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17:03
makes sense. with sequences of this type, unless there is a clear link to something more well known (e.g. the prime factorization of the input) brute force might be the best approach. even if you establish that something is bounded below by an increasing function you might still have a large number of cases to check if the function grows slowly.
thankfully this one grows quickly enough.
17:22
the first 12 terms agree with something on OEIS that relates to prime factorization. then, oops.
if $\sigma\in S_n$ (the symmetric group of degree $n$) is such that $\sigma$ sends $i$ to $j$ and let $\theta\in S_n$ be such that $\theta$ sends $i$ to $s$ and $j$ to $t$ then $\theta^{-1}\sigma \theta$ sends $s$ to $t$
why is it true?
you have to be a bit careful about the order when writing out permutations
theta^{-1} sends s to i. sigma sends i to j. theta sends j to t. if you write permutations on the left, this would be a computation that the permutation denoted $\theta \circ \sigma \circ \theta^{-1}$ sends s to t
$\theta^{-1}\sigma\theta (s)=\theta^{-1}\sigma(\theta (s))$, now this $\theta (s)$ is not known
17:36
indeed. there is not enough information to compute that
the point is that, if you write the operation like that, then $\theta^{-1}\sigma \theta$ is not the right way generate s->t
there is enough information to compute $\theta \sigma \theta^{-1}$ of $s$
or at least there's no guarantee it'll work
by contrast, leslie's order does
it is $\theta \sigma \theta^{-1}$ that sends $s$ to $t$
by contrast, if the permutation acts from left to right
then what you wrote would be right
17:37
@leslietownes i saw this on page number 88 of Topics in Algebra
i don't have that book. does that book write permutations to the right of their arguments?
basically you have to know what conventions your book is using
it's fairly common outside of algebra to write function composition $f \circ g$ to indicate the function where $g$ is applied first, and then $f$. this parallels the common practice of writing functions to the left of their arguments
in algebra sometimes people adopt the mirror image of that, and apply functions on the right
Where I can find formal proof of there exists an equivalent parse tree for each derivation? There is a lot of informal proof of equivalency on the internet but I need formal proof to reference it in a paper.
for various reasons.
17:40
@love_sodam Yes. The logic given in the accepted answer applies to any n dimensional ball. It's related to the fact that the ball is the shape that minimizes the surface area for a given volume.
prefix vs postfix type stuff
it's substance-free, just a notational thing. particularly once you have a number of different things acting or operating on other things, you end up having to keep track of this no matter what choice you make
but the purpose of adopting a convention is usually to minimize the amount of brain cycles you have to spend in keeping track of it
it's a bit like accounting: just because it's trivial, doesn't mean it's not tedious
Ah, I first read some Herstein's algebra where $fg$ was simply composition of functions (from R to L), so thought similar convention would be followed in Topics in algebra. But you're right. the convention being followed is from L to R.
I need to write up some stuff in that vein myself re: permutations acting on functions
17:42
thanks a lot @leslietownes @Semiclassical
The topic of the order of composition was discussed here a day or so ago:
yesterday, by Xander Henderson
Instead of writing $f(x)$, we really ought to write $(x)f$, or $x\circ f$ or something.
as practice for that: Suppose $x\in\mathbb{R}^n$ and $\psi :\mathbb{R}^n\to\mathbb{R}^n$, and let $p_1,p_2\in S_n$
we ought to do that some of the time. applying on the left does make sense for a lot of things. (maybe less sense for composition operators, as we noted the other day :))
Then the book I'm using introduces $P_1,P_2$ as $P_1 \psi(x)=\psi(p_1(x))$ and $P_2\psi(x)=\psi(p_2(x))$
@leslietownes A baby lamb for your daughter. Her name is Bella, she's from a small farm in Idaho, and she's 15 minutes old in this photo. I saw her on EweTube.
17:46
so the question is whether $P_2 P_1\psi(x)=P_2 \psi(p_1(x)) = \psi(p_2(p_1(x))$
that is far too adorable
@PM2Ring she's going to love this.
