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19:14
how to check if two graphs are isomorphic? Is there some good approach?
Also can we say that a group of edges map one vertex to another vertex?
That makes no sense at all to me.
In general I don't think this is computable
{e1, e2, e3 , ... } set of edges e1 (v1) = v2 , ie, v1 v2 connected by edge
You can talk about an incidence matrix, but are you really trying to define edges as functions from vertices to vertices?!!
And if $v_i$ isn't incident to edge $e_j$, what is $e_j(v_i)$?
I bet I'm overcomplicating this problem, but I'd like to see what you all think
0
Q: Neighborhood shuffle problem

ClarinetistSuppose there is a street of houses lined up horizontally, numbered $1$ through $N$. My family lives in house $k$. My neighbor's family gets along with mine. Without loss of generality, let's assume the neighbor's family lives in house $k + 1$. One morning, every family wakes up at a different ho...

19:22
well, my teacher showed the K4 bipartite graph, it looked as if it's the Klein group that one studies in group theory
so I was trying to see if I can solve some graph theory problems eeasily by group theory
"It's" the Klein group? I do not follow.
@VisheshMangla the group isomorphism problem is very undecidable
so yeah, not gunna help so much
the complete bipartite graph of type 2,2 is the Cayley graph of the Klein four group with respect to any minimal generating system, I guess
OK, this is beyond my pay grade.
@BigSocks , if I create all possible labellings of vertices from my computer , i.e., make all adjacency matrix and if atleast 1 matches, can I say it's an isomorphism?
19:28
"computer of vertices"??
obviously , for the first graph any labelling can be chosen, and for the second graph all possible n! labellings are to be generated
if you know your 2 graphs are finite, this is kind of obviously computable
is there any way to reduce the n! labellings to something better?
any thing we can use if graph is complete?
or similarly for some special graphs maybe?
I want to calculate the difference a-b so that the polynomial $f(x)=x^5+ax+b$ is divisible by $(x-4)^2$ do we have to apply Euclidean algorithm and take the remainder equal to 0 ? Or is there also an other/easier way?
You should know other ways.
19:36
So @TedShifrin maybe if you wanna look at some basic algebra there's
https://chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/57010180#57010180
That's not basic enough for me.
that's fair- maybe when Thor or Astyx show up they can look
Thor was here not so long ago.
rats, just missed him then
Howdy folk.
19:45
One howdy back, @dc3rd.
@MaryStar For $x^5+ax+b$ to have a double root at $4$, its derivative at $4$ must also be $0$. That gives it all.
Ssshhhh, @robjohn.
@TedShifrin Sorry, I didn't realize you wanted to deal with this all afternoon. ;-p
That particular person has a way of getting too much done by us.
Note my particularly awkward passive construction.
@TedShifrin I have been dealing with the object of your passive construction for a long time.
19:48
Me too.
$\frac7{20}$ of a score, you'd think there'd be some progress.
@TedShifrin 7 years
Oh, that kind of score.
I guess you're feeling historical, what with the impeachment trial quoting the Constitution.
I was expecting a partial credit score, instead. :P
Speaking of history, I suppose I should figure out how many years I've been in chat. I do remember that Peter (before I talked him into becoming Pedro) dragged me in here for some multivariable analysis, which, as I recall, we never figured out.
@TedShifrin May 5, 2013
19:55
Damn, you're fast. I don't know how to do the search stuff in chat.
So ... almost 8 years.
@TedShifrin I looked at your chat profile
Oh, that's far cleverer than searching. I'm an ignoramus re MSE.
Had a quick question @TedShifrin, with regards to a question in the text and your favorite aspect....formalism. It was Sec 2.2 - 1)c: The question asks to determine if the set $C = \{(x,y): y > 0 \}$ is open, closed, or neither. So I've chosen to show it is open.

Using the idea of the open rectangle, I've worked out to let $\delta = |b|$, where I'm taking $\mathbf{a} = (a,b)$ to be the middle of my open rectangle.(I should probably use $\frac{|b|}{2}$ to be safe, but anyways...)

