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00:44
Let $M$ be embedded in (R^{n+1},g), to calculate curvature on $M$, do we use $g$ or $g_M$? Let's say $M$ is a sphere (radius = 1/2) with n = 2. Let's say something easy like g = (x^2 + y^2)g_\mathbb{R^{3}} where $g_{\mathbb{R}^3}$ is standard metric. Do we calculate using g = (1/2)^2g_{\mathbb{R}^3}?
00:54
curvature depends on the metric, I don't understand your point
@Thorgott I like the unironic use of "pure topology" by you now
i can't tell if he's serious about not understanding it or he just wants to motivate his code golf
i hope the latter
01:19
@BalarkaSen you've been a bad influence
btw, I pinged you with this on disc a while ago, but you're gone now, so here it goes again: do you know that any two involutions with the same (finite) number of fixed points on an orientable surface are conjugate by a diffeomorphism?
Good question. I think that's true, but let me think a bit, I don't know off the top of my head.
@Thorgott This is not true. $\Bbb Z_2$ acts freely on $T^2$ in two ways, one gives a quotient $T^2$ one gives a quotient Klein bottle.
So not conjugate. Anyway I have a centipede in my room and I need to kill it.
01:35
hmm, your example is convincing, but this was supposed to be true
probably forgot some hypothesis
maybe involution has to mean non-identity involution
What do you mean? Both Z_2 actions above are non-identity
Oh I see. My first action is just $(z, w) \mapsto (z, -w)$.
Wraps about twice in one component.
Not the identity guy
oh I see
so you get S^1xRP^1=T^2
If you wish :)
The identity guy is not free so I couldn't have meant that on retrospect, as well
there is a statement along these lines, but now I don't know anymore what it is supposed to be
Something must be true but I don't know it. Mike does.
01:55
@Thorgott i just mean which metric to use.
whichever you want
perhaps say what you are actually trying to do
Literally my example, let's say (R^3, (x^2 + y^2)g_{R^3}), if I look at M = S^2(1/2)embedded in R^3. To calculate curvature on S^2, do I use g = (1/2)^2g_{R^3} or keep it at g = (x^2 + y^2)g_{R^3}?
"curvature on S^2" is not a thing
you can only talk about curvature once you have specified a metric, it's not intrinsic to the smooth manifold
02:32
yes but do I use the induced metric or the metric in the ambient space is my question
what do you mean
the metric of the ambient space is not a metric on S^2
So then is the metric g = (1/2)^2g_{R^3} on S^2? And we use this to calculate curvature on S^2?
I am taking S^2 with radius 1/2 as an example
as I said before, the metric is not intrinsic
I cannot tell you which metric to take, because that is a meaningless question
there are many metrics on S^2, once you have chosen one, there is a notion of curvature
But if I am embedding S^2 in (R^3,g) doesn't it have to use an induced metric from R^3?
who's forcing you to?
02:46
the ambient space
my point is simply that your questions are rather meaningless unless you are omitting context
i m creating an example
but let's say I do have to use the metric g from R^3
does it reduce to something simpler like what I had g = (1/2)^2g_{normal}?
you're just multiplying the metric by a scalar?
that won't change the curvature
why wouldn't it change the curvature? Aren't I scaling everything by 1/4? i m guessing what i said is true? so if I change the sub manifold to another surface like x^2 + y^2 + 2z = 2^2, and i change the metric of the ambient space to something convenient like g = (x^2 + y^2 + 2z^2)g_{} = 2^2 g_{}
my question is inspired by the examples done in Peterson's page 3 of the book for context.
he also talks about induced metrics after embedding
03:10
It's good to see that my speaking without a mouth made it to the star board (which is correctly at the right of the screen).
:-) nice pun
i sea what you mean
nautically speaking
the egyptian goose had eggs in its nest today.
i mixed up right & left on my ppl flight test in ireland
ppl?
