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15:01
sorry, I'm punchy this morning.
lol
nevermind. just thought of one
@Paddy $z_1^2+z_2^2$ is a multivariable function with a complex gradient. If you want a function on $\mathbb{R}^n$, then you will need some complex coefficients, like $ix_1+x_2$. I'm not sure what you are looking for.
Of course a real gradient is also a complex gradient ($\mathbb{R}\subset\mathbb{C}$).
The Mathjax isn't rendering on my PC, but isn't the function you mentioned vector valued?
oh wait
I need coffee
My bad
Why a×infiniry = infinity for all real?
15:12
@shaihorowitz Laurent series
thats a convention
except for a=0
@PrateekMourya that is a deceptive statement, what they really mean is, if some value x grows without bound as time goes on, then so would ax
-1× infinity why still infinity not -infinity
well it should be -infinity
I forget, how does one setup mathjax to render on chat windows?
15:13
It depends on the context
tinyurl.com/cfqcvpc <-- ChatJax installer
My teacher wrote this and in whole class no body asked
@LeakyNun confirm?
context
its contextual
sometimes we want to compactify R with one infinity, sometimes with two
15:15
that's what I meant
most of the arithmetic in extended reals is a matter of convention. the values of limits are not a matter of convention.
one-point vs two-point compactification
Is there any layman terms explanation
@robjohn That was simple. Thanks!
I am a jee aspirant and there is not much depth
15:16
@Paddy rendering okay now?
"infinity" by itself does not have a mathematical meaning
is this in the context of limit calculations?
@LeakyNun or it has a large number of meanings based on context. In set theory, there are many infinities
@robjohn Yep!
great!
15:19
Ok i have one more doubt why lim(h>0) ceiling of h=0
I am not sure what you are asking
Question was lim x>2 ceiling of x
Using lim(h>0) ceiling (2+h)
You mean $\lim\limits_{x\to2^+}\lceil x\rceil$?
Then it reduced to lim(h>0) ceiling of h
ummm.... no
15:23
I am very sorry i meant fractional part of x
it means the limit from above
Function is fractional part but yes RHL
@PrateekMourya, you might want to use mathjax to ask your questions more clearly
I am sorry i don't know math jax i should try to use a converter
Wait
@PrateekMourya have you installed ChatJax?
18 mins ago, by robjohn
http://tinyurl.com/cfqcvpc <-- ChatJax installer
@robjohn yes of course. Thank you very much :)
I don't know the language
After step 3 she said that its just equal to 0
Do one thing @PrateekMourya: $\{x\}=x-[x]$
and $[.]$ is floor function (greatest integer function)
But how lim(h>0) h is 0 since it will be a quantity greater or less than 0
use$\lfloor x\rfloor$ for floor and $\lceil x\rceil$ for ceiling
15:36
Is this result correct? $\sum_{n=0}^\infty (-1)^n C_n=\frac{\sqrt{5}-1}{2}$, where C_n denotes nth catalan number.
I just want to verify.
Floor of h is zero but how lim(h>0) h =0
@PrateekMourya do you mean $h$ greater than $0$ or $h\to0$?
$C_n=\frac{1}{n+1}{2n \choose n}$
h>0 if we approach from -ve side is quantity less than 0 not zero
I think by limit we are finding value it approaches to
And it approaches 0 from both sides
Am i correct?
$\lim\limits_{x\to0^+}\{x\}=0$, but $\lim\limits_{x\to0^-}\{x\}=1$
$\{-0.1\}=0.9$
15:40
Here by lim(x>0+) are we finding value the function approaches from 0+?
if you are not going to use MathJax, at least write -> for $\to$
using > is confusing
I am sorry i think i should again learn limit from basics i am missing some bits
Thanks
@PrateekMourya
today i learned everybody has better handwriting than i do.
$\{x\}$ is discontinuous, so it is not too surprising the the limit from above is different from the limit from below.
15:47
When two functions intersect at a point does the slope of the two functions at the intersection point have to be different or can these also be the same?
@leslietownes i was writing too fast there :(
they can be the same, or not.
my handwriting is illegible. my wife can sometimes read it, but she's had 20 years of experience.
@MaryStar $x$ and $\sin(x)$ intersect at $x=0$ and both slopes are $1$.