So if I let $\mathbf{x} \in R(\mathbf{a}, |b|)$ (where $R$ is for rectangle), then I only concern myself with
off to watch a webinar
Have fun, @Robjohn.
19:57
will do
@dc3rd I forget: Are we supposed to use rectangles rather than balls?
You definitely do not want $|y|$ in there.
@TedShifrin, it doesn't specify, I just used rectangle because it seemed easier in my eyes
I guess $\delta = \frac{|b|}{2}$ it is then
Well, the text specifically talks about balls in the definition?
Yes, most of the treatment is using balls.
just the one quick mention of rectangles.
So if you work with rectangles, you'll still have to fit a ball inside.
20:00
aren't balls rectangles when your metric is min or something?
I forget
I mean: I proved that an open rectangle is an open set, so you can make the argument ... but it's not from the definition.
@BigSocks: We're working only with the standard Euclidean metric.
oh ok
At any rate, I don't know what your notation even means, @dc3rd. What is $R(\mathbf a,r)$?
And I certainly don't follow your sentence. Supposing I knew what this meant, you say ... "let $\mathbf x \in S$. I'm having trouble actually showing $\mathbf x\in S$." Huh?
Ok. well if I use the open ball based off of my rectangle idea, $\delta = \frac{|b|}{2 \sqrt{2}}$.............$R(\mathbf{a}, r)$ was just my notation for the open rectangle.
What open rectangle?
You don't need absolute values, since we know the $y$-coordinates of points in the set are all positive. So, yes, show that the ball $B(\mathbf a,b)$ is contained in the set.
You need to show that for every $\mathbf x=(x,y)\in B(\mathbf a,b)$, we have $y>0$.
So your triangle inequality is the right idea, but you definitely do NOT want absolute values of $y$. If $\|\mathbf x-\mathbf a\|<b$, then don't we know directly that $|y-b|<b$? So what does this say?
20:07
The open rectangle contained in the set $C$.

As for my sentence of "let $\mathbf x\in S$. I'm having trouble actually showing $\mathbf x\in S$."..................I was asking this based off of the process of if we want to show a set is open, I have to choose a point in the neighbourhood of my ball, but I also have to verify that said point is in the neighbourhood based on the characteristics of my over arching set.
@dc3rd: "The open rectangle"? There is hardly a unique one. Do you see why I am picking at you for this?
You pick a point in the neighborhood (ball). You must then show that it is in the original set, yes.
So that is exactly what I wrote out 9-10 lines above.
Kind of.....see what you mean with regards to the rectangle. But to be sure I got the idea of it. You're implying that the distances of the open rectangle may not work.
@robjohn Ahh I see!! Thank you very much!! :-)
You keep saying the rectangle. I have no idea what rectangle you think you’ve defined.
I'm sticking with the ball because I know what the notation means.
As for knowing directly that $|y - b| < b$, then this implies $-b < y - b < b \rightarrow 0 < y < 2b$. But in essence We've shown $0 < y$.

Let's stick with the ball then
20:17
Yes, and all you had to show was that $y>0$ for the points in that ball!! Done.
Of course, you're right that if you choose any rectangle with height $b$, the same thing will work, but you haven't specified one yet. And, according to the definition, I'd still have to fit a ball inside. So, yes, a square fits, and a ball fits inside the square easily.
So I'm a little uneasy with part of my solution. If I'm letting $ r = |b|$, then I would have:

$||\mathbf{x} - \mathbf{a}|| = ||(x,y) - (a,b)|| \leq |x-a| + |y - b| < 2b$........this is why we have to use the idea of $\frac{r}{\sqrt{n}}$? or specifically in this case $\frac{b}{\sqrt{2}}$.
We don't have to.
Not here.
Don't write $\| x-a\|$ when that is a scalar quantity.
Why are you writing that inequality? It is not helpful.
What you want is $|y-b|\le \|\mathbf x-\mathbf a\|$.
I was trying to think about it in another way.....
You have the inequality going the wrong way for what we need.
Oh....I see what is being get at in this instance now.
20:30
The $\sqrt n$ stuff comes in when you're trying to relate the diagonal of a cube to the diameter of the ball.
Since we know component wise $|y-b|\le \|\mathbf x-\mathbf a\|$ (for the $x$ component as well), using the idea of the open ball the distance of each individual component will not be larger than the distance of all the components. And since we stated that the distance of $\|\mathbf{x} - \mathbf{a}\| < b$ then after the manipulation we establish the condition of the set $y > 0$.
Right. It really does help to think pictorially, although I will grant to @Thor that a picture does not a proof make.
Yes I agree, this is why I'm verifying these ideas with you, and thnk you by the way. Because I can do the "algebraic manipulation", but I've been getting to the point that I was applying it as an algorithm without thinking about what is truly happening
It takes practice to know immediately what the right approach is, but I still recommend drawing pictures to get ideas.
You mentioned I hadn't specified a rectangle. What was required to do that?
I guess also pictorially will help with the higher dimensions, it will just end up being a combination of pictures to bring the idea together.
20:38
You wrote the notation as if to suggest that I knew exactly what rectangle this defined. If you're only going to specify one real number, all I can think of is a square with that (half-)side centered at $\mathbf a$.
You derive higher-dimensional intuition from the lower dimensions. Sometimes it's misleading. For example, the volume of the $n$-dimensional ball of fixed radius goes to $0$ as $n\to\infty$.
Ok...I just briefly thought about this volume idea you mentioned and it is perplexing....lol........I won't play around with it right now and wait until the tools are sharpened.........
Nah. Don't.
Just briefly does it involve in some weird way the volume expression having an $n$ in its denominator?
It's the growth of factorial compared to exponential, yeah.
You can find this calculation in an exercise at the end of Chapter 7.
Ok....that concept satisfies the curiosity for now.
unitl chapter 7 no more shall be spoken on it
20:43
It's sort of like how the unit sphere will not be compact in infinite dimensions.
But anyhow, stay focused.
@TedShifrin I actually recommend people on MSE fairly regularly to draw pictures
LOL, you mean we have to agree yet again, @Thor? Damn.
I know you love Rudin's baby analysis book with not a single picture :D
compact using the closed and bounded notion or covering notion?...........anyways........focus.
Not closed and bounded. That's only for subsets of $\Bbb R^n$ with the usual metric. (There's a lie in that sentence.) But every sequence having a convergent subsequence will do, @dc3rd.
@Thorgott, liking and the thing you like is not a single picture?...........masochist.
20:45
hey, @Thorgott - in case you wanted to look at some basic algebra: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/57010180#57010180
You should take my sentences with a small grain of salt, @dc3rd.
Ah, @BigSocks has pounced.
lol
Thorgott is too easy a target to pass up
and just as I walked back to my computer from lunch
hi chat
20:46
hiya @Astyx
@TedShifrin especially the treatment of differential forms!
@BigSocks I don't get your first confusion
@BigSocks $(x-a)^n(y-b)^m$ is always in the ideal generated by $x-a$ and $(y-b)^e$
That it seemed odd they wrote $M_i \subset (x-a, (y-b_i)^{e_i})$ when I am fairly certain $M_i \subset (x-a)$ is true
$(y-b_i)^{e_i}\notin (x-a)$
20:51
and here's where things get weird
sanity check: if $V,W$ are complex vector spaces, then $\overline{V\otimes W}=\overline{V}\otimes\overline{W}$, yes? (the bar is conjugate structure and the tensor product is over $\mathbb{C}$)
@Astyx then how do you get something like $(x-a)(y-b_i)^m$ where $m < e_i$?
I'm looking for the Fourier transform of $$\tilde{\chi}(\omega)=\frac{Nq^2}{Vm\epsilon_0}\frac{1}{\omega_0^2-\omega^2-\mathrm{i}\omega\gamma}=\frac{Nq^2}{Vm\epsilon_0}\frac{1}{2\sqrt{\omega_0^2-\frac{\gamma^2}{4}}}\left(\frac{1}{\omega+\mathrm{i}\frac{\gamma}{2}+\sqrt{\omega_0^2-\frac{\gamma^2}{4}}}-\frac{1}{\omega+\mathrm{i}\frac{\gamma}{2}-\sqrt{\omega_0^2-\frac{\gamma^2}{4}}}\right) \ .$$
So I'm looking for $\chi (t) = \int_{-\infty}^{\infty}\tilde{\chi}(\omega) e^{i\omega t} \mathrm{d}\omega$. Are there any tricks to simplify this integral? I have not taken any course in complex analysis yet.
@BigSocks it's a multiple of $x-a$
@Thorgott aha, so $y-b_i \notin (x-a)$ but $(y-b_i) \in k[x,y]$ of course, so you can just multiply $(x-a)$ by those powers.