03:15
i constantly mix up right and left.
the inspector gave me a arule to remember: port is never green.
pp=prtivate pilot license
ah
right=green=starboard (all are longer than) left=red=port
i always remember starboard but often confuse my right
who knows why
confusingly the starboard tack on a sailboat is when the boom is over the port side of the boat.
confusing as a definition, not in practice
a lot of diagrams on the internet explaining port and starboard lights on planes use a figure depicting the plane as viewed from above. you know, the most common way you see planes in real life.
sometimes there isn't enough in the image alnoe to make clear that it's a top view. that's funny to me. i wish we lived in a nonorientable universe.
flatlands
boring book unfortunatley
03:27
was Flatland non-orientable?
i'm clearly living in opposite land at the moment. of course it is orientable. silly me.
last week's economist had a cartoon (wrong chose of description given the subject) involving a Möbius strip.
i can't keep track of orientation, but when i start to lose track of orientability, it's the universe telling me "that's enough wine for one day.'
i hit that limit last night. an irish friend came over to visit and much was consumed.
this morning required a lot of reevaluation.
i've been there. spending the morning trying to establish a continuous normal vector field.
i find exercise does it for me. it may involve a brief digestive discontinuity or the inverse of the consumption operation.
wonder how many brain cells get lost each time...
we have extremes in our house. my 20yo daughter drinks but my 17yo son will not.
03:36
that's good. he should give his brain a few more years to develop.
have not seen my organ mountain helicopter lately.
all i see are southwest flights these days. jetblue stopped its service to LGB last year.
airlines are getting affected by covid. aerlingus is shutting down shannon ops.
and reducing cork ops.
jetblue had basically been at war with the LGB authority for about ten years. constantly violating noise regulations and sitting on a bunch of unused flight slots to keep southwest out. covid was the last straw.
i had a flight home canceled in apr 2020 and made the mistake of getting voucher for my $900 instead of a refund. now there is a change the airline will go belly up.
03:45
which is a shame, LGB to OAK on jetblue was a great flight.
jetblue sounds like larry ellison when he used to fly into san jose.
he would land after the airport had shutdonw apparently.
that's what jetblue did. constantly. it was basically their standard operating procedure.
larry ellison is such a jerk i almost like him.
it is amazing to me that they can get away with that behaviour consistently.
i have multiple reasons for disliking him.
he doesn't have a posse of online fans who think he's cool. everybody knows exactly what he is.
oracle keeps a lot of IP lawyers in business. i'm for that.
i think he mad a mig of some sort.
the basis for a lot of oracles business is legal.
thankfully the eda world (with a few exceptions) was mostly free of that sillyness.
when they run out of creativity they go legal
03:49
it's an IP lawyers dream.
they've been out of creativity for a long, long time.
hahaha
i haven't got a dime from patents
well, i did early on when once company paid $5k per patent.
my wife's uncle has a company that makes very specialized electronics. i keep telling him he needs to get some IP going, sue people. he says that isn't how it works in his industry.
:-) sounds liek a decent fellow :-)
03:50
of course it isn't. not with that attitude it isn't.
he did get some demand letters once from a guy he had met at a trade show. we gave him some free advice on that.
it was to tell the guy to do something that it is anatomically impossible to do. it worked.
:-). our company used to get threats, we responded to the investors of the threatening company indicating our willingness to go legal to protect our good name.
silly stuff like 'you stole our idea'. when they had no idea of the tech incolved.
i hate wrestling with pigs.
that's my favorite. 'you stole our idea' when they have no idea how it works, or surprisingly commonly, no idea when it was first created and on the market.
one of this guy's letters was like that. "your product is infringing my patent filed in 2007 and issued in 2012." the product had been on the market since 2001.
i am ok with all sorts of stuff, but slander will bring out my dragon.
that is so stupid. you would think that they would do some dd first
maybe they are just bullying to see if it works.
