whereas, $\lim\limits_{s\to0}\mathrm{Li}_s(1)=-\frac12$
@robjohn Now it makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
18:15
0
Q: Constant functions in a Sobolev hilbert space

MathematicallyInterestedLet $U\subseteq \mathbb{R}^n$ be open, bounded, and connected. If $f\in \overline{C_{c}^{\infty}(U)}$ is constant ( in the $||.||_{W^{1,2}(U)}$ norm ) then $f\equiv 0$. My attempt: Choose a sequence of test functions $\phi_{n}\in C_{c}^{\infty}(U)$ such that $\phi_n\rightarrow f$ . So, $||\phi_{...

How can I motivate Lagrange's remainder for Taylor series? Once one has the guess that $R_n(x)=\frac{f^{(n+1)}(c)}{(n+1)!}(x-c)^{n+1}$ for some $c$ between $x$ and $x_0$ the proof is very simple, just applying the mean value theorem again and again. But I wouldn't be able to start the proof if I hadn't first guessed that this is the form it should take. I thought of asking this question but it seems it would be a duplicate as it has already been asked before:
https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/3268002/intuitive-understanding-of-taylors-inequality-lagranges-remainder
But it didn't get any answers. There is one helpful comment but I don't find it too satisfying.
@Snaw That's the wrong formula for the remainder.
Yeah, I was just about to fix it but I seem to not be able to edit the message.
I meant $R_n(x)=\frac{f^{(n+1)}(c)}{(n+1)!}(x-x_0)^{n+1}$ of course.
It seems totally motivated by generalizing the mean value theorem.
The other remainder formulas are harder to motivate, it seems to me.
I've found plenty of proofs that seem too complicated, but there are straightforward proofs using the Cauchy Mean Value Theorem.
18:33
Yeah, I like the proof using Cauchy's MVT. It's very straightforward. My problem is how one would have guessed this formula in the first place. You mention generalizing the mean value theorem. I'm guessing you mean something like that if at $x_0$ we have that $f$ is $n+1$ times differentiable with its first $n$ derivatives vanishing then for every $x\ne x_0$ there is some $c$ between $x$ and $x_0$ such that $\frac{f(x)}{g(x)}=\frac{f^{(n+1)}(c)}{g^{(n+1)}(c)}$.
This isolates part of the problem, but it would still not be clear to me why I should use $g(x)=(x-x_0)^n$ or why it should be obvious to me that this result should be applied in order to find the remainder of the Taylor series.
I'm not looking for very deep motivation either. Is there a way I could play around with simple Taylor series and find this guess by myself after encountering enough examples?
(Above I should have said $g(x)=(x-x_0)^{n+1}$.)
You compare the error term in the case of the zeroth T.P. to the form of the first degree T.P. You expect the error in the $n-1$ case to be of the corresponding form of the next term: $(x-x_0)^n/n!$, but, as in the zeroth case, the coefficient is $f^{(n)}(c)$ instead of $f^{(n)}(x_0)$.
@TedShifrin Oh, wonderful! Thank you!
19:00
What is the meaning of $\{x_{1j}\}_{j=1}^\infty$ ?
This is supposed to be a sequence but I wonder what is $x_{1j}$ when j= 10.
$x_{110}$ or $x_{11}$?
@Koro I'm guessing the intention is that you should imagine that there is a separator between $1$ and $j$? So for $j=10$ you'd get $x_{1,10}$ or something like that. Like when indexing a matrix using $a_{ij}$ where $i$ is row and $j$ is a column, if you substituted $i=10$,$j=11$ you'd use some separator between them.
Correct. You have a double sequence, just as you have matrix entries.
@Snaw I don’t think that there’s a separator. given a sequence $(x_n)$, it’s being rewritten as $\{x_{kj}\}_{j=1}^\infty$ and it is being claimed that this rewritten sequence is a subsequence of $\{x_{k-1,j}\}_{j=1}^\infty$.
I’m not sure why ‘subsequence’ part is true.
you should imagine a separator or ask whoever wrote it, koro.
There are double indices.
19:12
$x_{11}, x_{12), x_{13},…$ (first row) and the second row is $x_{21}, x_{22}, x_{23},…$ and so on.
