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00:00 - 20:0020:00 - 00:00

00:04
@TedShifrin do we need a derivative of norm $1$ at $0$ if the function is surjective?
I thought that either one was enough
maybe I am misremembering
I messed this up in my head yesterday. You need either the derivative condition or $|f(z)|=|z|$ somewhere to get what we were thinking. Surjectivity gives neither.
00:38
Anyone know a fully defined bijection between $\{n:n\in\mathbb{N},1\leq n\leq 10!\}$ and $S_{10}$?
Also, sup
WTH cares?
@Rithaniel inf
Yeah, inf.
@TedShifrin Uh, I just wanna be able to generate a random permutation with a random number generator
@XanderHenderson lmao
@Rithaniel s/random/pseudorandom/
00:48
Why not generate 10 random integers between 1 and 10?
Just give the actual permutation.
Cause that doesn't necessarily give a permutation. I could get 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10
Ah, right. Delimit the domain each time.
But I would rather relimit the domain. :(
Go sing home on the range
Well, I suppose ten 10s would be able to be called the identity permutation
00:52
(FYI: 2 oz lime juice, 2 oz pineapple simple syrup [I done made it myself], 4 oz tequila, on an empty stomach... it has been a very long day.)
Huh? I’m listing where 1,2,3,… go.
sing home on the codomain instead
(Nothing I say right now should be taken at face value. Rather, take it with a grain of salt. Or a salted rim, even!)
(WHEEEEEEE!)
It's still tricky, though, because you want to allow for something like $(2 5 7)(4 6 3 10)$
bit of a prima facie
00:53
@XanderHenderson I got some chocolate liquor I've been adding to evening coffees
@Rithaniel I've never made a chocolate liquor... I wonder how one goes about doing that.
I don't generally do alcohol, but that stuff's pretty good
It can't be as simple as [neutral alcohol of choice] + [cocoa powder] + [simple syrup].
I didn't make it. Just was gifted it and have been adding shots to coffee
i saw a bottle called muff liquor in the duty free at dublin airport
00:54
But I suppose that would work
Not tricky. 1 5 10 6 7 3 2 8 9 4
@TedShifrin See, this could be (1 5 10 6)(7 3)(2 8)(9 4) or (1 5 10)(6 7 3 2)(8 9 4)
No, you didn’t pay attention to what I said. No cycle notation.
The most primitive permutation notation.
second line of two-line notation, if you like
01:02
Right.
Ah, fair. Then that'd be (2 5 7)(3 10 4 6), assuming that the first line is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10?
I tried to encode your product of cycles above.
Yeah, I think this method works. Just generate ten numbers between 1 and 10 without replacement, then interpret that sequence as the second line in two-line notation. Works for me
There you go.
Isn’t there canned code for generating permutations?
Idk, probably. It's just that my default course whenever I need something like this is to figure it out for myself
01:37
So you have to add to the garbage?
I ain't adding to no garbage
Posting that here is garbage.
the post is garbage
then linking it is littering :P
how????????
01:41
We don’t need this here. I will trash it. Next time I’ll kick you.
I just remember yesterday Xander linked a funny question
and I thought the title was amusing
i think knuth had some algorithms for generating random permutations, or even stepping through all of them one at a time in an organized way.
can we reinstate the post?
01:45
No.
second line of two-line is a good approach.
okay zipped shut no more talking about it
@leslie That was all I could think of. But I'm no pro at this stuff.
a sometimes useful fact about cycle notation is that if you write the cycles so the first number in each cycle is the largest, and you order the cycles so the first numbers increase, you can drop the parentheses. e.g. (412)(53)(6) is unambiguously written 412536.
i'm not sure if that automatically leads to another algorithm.
reminds me of a problem i saw today (not formally stated but implied by a puzzle)
you're trying to arrange 1,2,3, ... n in some sequence. however, you know that each number can only occur at some of the positions (like, only first or fourth)
how do you determine whether such a sequence exists?
01:50
Are the rules contradictory, in other words?
Makes me think of sudokus, for whatever reason
I'm back with a question....
