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20:00
You certainly do not mean to make the freshman mistake of saying $f'(1) = (f(1))' = 0$.
I made the freshman mistake.....:(\
So, if you have a piecewise-defined function ...
You have to use the limit definition. The question is this: If $f$ is continuous on $[a,a+\epsilon)$ and $\lim_{x\to a^+} f'(x)$ exists, is $f$ differentiable at $a$?
I had a feeling. Well for it to be differentiable at $a$ it means $\lim_{x\to a^+} f'(x) = \lim_{x\to a^-} f'(x) = f'(a)$
writing that assumes that $f'(a)$ exists in the first place
No, what you wrote down what it means to be $C^1$ at $a$, and does assume existence at $a$, as Semiclassic said.
20:09
all "$f$ differentiable at $a$" means is that $f'(a)$ exists
i'm embaressed to admit that it's been so long since i did elementary analysis that i don't remember how to show this (or to give a counterexample)
@Semiclassic "this" means my question?
I've commented on this before. I sat in on calculus lectures by two instructors with PhDs (admittedly in applied math) who taught their beginning calculus students exactly what dc3rd said. I had to reprimand them afterward!
The point of the material in beginning calculus is to show the left-hand and right-hand difference quotient limits exist and are equal.
But do not teach students something wrong!!!
which part? setting the equivalents of the limits?
They said that $\lim_{x\to a^+} f'(x) = \lim_{x\to a^-} f'(x)$ means $f$ is differentiable at $a$.
20:14
right
Assuming continuity, it is correct, but it's a theorem beyond where the students are at the beginning of Calc I. Certainly not what you should be putting on the board as the correct approach.
all that it shows is that the limit exists, not that $f'(a)$ exists (much less that $f'$ is continuous at $a$)
So what tool do we have here that a beginning calculus student (just learning the definition of the derivative) does not have?
so what you're saying here is that the limit exists, not that the derivative is at $a$ then....
Well, you can compute left- and right-hand derivatives here with your two functions. Or you can use what I'm leading you to, which is easier because of implicit differentiation.
20:16
the point is presumably that we haven't invoked the continuity of $f$ on $[a,a+\epsilon)$ at all
Well I could use their continuity of them individually
So continuity on $[a,b]$ and differentiability on $(a,b)$ suggests ....
This looks like a good question for @leslie.
i can see why those are the relevant premises, but i'll admit i can't see what the ... is
Standard theorem "proved" in Calc I?
by intermediate value theorem the derivative exists at my point.......
20:22
Huh? Do you mean a different theorem?
oh geez pinchining thm
No, no, no.
i can see a theorem which fits those premises, but i can't see how it'd mean anything here
Are you suggesting it's meaningless?
Surely it has some value.
doesn't mean i remember how to use that value :P
20:29
I was about to write drawing a blank until the MVT popped into my head
That's propitious.
yeah, that's the one i had in mind too. but i don't see how that's useful here
the MVT assumes differentiability on an open interval. How are you using that to show differentiability?
Write down the definition of the derivative.
you made me take two minutes to google that word...
20:30
@LukasHeger this, yeah
glares at Lukas — You've become too much an algebraist!
MVT is telling you about $f'(c)$ for $c$ in $(a,b)$
I know the theorem.
I had to think about ROlle's conditions first which led me to it....
how's that going to tell you about $f'(a)$?
20:31
As I've said a few times, write down the definition of $f'(a)$.
I think Lukas might be taking the $a$ to mean the endpoint here
I mean it to be the endpoint.
not a point in the interval
See what I did there ...
lol
glad you said that cause you were about to wrack my head, with this condition violation