My pleasure.
my daughter wasn't that cute at 15 minutes old. newborns look like bugs.
17:53
What the book gives an example: they write $P_{12}\psi(x_1,x_2,x_3)=\psi(x_2,x_1,x_3)$ and similarly $P_{13}$ for swapping 2,3
and then $P_{13}P_{12}\psi(x_1,x_2,x_3)=P_{13}\psi(x_2,x_1,x_3)=\psi(x_2,x_3,x_1)$...hrm
that is problematic
that doesn't match the $P\psi(x)=\psi(p(x))$ interpretation
that doesn't seem right
should be psi(x_3, x_1, x_2) surely
yeah, i don't like it. i won't say it's out-and-out inconsistent but it's not standard
the permutation doesn't act on how you choose to label the argument, because the function doesn't know how you label the argument
right.
so i don't think one can interpret my book's permutation operator in the way i've been doing
you could see something acting on labels if the domain were, say, a set of multivariable polynomials
17:58
i do not have a high opinion of this book, to be clear
@Semiclassical Postfix notation, aka Reverse Polish Notation, is fun. Early HP scientific calculators used it. And it's been used in a few programming languages, eg Logo and PostScript. I did a bit of Logo a few decades ago, but I've written a lot of PostScript. It takes a little while for my brain to get into RPN mode when I do PostScript coding, but after a few minutes or so it feels very natural.
@leslietownes here's the page where the book does it (the search is just to get to the page easily): google.com/books/edition/Advanced_Quantum_Mechanics/…
specifically the bit under "three particles"
yeah, not consistent. physicists, what are you gonna do.
I think the real reason for doing it that way is that Schwabl ultimately wants to use it do permutations on tensor products of vectors
yeah, eventually he's going to be operating on a domain where you can define maps on a basis, and it makes more sense.
18:10
@PM2Ring but why that notation? why xf instead of f(x)?
for instance, on the next page he writes (sans bra-ket notation) $$P_{123}(\alpha \otimes \beta \otimes \gamma) = \gamma \otimes \alpha\otimes \beta$$
while in the other example $P_{123}\psi(x_1,x_2,x_3)=\psi(x_2,x_3,x_1)$
you see this a lot even when people aren't defining maps on bases. e.g. if some chemical quantity f of interest is a function of pressure P and volume V of a gas, an applied chemist might write f(P,V) or f(V,P) for the exact same formula, because they can tell the letters apart. this is squarely at odds with the formal convention for writing multivariable functions.
under which if i write f(P,V) = P + 2V that tells me f(2,3) = 2 + 2*3 = 8, whereas if i write f(V,P) = P + 2V that means f(2,3) = 3 + 2*2 = 7.
the classic example is "if $f(x,y)=x^2+y^2$, what is $f(r,\theta)$?"
in a physics context, you'd always read that as $f(r,\theta)=r^2$
because we'd interpret that as writing $f$ in polar coordinates vs Cartesian coordinates
the more defensible interpretation of that, to me, is that one really has $f=f_c\circ g_c=f_p\circ g_p$ where $f$ is a function on R^2, $g_c,g_p$ assign points in R^2 to their cartesian/polar forms, and $f_c,f_p$ are how you compute relative to those forms. of course you can just take $g_c=\text{id}$ and $f=f_c$.
so it's really just pullbacks, i guess?