1
Q: Establish if True or False: Any polynomial of degree $n$ with leading coefficient $(-1)^n$ is the characteristic polynomial

dc3rdThis is an exercise from Linear Algebra by Friedberg, Insel. The question asks to determine if True or False: Any polynomial of degree $n$ with leading coefficient $(-1)^n$ is the characteristic polynomial of some linear operator. I know that it is true after scouring the internet and trying to u...

So in my review I came back upon this question and I'm working on it now. I followed the advice given and played around with the companion matrix
Hi "back with a question," I'm Dad
01:51
This was just posted again the other day. Rational canonical form is the answer.
I computed a determinant for a smaller companion matrix and got that it was the characteristic polynomial of the restriction $T_w$ of my linear operator to a cyclic subspace.
@TedShifrin this question is in chapter 5, canonical form isn't until chapter 7 :(
True/false … to make you think, not prove.
so I see the pattern, but how or what do I use as the "full" linear operator to apply some sort of induction
You could guess the form of a companion matrix.
@TedShifrin ah.....so I shouldn't stress too much over it because actually I do end up having to prove it in a later question in this section
01:54
Just do one giant one or else factor the polynomial.
Until the suggestion I had never heard of the companion matrix, but I see how it fits in ....even if not fully yet. Ok...well in terms of true or false it is true. I'll work through the details when I come up to them gradually.
Thanks for the help....I hadn't realized how much I burnt out in the second half of the year until I saw how long ago that question I posted was......well I'm refreshed now.
Should've been done Insel by now.......such is life...shrug
@Rithaniel dad or papi?
I am not cognizant of a difference
Hey, @leslie @robjohn … Let’s go do some “legitimate political discourse”!
how many torches should i bring?
All aboard the Freedom Convoy.....
02:09
How ‘bout Xander’s cannons?
i also drank about a gallon of tea today, so i may need to expel some discourse on or in somebody's desk. you know, the way the founders debated the constitution.
tea is my study drink of choice...I'm quite the tea aficionado
just chill out drink of choice rather....I'll have tea with everything. Except going to the gym
I love Earl Grey.
But not with food.
yeah, it's great on its own.
yea. only food that gets tea as an accompanyment is dessert....
is accompanyment even a word?...should be....
02:16
Y -> i
we had some bergamots once and we zested them and used it on vanilla ice cream. sorta earl greyish.
Never seen one :(
02:38
If $V$ is a finite dimensional vector space over a field $F$ then $V$ is a f.g. torsion module over pid $F[x]$ in some sense.
In some sense? Pick a linear map.
 
1 hour later…
04:11
@robjohn If $f$ and $g$ are square-integrable functions on $\mathbb{R}$, is it true that $$\int_{\mathbb{R}^{2}} f(x) g(t) e^{-ixt} \, \mathrm dt \, \mathrm dx = \int_{\mathbb{R}^{2}} f(x) g(t) e^{-ixt} \, \mathrm dx \, \mathrm dt?$$ I vaguely remember seeing this stated somewhere, but I don't remember where.
Looks fine with Fubini-Tonelli. What’s the issue?
04:39
The conditions don't guarantee that Fubini's theorem is satisfied. Take, for example, $f(x) = \frac{\sin x}{x}$ and $g(t) = \frac{1}{t} \boldsymbol{1}_{[1,\infty)}(t)$.
Ah, cuz $f(x)$ is not in $L^2(\Bbb R^2)$.
Suspicious, then.
Unless this is somehow a stationary phase phenomenon.
@robjohn is indeed needed.
05:37
Is the notion of spectrum in linear algebra somehow related to the notion of prime spectrum in commutative algebra?
Just a coincidence. like normal
05:53
@RandomVariable That seems to be true.
This is just Plancherel
$$\int_{\mathbb{R}}f(x)\hat g(x)\,\mathrm{d}x=\int_{\mathbb{R}}\hat f(t)g(t)\,\mathrm{d}t$$
$f\in L^2\iff\hat f\in L^2$ (isometry)
@robjohn You're right. I don't know how I didn't notice that.
but you are correct, it is not Fubini
06:32
without the $e^{-ixt}$, the integrals don't even converge since $\int_{\mathbb{R}}f(x)\,\mathrm{d}x$ may not converge for $f\in L^2$
does there exist (Z/1Z)*?
how to find partition of a number $n$?