$-x$ and $\sin(x)$ also intersect at $x=0$, but the slopes are $-1$ and $1$
if the slopes are the same it looks like the curves just touch. if they are different it looks like one cuts the graph of the other one.
I had an elective on writing systems of the world and as a part of that course, we were given some Japanese pens and asked to write hiragana/katakana and I found writing that very difficult.
15:53
my handwriting looks like a chicken walked across the page.
math is legible but not any words.
in that course of ours,you have to take care of how you draw every line (from Right to left or left to right, from up to down or down to top and strokes etc.)
i'm left handed, so i make a lot of letters in an unconventional way. learning cursive was very difficult for me because the whole alphabet is premised on you being right handed.
it's all about clockwise movement. every letter and letter feature is oriented.
or counterclockwise movement. i mix them up because i'm left handed.
Literally no one talks about mine question.
does that series even converge? catalan numbers are not my thing.
@leslietownes The big "L" they put on your back in school was for "leftie", not "leslie" ;-p
16:01
I got that answer by using generating function of central binomial coefficient.
i thought it was Loser. these are both upgrades.
according to wikipedia, the generating function of the Catalan numbers is $$c(x)=\sum_{n=0}^\infty C_n x^n=\frac{1-\sqrt{1-4x}}{2x}$$
in the limit $x\to -1^+$, this does give $c(x)\to \frac{\sqrt{5}-1}{2}$
@NikhilKumarSingh that series does not converge.
@Leslie: you should see the handwriting in "Cours de M. Hermite"
@Semiclassical if it converged.
16:03
right
it's the same as saying $1+2+3+4+5+\dots=-\frac1{12}$
yeah, or $1-1+1-1+\cdots = \frac12$
that last one is particualrly relevant since it's coming from $\frac{1}{1-x}\to \frac12$ as $x\to -1^+$
koro, that's far better than mine.
so the way to summarize it would be that, if you're going to assign any value to this series, it'll be $(\sqrt{5}-1)/2$. but said assignment will not be summation as such, because the series doesn't converge
Okay. $1-2+3-4+5-6+\dots=\frac14$
16:06
But is it its Cesaro sum?
should be, i think?
seems testable
second cesaro summable
take the cesaro means of the cesaro means, I believe that converges
16:11
$1,-\frac12,\frac23,-\frac12,\frac35,-\frac12,\dots,\frac{n}{2n-1},-\frac12,\dots$
@leslietownes i wish I could write the handwriting as in "Cours de M. Hermite". I mean I really like that type of handwriting :)
Howdy, Semiclassic!
o/
got some neat polytopes stuff i'm thinking about
related to the one MO question i quoted
If P= $$$$\begin{pmatrix} \omega^2 & 1 & \omega & \omega^2 \cdots \\ 1 & \omega & \omega^2 & 1 \cdots \\ \omega & \omega^2 & 1 & \omega \cdots \\ \vdots & \vdots & \vdots & \vdots \end{pmatrix}$$ , a n×n matrix , then for what value of n will $P^2 \not= 0$
And what is $\omega$?
16:14
hmm, same question
I know the answer.
@TedShifrin Cube root of unity
Oh, silly me.
for 3 by 3, P will be a disaster
to review: form all $\pm$-tuples of $(A,A',B,B')$, and form the 8-tuples $(A,A',B,B',AB,AB',A'B,A'B')$. Take the convex hull of these points to get 7-dimensional polytope
16:16
Yess
That gives the vertex-representation. What does the half-space representation look like, i.e., what are the facets?
Turns out to be a good deal nicer than i thought it would be
@TedShifrin what's the idea behind..? $p^2=0$ for many n as I saw ..
@NikhilKumarSingh: it looks as if the second Cesàro mean is $0$, but the series regularized sum is $\frac14$.
huh, that's sorta odd
though i guess the $x\to -1^+$ limit is Abel summation
is that what it's called? the one where you take the sum as the limit like that
yeah, Abel's theorem
@leslietownes @leslietownes @robjohn Thank you!!
16:22
sources say that convergence implies Cesaro convergence implies Abel convergence, but not backwards
with this case as an evident example
it appears so.
