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00:00
It's really just a vector space isomorphism if you want to generalize
$k^{n\times n} \simeq k^{n^2}$ but a natural one that a human would do in software
THat is packing / unpacking are the isom and inverse
It's not however a ring isom lol
Unless you redefine the mult for the vectors of course
@Semiclassical How is this a column vector? It’s just a different tensor of rank 2.
kronecker product
The dimension of the tensor space is the multiplication of the dimension of the two vs
00:04
Still a tensor, no?
Yes a tensor product I'm not sure about your nomenclature :)
You’re just using fancy words for an isomorphism in your head.
$$e_1 e_2^\top = \begin{pmatrix} 0 & 1 \\ 0 & 0\end{pmatrix}\mapsto e_1\otimes e_2 = \begin{pmatrix} 0 \\ 1 \\ 0 \\ 0 \end{pmatrix}$$
No, the last thing is not equals.
according to the definition of kronecker product it certainly is
00:07
That’s not the LHS. It is a 2-tensor.
$\otimes$ is perfectly common as notation for Kronecker product
interesting, a Mexican standoff is happening right now
who is going to draw first
Not to me.
i mean, i literally can't find any other notation for kronecker product, so
By draw I mean whip out the commutative diagram drawing lol
00:09
It is a particular choice of isomorphism. Non-canonical, I suppose.
$k$-vector space isomorphism to be precise
It's canonical for for loops in code
But mathematically it's arbitrary :D
With arrays in CS, who decides if we list rows or list columns?
it's also what i'm familiar with for writing out tensor products in physics, e.g. when doing angular momentum coupling
00:11
The low-level machine code decides, whatever way the computer runs fastest with
I mean when looping over a matrix, if I understood correctly
One way is slower than the other usually
It’s a choice of iso. Physicists don’t pay attention.
sure, but it's the standard choice and we want to have matrices.
In CS it's a caching issue, if you jump memory unecessarily can cause a cach miss or speed issue
and whenever i've seen Kronekcer product defined, it's with that notation
Shrug.
I am out.
00:15
@Semiclassical if you plant to enter this into a computer program, find out the language, then match the Multi-dim array ordering with your math notation
nah. had some more formal stuff on the brain
Oh, then whatever way comes naturally to you
Interestingly, the brain likes this packed row or column isomorphism too
Because easy to remember
than some random ordering
We're software too maybe, but that's for another chat room :X
@Semiclassical what book or document do you study atm?
have this on the brain: arxiv.org/abs/0905.3010
though i've yet to really sit down to go through it
00:27
That's interesting, saved it to library. Should be called though Categories for categorists though, because not much physics :)
It's nice though because it applies to all maths
@Semiclassical are you interested in Topos Theory at all?
not in the slightest
Seems similar to what you're studying
i'm specifically interested in how people use category theory to apparently make quantum circuit diagrams into something more powerful
Do you know about Quantomatic? A drawing tool that does this math for you / helps you understand it
Developed by researchers in the string diagram field
heard of it, don't know about it specifically
right
i mean, mostly what i want to understand is the math behind something like that
Same here. The first thing you want to derive is how natural transformations are represented as string diagrams, then show how adjoint unit / counit form a diagram where unfolding the string yields identity, then from there on it gets even more interesting. But the unfolding the string is nice, it's a simpler proof of unit/counit properties
well, that may be the first thing
but the zeroth thing is actually understanding the words you used :P
Let me link you to a nicer book for the purpose of above paragraph, and can be used in conjunction with your book or as a primer
i've got categories for the working mathematician, btw
it's on my shelf
Nice, same here, got a hardcopy
haven't made it very far in it though
mine's paperback
yeah, seems a bit dense
Well, sorry to hear that :P
about it being paperback
lol, i got it for free
so works for me
00:35
@Semiclassical would you like a study partner in this area?