@Astyx I just realized what this is meant to convey
you can't get $0$ powers of $(x-a)$
so you need at least one $(y-b_i)^{e_i}$ in there for $M_i$.
hmm but how do you get any $(y-b_i)^m$ for $m< e_i$?
those I don't think you can get
I guess this is why $M_i$ is a subset and not equal to this ideal
wait no, opposite
yeah my question stands- how do you get that?
20:58
I don't get it
how claimed you can get that
nvm, I wrote it wrong in the follow up- it's $M_i^{e_i}$ that is contained in that ideal
@Thorgott yes, the conjugate vector space has elements v' with iv' = (-iv)'. Then the simple tensors in Vbar o Wbar are v' o w' and i(v' o w') = (iv') o w = (-iv)' o w = v' o (iw') = v' o (-iw)', both of which are equal to (-i(v o w))'
yeah it was not claimed. Ok I think I am squared away with that one inclusion
aka I'm checking that the complex structure agrees by checking that it agrees on the simple tensors, which span the tensor product
21:00
the other thing I am still shaky about - with the $g(x,y)$
@Mike ok, that's what I was thinking as well, thanks for confirming
@schn I don't think there is an easy way to compute this by hand without complex analysis. It's possible to "guess" the inverse and appeal to Fourier inversion, though.
@Thorgott thanks for the reply. Is there an easy way to compute it actually using complex analysis? It's a problem related to electrodynamics, where $\chi$ is the real (time dependent) or complex (frequency dependent) electric susceptibility.
I haven't done this in quite a while, but it should just be an application of the residue theorem on an appropriately chosen contour
@schn suceptibility goes to zero as frequency goes to infinity
also maybe you relate it to polarization somehow. memory is foggy
21:16
@BigSocks good to know
Hello. When solving differential equations, when can we assume things about... heat? For example, if we model something about how coffee cools over time, then this problem states that it's never going to be lower than room temperature, but when can we assume that? It's not true for all things in the world that they're never going to be lower than room temperature
@polite The axiom here is Newton's Law of Cooling.
Oh okay, I should learn Physics
Of course, if the coffee is ice water, its temperature will stay below room temperature.
So if $V,W$ are complex vector spaces, $\overline{V}\otimes_{\mathbb{C}}W$ should be isomorphic to $V\otimes_{\mathbb{C}}W$ as real vector spaces (since the $\mathbb{R}$-action on both is the same) and the orientations should be the same/reverse depending on whether the product of the complex dimensions of $V,W$ is even/odd?
21:21
It's intuitive from thermodynamics, but it's just stated as a fact in the math textbooks. The substance cools at a rate proportional to the difference between its temperature adn the ambient temperature. This is even somewhere in the exercises of Chapter 18 of Spivak, probably.
Oh great
So hold on, it is not an axiom?
very odd to think of axioms in physics
Sorry, what you wrote seems kind of similar to Newton's Law of Cooling
I'm saying that a physical chemist or physicist could argue it from thermodynamics. To a math student, it's an axiom.
Duh. Look up 12 lines.
No I know, I am just saying that you said it's an axiom and also an exercise
21:23
No, it is quoted in the exercises, as in all math textbooks. And then you have to solve problems.
I see, thanks
Geez, people.
Can someone help we find the kernel in math.stackexchange.com/questions/4019318/…
only the dimension of the first factor counts*
but even then, the statement has to be wrong, yet I'm not seeing why
@somebody619 What's the precise issue?
21:40
@Thorgott How do I show that the kernel is $\mathbb{Z}(p^t)$ rigorously?
What have you tried?
Consider $x \in \ZZ(p^{\infty})$, i.e., $$x=\overline{\frac{a}{p^m}}\, \text{ where } 0 \leq a < p^m \text{ and } \gcd{(a,p^m)}=1\, .$$
Then, note that if $x \in \text{ker }\phi$, then $$\overline{\frac{a}{p^{m-t}}}=\phi\left(\overline{\frac{a}{p^m}}\right)=\phi(x)=\overline{0}\, , \text{ or equivalently } \frac{a}{p^{m-t}} \in \ZZ$$ from which it follows that $a=0$ or $t \geq m$.
looks good to me, why are you not satisfied with this?
Please help me conclude. I am quite confused about how to end the proof.
The conclusion is already there. Which part are you confused by?
21:47
I want to be sure. $a=0$ implies $x=overline{0}$. When $t \geq m$, then $\displaystyle x=\overline{\frac{a}{p^m}}=\overline{\frac{a\, p^{t-m}}{p^t}} \in \ZZ(p^{t})$.
This shows that $\text{ker }\phi \subset \mathbb{Z}(p^t)$.
it shows equality
all these implications are already equivalences
How? This is the exact problem I am having.
which one are you doubting?
21:51
To do that would require that we show that $\mathbb{Z}(p^t) \subset \text{ker } \phi$.
I'm telling you all the implications you have written down so far are in fact equivalences. For which implication do you not see this?
Thank you. I think I was overthinking.
22:07
Question about an algebraic manipulation. I wanted to show: $D = \{(x,y): y < 0 \}$ is open.