@Koro All numbers are in the same equivalence class so not too exciting.
p(1) is 1, p(2)=2 (2=2, 2=1+1), p(3)=3, (3=3,3=2+1,3=1+1+1) etc.
oeis.org/A000041 may have references. there are some obvious recursion relations but i don't think they would be amenable to hand calculation.
they count conjugacy classes in S_n, to relate to one of your earlier questions :)
@leslietownes thanks, I'll take a look at that.
06:46
@RandomVariable Plancherel often has a ${1 \over 2 \pi}$ scaling depending on how you define the measures.
or even sometimes a sqrt(2pi).
Background: I want to find number of non-isomorphic abelian groups of order n.
ok, so you get it from partitions for prime powers. and it's multiplicative.
06:59
@copper.hat are you talking about (Z/1Z)*?
Why I ask is: U(1) if exists should consist of numbers that are co-prime to 1.
So I think that (Z/1Z)* ={1}
shut yo mouth!
just talkin bout (Z/1Z)*
koro this gets into your choice of ring axioms. some people require that 1 not be 0.
rng surely>
whatever (Z/Z)* is it is an uninteresting object. Z/Z has one element. if you decide to allow that thing to be invertible then yes it is its own group of units. hooray for the zero ring.
used to be engineers got themselves twisted in a knot over positive or negative logic. but they sorted that out. mathematicians can't even decide if its rng or ring.
rings have 1. this isn't debatable. this isn't "natural numbers" all over again.
i will die on this hill.
07:04
because I saw a result that said: U(n) is cyclic only when n=2,2^2, p^r, 2p^r, where p is prime >2. I wondered why n=1 was sidelined.
So either 1 was absorbed in p^k, when k=0
koro it is a trivial case. by some definitions Z/Z is not even a ring. don't worry about it.
How about zero ring?
I see. It is singleton so upto us to allow that to be a group or not.
rings do look like zeros
Thanks Leslie :).
07:06
i give you permission not to worry about this. :D
i wear a ring. it took me about six months to get used to wearing it. i still notice it when i pick up something and hear it clink against glass or metal.
not worrying about it anymore :).
in cardano's memoirs, at one point he is bragging about his health, and he says, i still wear the same rings. this was a measure of health, that age 70 or whatever he had not wasted away.
my wedding ring is some kind of chromium alloy. it was brushed to not be shiny, and countless interactions with metal have made it even less shiny. i'm beginning to think i may not be able to return it to the store and get my $100 back.
how about gina carano's memoires?
i haven't read them. her entertainment career seems to have a downward trajectory.
cardano's memoirs are a hoot. he brags about all of the stuff he has, like a rapper, almost. and gives you TMI about his health issues.
her movie haywire was entertaining in a lightweight way
07:18
@leslietownes more like a heaviside function....
maybe bump function might be more apt....
a bit on the heavyside
07:32
@leslietownes not if you define $\hat f(\xi)=\int_{\mathbb{R}}f(x)e^{-2\pi ix\xi}\,\mathrm{d}x$
@copper.hat extremely bumpy
@copper.hat yeah, I usually define the FT as I mention above. Much more convenient in most cases
that's how my harmonic analysis prof did it.
it is the One True fourier transform.
07:51
I think so, but physicists like the way you can differentiate the one without the $2\pi$
You still have $i$s to contend with, however, so why worry about the $2\pi$?
my therapist said the same thing. i still have Is to contend with.
@robjohn How would you use Plancherel's theorem to argue that $$\int_{0}^{\infty} \int_{0}^{1} \frac{\sin (x)}{x} \frac{\sin(xt)}{t} \, \mathrm dt \, \mathrm dx = \int_{0}^{1} \int_{0}^{\infty} \frac{\sin (x)}{x} \frac{\sin(xt)}{t} \, \mathrm dx \, \mathrm dt? $$ The function $\frac{1}{t} \boldsymbol{1}_{[0,1]}(t)$ is not square-integrable on $\mathbb{R}$.
Could the theorem be modified to state that if $f(x)$ and $g(t)\sin(xt)$ are square-integrable on $\mathbb{R}$, then $$\int_{\mathbb{R}^{2}} f(x) g(t) \sin(xt) \, \mathrm dt \, \mathrm dx = \int_{\mathbb{R}^{2}}f(x) g(t) \sin(xt) \, \mathrm dx \, \mathrm dt?$$
maybe it's that 2pi in the mirror that i don't like.