maybe, but it's not exactly a high priority right now
K, ping me if so later on. I threw some words out there, but I still am new to adjoints
i'll let you know if i start wading into it, though
@Semiclassical what is the most basic definition of adjoint (quiz - no googling)
could not tell you
the bit in the Coecke paper i linked that i did find suggestive of "stuff i know that i don't know" is section 2.4 on page 31
$\text{Hom}_C(F(A), B) \simeq \text{Hom}_D(A, G(B))$ where $F, G$ are two functors $F: D\to C$, $G : C \to D$, ie. for all $A \in D, B \in C$
"While the real world categories are indeed strict monoidal categories, their corresponding models typically aren’t"
or something like that, but the mnemonic is the hom isom line
oof
and then use the failure of set-theoretic models to work as categories (b/c you have isomorphisms instead of equations) to motivate natural transformations
00:42
From that natural (natural transformation ie!) isomorphism (it's really a family of isomorphism maps), you can let $B = F(A)$ etc. That gives you $\text{id}_{F(A)} \in \text{Hom}_C(F(A), F(A))$ and from there you can derive the unit of the adjunction
2
Q: Proving using definition that $f=(f_1,f_2,...,f_m)$ is differentiable at $c$ iff $f_i$'s are differentiable at $c$.

KoroI want to prove the following statement: Suppose that $S$ is a non-empty subset of $\mathbb R^n$. Suppose that $f:S\to \mathbb R^m$ is differentiable at an interior point $c$ of $S$. Suppose that $f=(f_1,...,f_m)$, where $f_i:S\to \mathbb R$ for every $i\in \{1,2,...,m\}$. Then $f$ is differentia...

Can anyone please take a look at this proof of mine and let me know if something is wrong in it? Thanks.
The projection maps are differentiable, right?
Then aren't compositions differentiable when the two args of the composition are?
That gives one direction
@Koro I upvoted shearly for the amount of $\LaTeX$ you had to write :D
Thanks. But I think that if a post gets lengthy, it is viewed less.
My post got lengthy but is actually not. The expressions are lengthy not the main post.
My comment above I see now is not about what you're trying to prove, but a it would be one dir of a proof of your differientiable definition
It has only two parts. To prove statement A holds iff statement B holds.
The post contains: ($Rightarrow$) that is, proof for statement A $\implies $ statement B
and then proof for converse.
@PenAndPaperMathematics I think I haven't been introduced to these so far in multivariable calculus.
00:54
Ted or Leslie would be able to help here.
They're always on about manifolds, topology, & differential stuff :P
But I think that using projection is a good idea. I think I have done this before somewhere. So you mean defining a function like $f\mapsto f_1$ etc.?
Yes
Those are naturally differentiable I think.. not 100% sure though
Thanks a lot :). I can see the problem now from a different perspective. :)
For the other direction you may need more details like you were already doing
Linear maps are smooth, eh?
00:59
Specifically projections
onto components
My statement is the right way to understand your case.
But we need the chain rule, of course.
I want to quickly say that if $f:S\to R$ is differentiable at c in S, where S is an open set and f attains maxima (local) at c, then $f'(c)=0$.
I say: suppose that $f'(c)\ne 0$ then there is an $e_k$ (standard unit vector) such that $\nabla f(c). e_k\ne 0$.
$f(c+he_k)-f(c)=h\nabla f(c).e_k+o(h)\leq 0$ (because LHS is always negative) in a small neighborhood of $c$). Sign of RHS depends only on the first term. If $\nabla f(c).e_k$ is positive then positive $h$ gives contradiction and if negative then negative h gives contradiction. So the only posibility is the gradient term must be zero.
01:37
@Koro Why the sign of the RHS depends only on the first term? :P
Because o(h) is super small.
You can use $\epsilon,\delta$ also.
02:17
@Koro You can just use the one-variable result to conclude directly that every directional derivative must be $0$.
I found that naming a theorem makes that theorem easier to remember
hey everybody, meet linda. you may know her as the multivariable chain rule
02:31
That is not a standard name, in this case, love. So, no.
@TedShifrin You mean linda's been lying to me? Next you'll tell me that she's not 18.
I know nothing of Linda, and rarely of Fermat.
Bob
Bob
Who is Linda?
this is an awful way to find out how many people have muted me
Bob
Bob
I have not
one of the things I have heard is that with Covid US high school students are not learning math
that is, there math skills are not where they should be
bye
03:08
yeah, nobody is learning anything
95% are just cyberbullying each other online and the rest, i.e. the mathematicians, teachers, engineers, etc. of tomorrow, are learning math from ted's viral tiktok dances
03:25
LOL
I just was invited to referee an article. I declined to do so but wrote pointed comments explaining why they should reject.
haha
how very ted of you
I’m such a good retired citizen.
i was asked to referee something a year or two out and i may have sent them a picture of a cat's butt
Well, the editor certainly knows Ted.