It makes perfectly good sense for $k$ to stand for the level of subsequence. Proofs like this show up once in a blue moon.
What is your issue, @Koro?
maybe they're wrong and it's not a subsequence. maybe it's a subsequence depending on properties specific to x_whatever that you haven't mentioned. but if the unexplained concatenation in x_{1j} was intended to mean digit concatenation i expect that somebody would have said that.
is it just me or is yahoo mail down?
leaky: down for me, too.
The second row is a subsequence of the first row.
I don’t understand why.
19:14
Because they're constructing it that way.
Imagine how you would do it with the usual subsequence subscripts if you take subsequences of subsequences, etc. You can't write $x_{i_{j_k}}$ with an arbitrary number of subscripts
i used to insert a comma in my double indices if there was any doubt. kind of like doing einstein summation and also writing the sigma.
there should be subscript tower notation, like power towers.
Oh I see. They are creating sequences like that. $x_{11}$ is not what I thought it was (it’s not the eleventh term of the original sequence).
row n is subsequence of row n-1. The point is that every element in any row is from the original sequence $(x_n)$.
The original sequence is $\{x_{11}, x_{12}, x_{13}, \dots\}$.
No, the original sequence is $\{x_1, x_2, x_3,…\}$.
So the theorem being proven is “If X is a totally bounded metric space, then every sequence in X has a Cauchy subsequence.” And what I asked above is essential for the diagonal argument that the proof is going to use now.
Precisely.
And, as I already said, if you use the usual nested subscript notation, good luck with the proof.
19:22
The book says-“It’s important that one add this technique to one’s bag of tricks.”
@leslie @robjohn Have you seen this guy? I first encountered several posts where he answered (with horrible answers) and advertised an applied linear algebra book he's written. I wonder if he's an utter charlatan.
the asker or the answerer? neither appear to have been around for more than a few days. haven't seen any of it.
oh, i see. that's very weird.
In the link I gave, the asker.
I can track down some of his previous answers.
i'm not one to conspiracy theorize, but a person sock puppeting to get their rep over a threshold seems more likely than a person authoring a book and then also asking questions like that.
But I won't unless asked.
19:30
even if it's a bad book.
Anyone who puts Dr. in his "name" here makes me suspicious.
math.stackexchange.com/questions/4418603/… one in which the asker and answerer are reversed.
He does seem to be on the faculty of some podunk university in India, not in mathematics.
my guess it's some kind of sock puppet thing but who knows.
Oh good grief. Another "Dr." somebody. I bet they're both the same guy. Is that what you mean by sock puppet?
19:32
in a lighter, less judgmental world, i'd name change to Dr Leslie, join in on some of these with comments like "Wait, which one of us is talking?"
Ah, I recall that today I came to know that one of our moderators here on mse is writing a real analysis book but my office internet blocked the site so couldn’t check it out. I’ll try that.
ted: yes
Moderators?
@leslie If this continues, I bet @robjohn knows how to put a stop to it :D
i expect they have semi-automated systems that keep track of that stuff and elevate it even if users don't. this seems to be a recent venture.
@TedShifrin yes, here on mse. I read it on their profile.
19:35
just what the world needs, another analysis book. sigh. they should do analysis tiktok videos.
Daniel, who used to be in this room all the time before he became a moderator, would probably write a good one. Who is the person, @Koro?
@TedShifrin Aloizio Macedo
Oh, somehow I thought he was a grad student.
Nope, has a Ph.D., working in traffic control.
It's very awkward for people outside academia to write a textbook. I couldn't have written any of my four without teaching the courses with the efforts at the books and revising for a few years.
i could see it working in an applications oriented area. so many applied problems in math books are made up, or decades old.
maybe not intro real analysis.
but like i was saying, tiktok is where it all happens now.
@leslie I think your sock puppet theory has to be correct. Just those two questions will do it. (I had seen our Dr. elsewhere ...)
Let me just post some easy arithmetic questions for myself to answer.
19:41
my daughter hasn't progressed to actual sock puppets but she does sometimes claim to be one of her imaginary friends, to similar effect.