@copper.hat or getting into a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
i need to analyse the sentence carefully to make sure i am not missing a pun :-)
03:57
at least it was only a letter. some people actually file suits like that sometimes. they have to hear it from a judge.
Rodents of unusual size?
I don't think they exist
,my fave movie of all time :-)
03:58
It is one of the greats
esp the left hand right hand scene.
with closely held companies, or companies that have gone through a chain of acquisitions or rebranding, it can sometimes take a lot of work to figure out when a product was first released. but that is definitely job 1 of suing someone on a patent. make sure they weren't selling the thing that you say is your invention before you came up with it.
There are just so many scenes, I can't pick out one.
i agree.
my daughter's fave as well.
04:00
i saw it in the theater when it came out. the torture device where they take years off of cary elwes's life was a little intense for a 7 year old. i still loved the movie.
i have a book about cary elwes somewhere
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
which word?
inconceivable!
i am soo slow :-)
i might watch it again tonight.
04:03
peter cook in that movie.
mawwaige.
few movies have the denseness of material
it was perfectly cast.
another one i liked (not nearly in the same league) was the gods must be crazy
every open scene intersects a joke nontrivially
@Thorgott Oops.
04:05
this is spinal tap is another one of my favorites. also with christopher guest.
i'll try and shut up for a while.
Impossible.
When I first saw Monty Python and the Holy Grail, I nearly passed out because I could not stop laughing.
Yes, This is Spinal Tap is another great movie
I've come for an argument.
the life of brian was 'banned' in ireland. which meant we had to see it.
04:07
Billy Crystal's character Miracle Max was priceless
my mom borrowed a bunch of monty python from the library's vhs collection when i was very sick in middle school. it was life changing.
that's not an argument, that's just contradiction.
Monty Python's Flying Circus as well as Fawlty Towers
i like john cleese
i nearly had a heart attack with laughter watching fawlty towers
My wife and I just finished watching all 12 of the Fawlty Towers
They are classic
Another was The Fall and Rise of Reginald Perrin
04:10
@copper.hat How many Romans?
Romani, Romani!
I took Latin in High school, so I enjoyed that part of the humor too
i have no lingustic talent whatsoever, but i liked latin
speaking of criminal defense shows, ITV's rumpole of the bailey was pretty good.
brilliant.
04:12
That's been around for a long time. Is that a reboot, or the old ones?
another (more slapstick) was Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em.
Michael crawford.
the old ones. shot on awful film stock where the lights leave trails on the screen.
I mentioned Father Ted to Ted S, but I don't know if he was listening
should we all be racists now? what's the church's position?
04:16
Speaking of Ted S, Hey @Ted !
its funny, in ireland many years ago it was discovered that a bishop (casey) had a grown up son in new york. however, people did not really care about that, but what incensed the populace was the fact that he basically disowned his son. start of a long downward slide.
bishop brennan had a secret family in california.
Hi robjohn
@leslietownes that was a reference to bishop casey :-)
most of what i know about ireland and catholicism i learned from father ted.
04:22
the sad part is that it was pretty spot on in many regards
i love that line.
Patinkin was brilliant.
Hey, Ted: I've been gone for a while because I've had to use my wife's computer. I have my own back now.
They renovated you?
I am less swollen now
04:25
kb logger installed.
Good …
So I now have a free reign again to ruin the chat!
i was arguing the case for PSQs again today :-)
unsuccessfully.
@robjohn we could use free rain!
to play the king
04:30
words that sound alike but are spelled different are called homophobes
i do my best to tilt the discourse away from punning and into malapropisms and it just isn't taking.
@TedShifrin that's for sure
i love the word malapropism.
I adore Mrs Malaprop
oh sorry I was asleep
I'll look up the Stoke's theorem in 4 dimensions video
have been making heavy use of those lectures
@copper.hat It will be an uphill battle, that's for sure.
04:45
it is a tough problem managing all that stuff.
approach0 is pretty cool.
I like to think of them as Poorly Stated Questions, rather than Problem Statement Questions.