a friend of mine who went to grad school in physics but had more of a math background used to joke about this stuff all the time. 'we have no problems of computing things that have no formal mathematical meaning whatsoever, and never discuss our notational conventions, but you can be damn sure that a prof is going to spend 20 minutes on a rigorous proof of the cauchy-schwarz inequality"
@Koro Well, it progresses in normal reading order, from left to right, so to compose two functions you'd write x f g. Whereas, $g(f(x))$ progresses from the innermost-nested outwards, so it goes in the reverse of the normal reading order. So with something like $g(f(x)) + h(f(x))$, you're going backwards & forwards. In postfix notation, that'd just be x f g x f h +
18:22
I've gotten used to fog(x)=f(g(x) now :)
about a third of my calculus students struggled with that
i'm not sure that they would not have also struggled with postfix notation :)
I've tried using postfix for plain algebra. It's not easy to break old habits. I have to pretend that I'm writing a program. :)
@leslietownes I guess what I need to figure out now is how tf to formalize what Schwabl is doing when it comes to position functions
if it's not precomposition
i think you have to envision the domain as a set with distinguishable symbolic 'variables' and you're precomposing with something that acts on 'variables' as opposed to entries of an n-tuple
right
which does 'sorta' make sense. these x1,x2,x3 are not intended as "coordinates of one point", they're as "x-coordinates for a bunch of points"
18:34
so what's that domain, i dunno. formal expressions in x_1, x_2, x_3 made up of, precalculus expressions? with a proviso that you only use expressions that make sense when you evaluate these expressions at x_1, x_2, x_3 lying in some region of 3-space?
(heck, if this is really physics, one probably has $x_1\in\mathbb{R}^3$ just to fk with me)
beats me
this is about when i tapped out of physics
yeah
i also need to write this out in Dirac notation. one often writes $\psi(x)=\langle x|\psi\rangle$ for the position-space representation of $\psi$. (it's not really correct without appealing to a rigged Hilbert space, b/c otherwise $\langle x|$ isn't actually a meaningful Hilbert-space vector)
19:14
@PM2Ring oy ewe tube
How could Ewe Tube not be a thing? :)
Can anyone please tell me how he got AH=2RcosA and HP=2RcosBcosC in this answer?
come to think of it, maybe the above point resolves my concern: In Dirac notation, one has $\hat{P}\psi(x)=\langle x |\hat{P}|\psi\rangle$
so Dirac notation for position-space functions sorta is already in postfix form
(for better or worse)
19:40
@leslietownes "Dirac notation for functions is secretly (x)f" is a fun little slogan
and to my brain sorta does justify why we like to write integrals as $\int dx (\cdots)$ so much
19:56
boo
@Semiclassical this is heresy
i miss the good old days when people could be burned at the stake for doing geometry the wrong way
when being a mathematical heretic had consequences
"hey, he thinks he's better than euclid!" "he denies euclid??!?" "there are no prophets after euclid! get him!"
12
Q: Why is the $dx$ right next to the integral sign in QFT literature?

Craig FeinsteinI've noticed that in QFT literature, integrals are usually written as $\int \!dx ~f(x)$ instead of $\int f(x) dx$. Why?

20:00
i like how the three answers basically just say the same thing. "it keeps the variable and range of integration together"
but do go on
i mean, it's all conventions at the end of the day
well, most notation is a matter of preference, but that notation is objectively wrong
lol
"Borel, then an unknown young man, discovered that his summation method gave the 'right' answer for many classical divergent series. He decided to make a pilgrimage to Stockholm to see Mittag-Leffler, who was the recognized lord of complex analysis. Mittag-Leffler listened politely to what Borel had to say and then, placing his hand upon the complete works by Weierstrass, his teacher, he said in Latin, 'The Master forbids it'."
Google Translate gives the latin as dominus vetat
weierstrass is one of my mathematical ancestors. i am just holding the line
i wonder how far back the $\int dx$ tradition in QFT goes
20:14
to the serpent that told eve to eat the apple
@Ted I feel like you've misunderstood what OP meant by a local diffeomorphism in this question
Really? He was messed up by a ridiculous error in Wiki, which I corrected. What do you think he means?
@Koro yessir
20:34
a globally defined map that is locally a diffeomorphism
@shintuku On a related note, for polys that have maxima & minima of $\pm c$, see Chebyshev polynomials of the 1st kind. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chebyshev_polynomials
nifty, thanks for the reference!
That is a very unique interpretation. No one on earth.
I mean in the context of defining manifolds we just can’t mean that.
I agree that covering maps are local diffeomorphisms in that sense.