A cat’s butt. Did you ask Olivia for permission?
they're lucky they didn't get claws
03:45
Hi all
went to moe's books in search of number inspiration. found none.
unfortunately caffe med is replaced by 'sojo ramen'.
04:03
hi balarka.
copper, sorry to hear it. except about caffe med, that place had a spooky edge even when it was there.
i was firmly in the bulldoze people's park and put in a jamba juice camp in the late 90s. and i think they are actually doing that now.
@TedShifrin yes of course.
its berkeley, inc now.
a place devoid of character (except for moe's)
i miss it anyway.
04:19
did i tell you guys i understood why antimatter exists
sigh......back to the cold and snow I have returned..... :(
Because we’re antihuman, balarka.
That's me, not the rest of you.
(Does that make me antiantihuman?)
what about unclematter?
good pun
04:22
Nephew you mind.
2
i'm going to frame Balarka's line
But the fact that spin-1/2 fermions like positrons exists has to do with the spinor representation $\mathrm{Spin}(2n) \to U(2^n)$ decomposing into two irreducible representations of equal dimension each.
One of them is "electron", the other of them is "positron"
suddenly the fog cleared
You're welcome
04:25
you wanna use \operatorname{Spin} or whatever the new syntax is for that. it won't space right as mathrm. at least if characters might be placed in front of it. if that ever happens.
Huh, $\mathrm{Spin}$, $\operatorname{Spin}$
I don't see a difference
the difference is how things are spaced relative to it.
latex purists $a \mod b$
Yeah I write $\mathrm{Spin}^{\Bbb C}(n)$ all the time. Let's see $\operatorname{Spin}^{\Bbb C}(n)$
let's try one (completely made up example more appropriate to linear algebra stuff like ker or codim). $2 \mathrm{Spin}$, $2 \operatorname{Spin}$.
04:26
Oh on the other side
I don't do that anyway
$a \text{ mod } b$
checkmate
foiled again by antimatter.
Balarka, what are you studying these days?
I am trying to learn Seiberg-Witten theory, but it's a long walk from where I am.
Other than that I am reading Mark Fisher's "Ghosts of My Life: Writings on Depression, Hauntology and Lost Futures"
That's pretty much it
You can follow along in my efforts to learn SW theory here and laugh at me for misunderstanding so many things.
04:31
No need for self-flagellation!
@BalarkaSen I don't think I have ever heard the name of this theory before so I don't think I'll be able to follow it right now :(.
But it looks like relativity theory.
So far I have been able to understand the definition of the Dirac operator, which is more like relativistic quantum mechanics
And writings on depression, what's that all about? :D
It's a book on handpicked examples of art, culture, history and politics seen through the lens of "hauntology"
you seem to be way ahead of your time. :)
04:40
The way you say it only bodes ill of my lifespan!
Just kidding.
But if you're into popular music and know a lot about history of popular music I highly recommend the book.
Or if you're into lefty politics and looking for a narrative that coherently answers why there's a "longing for old times" or why there's an "anxiety in the air" that you might often feel about modern technological world.
Balarka, why TIFR and not ISI Kolkata? I come from engineering background and I have heard of ISI Kolkata, not so much about TIFR.
I did my undergraduation from ISI Bangalore, actually.
Ah :)
Hey guys I don't know if this is a stupid question, but I can't see an error in my work right now.

So let $f(x)$ be a differentiable function in $[a, b]$, and let's subdivide the interval using the following equally spaced points $\nu_0 = a, \nu_1, \nu_2, \cdots, \nu_n = b$. This means that as $n \to \infty$ then the length of the sub-intervals approaches $0$. Furthermore, assume that $f^{'}(x) < M$ for $x\in[a,b]$.

Focusing on the sub-interval $[\nu_{n-1}, \nu_n]$, we can write the following expression using the mean value theorem:
ISI Kolkata is famous for statistics, but nowadays it's pretty good at math as well.
04:55
david: i see some garbage beginning on the first RHS of the set of displayed equations at "we obtain..."
each of the xi_1, ..., xi_n depends on n
not just the one with the n on it
Balarka: I didn't know about ISI Kolkata/Bangalore till my class 12. I knew only of IITs. Had I known, I would have tried to get admission in one of those. :) I ended up taking engineering after class 12. :)
there's no distributing the limit beyond that point. perhaps clearer notation would make it clearer.