However, in order to allow easier editing, problem statement questions are out
maybe for the first few days the rep reward goes if you find a dup, but after a few days answers get the rep :-). if you are a rep hunter like myself, of course.
until the question is deleted
there should be badges for not going on SE for x consecutive days/months.
9
Approach0 was down for a while. I assume it is back.
04:52
yup on approach0. i'm surprised se does not market swag
no mug anymore :-(. that was really the only good thing.
@copper.hat I think that something a bit similar already is in place. IIRC, if you have answer of score at least 3 and it remains visible after 90 days, you keep the rep even if the answer is deleted.
Bad memory - it is 60 days. Here is quid's answer about this: Does reputation change if an answer gets deleted due to deletion of original post by vote(s)?
thanks @MartinSleziak i think my concern was more the loss of an answer than the rep. i can't take the rep to the bank :-).
i guess i can't take the answer to the bank either :-)
I am not really sure what to respond to this. We would be going through the stuff that was chewed over many many times.
TBH it was a bit unclear what you mean, when I read your wording: "maybe for the first few days the rep reward goes if you find a dup, but after a few days answers get the rep."
Don't worry, I'm not looking for a response :-).
At first I thought that you're suggesting to reward finding duplicates - which was also discussed in the past: A possible solution to reduce answering of duplicate questions
There were some discussions concerning rewarding finding duplicates. On this meta: Encouraging duplicate hunters. On Meta Stack Exchange: Give an incentive for finding duplicate questions, Reward finding duplicate questions - +10, +2, -5. (The latter is tagged status-declined.) This is also a bit related, but it is about asking rather than answering duplicates: Why do you get reputation for asking a duplicate question?Martin Sleziak Feb 25 at 11:05
04:59
Oh, the latter comment was more about new questions to encourage looking for dups before a rep was awarded for an answer
@MartinSleziak Yes, that was more along the lines of what I meant.
I thought you were asking about an earlier comment.
05:17
@leslietownes Did your friend respond to yesterday's question?
yes he did not know about it
Ok no issues ..Can you connect me to him?
ok
Is there any website that you know of for these issues?
none that i know of
it's probably out there somewhere, maybe it's a question of finding the right search string.
05:22
ok
i'm revisiting charley munger's worldly wisdom
does he have a book? i like it when rich nutcases have a book
i've got a manifesto all ready to go, i just need to earn a few billion so people will be interested in reading it.
he is very grounded. i apparently have the twaddle tendency
no surprise to Ted.
it is short and worth a read.
anyone know how I can write $f(x \ y)$ with the inputs superposed to one another in mathjax?
my experiences involving manifestos is not the greatest :-)
05:24
Can anyone in the room assist me with Economics slightly?
what do you mean by superimposed?
i forgot about that. hah.
just one over the other
testing: $f \begin{pmatrix} x \\ y \end{pmatrix}$
ah
thanks!
05:25
that might not be the 'right' way of doing it. it places an f next to a matrix.
right, sort of a long way to do it
but it works
$\binom{x}{y}$?
$f\binom{x}{y}$
that works!
thanks!
might space f too far from the matrix to be function application. a free standing x over y, like \frac{x}{y} but without the bar in between them, is probably what you want
what the frac?
05:27
f((x,y)^T)
i used to very captious about such things :-)
you rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles.
\binom seems the answer for the busy working man
now i am sooo laid back i don't even mind $|$ instead of $\mid$.
you're at about the 3.5 glasses of wine mark. got it.