so I know that this point $\phi'(1)$ exists due to the MVT. THe only way I can envision calculating it is by taking the limits of one of my other functions.....I don't see how I can calculate it using implicit differentiation
MVT doesn't get used enough....always drops out of sight until it unexpectadly shows up....
20:36
Yeah, that's right. You have to compute derivatives of your two functions.
I don't get it the remarks about the MVT. If you take $a$ as an endpoint (say the left one), then how is $\lim_{x\to a^+} f'(x)$ defined?
Well, you can use L'Hôpital's rule to do this limit definition if you've forgotten MVT. I just hate that use of L'Hôpital.
Well that's not aesthitically pretty at all...
@Lukas It was a hypothesis that it exists.
That has nothing to do with $f'(a)$.
yeah
taking any differentiable, non $C^1$-function gives a counterexample
20:38
Of course.
I guess you didn't read my original question up there.
you're right I didn't
i'm still baffled
I'm hungry. Let's do waffled instead.
I'm about to snack too...that expended more brain power than I expected.
@TedShifrin I mean, how does that work if we apply MVT on the interval $[a,b]$, then what does $\lim_{x\to a^+} f'(x)$ even mean?
20:41
My interval is $[a,a+\epsilon/2]$.
And when we take the limit, $x$ is in that interval.
Is it fair to say that an arbitrary function $f(\pm x)$ is the same as some other arbitrary function $g(x)$?
in what sense is $f(\pm x)$ a function?
@Ted okay that makes sense. So I guess you're saying that one can apply MVT to the pieces of a piecewise-defined function to get the existence of the derivative at the patching point?
like, what would $f(\pm x)$ evaluated at $x=1$ mean?
@Semiclassical In a hand wavy sense :D
20:43
@TedShifrin can i borrow some of your eyes to roll
@Lukas Yup.
@Semiclassical only if you take a transcendental quantity
@user10478 if you can't be bothered to explain what you mean, then i can't be bothered to think about it
@Semiclassical It's technically a multifunction, not a function, because one input produces two outputs.
Unless $x=0$.
So rephrase your original question.
20:46
then how would you expect to have a multifunction be equivalent to a function
@LukasHeger that is actually the idea. I remeber when I took an intro to Analysis course and I bombed it, that idea was the one that stuck with me...
maybe explain the source of the problem? what you're saying really doesn't make any sense
@TedShifrin If one comes across an arbitrary multifunction $f(\pm x)$ in the course of a computation, can this be reduced to an arbitrary function $g(x)$ as one would reduce $f(2x)$ to $g(x)$?
20:50
@user10478 if $g:A \to B$ and we assume that $-A \subset A$, then you can consider $A \to B^2, a \mapsto (g(a),g(-a))$. That's a function in some sense, but probably not quite what you want
You're not asserting that $f(x)=f(-x)$, are you? These can be different values.
OK, lunchtime. Bye.
Bye @Ted
if $f(x)$ is even then $f(\pm x)=f(|x|)=g(x)$ makes sense
past that, i can't say i understand what it would mean to replace a multifunction with a function
@TedShifrin sadly no, it’s too complicated for me for now. :(
so I’ll go with my easy straight forward way.
@Semiclassical I am trying to use the similarity solution method to solve a PDE. I have a relation between scaling coefficients $p^2 r = q^2$, thus $q = \pm p \sqrt r$, and ultimately I have a solution form which has $\pm$ in its remaining argument. I wasn't sure if I could just drop the $\pm$ by calling it a different arbitrary function. I might have to finish the solution process with the positive and negative versions separately.
20:56
gross
maybe you can get rid of that ambiguity with boundary conditions?
though that's more typically in the case of deciding between two trial solutions, e.g., $e^{x}$ is not a valid solution if we want to be bounded over $[0,\infty)$
Maybe, I just wanted to try the method on a nonlinear PDE so I made up an example that has a nice solution in Mathematica. I don't have specific boundary conditions, or I could make up my own.
 