Ah ok @Koro
The transition from high school to college is kind of messed up in India
messed up how? at a high level. i ask only out of idle interest.
because almost 90% of students opt for an engineering or medical degree after passing out of high school
04:59
I took up a job after undergraduation from my college. I don't quite like the job and want to do masters in maths :)
I think in US, class 12 is also called highschool. I don't know.
@BalarkaSen I think you're right.
yes, most US systems have something called 12th grade which is the last year of high school.
in canada they invented 'grade 13' and they can't be trusted for at least that reason.
i figured out why the cat hangs out in my daughter's bedroom at night. we put her to bed, she immediately turns on the light and then begins throwing toys for the cat to chase. it went on for 20 minutes.
@Koro i know someone in tifr who quit midway through their masters, did a job for quite a few years, and now recently joined the phd program in math again
tomorrow morning is the first day back in day care for 2 weeks. she won't like getting up "early."
one reason is they students are not aware of various options available after highschool. I didn't have access to internet till my class 12 (year 2014) and I didn't know about ISI Kolkata/Bangalore etc. I knew only of IITs and that's because after the end of exercises in some books there was a special section: Questions from varous entrance exams.
And I solved those questions and got stuck at those tagged with IIT JEE.
So I thought that meant -International Institute of technology
Until one day when my teacher told me actual full form of IIT.
and that's when I decided to study at one of those. This happened around 2011.
@leslietownes this was the part i felt was the problem as well, but aren't all of the $f^{'}(\xi_n)$ contained in the range of the function? So i thought no matter what the value of $f^{'}(\xi_n)$ is i thought the fact that the length of the sub-intervals tending to zero would eventually make $f^{'}(\xi_n)(\nu_n-\nu_{n-1})$ tend to 0
05:05
@BalarkaSen Oh. I know there are some who switch to Maths after engineering but I don't know any.
my roommate switched to physics after electrical engineering in IITKGP
he knows a lot of string theory
Balarka, you will notice that a lot from engineering physics, Biotechnology etc. I have friends from engineering physics and Biotechnology who switched to Maths after their undergraduation.
But rare to see the switching from electrical engineering, civil engineering.
david; it will, but you're summing a number of terms of those that is growing with each n. the finite "limit law" that distributes the thing applies to fixed finite numbers of sequences, not unbounded, n-dependent numbers of them.
@Koro aha
but anyway you can try to opt to do a masters in math in ISI. you have to prepare for the admission test, but that can only be a gain since you dont have a formal training in math at a more advanced level, you can pick it up as you prepare
the masters entrance is better than the undergrad one, less about competitive tricks and more about solid foundations
if a_{m,n} = 1/n for each m and n then a_{1,n} + a_{2,n} + ... + a_{n,n} = 1 for all n and hence lim_n (a_{1,n} + a_{2,n} + ... + a_{n,n}) = 1 also. and this holds despite the fact that lim_n a_{k,n} = 0 holds for every fixed k.
05:11
I think one reason is -not many companies visit for recruitment from engineering physics or Bio technology. At my college (IITG), I don't think any company visited to recruit from engineering physics or Biotech. They went for higher studies or took up IT jobs.
makes sense
@BalarkaSen I wrote it in 2020 but then I saw Sylow theory and I didn't know group theory then so I couldn't do well in it :(
Hi all
yeah you have to pick up the undergrad math curriculum basically
I'll write that exam again. :)
05:12
dont try to crack it without having a solid foundation
once you have it itll be easy
eg i did very bad at the undergrad entrance and barely got in, tifr graduate entrance was easy for me
because very few people learn the foundations solidly
its less trickier, more grounded in knowledge
@BalarkaSen I understood that after I wrote the entrance in 2020. I didn't know group theory at all back then, it was new to me. I knew some linear algebra but not through operators;rather through matrices. I have worked on those things -group theory, linear algebra etc. I wish to appear in that entrance exam again. :)
Great! Seems like you know exactly what to do
Balarka, have you noted how there are so many coaching centres for cracking JEE?
But I have not seen any coaching centre for cracking BMath/Stat...