What's the point of having imaginary friends if you can't be them when you want?
@leslietownes is that a bad thing?
They could be classmates, who knows.
koro: the totality of the circumstances just looks weird. very new accounts, someone who apparently claimed to author a book asking questions on the very elementary subject matter of that book, and also answering them.
i don't know.
mathematically the question and answer are fine. i didn't upvote, though. :D
But it is a rare sight here that asker and answerer are reversed 😄😄
I think I may have seen this for the first time here.
ted: if there was a coyote in your front yard, but not close enough that you think you'd bother it, would you take a toddler outside to have a look at it? if you can't easily see it from a window.
19:58
@Koro It lends 1000% credence to Leslie's theory. There should be a watch placed on these accounts. I wonder if @robjohn can do that.
No, no coyotes for kids, @leslie.
if you're holding her. she can't, like, run up to it or anything.
still a no?
still a no.
sheesh. live a little, guys
 
1 hour later…
21:09
Wikipedia claims
> the Minkowski sum acts linearly on the perimeters of convex bodies
Why is this?
changing name to dr hat
Just for me, copper. I'm so flattered.
DogAteMy: Consider the Minkowski sum of two line segments (thought of as the limit of a slightly thickened line segment). The sum is a parallelogram, whose boundary has double the sum as its perimeter. But each line segment is really doubled to start with.
And now for convex polygons...
I imagine the resulting polygon will have a copy of each original line segment
math.stackexchange.com/questions/4081004/… is one approach for shapes with smooth boundaries.
Yeah, probably want to think about the volume of tubular neighborhoods and the coefficients that appear.
21:15
@leslietownes Oh neat
Looking at the farthest point in a certain direction (which I suppose means the point with the largest dot product with a given unit vector) seems to be the key idea
There's a neat result called Barbier's theorem which says every curve of constant width $d$ has perimeter $\pi d$
This Minkowski fact gives a quick proof
So does the Buffon's needle problem
(filling in the details are left as exercises for the interested chatroom member)
@copper.hat: what's the occasion for changing such iconic name?
21:56
@OliverDiaz I was just kidding, there was an earlier discussion about folks who had dr in their username :-)
There are another two proofs in the exercises in my diff geo book, @Akiva.
@copper.hat: for a minute I thought that having being in the wars at MSE against the Vogons (or curators) your copper hat did not protected you well enough caused you to go into the dr i.am.great band-wagon. Anyway, good to know it was a joke.
22:20
@TedShifrin I can't say much other than "thanks".
Hello !
I have a question that I need help with
What does this function do defined on the set of natural numbers :

f(a,0) = a , f (a,s(n)) = s(f(p(a),n))

where is the functions s and p are the successor and predecessor functions respectively .
I found it with trying few values that it is the maximum function
but it feels like cheating, how do we formally prove this?
can you 'formally prove' (in quotes because i don't know what you might require by this) that max satisfies the same relation?
it is good approach but how do we accomplish that?
we have only defined addition and subtraction inductivley
well, how is max defined?
@OliverDiaz :-)
22:26
I am not sure, need to think about it
I know what it is , but using this primative language seems complicated
my initial idea was to do it by induction for a = 0 and a = s(k)
but I am not getting to something useful yet
base case is trivial
ok. this is the difficulty with being forced into a formalism, the exact contours of which we might not know. if there isn't something that you 'already have' that you can prove this thing equal to, there might be a question as to what types of answers count as 'allowable' or not.
e.g. can you just make up some similar recursive thing and prove it's equal to that. or is it OK to introduce some non-recursive things and assume their properties.
and if so which ones.
I think we are allowed to use recursive definition to make it work
since what we did so far was just that, defined addition , muliplication and subtraction inductively
but we do not formally have the less than symbol , but it might be Ok to use it
if you have some ideas in mind please let me know ! i solved all other problems exept this :D
( even with non - recursive things ) that might be of help as well
this is also a kind of goofy definition. for example what does it say f(0,s(0)) is. it tells me to look at s(f(p(0),0)). but what's p(0)?
p(0) = 0
the function p losely speaking subtracts 1
and the functions s adds 1
but p(0) = 0 = p(1)
okay, 0 being its own predecessor is also not something i was expecting. it might be fine in your system but i don't think is a universal standard.