I don't know enough about these things to be surprised at the second-Cesaro sum being different than the Abel sum
it feels weird but divergent sums are weird to begin with
I need to look for one where the first Cesaro mean is different than the Abel sum
i'm actually having trouble verifying the Cesaro sums with Mathematica, they seem to just blow up
though maybe i'm not going out far enough
20 mins ago, by robjohn
$1,-\frac12,\frac23,-\frac12,\frac35,-\frac12,\dots,\frac{n}{2n-1},-\frac12,\dots$
16:34
for definiteness, i have the first 10 Catalan numbers as
1,1,2,5,14,42,132,429,1430,4862,16796
Oh, I was talking about my sequence... are those the alternating sums?
yeah, i misunderstood you
and no, i haven't put in the alternating sums yet
but i'm not sure Cesaro will work here for Catalan
perhaps not. It grows exponentially
$\frac{4^n}{\sqrt{\pi n^3}}$ if I am not mistaken
16:38
yeah
i think one has $\sum_{k=0}^n (-1)^k p_d(x)$ as $(d+1)$-Cesaro summable
for a degree-d polynomial
that seems correct
so for exponential growth i don't think there's any hope
on the other hand, Borel summation may work
there are too many ways to sum, my head hurts
things were so simple when $1+1=2$
16:41
basically it's a matter of considering the exponential G.F. instead
which automatically has better convergence properties than the ordinary G.F.
too bad the exponential G.F. seems worse to sum than the ordinary one :P
yeah, it takes the right sequence to have a closed form
though polynomials sum nicely
apparently one has $\sum_{n=0}^\infty C_n x^n/n!=e^{2t}(I_0(2t)-I_0'(2t))$ (modified Bessel function)
which...neat
6 days ago, by robjohn
> @schn it all depends on the application to which it is being applied. There is no way to make a generalization that will be true in every case. Some cases require a uniform convergence and some don't.
Dear @robjohn , can you give an example of a case where uniform convergence is required and possibly another where it isn't?
@schn When I come across a case, I will bring it up. I don't remember examples right off.
No worries.
16:54
I thought that since you were so concerned about little-o, that you were dealing with it in problems.
I haven't really. However, the definition and its usage seems very straightforward.
okay, confirmed with Mathematica that the Borel sum is also $(\sqrt{5}-1)/2$
it occurs to me that i don't know whether Abel => Borel, though I think it's that order and not the other
simply because $\sum_k a_k z^k/k!$ seems easier to ensure convergence than $\sum_k a_k z^k$
Are there specific rules for when constants can and cannot be lumped while solving differential equations? When working with ODEs, I operated under the heuristic that you cannot lump once you start the process of applying initial conditions. Now when working with PDEs, it seems like sometimes you have to lump in the middle of applying initial/boundary conditions, but sometimes doing so seems to lead to a wrong answer.
i.e. there's apparently Abel-summable series which aren't Borel-summable and vice-versa
@robjohn the image I'd uploaded shows it's not true in general
17:07
The gradient of $||x||^2$ is $2x$ for a real vector $x$. This doesn't seem to be true for complex vectors. Any idea what the gradient will be for complex vectors?
$||.||$ being the L2 norm
@love_sodam but were you able to prove it?
@love_sodam where did you upload it?
17:25
@Paddy the gradient does not make sense for complex vectors.
So I messed around a little with the math and came to the conclusion that $x + x^*$ is the gradient in general and this would work for a complex vector too. I passed this to a gradient-check function and it confirmed that the gradient was right.
BUT
I am no mathematician. Engineering grad student here
12 hours ago, by love_sodam
user image
@robjohn
12 hours ago, by love_sodam
user image
If there was a gradient it would have to be zero as $\|x\|^2$ is always real valued.
@Koro A disaster?
@copper.hat, I don't follow your reasoning
What does the function being real valued have to do with the gradient being zero?
17:33
What does the gradient mean to you?
If a function has a gradient $g$ at a point $x$ then $f(x+h) = f(x) + \langle g,h \rangle + o(h)$. Since $f$ is real valued, and $h \in \mathbb{C}$ the only way that $f(x+h)$ can be real valued for all $h$ is if $g \neq 0$.
That is a great point. I think I'll take this time to reevaluate my life
Wait
No
Right
You mean $g = 0$, right?
@Paddy The question is what you mean by gradient. With functions of $z$ there are both $z$ and $\bar z$ derivatives unless the function is holomorphic or anti-holomorphic.