08:09
is there any way to find all non-isomorphic groups of an order n?
the group doesn't have to be abelian.
I don't know how you find so quick.
 
2 hours later…
10:36
Why is A not the slope in Ax + By = C ?
An equation of L is y - y_1 = m(x - x_1)
or mx - y = mx_1 - y_1
so A = m, B = -1, C = mx_1 - y_1
Doesn't A = m mean A is the slope?
11:22
?
$m = -\frac{A}{B}$ since $$BY = C - Ax, y = \frac{C}{B} - \frac{Ax}{B}$$
Coefficient of $x$ is $-\frac{A}{B}$
Hence the value of m
@user2236
that formula is for a line of the form $y = mx + c$
Not $Ax + By = C$
y - y_1 = m(x - x_1)
or mx - y = mx_1 - y_1
...Read the post linked above.
ok, thnx
I was just wondering what I'm doing wrong
The post should clear your doubts.
Watch this if you have more doubts
11:47
Also note if I take A = m and B = -1 and sub into slope = -A/B
I get slope = -A/B = -( m/(-1)) = m
12:02
@leslietownes please comment^
12:29
@Koro oeis is a site for all kinds of sequences
I'm still stuck at this: if $T:E\to F$ is a continuous surjective linear map between Banach spaces, can we always find a continuous linear map $T':F\to E$ such that $T \circ T' = \text{Id}_F$?
Note that we can always pick such continuous, but not necessarily linear map by Micheal selection theorem
13:06
@Rithaniel The standard algorithm is the Fisher–Yates shuffle. It's essentially building the permutation from its index (aka rank).
On a related note, if you want to iterate through all permutations lexicographically, see the algorithm of Narayana Pandita, which efficiently handles duplicate items. There are various other permutation ranking & unranking algorithms which are a little more efficient, although they generally aren't lexicographic.
@Koro If you're still interested in generating & counting partitions & compositions, I've got some useful links here: math.stackexchange.com/a/1287927/207316
13:25
@user2236 What's the slope when B=0?
. o O ( is it even a function )
Undefined, or no slope @PM2Ring
@user2236 Right. So if you need to handle vertical lines, you can't use the y = mx + b form of the line, you need to use the Ax + By + C form.
@user2236 So does that make it a horizontal or vertical line?
13:41
Which becomes $x=-\frac CA$ (finally got it right)
@mohan10216 vertical
VLC
VLC
Does anybody know how to bound the funtion $|\frac{sin(ay)}{y}|$ with a function whose integral converges from - infty to infty ?
13:51
the comparison is between Ax + By = C , B is not equal to 0 and the point-slope form: y - y_1 = m(x - x_1)
 
1 hour later…
15:02
@VLC no one does
15:20
@robjohn Wikipedia seems to state that $f$ and $g$ need to be in both $L^{1}(\mathbb{R})$ and $L^{2}(\mathbb{R})$ for Plancherel's theorem, but other sources state can it be extended to functions only in $L^{2}(\mathbb{R}) $.
@RandomVariable any function in $L^2[-n,n]$ is in $L^1[-n,n]$, so usually they take the limit
There are other ways to mollify things, but that is the simplest.
AFK BBL
@robjohn I think that's the proof I remember seeing.
VLC
VLC
15:44
@robjohn because isn't it so that if the integral converges, then there exists some $h(x)$ that bounds the inner function and that the integral of $h(x)$ also converges. Because $\int_0^{\infty}|\frac{sin(ay)}{y}| = \pi$
@RandomVariable So the integral surely converges, but how to find such h(x), or if we can't find it why is that so ?
16:05
Hiya
VLC
VLC
16:19
Is it possible to solve $\lim_{a\rightarrow \infty}(\sqrt{a}\pi \sqrt{2}+c) = 0$, for $c\neq -\sqrt{a}\pi \sqrt{2}$ ?
16:39
@Jakobian i know that but i haven't used it much.