22:35
True but that is what we are using
we are considering only the natural numbers starting from 0,1,2
your idea of showing that the max function and this one are equivalent is very good, but i dont see how to implement it
@robjohn I am clueless about this sort of thing, but I presume your "thanks" was overbrimming with sarcasm.
@TedShifrin Hello Ted !
@TedShifrin Not at all. I can't say more due to privacy concerns.
John and Ted , please lend us a hand if you are free :D
@leslietownes The usual definition makes no reference to the algebraic structure. I think I discovered the formula for max only in an exercise in Spivak's Calculus many years ago.
Oh, OK, @robjohn. Thanks for helping.
@Jack Leslie is referring to a formula for $\max(x,y)$ in terms of algebraic operations in the real numbers.
22:40
I never seen a formal definition for max to be honest
whenever we used it , it was just clear what to do
Oh, how 'bout $\max(x,y) = y$ when $y\ge x$, etc.
ted: yeah. the issue here is how to prove something is "equal to max" when maybe multiplication and addition are the only primitives and there's no other thing singled out as 'the' max that we can prove it equal to.
ted: they don't have the order on naturals, apparently.
As I mentioned, it is not universally known, so I'll just tell you. Try this: $$\max(x,y) = \frac12\big(x+y+|y-x|\big).$$
jack, were you asked to formally prove this function equal to some other function? or just asked to identify it in familiar terms?
I'm not sure if you have the absolute value function :P
22:42
it wouldn't be uncommon for someone working in a formal system to simply say, for example, that something given by an arcane recursive formula is the definition of max. it kind of reverses our understanding of what definitions are good for.
but it's not unheard of.
okay but to solve the first part, assuming we have a max
how do I use induction here?
a = 0 and a = s(k),
first i have to formally prove it is the max for all naturals
do I have to double induction?
because the argument takes "a" and s(n)
I'd start by proving $f(0,a)=a$
okay Ill do that now
Then rewrite $f(a,b)=s(f(p(a),p(b)))$
what will be the inductive hypothesis in this case?
in the case of given numbers it is clear what to do but not for arbitrary naturals
or wait i think i have it
@robjohn nope I dont have it :D
more hints please! :)
22:57
Do they define $p(0)$?
yes p(0) = 0
hopefully, it is $0$
good.
Then, $f(0,0)=0$ and $f(0,s(n))=s(f(0,n))$
that should show that $f(0,n)=n$
okay let me process this
Yeah so far so good !
23:04
13 mins ago, by robjohn
Then rewrite $f(a,b)=s(f(p(a),p(b)))$
I still dont understand :/ sorry
are we doing a proof for each case what a can be ?
base case a = 0
and case a = s(n)
in this one we have two arguments and i dont see how they interact
You now have $f(a,0)=f(0,a)=a$
so suppose that $a-b\ge0$, then $a-b=f(a-b,0)$ and iterate $f(a,b)=s(f(p(a),p(b)))$
where $a-b=p(p(p(\cdots(a)\cdots)))$
ah genius ! :D
let me try that ! :)
23:12
That \cdots stuff looks mighty hand-wavy!
haha that subtraction thing was the break trought
I did not think of that
hope this works!
@robjohn is nothing if not clever!
so true ! :D
@TedShifrin that can be fixed with induction. Just trying to get the idea across.
though one might have to define a repeated predecessor function.
$p^n(a)=p^{n-1}(p(a))$
to make the induction non-hand-wavy
I was mostly teasing. This programming-ish stuff is far from my strengths and patience.
23:24
so to conclude ,we should argue after that rewriting that the function will reach 0 after a-b application of the function p ?
darn this seems so complicated -_-
@robjohn can you please write the full argument so i see how this type of questions work
when I iterate i get something of this form
s^(a-b) p(0) but that gives me a-b back
s^(a-b) is applying sucessor function a-b times
I dont fully see yet how that solves the problem :/
@TedShifrin your help is also much needed ! :D
@JackOhara I am writing something up.
thank you so much ! :))

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