05:37
if we are talking average between tonight and yesterday, perhaps, but i actually have not had any alcohol since about 11pm last night :-)
hair of the dog might appear soon, but to stretch my legs (hip really) first.
the potential for a punny convo is just too much to leave
my daughter had a great time on the balance beam at the park today. she could climb onto the highest level of it all by herself, stand up, and walk down the levels, and walk up again. she fell off a few times but got right back on. i did nothing to help her. if anyone asks, it's because i want her to learn self reliance, but i was mostly just tired and wanted to sit down.
i understand completely
i tried to tell her that when she was stepping on the middle part she might have been forming a very shallow catenary. i'm not sure she followed that.
better than having her ask to go downstairs to the basement to play with the gimp
it'll be a few years before we watch that movie
05:42
my daughter used the GIMP drawing program to do little drawings when she was young, i had not realised she had internalised the name :-)
we'll probably start with jackie brown. she was born almost across the street from the del amo mall. i got food in the food court where they did the money handoff while waiting for her to be born.
i think the raciest thing we watched when they were young was top gear
almost all the locations in that movie have gentrified beyond recognition.
my daughter is never going to know that jeremy clarkson exists.
loved that show :-)
gather you are not a fan
it is more of a guilty pleasure.
05:46
telly tubbies bothered me more than anything else
i loved star in a reasonably priced car.
kristin scott thomas in, i forget, a honda civic? insane.
Sabine Schmitz :-)
Hi @randyorton
@Terry Tallon time no see
never seen those names around here.
06:46
show that f is differentiable.
Is this approach valid ?
note that if $x\neq y$ then $|{f(x)-f(y) \over x-y}| \le |x-y|$.
i don't see how you get that the sum or difference of those absolute valued things is zero.
when copper.hat and i are on the same page, i think it's a sign from the universe.
06:51
based on the inequality given
this is in rudin's chapter on differentiation. i got stuck on it until i realized, wait, this is the chapter on differentiation.
you can also do a proof by splitting the interval $[x,y]$ into $n$ pieces and using the triangle inequality.
if i know that $a \leq b$ and $c \leq b$ i don't know enough about $a \pm c$ to deduce that it's zero.
This is related to functional equation.
there's some nightmare story of someone developing an elaborate theory of some class of functions only to learn at their defense or soon after that the only functions in the class are constant. urban legend, i'm sure.
06:53
$|f(x)-f(y)| \le \sum_{k=0}^{n-1} |f(y+{k+1\over n}(x-y)) -f(y+{k\over n}(x-y)) | \le { 1 \over n} |x-y| $.
@copper.hat It is what the hint is also given but slightly different here.
I forgot the $K$ :-)
That is what I wrote :-)
@leslietownes ok
06:56
but the differentiation approach is easier
less messy, at least.
@copper.hat Oh ok and also in the hint I can't get the the first inequality mentioned by author
i.e this |f(a)-f(b)| < sigma ....
write $f(x)-f(y) = \sum_{k=0}^{n-1} f(y+{k+1\over n}(x-y)) -f(y+{k\over n}(x-y))$.
and use the $\triangle$ inequality
my main doubt is when you substitute it with K(b-a)^2 just for understanding what its magnitude is for the left part you get K (ne)^2 but for right part you get n(e)^2
As a side note, a bit of searching with Approach0 or SearchOnMath gives a few places where this is shown.
I mentioned that I forgot the $K$.
i am sure i & many others have answered this many times
If that's the case, you're in much better position to find some other posts about this.
actually i tried searching before answering above but could not find one.
i know they exist.
Did you try also searching with deleted:1 - jus tin case it was among the deleted posts?
i don't think they have got there yet?
07:07
@MartinSleziak Ok I don't know about it thanks @copper.hat Thanks I will once again think about it and tell you what is my doubt.
same basic idea
@MartinSleziak I used approach0 to search, i have had less luck searching on MSE
Yes, I just wanted to include a link with a readable title.
Ok I'll check there
it takes too long to page through my answers.
07:09
Well, with Approach0 you don't have to worry about deletions - if it is in corpus, it remains there also after deletion.
My luck with searching has been consistently poor.
Well, if there are some reasonable keywords, maybe using user:me in combination with those keywords could be a way to go.
Robjohn seems to know the search tricks.