@PM2Ring thanks for the link. :)
I found $P(n+1)=\sum_{r=0}^n\binom{n}{r}P(r)$, where P(r)= number of partitions of a set with r elements. P(0):=1, P(1):=1, P(2):=2.
But this seems wrong as P(3) comes out to be 1+2+2=5. Why does 3 have 5 numbers of partitions? 3=3,3=1+2, 3=2+1,3=1+1+1
17:02
maybe it's a shifted version of the sequence? P(4) is 5. 4, 3+1, 2+2, 2+1+1, 1+1+1+1
the usual 'partition' notion does not take order into account, so 2+1 and 1+2 would be the same partition of 3
with this method: P(5) comes out to be 15.
I agree with that notion partition notion (with monotonic order).
that formula is broken somehow.
Background is like this: number of equivalence relations on a set with r elements is P(r).
it ought to go 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 15, 22, 30
@VLC If $a>0$, the integral $\int_{0}^{\infty} \frac{\sin (ay)}{y} \, \mathrm dy$ converges to $\pi$, but it does not converge absolutely. See this question.
I meant $\frac{\pi}{2}$.
17:14
two cats are making noise outside. :(
I got this. P(r) is no. of equivalence relations on a set with r elements.
partitions for 3 are: 3 viz. 3, 2+1, 1+1+1.
3: there is one way to place 3 elements in it.
2+1: (3.2)/2=3 ways.
1+1+1: 1
So total is: 1+3+1=5
But the name is confusing though.
OEIS is like the cheat codes for a ton of enumerative math
whenever you find a sequence that isn't in OEIS, the best thing to do is back away slowly, don't make eye contact. if you have a jacket, hold it up so you look big and the sequence is less likely to attack
OEIS is nice :).
17:56
Hi. I have the limit $\displaystyle \lim_{x\to\infty}\frac{-3x^4+x^3+x}{-2x^3+x+1}$. Dividing everything by $x^4$ yields me $\displaystyle \lim_{x\to\infty}\frac{-3+\frac{1}{x}+\frac{1}{x^3}}{\frac{-2}{x}+\frac{1}{x^3}+\frac{1}{x^4}}$. This last limit goes to $-3/0$ which is $-\infty$. But clearly the limit is $+\infty$. Where did I mess this up?
the rule works when the denominator has non zero limit @Odestheory12.
Oh I see, its undefined the way I did it.
Thanks.
@koro Here's a little Sage program that prints partition numbers. I think it uses Pari to do the computation, so it's quite fast. If you want to code it yourself, I recommend using generalized pentagonal numbers, as explained on oeis.
note that the wrong application of limit rules results in funny results: for x>0, $x=\frac{x^2}x=\frac{-x^2}{-x}=\frac{-1}{-\frac 1x}$ and now do what you did with the limit in your question. @Odestheory12
@PM2Ring For now, I require partitions of n for small n only by hand calculation so not a problem :).
@PM2Ring thanks :)
18:20
@Koro Ah, ok. Producing partitions (and compositions) by hand is a good exercise. It helps you understand how the algorithms work. :) FWIW, here's some plain Python that generates partitions of a fixed size. stackoverflow.com/a/40220262/4014959
i think knuth had a section on this too. may be misremembering.
knuth's TAOCP is one of the best series of books ever.
I have those and Concrete Mathematics. Wonderful books.
It's monumental.
And of course Knuth took time off from revising / extending TAOCP to invent Tex so that he could ensure that his books got decent typesetting.
oh, i forgot. concrete mathematics is really good.
@Odestheory12 The numerator is asymptotically $-3x^4$ and the denominator is asymptotically $-2x^3$, so the ratio is asymptotically $\frac32x$
18:34
Let's not forget the typo bounty he was offering.
@Odestheory12 besides $-3/0$ does not go to $-\infty$
i heard through the grapevine that knuth is not well although i do not know the reliability of this information. he is basically gauss in my book. his work influences almost everything.
Hey, @Ted! how's the wind down there?