So taking my ball $B(\mathbf{a}, b)$, where $\mathbf{a} = (a,b) \subset D$, let $\mathbf{x} \in B(\mathbf{a}, b)$, where $mathbf{x} = (x,y)$.

I'm having issues manipulating the algebra. I know for the final expression to show this set is open I need to get:

$\text{something} < y < 0$. My issue is the algebra. so looking at this second component

$b > |y-b|$, I can't let the radius of my ball be $-b$ because then the statement wouldn't make sense. So what step am I missing?
$b$ is a negative number here, is it not?
So a radius cannot be negative.
uh oh....so I'm here again, @TedShifrin. I know I can just use the idea that the set $D$ is just the negative of the set I proved previously, but I was just trying to do it explicitly to get more comfortable with the right algebraic manipulation.
Yes, yes, I'm not complaining about that!
So what is the correct radius of the ball?
exactly, $b$ would be negative.....so if $b$ is negative, the radius could be $-b$.
Right, you want the radius to be the distance from $b$ to $0$, which is $|b|=-b$.
There's a reason Spivak spends a lot of time on absolute value and manipulating the triangle inequality in his first chapter :) This stuff does show up.
OK, so you have $|y-b|<-b$. How do you conclude that $y<0$?
22:13
Well from there, the rest of the manipulation is just as what we talked about before.
Except that negative numbers trip people up :)
@TedShifrin This is EXAcTLY it!
The easiest is to say $-(-b)<y-b<-b$ and add $b$ to everything.
Just as you should have done earlier.
Multiplying inequalities by negatives is another pitfall.
Keeping track of $b$ being negative is the tedious part because we already assumed it is negative so we can't attach a minus sign to it...
Reinforced lesson of day: be acutely aware of the elements of your set.
If it helps you, you can write $b=-\beta$ for $\beta>0$.
22:19
I think I might use that....
@TedShifrin do elliptic function fans here?
@Thorgott regarding my earlier posted problem about the complex integral with the two poles $i\gamma \pm \sqrt{...}$. If $\chi(t)=0$ for $t<0$, does this possibly simplify the integral $\chi (t) =\frac{1}{2\pi} \int_{-\infty}^{\infty}\tilde{\chi}(\omega) e^{-i\omega t} \mathrm{d}\omega$?
there are no poles on the real line (and if there were, it wouldn't be integrable)
I don't think that additional assumption simplifies things significantly, but again, I haven't done the computations
22:55
@anakhro Huh?
Of course I just realize now I wrote that wrong
@TedShifrin I meant "are there any elliptic function fans here?"
Sorry, I apologize for this short circuit
Or maybe it was "do you know of any"
Oh. I am not knowledgeable about the esoteric sorts of elliptical integrals. If you're talking about meromorphic functions on a curve of genus $1$, then maybe.
Who knows what I meant to say.
I mean like $\wp(z)$ and stuff.
Stuff?
Yes, doubly-periodic functions on the plane = meromorphic functions on an elliptic curve (built out of the period lattice).
Doubly periodic functions...
and stuff.
22:57
Years ago, I taught some of this "stuff." Right now, I remember nothing much.
Yes, all these things. They trouble me greatly.
Do you know of any good exposition/book on it?
What's $\wp(z)$ ?
Weierstrass pe function
A quantum physics grad student is writing me to help him figure out stuff with Berry curvature. So my brain is exploding.
phys. ed was never so confusing
22:58
So instead of rambling about "stuff" and "confusing," why don't you ask something specific?
@TedShifrin don't you find this odd
$\wp$ can be used to explicitly parametrize the cubic curve.
No, @BigSocks. Most people don't remember things they hardly ever use.
I mean, I can reconstruct most of it, but not instantaneously.