I have no idea what either of those last terms mean
then you're missing the concept of what it means to differentiate a function of a complex variable
So I'm reading this paper where they take the gradient of the L2 norm of a complex vector and I was wondering what that gradient is
17:44
holomorphic = complex differentiable
@Semiclassical, agreed
so for instance take f(z)=Re z
The safest thing for you to do is to write $\|z\|^2 = \|x+iy\|^2 = \|x\|^2 + \|y\|^2$ and do the usual $(x,y)$ gradient.
What do they claim the answer is?
Unfortunately, they don't say what it is. It goes like, 'we calculate the gradient and this happens'
What is "this"? You're being singularly unhelpful.
17:47
Oh sorry
They are trying to minimize a function
oh, just to check my brain on vector space stuff. Suppose I have two vector spaces with known bases. If I tensor those spaces together, do i get a basis by just tensoring all basis vectors in pairs?
The function being the norm of a complex vector
It may be that they don't understand themselves what "gradient" means. Or they're just doing as I said and doing the usual real gradient.
@Semiclassic Yes.
Possible. I'll try using what you said to reconstruct their results. Thanks!
17:49
I mean: When you want to disclose full information here of what they say, I'll be glad to answer in greater detail.
Are they doing a least-squares computation? This is quite common.
@Paddy for a comparison, suppose you want to minimize $\|x+iy\|$ subject to $x\leq 3$. In terms of real variables, that amounts to minimizing $\sqrt{x^2+y^2}$ with $x\leq 3$ as a constraint.
so the relevant gradient in that case would just be the usual two-variable gradient in $x,y$
you can represent that in terms of complex numbers, but ultimately it's just doing stuff with real variables
The "right" way to do it is to write $$g(z+h)=g(z)+\frac{\partial g}{\partial z}h + \frac{\partial g}{\partial\bar z}\bar h + o(h).$$
I am seeing Wirtinger here.
Wirtinger means something totally different to me.
Relating to Kähler geometry and minimal submanifolds.
$\frac{\partial}{\partial z}$ and $\frac{\partial}{\partial\overline{z}}$ are called Wirtinger operators sometimes
17:56
Oh, never in my life have I seen that.
It's OK. I only worked in complex geometry for 45 years.
i've seen that terminoogy too but never seen a reason for it
holomorphic and anti-holomorphic partials
Clairaut's Theorem that mixed partials are equal? The first time I saw that appellation was in Stewart's Calculus.
Some of these names come out of nowhere.
@TedShifrin: Neighborhoods of isolated singular points (or more generally, normal spheres of higher-dimensional singularities) in projective varieties are naturally "contact manifolds". Why do I never see this in literature?
They're just CR submanifolds. Is there anything special about being a link of a singularity?
The only special thing is that the link may not be a manifold.
That's OK. I can define a stratified contact space.
18:02
Projective is a red herring, too. This is purely local.
What is your general statement outside of projective context?
CR submanifolds need not always be contact, of course.
If you take a small link then the Kahler form has an antiderivative ($\omega = d\alpha$) on it, that's the contact form
Hmm, I was thinking that the maximal complex subspace was a contact hyperplane. Shows how little I ever think about this stuff.
I have had that thought once but it's not true I think
My days of working on CR geometry are long gone. Let's see — I guess integrability of that distribution isn't necessarily the contact condition. The canonical example is $\Re z_n = 0$ in $\Bbb C^n$.
So very not-contact. Oh well.
Yeah, and the maximal complex fellows is the boring distribution.
18:13
Ignore me.
I'll just stick to high-school math now.
I think it's a good thought, because I have wondered and not been able to answer when it's contact.
I think the integrability condition may say it's never contact.
Not may. Does say.
No?
Oh, hah.
$J$ is integrable, hence so is $TX \cap JTX$, you mean, right?
Yeah that's exactly the vanishing of Nijenhuis tensor.
I'm just thinking about the $1$-form $\alpha$. Integrability of $\alpha=0$ is $d\alpha \equiv 0\pmod\alpha$.
Maybe this is interesting.
Thanks, I'll have to think a bit, I'm not as fast with geometry.
Thanks for the MO link
18:20
I'm not sure I'm right about the integrability being the usual Frobenius notion.
My brain is still fuzzy.
It makes sense to me.
oh. the book i'm an author on is listed on Amazon now.
so that's neat
the funny bit to me about it is that, for all of the quantum we do in there, our major results are subject to a technical restriction
18:28
one which lets us avoid a pretty well-known unsolved problem
Mazltov!