@robjohn If $f(x)$ and $g(t)$ are real-valued functions, can Plancherel's theorem be modified to state that if $f(x)$ and $\color{red}{g(t) \sin(xt)}$ are in $L^{2}(\mathbb{R})$, then $$\int_{\mathbb{R}^{2}} f(x) g(t) \sin(xt) \, \mathrm dt \mathrm \, dx = \int_{\mathbb{R}^{2}} f(x) g(t) \sin(xt) \, \mathrm dx \mathrm \, dt?$$ This would be useful in situations where $g(t)$ by itself is not square integrable due to a non-integrable singularity at $t=0$. I'm come across this a few times.
@leslietownes I taught some Concrete Math courses at UCLA, and I drew a lot from CM.
18:37
@robjohn Oh, duh. :)
@robjohn No wind.
random i have been looking for my euclidean harmonic analysis notes on the basis of this. perplexingly it is the one class (!) that is not in the box of notes from my grad era. i don't know where they could be.
@PM2Ring thanks :).
Aren't you going to blame the USPS for that, too?
i'm very sure i had these notes. they wouldn't not have been in that box. so the fault is mine.
How unlawyerly of you to assume responsibility!
Paging munchkin! Pounce whilst the iron is hot!
18:40
in the box that i do have, my notes on undergrad differential geometry are 1/3 incomplete. a kid was sick for two weeks and asked for my notes and never returned them. i should track him down.
(and kill him)
(I can read between the lines)
@RandomVariable Can't we modify things on $[-1,1]$ so that $g(x)=g_s(x)+g_n(x)$ where $g_s$ is singular but supported in $[-1,1]$ and $g_n(x)\in L^2$?
xander: i have to do it.
I am not sure, but I think that might be a possibility.
there was a question on math.se within the last six months that was easily dealt with via a result on 'almost orthogonality' and i discovered the loss of my notes when i went to look up its precise statement, which of course i had forgotten.
18:44
I'm not sure I've ever heard of such things.
if you have a sum of operators O_j and O_i O_j is small if nonzero for distinct i, j then you can estimate the norm or do other things with the sum that otherwise would not be permissible.
weirdly i think i understand a lot of what i studied better now, because i have forgotten the details. i remember the basic moves.
@RandomVariable at the same time, I am trying to look for possible counterexamples, just so I don't waste too much time in case it is not true.
@leslietownes This is what a lot of pseudodifferential operators is about.
i really wish i had my notes on this stuff. the instructor had a draft book (unpublished as of 20 years later) which contained refinements of the stuff in the literature. also lost.
@robjohn What about just the case $g(t)= \frac{1}{t} \boldsymbol{1}_{[0,1]}(t) $?
@RandomVariable Are the integrals not equal in that case?
18:53
Knuth has an interesting sense of humour. His first publication was in Mad magazine. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potrzebie#System_of_measurement
@robjohn They seem to be always equal in that case.
@RandomVariable so that is not a counter-example
@PM2Ring Wow!
@robjohn I was asking if it could be proven for that one case.
The Knuth XKCD comic is number 163, the largest Heegner number. I've sometimes wondered if that's a coincidence, or if Randall intentionally gave Knuth an interesting number.
19:02
i love the depiction of those monitors. that's how you know it's early xkcd.
Back in the good old days, when monitors bathed us in a gentle flux of x-rays.
the simpsons episode where the shadow of young homer is burned into the floor.
The difference between being a manifold and not is that for a manifold, in the nbhd of every point in the set there exists some way of being able to represent that nbhd as a $\mathcal{C}^1$ function?
I think only the monitor for my very first computer, a 1988 Mac II, looked sorta like that.
19:06
@dc3rd How do you represent a neighborhood as a function?
in comparison that is not a manifold because of the "trouble" point.
Yes, that is a trouble point, but sometimes a trouble point is not really bad. Most of the time it is. But what's the correct statement in your question?
it's my language I have to watch out for with what I asked. I should say the surface of the nbhd of the point.
"as the graph of a $\mathcal{C}^1$ function"
19:11
ok, closer
defined on what domain and with what codomain?
@TedShifrin I had some monster monitors when I worked for Apple. I had a 24" monitor that was at least as deep as it was wide.
Yes, I think mine was that.
i've been zapped with many rays. the kids don't know how good they have it.