05:18
there are some.
they teach you how to do well in entrance exams, thats all
Every Indian teenager I have ever talked to has mentioned the JEE.
It is one of the most bizarre exams I have seen.
@BalarkaSen not many students in highschool know about BMath/Stat. They know only about JEE.
@leslietownes I’m confused by this example, doesn’t the number of terms here increase with n as well?
any ongoing problem to which i can contribute confusion & delay, like the fat controller
david: yes
05:27
i wonder why thomas the train changed the fat controller to sir topham hat?
@leslietownes don’t mind me, I get your point now
I’m just being a silly goose like usual
david but note in the example lim_n (a_{1,n} + ... + a_{n,n}) is not lim_n a_{1,n} (which is 0) + lim_n a_{2,n} (also 0) + "..." (kinda meaningless because the number of terms is not controlled and the value of every one of them changes with n) + lim_n a_{n,n} (also 0)
ah ok
@copper.hat yes.
I tried to prove $f=(f_1,f_2,...,f_m)$ is diff. at c iff $f_i$'s are diff. at c.
@Koro that is just an 'assembly' problem
ohh, you are using little o
bad bad bad
Argh, I forgot you hate that :P
05:32
well, it is good for intuition, bad for formal
@Koro for the forward direction, note that $\pi_k(x) = x_k$ is linear, hence differentiable, and so $f_k = \pi_k \circ f$ is differentiable.
The Euclidean algorithm is like the Fibonacci recurrence except instead of plus it's mod
I say that $f=o(g)$ iff there exists $\alpha (x)$ such that $f(x)=\alpha(x) g(x)$ and that $\alpha (x)\to 0$ as x tends to something. Isn't that very formal?
@copper.hat projections, hmm.
$a_{n+2}=a_{n+1}{~\rm mod}~a_n$
@Koro the issue is that it obscures detail. the proof is fine, it is really just saying that $x_k \to x$ iff $x_k(i) \to x(i)$ for each $i$.
where I mean the operator version of mod
05:36
@leslietownes well I think it’s a fine counter example to the claim I made
@AkivaWeinberger that is a bit of a leap
Thanks for the review, copper. :)
But I don't understand why you don't like little o.
If it weren't formal, no one would use that.
personal preference.
no detail is obscured I think. $f$ is diff. at c (talking one variable) then I say $\lim_{x\to c}\frac{f(x)-f(c)}{x-c}$ exists or equivalently $f(x)-f(c)=f'(c) (x-c)+o(x-c)$ as $x\to c$.
personal preference. :)
i don't really want to drag over it
05:40
@copper.hat They don't really have any other similar properties, as far as I know, but at least the recurrence looks similar
Incidentally
Given that $F_0=0$ and $F_1=1$, did you know that $m|n$ iff $F_m|F_n$?
Or, $n/m$ is an integer iff $F_n/F_m$ is an integer
I made homemade pizza dough and sauce for slow-rise (overnight in fridge) pizza. Beat that copper.hat and Ted. :D
Incidentally, Knuth invented an A(x) notation similar to O(x) and o(x)
which a baby version of me asked about a few years ago
22
Q: Is Knuth's suggestion on teaching calculus a good idea?

Akiva Weinberger Note: I myself am not a math educator, though I plan to be one someday. In this letter, Donald Knuth suggests an alternate way of teaching calculus, based on big-O (introduced via a related big-A notation). He says "it would be a pleasure for both students and teacher if calculus were taught...

yeah, didn't knuth develop tex?
Yes, I know Big-O but not enough to apply it to number theory -_-
@PenAndPaperMathematics i use the trader joes pizza
05:45
@copper.hat you have to slow-rise it 1-3 days, that's the key
i find i can pick it up & bake it inabout 15 mins, by which time starvation has been averted
I don't think the temp of the water for the yeast matters. I did everything by "Hey, Googling" with a device my dad developed at a company, but I could also wing all of the dough recipe from experience
First time making sauce
He uses $x=A(y)$ to mean $|x|\le y$
and then $x=O(y)$ means $x=CA(y)$ for some $C$
I suppose $x=o(y)$ means $x=yA(\epsilon)$ for all $\epsilon$
We can also write things like $10^{A(2)}=A(100)$
all of those notations are sharp knives
it would be malpractice to teach calculus with them although a good cook does need sharp knives
05:52
I'm so Hyperactive, when I smoke, or when I'm stoned as well :) I like to smoke when I smoke
i use $x=-{1 \over 12} Z(\omega)$ to mean anything i want
How dare you say that about my mother
i have sinned, so i don't stone
(Of course, I interpreted it to mean anything I wanted)
@AkivaWeinberger, what if for every function $f$ there exists an algorithm $A$ with worst case running time of $A$ equal to $O(f)$...