1 hour later…
22:24
0
Q: embedded submanifold of embedded submanifold in euclidean space

monoidaltransformIf $S$ is an embedded submanifold in $M$ then for each $p\in S$, there exists a chart $U$ in $M$ on which $U\cap S$ is defined by the vanishing of some coordinates. My question is, does this then imply that $U\cap S$ is an embedded submanifold of $S$ (because then it is defined by the vanishing o...

22:43
So....computing those derivatives Ted.............not very easy...
Limits of derivatives :)
I told you to skip this problem, eh?
I can compute the derivatives, but taking the limits of each of them is leading to some zeroes in the denominators.....is there a trick I should use?......I'm going to put this one aside after this....
cause it is............interesting.
mainly actually it is the $\arccos(x)$ term that is leading me into problems once I differentiate it.
the other one as I work on it looks like it is going to be just a large algebraic expression and cancellation should occur.
23:00
without knowing what you're talking about, L'hopital
Oh, you’ll need L’Hôpital or Taylor polys.
Howdy, Shmo
howdy
pracitcally any calc exercise can be solved with those 2
+ MVT, IVT
EVT
You missed MVT earlier.
send my regards next time you see him
(or her)
ah ok....good to see these things come up cause I hardly get to use them.....the tools collect dust on my mental shelf...
23:03
once you do a couple they'll be second nature
I read "something, something, derivative, something something, 0 in the denominator" -> L'hopital
In terms of how to do them....I'm perfectly fine.....it is just recognizing when they would actually be applicable is the thing
yeah so that's what I'm talking about
got it
the limit in 'mean girls' is a good one for taylor expansion.
23:22
Hello
I have a very retarded question but I feel like I am missing something here...
I am simply trying to rewrite a very simple equation, but am doing it incorrectly
are you gonna ask your question?
Yhea one sec. typing it out in latex...
Patience, Shmo.
$$V_{out} = \frac{V_s R_2}{R_1 + R_2}$$
$$V_{out} (R_1 +R_2) = V_s R_2$$
$$V_{out}R_1 + V_{out}R_2 = V_s R_2$$
$$\frac{V_{out}R_1}{V_s} = R_2 - V_{out}R_2$$
$$\frac{V_{out}R_1}{V_s} = R_2 (1-V_{out})$$
$$\frac{V_{out}R_1}{V_s} = R_2(1-V_{out})$$
$$\frac{V_{out}R_1}{V_s - V_s V_{out}} = R_2$$
Dollar signs needed …
23:27
oh that s why...
dude, wolfram
Yea! What is your goal?
Apparently this is actually supposed to give $\frac{V_{out}R_1}{V_s - V_{out}} = R_2$
As you can see I ended up with 2 V_s s inside my denominator
You lost a $V_s$ in the denominator on line 4.
I would not divide by it at that stage, anyhow.
Just group the $R_2$ terms.
oh, IBP is another good one for calc exercises. dur
23:31
@TedShifrin that s what I did by writing $R_2 (1-V_{out})$ AFAIK
going from line 3 to 4
You screwed it up there. The $1$ is wrong.
Just forget dividing there, as I already said.
Legend has it Peter Lax was asked once during an interview how he had developed such a fruitful career as a researcher. He replied: "I integrated by parts."
No doubt true. And I used the structure equations in differential geometry.
@TedShifrin oh yhea, right now the result corresponds
lax's functional analysis text is very good. it has deceptively simple proofs of things that people still include as lemmas in papers (with longer, more complicated proofs).
23:34
see this is what sometimes fcks me up. My approach should have worked as well. Because I still can t see what I did that is actually mathematically incorrect. going from $R_2 - V_{out}R_2$ to $R_2(1-V_{out})$ looks correct to me
I might have chosen a more "difficult" path but it somehow should have given the same result
assuming what I did here is correct
I’ve said it twice. You divided by $V_s$ incorrectly. Look carefully.
I need to read more of him then. We used his linear algebra text in grad school at NYU
an excellent book
i don't know why it isn't assigned more often in classes. sometimes people just aren't aware of new(er) books.
@TedShifrin hmm yhea I see now. Presumably because I moved V_{out}R_2 to the right side of the equation at the same time meaning I didn't divide that
if I would not have done this all at teh same time I would probably haeve noticed
Gotta pay attention!
you had enough variables in that system to have my dyslexia get dyscalculia
Let's be honnest here, this is high school level maths :p
I should not be making such mistakes
Yeah, awkward notation shows up in thermo and other places.
We agree, Landon.
@robjohn Assume that in addition to $f$, $g$, and $h$ being functions in $L^{2} (\mathbb{R})$, $h$ is also in $L^{1} (\mathbb{R})$. Then would it always be true that $$\int_{\mathbb{R}^{3}} f(x) g(t) e^{-ixt} h(u) e^{-ixu} \, \mathrm du \, \mathrm dt \, \mathrm dx =\int_{\mathbb{R}^{3}} f(x) g(t) e^{-ixt} h(u) e^{-ixu} \, \mathrm dx \, \mathrm du \, \mathrm dt?$$ If not, then I'm misunderstanding the issue you described earlier.
23:55
is mse a social media site?
question about the "framing/ thinking" of a question. So the question is:
$M = \{\mathbf{x} \in \mathbb{R}^4: x_1^2 + \dots + x_4^2 = 1, x_1x_2 = x_3x_4$\}

Show $M$ is a smooth $2$ dimensional manifold.

setting it up I would define a function $F(\mathbf{x})$, where $\mathbf{x} = (x_1,\dots, x_4)$

$$
F(\mathbf{x}) =
\left( \begin{array}
(x_1^2 + \dots + x_4^2 - 1 \\
x_1x_2 - x_3x_4 \\
\end{array} \right) =
\left(
\begin{array}
(0 \\
0
\end{array} \right)$$
So individually these are both implicit equations and as such level sets.
And as a system of equations I'm solving for the intersection of these level surfaces. So would I be calling my equation $F(\mathbf{x})$ and implicit equation as well? I was under the impression implicit equations had to be level sets.
I know how to do the question, but want to get the right idea behind it.
well rather I should say I'll take the derivative and do all the necessary work to determine if it is a manifold.
@RandomVariable (as before), I don't have context, but essentially you're asking whether Fubini holds. And looks like the answer is no, since $f, g$, are not $L^1$
but I don't have a counterexample
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