I had 4 x-ray sources disguised as monitors attached to my computer there. One for QuickMail, one for display of the output, one for code and one for debugging.
well if we say our manifold is of dimension $k$ for concreteness, then domain is of $\mathbb{R}^k$ and codomain $\mathbb{R}^{n-k}$. Where our implicit equation $F$ would've been $F:\mathbb{R}^n \to \mathbb{R}^m$
19:14
I only had two displays at one point in my life ... when I went from external monitor to iMac and kept the external monitor. It was extremely helpful for editing my books.
i have two displays in an office i have not visited since march 2020.
@dc3rd The important point is that the $\Bbb R^k$ is one of the standard coordinate $k$-planes, not a random $k$-dimensional space. Also, domain is only open set blah blah blah, of course.
@leslietownes Bathe it in Lysol before re-entering.
@robjohn the office or the displays?
both
19:15
i honestly think the pandemic is the only reason i haven't been fired
in more advanced thinking can it be a random $k$ dimensional space or do we restrict it to the coordinate planes?
I could see it being an uncecssary complicated mess not restricting it to that
Given a non constant continuous function $f:[0,1]\to [0,1]$ with the property that $fof=f$, I want to show that the set $S=\{x\in [0,1]: f(x)=x\}$ is an interval.
dc3rd: ?? subspaces generallly need not be coordinate dictated.
No, the sophisticated answer is the one you already have. If you do some searching on MSE, you'll see that I've used that as an answer for half a dozen questions.
It's worth understanding the proofs when you get to section 6.3.
It is clear that $S$ is non empty. For, $f(f(x))=f(x)$ for every x so $f(x)\in S$ for every x.
nvm, I think I got it now.
19:18
\circ @Koro
I've never seen that result before (that I can remember).
That's true too I shouldn't get bogged down by this cause this was only an appetizer for the main dish. I've done the questions, but I'm revisitnig them all since I'm a bit fresher and it is clearer thank god ( or your deity(s) of choice if you have one or some))
@TedShifrin is this for dc3rd?
No, that was to you (since I'd just pinged you).
Oh, what's that \circ?
The stuff I'm discussing with dc3rd is in my book, so I've obviously seen it.
That's how you do composition, silly.
19:21
Ohh $f\circ f$
:)
How do you know there are no other points of $S$?
it's clear that range f =[min f,max f] is in S.
I was thinking of showing $S\setminus [\min f, \max f]$ as empty.
But that's trivial. For if, the set is non empty then let's some take some c in it.
Then $f(c)=c$ would mean that c is in range f.
Contradiction!
No need to introduce a contradiction. Just make the direct observation.
19:28
This establishes in toto that $S=[\min f, \max f]$
Learn to avoid unnecessary proofs by contradiction.
I love contradiction :).
thinking of direct conclusion.
That should be possible.
Amateurs love proof by contradiction, even though it's unnecessarily clumsy.
Proof by contradiction can be useful for developing intuition, but usually the contradiction is totally unnecessary. Here's one of my standard examples of this: Suppose $x\cdot y = 0$ for all $y\in\Bbb R^n$. Prove $x=0$.
put y=x.
Right.
19:32
I'm developing intuition.
I assigned this in the first assignment every time I taught my multivariable math class and linear algebra. Students almost always did it by contradiction.
Usually I try to do other ways also: if I get through contradiction, I try to do direct proof and also by contrapositive.
In the case of your $f\circ f$ thing, you can start by observing that $S\subset\text{im}(f)$.
but sometimes things don't look so clear at first but eventually they do.
Right. I don't disagree.
19:35
@TedShifrin that's precisely what I thought and at that time, in order to present it here to you, contradiction seemed like the best/easiest way for communication.
Hello, if $f: [0,1]\to [0,1]$ is increasing and consider $A=\{x\in [0,1], f(x)\geq x\}$ I know that A is not empty and bonded from above by 1 how to prove that sup(A) is in [0,1]?
On that I disagree.
for communication or should I say to better express my thoughts.
@Vrouvrou What??? $A\subset [0,1]$. Where else should $\sup A$ be?
anyways, the question is solved now. :)
19:37
@Koro The point is to develop good style as a mathematical writer, too.
yes, I'm learning that too. :)
@TedShifrin you are right je ne me suis pas concentré thank you
Ça va, @Vrouvrou.
Was the chat question I pointed to not worthy of comment? @leslietownes
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