05:54
just got upvoted on reddit. wonder when i will get a pair of reddit socks
Given some (or possibly any) input space $X$
i sent my se socks to my daughter in london
i know her school friends will be totally impressed
Nice! I did not know they had apparel on MSE
She should get extra credit in math courses for wearing them
i suspect that she won't wear them proudly
one of her friends found me on mse
Found you remotely or physically?
06:00
looking for a solution to a math problem
It all depends whether they upvoted or downvoted :)
New Johnny Depp movie on NF
sold my 0.0021201 btc for a $1 profit
off to the bahamas
06:28
@DavidChoi I know leslie has commented, but as an example consider $$\lim_{n\to\infty}\underbrace{\frac1n+\dots+\frac1n}_{n\text{ terms}}\overset{\text{?}}=\underbrace{\lim_{n\to\infty}\frac1n+\dots+\lim_{n\to\infty}\frac1n}_{n\text{ terms}}$$ which would imply that $1=0$. Note that the right hand side doesn't really make sense anyway, since $n$ in the limit is undefined.
index confusion
@copper.hat: yeah, just trying to show that we can't swap limits and summation.
David hides the summation limits by writing the sum as $\lim\limits_{n\to\infty}a_1+\dots+\lim\limits_{n\to\infty}a_n$
@robjohn yep I fooled myself :(( suggestive notation got me again
I changed the notation to use the same confusing summations.
i'm stuck in an endless windows 10 update loop
it is an unbelievable pile of steaming excrement
06:45
@copper.hat Enjoy your cup of coffee.
:-) have not had coffee for months
small, without cream or sugar
i like an espresso with a nice meal
good. I've never had coffee.
generally i have tea
06:46
That's my poison
definitely mine.
i have tried weaning myself off tea, but was unsuccessful
I also like Trader Joe's Chai mix
i like the trader joes irish breakfast :-)
i do like chai, but it is sort of a treat, i had one a pete's today after my trip to a bookshop in search of elementary number theorem inspiration
oh wait, it went from 100% to 21% and is now at 45%
How does individual prepare for IMO?
International mathematical olympaid
I mean training
no idea sorry
06:49
Are there any specific courses
i can help with science olympiad maybe :-)
i coached a few winnewrs
but not maths
;_; I want to join department of mathematics which will give higher probability to enter university
i am sure there are others that can help here
different times of day different folks show up
@copper.hat Sure
How?
i am an engineer
06:50
@MethNoob no courses, just find problem sites. Work lots of old IMO problems.
how what?
@robjohn Ok thanks I will do them
like aops?
@copper.hat to prepare for that
@robjohn The knowledge required is just high school level right?
Eh... the more knowledge you have, the simpler the problems will be.
06:55
there used to be some notes by a fellow called Qiaochu Yuan but i am unable to find them
An ex-mod on math.SE
@MethNoob the problems are elementary but not simple
looks like most most them are proof based problem
woo hoo, 82% complete
@robjohn are there known formulae/estimates for functions like $\nu_p(n)$ (largest power of $p$ that divides $n$) and $\sigma_p(n)$ (sum of digits of base-$p$ expansion of $n$)?
working on updates, back to 9% complete
For $\nu_p(n)$, yes?
I have studied that, I think.
The formula involves floor functions.
Oh no, that was for $n!$.
07:10
@Koro, yes that is what led to my question.
omg, another restart required. what do the good folks at microsoft do?
@copper.hat don't you just hate that?
that is about 5 restarts in the last hour.
i have a windows vm running and i only use it sporadically, i should run more often to prevent this accumulation
@copper.hat not any of which I am aware.
thanks! that was what i was looking for in the bookshop today :-)
07:28
2022 has only 2 and 0 in both decimal and ternary representation.
The next number with this property is 22220202002202
07:42
Is it possible to play pool with a cue which has only bare wood at the tip? (no rubber)

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