I suppose if you can reconstruct it it isn't so bad
In general, I typically had a lot of basic analysis, algebra, topology, geometry, complex analysis, and even some applied stuff at my fingertips throughout most of my career. Most mathematicians probably do not.
Well I had a function $f = \wp' - a\wp - b$, and I was asked to show that I can choose a,b so that it has zeros at $z_1,z_2,-z_1-z_2$ (where all are non-zero).
I found a,b so that it works for z_1 and z_2
But the -z_1-z_2 part is confusing me and I think it might be under my nose
23:03
Oh, the rest is the addition law for $\wp$, @anakhro.
well I am trying to prove the addition law...
Oh.
Have you written down what the argument principle gives you?
Integrating around the period parallelogram?
I don't think so, I will try that.
Thanks!
That's always the game with doubly-periodic.
See, @BigSocks, I'm not totally hopeless :D
@TedShifrin certainly not, no. you still seem to be tip top :)
23:07
For what it's worth, I think you have a lot of potential Ted
LOL, @Astyx. I'll retire and you take over for me!
I'll have to learn about the Weierstrass function first
You can do Riemann-Roch on elliptic curves without Riemann Roch :)
I should understand what Riemann-Roch is about soon enough
My favorite interpretation is very much not what you'll be seeing, but I learned it from Griffiths and it's beautiful. Riemann Roch is about osculating spaces at certain points on the canonical embedding of the curve.
23:15
I have to go to bed rn but I'd love to discuss it someday
@TedShifrin what even is this
Dors bien, @Astyx.
Merci, à plus tard!
Geometric interpretation of dimensions of linear systems on curves, @BigSocks.
mmm that's still above my pay grade
23:18
Yup.
hopefully I can climb my way through Lorenzini and get there- apparently he talks about it in chapter9
It's fundamental for doing anything with algebraic curves, yes.
(and I am hardly on ch3...)
Do you still love the book?
I do! It's very nice- I just get stuck a bit
23:22
Getting stuck is part of learning.
absolutely- I have learned a loooot about algebra that I should have known by now
You should email Dino and tell him he got 10 cents of royalties because I recommended you buy his book :)
Riemann-Roch is about, uh, something about algebra, dunno
2
Dimensions of sheaf cohomology groups, @Thor. (One viewpoint)
@TedShifrin omg the AMS is really harsh
23:24
(Classic geometric viewpoint is what I wrote above about Griffiths.)
LOL, probably more than 10 cents, @BigSocks.
hahaha oh ok, I was taking things too literally
But I'm sure he'd be glad to hear I'd propagandized for him.
that's the viewpoint I will take once I know sheaf cohomology
But once you have Serre duality, it's about $H^0$ and so the cohomology disappears and you can interpret just in terms of dimensions of natural vector spaces.
Whence dimensions of linear systems.
For the set $E = \{(x,y): y > x\}$ I think I have a $\delta$ that works, but I'm not too comfortable with it.

Let $\mathbf{x} = (x,y) \in B(\mathbf{a}, \delta)$, where $\mathbf{a} = (a,b)$ and $\delta = b - x$.

Then $|y-b| < b-x \Rightarrow x < y < 2b - x$

The reason I'm not comfortable with this is because it is depending on $x$, now I know my $\delta$ would be dependent on the position of my point, but even though it "looks" like it could work, I don't feel it is valid. I did try to build off the idea of the previous questions though
23:31
yeah, I know the low-tech version of the statement
but I haven't grokked the content
@dc3rd You cannot have $x,y$ appearing in your $\delta$. You can only use $a,b$.
That's a fundamental logic principle.
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