Two Michaels and a Michel?
yup
the three mikes manifesto
the joke when Michel was presenting this stuff early on: "Yes, MJ the Younger exists and is not just a persona invented by MJ the Elder"
(basically, we focus on correlations that can be generated by the singlet state, which makes life easy because we don't have to worry about marginal probabilities and everything boils down to "hurr durr positive operators form a convex set". the moment you try to generalize, you have to worry about the marginals and there's no nice way to do that.)
@TedShifrin Ted's Brain:
i mean, the simple way to put it is that the triangle inequality still works in Hilbert space :P
there is a public preprint version of it, btw
it differs from the final version but it'll be staying up
oh wait, that's just the front matter. hmm
thought we had it available online somewhere
18:43
i'll pirate it, don't worry.
heartbreak
i won't pirate it. i respect copyrights
favouring right again i see
18:46
i somewhat indirectly make money from copyrights.
i'm a huge fan of the creator.
no fair use.
fair is a white bias
i am in a very edgy mood today
not touching that
spent too many hours calculating local negative predictive values
it is very difficult to get hard data
what are the chances of 4 fully vaxed kids getting reinfected?
rhetorical
low, i'd think.
i may have had a breakthrough infection.
18:51
apparently my daughter's picture was on a big electronic billboard on times square recently
she did not tell me about it. found out indirectly
so much for her being a spy
yeah, spies don't go on times square.
the problem is that, while the vax is succeeding at lowering the severity of infections
it's not necessarily changing the infectivity
the delta variant is bad. it's doing all kinds of stuff. it's basically chicken pox.
it needs to be called something different than vaccination.
i haven't left the house since the data came out about how infective it is. except to go to the duck pond and other outdoor locations.
18:53
immune boosting
it'll keep you from going to the hospital but
it won't stop you from transmitting it to other people
if it is true that it does not change $R_0$ then then need to (i) change the marketing an d (ii) change public policy fast.
that really sucks, too. for a while it seemed like vaccination might be the end of it.
i never bought into that bit
if you're still shedding virus while vaccinated, it's a different game.
my guess it will end up like flu
18:55
yeah
except all year around. joy. apparently noise in diplomatic circles are suggesting that fort detrick was the origin.
@TedShifrin Ted, I misunderstood the question. I somehow was thinking of det P should be non zero but the question was $P^2$ should be non zero.
not changing $R_0$ is huge
i mean, that's definitely the source the Chinese would prefer
(and given that the main news articles on said theory are the Global Times, which wikipedia describes as "a daily tabloid newspaper under the auspices of the Chinese Communist Party's flagship People's Daily newspaper"...i'm not touching it until more objective sources pick it up)
getting facts is difficult.
even in non contentious situations.
on a completely different note, i wish i could use latex when write code :-)
P_notC_given_notT id not as nice as $P[\bar{C} | \bar{T}]$.
19:07
to sum up the math problem behind what I was saying earlier
Suppose you've got a generic 4-by-4 complex Hermitian positive-definite matrix $\rho$, normalized to have trace 1
I pick two pairs of Hermitian operators, of the form $A\otimes I_2$, $A'\otimes I_2$, $I_2\otimes B$, $I_2\otimes B'$
@leslietownes is that like shedding Trump support while educated?
where $A,A',B,B'$ all have eigenvalues $\pm 1$.
from there you can define the expectation values of these operators as $E[A\otimes B]=\operatorname{tr}[\rho(A\otimes B)]$
and there's a total of eight such expectations to compute, for those four operators and the products $A\otimes B, A\otimes B',A'\otimes B,A'\otimes B'$
the challenge is to find a way to characterize those eight expectations, for generic $\rho$, knowing only information about the four operators
and boy is it tuogh
the one nice thing is that you can think of these operators as acting on the tensor product of pairs of two-by-two matrices
in which case there's a nice inner product structure via $\tr[AB]$, and writing out the basis 'vectors' for this hilbert space is easy
@robjohn if such a thing were possible it might be.
problem is...said basis is 15-dimensional, as it has to be for a generic 4-by-4 hermitian matrix with unit trace
and all we can compute are 8 values
so waaaay too few
so in general there's a bunch of states which give the same output
19:59
is there such a thing as two random walks avoiding each other?

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