I mean, that's the definition given
Anyhow, please clarify for him!
20:41
it's the natural definition as far as I'm concerned, same thing as with local homeomorphism
but I can't quite make heads or tails of that discussion at the wikipedia article either
the existence of a local diffeomorphism is not the right notion for things looking the same locally
"For example, one can impose two different differentiable structures on {\displaystyle \mathbb {R} }\mathbb {R} that make {\displaystyle \mathbb {R} }\mathbb {R} into a differentiable manifold, but both structures are not locally diffeomorphic (see below)"
what a garbage sentence
completely wrong
The trouble with learning math only from wikipedia.
the remark about patching things together makes no sense when talking about local diffeomorphism
it reads like whoever wrote that discussion part of the article was themselves confused about the difference between "local diffeomorphism" and "diffeomorphism defined on an open subset"
It’s misuse of the language. I see that I did miss the bigger issue.
I do think there's a lot of good math articles on Wikipedia, but this is certainly not one of them
but of course, Wikipedia should always be supplementary at best
I rarely make corrections, but maybe I need to go back to that wiki article and correct more.
20:48
I think that entire paragraph should just be deleted
@TedShifrin Wikipedia doesn't have enough quality control, which is what allowed the Scots Wikipedia fiasco to occur en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_Wikipedia Fortunately, the science & mathematics parts tend to get better scrutiny, although severe errors can sit there for years.
The stuff about smooth structures in $\Bbb R$ is red herring. Nothing local versus global there. There’s a unique smooth structure globally up to diffeomorphism.
yeah, the claim that there's no local diffeomorphism between these two structures in wrong in every sense imaginable
 
2 hours later…
22:44
@Ted your favorite tennis player did not have a good day. :(((
Hooray for Daniil!
apparently he had another racket incident. it's important to stay on-brand.
tennis is definitely a bit of a racquet
For those at the top, a very lucrative racquet!
23:01
okay I made a blog
now I need something to blog about
cart before the horse?
exactly
Waiting at a vet in Agoura Hills. Our dog has been off her food, and it’s gotten to the point that we are very worried. We had a hard time even finding one that would take us. Took us 90 minutes just to do that. 3½ hours later they took her in.
stuff always happens on, or immediately before, the weekend.
good luck.
Actually, my wife points out it was more like 2½ hours that I looked for a place. Did not feel we could wait until tomorrow for her regular vet.
@leslietownes Thanks!
That’s why I’ve been offsite most of the day
23:15
@robjohn Thinking good thoughts. Problems cuz Sunday or cuz Covid?
tomorrow i expect a lot of the afternoon will be dealing with my daughter's leg. apparently pediatric orthopedists don't do weekends.
Just amputate.
@TedShifrin probably both. However, getting vet appointments has been awfully hard recently. People have gotten more pets because of covid and vets are taking advantage of the situation.
If it weren’t Sunday, we’d have just gone to our own vet near home.
I heard a story on NPR about the mega bucks vets are making.
I’m not sure what I’m paying for my cat to be neutered in a few weeks. $200 down so far.
23:31
It was $600 for two xrays then $1000 for an ultrasound at another vet as a follow up. I made a claim on my pet insurance, which all went to deductible, then I got a bill for the next year at over double what it was the year before.
our cat saw an cat eye specialist four times, probably $800 total. her pupils were sometimes not the same size due to an imbalance of fluid pressure in the eye. it went away eventually.
We are changing pet insurance carriers
It’s amazing how technology makes xrays and ultrasounds easier, yet the prices soar astronomically.
I’ve never done pet insurance.
Lack of competition. Ironic.
It is a tough call when things that were not feasible in the past are now with financial reach.
We got ultrasounds for pets years ago, and they were the inexpensive alternative. Xrays were expensive because they were film.
23:45
Some friends (not especially well off) have spend on excess of $20k in a few years on an old (lovely) lab who died recently.
That was with insurance.
As pets become more part of the family, the vets will charge for it.
@copper.hat that sounds terrible.
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