But in this case, I am not sure which keywords/tags would lead to some results reasonably quickly (without many false positives).
I'm still looking for my answers as we speak :-)
sorry, i don't know how to add that link !
math.stackexchange.com/q/603291/27978
I am not sure what you mean by "add that link".
my apologies
i just duped your earlier link. i thought it was another distinct dup (whatever that means :-))
We can try in the sandbox - chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/1 (If you explain what you actually want to achieve, I might try to help.)
i'm just looking for similar answers. nothing else. i should really go to sleep :-)
07:16
Perhaps you meant that you linked to a comment rather than to question - and it got oneboxed? (So the link was displayed here.)
I should modify my daily schedule if I want to talk to you sometimes. :-)
Of course, the whole room (and site) is more active during US daytime.
no, i accidentally linked to one you had already put above, i glanced at it and i thought i saw something different. it was too late by the time i realised to delete it
:-)
it doesn't help that my typing is so awful
actually, it is good that many are closed and link to the above one.
ooh, that's a good idea for searching. never thought of that.
Well, it is one of the things mentioned in the FAQ post. :-)
i forget :-).
07:24
But I did not think of using it in this case either. (I would guess , not , as the choice of the tag when searching for this.)
The last few messages seem like something that would fit better in the searching chatroom. :-)
:-). only so much time in the day :-).
generally when i am trying to find a result for myself, i can find it quickly, but when i am searching for a dup, i am less successful. i do not understand why.
maybe there are more constraints when looking for a dup. who knows.
anyway, thanks for the tag suggestion :-). i'm going to sleep shortly!
goodnight
Good night!
@MartinSleziak approach 0 was really useful. @copper.hat yes differentiation method is easier to do the problem, and the please evaluate this (|\sum_{k=0}^{n-1}(f(x_{k+1})-f(x_k))|) given in
2
A: Given $|f(x) - f(y)| \leq 7(x-y)^2$ show $f$ is a constant function

Jean MarieLet us take two arbitrary real numbers $x$ and $y$. Let $h=y-x.$ Let us subdivide $(x,y)$ into $n$ equal length intervals $(x_k,x_{k+1})$ with $x_0=x$ and $x_n=y$, (thus all with length $\tfrac{h}{n}$): $$|f(x)-f(y)|=|\sum_{k=0}^{n-1}(f(x_{k+1})-f(x_k))|\leq \sum_{k=0}^{n-1}|(f(x_{k+1})-f(x_k)|...

sorry for disturbing your sleep!
this is wiggum reporting a 318. waking a police officer.
07:41
@CHEMOJEE I am not sure whether there is some question in your message...?
Probably you just wanted to let me know that you found an interesting post.
08:32
for single-variable calculus, for a discussion about the fact the derivative is a linear map, what sort of book am I looking for?
a number of high school level books implicitly advance this proposition. in the background, there is the fact that a number "is" a linear map on a one-dimensional vector space.
the problem with single variable calculus is that too many things are synonymous with other things because the dimension is so small that a number of different actors have to play the same roles.
huh, so high school stuff? it's meant to help me visualize the proof of the chain rule
i'm just noticing that function composition for a small enough interval looks like composition of linear functions
just look at compositions of linear or affine maps.
yeah.
cool, thanks
composition of linear maps is multiplication. it is literally multiplication in the one dimensional case. in higher dimensions it is matrix multiplication.
08:37
ah that explains the multiplication in the chain rule
just gotta sort out the details and make everything rigorous now
some beginning calculus books introduce the derivative as a linear map when they discuss differentials. if y = f(x) then dy = f'(x) dx. fixing a value of x, you take dx, presumed to be independent of x, as a variable. it is multiplied in linear fashion by the fixed number f'(x). the result is a linear function of the variable dx.
 
1 hour later…
09:44
nvm
can anyone write thesis for me
I will give 1 million dollar for 1 field medal awarded to me
00:00 - 10:0010:00 - 00:00

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