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00:00
@TedShifrin sci hub?
Yeah it's on sci hub
ok, I buy that the metric is locally diagonalizable, because that's true for each factor
But thank you that makes sense!
why is it not conformally flat?
charts on the product are given by products of charts on the factors and these can be made conformal on both factors
You have to use the same factor!
00:02
@Astyx wait why is $r \notin \mathfrak{m}$
just thought it was arbitrary
Because $x\notin \mathfrak m^2$
oooo that is good
EM4
EM4
Question:

Let $A = {2,|A|}$. What is |A|?

is the answer never ending.
You can't have the same factor to turn $+1$ curvature into $0$ and $-1$ curvature into $0$ simultaneously. I would bet. I'd have to write stuff down.
@EM4 What's the context?
00:03
I am scared to ask
Yeah I'm convinced that the hypothesis on S is unnecessary
conformally flat just means I have conformal charts, no?
But I'm surprised that it's the second time I see this superfluous assumption
EM4
EM4
what you mean by context @Astyx?
I hope it does not give you too many nightmares
00:04
@EM4 Where is this from?
and, on the level of linear maps, product of conformal maps is conformal
EM4
EM4
its from my discrete math @Astyx.
Also the Yang paper is only for Riemannian manifolds, do you know if there's an answer / result for psuedo-Riemannian manifolds?
I mean if Thorgott agrees with me, I'm quite confident in my conviction
@EM4 What does that notation mean?
2,|A|
EM4
EM4
|A| is the cardinality of set A.
so set A = {2, |A|}
00:08
that looks like a circular definition to me
Oh ok
\{ and \} give $\{$ and $\}$ in latex
I was very confused because they didn't show
But yeah, what Thorgott said
EM4
EM4
the answer is circular definition, huh?
Hi @TedShifrin, had some small questions, I'll add comments to what I've done for each (hopefully this isn't too long)

1) For question 12) b) from Sec 2.1 - you ask to show that the curve $\mathbf{g}(s_{0},t)$ corresponding to the function $\mathbf{g}(s,t) = \begin{bmatrix} \frac{st+1}{st-1} \\ \frac{s-t}{st-1} \\ \frac{s + t}{st-1} \\ \end{bmatrix}$

for this one I'm a little stuck. I don't know if there is another form of the expression to use, but based on what I know to show a set of points is a line I have to show that $\mathbf{x} = t \mathbf{u}$.
00:27
@Astyx so you get $1/a \in R$ so you get $1/x \in R$, so $R=K$, and $S$ gets squished between>
@Thorgott Was something interesting here
just some algebra
and the question which manifolds admit orthogonal coordinates
ok, im trying to figure out why homotopic maps induce isomorphic pullback bundles and am not quite seeing it. i was told this is easy. am i being stupid, was i lied to or both?
5
Q: Homotopic maps induce isomorphic pullbacks of a principal bundle. How functorial can this be?

Aaron Mazel-GeeMore precisely, I'm trying to show that the groupoid $\mathscr{B}G(X)$ of principal $G$-bundles over $X$ and isomorphisms is equivalent to $\Pi_1(BG^X)$. It seems like the right direction to try to construct my functor is $\Pi_1(BG^X) \rightarrow \mathscr{B}G(X)$, since given an actual $G$-bundl...

?
bruh, alien language
00:44
nvm it's all nuts
@Thorgott what are orthogonal coordinates
@Thorgott This is only true for paracompact base lol
induced frame is orthogonal
we have a metric, of course
You need to be able to prove that every bundle on X x [0,1] is isomorphic to a pullback of projection to X
It's a lemma in Hatcher's VBKT notes
I don't consider it trivial
urgh
I think if $X$ is compact, I can always partition $[0,1]$ into subintervals $I_1,...,I_n$ such that each $X\times I_i$ is trivial and then proceed inductively
It's a trick, you need to be able to prove that on X x [0,eps) using local triviality
You don't mean trivial there but otherwise yeah
00:48
hm, I did mean trivial
no wait, that's obvious nonsense
what was i thinking again
Pullback bundle of projection to X
01:31
I have no idea what this means
please help :/
It wants me to prove that 0*x = 0???
@dc3rd Well, the line doesn't go through the origin, of course. You can do it by algebraic manipulation. Perhaps less tricky is to show that $\partial\mathbf g/\partial t$ doesn't change direction. FYI, I like this question because it gives a parametrization of the hyperboloid where both the $s$-curves and the $t$-curves are the lines, but it's sort of a curiosity and not mainstream. Not at all essential.
@10Replies What does it mean to say that the $\mathbf v_i$ span $\Bbb R^n$?
@MikeM — you didn't forsake us after all :)
Give me time
Nah, I was not happy about it.
The question @Thor alluded to (which I still do not really know the answer to) is: When does a Riemannian manifold admit charts so that $g_{ij}$ is a diagonal matrix?
Of course, I know the answer if it's a scalar multiple of the identity.
Obviously, no problem in dimension 2 and Deane Yang and Dennis deTurck proved in a paper that it holds in dimension 3 for every Riemannian manifold. I'm still uncertain what's going on in general.
@TedShifrin. Looking at the diagram from the text I had a feeling of that and felt that the lines would all have to be added to some "constant" vector because of just that.

BLASPHEMY!...All math is essential.... :p
01:40
@TedShifrin uhhh it means that V_i goes up to n?
I'm honestly completely confused
If you're taking a linear algebra course, the first thing you need to do is write down a neat sheet of definitions. You must learn what the important terms mean. And you must know those, backwards and forwards.
You don't get to tell me you don't know.
@dc3rd: The "constant" vector depends on $s_0$, of course. You have to do some tricky division of polynomials if you're going to do it algebraically, but it's certainly do-able. But seeing that the direction vector doesn't change direction is easier.
@Ted so, why is the product of conformally flat things not necessarily conformally flat?
Because you get two separate PDE to solve for the one multiplying factor.
This is not just linear algebra.
LSS
LSS
Guys, what is your recommendation after QM?
Gr or field theory?
quantum field theory*
LSS
LSS
01:44
???
We're not the right people to ask, since we're not physicists. But GR is a huge step cuz all the math.
you seem to be still in qm1. there is a qm2 usually. probs take that
(I kinda used to do physics)
LSS
LSS
@BigSocks qm i mean Sakurai nivel, is this qm2 or qm1?
yeah I didn't use that book, but what I said still holds
@TedShifrin...yea I was looking at some sort of tricky division to try and isolate $t$ and it was looking ugly

Well the other two questions came from your P-Set 4:

A) c) verifying that the curve $x^{3} + y^{3} = 3xy$ which I parametrized in an earlier portion is symmetric.

B) Given the surface $z = f(x,y) = xy$ showing that the lines with direction vectors $\mathbf{u} = (1,0,b)$ and $\mathbf{v} = (0,1,a)$ and point $P = (a,b,ab)$ are enitrely contained in the surface.

for A) What definition are we using to define symmetry?
01:49
I had to go look at the problem. I said "the curve has an obvious symmetry." So I intended that you determine what it is, first of all. Doesn't the equation suggest something?
Problem B is related to the hyperboloid question. The saddle surface and the hyperboloid of one sheet are "the only" doubly-ruled surfaces other than planes.
no wait, I just realized that I was being very silly
the product of conformal maps needn't be conformal, even at the level of linear algebra
Right, because the scalars may be different.
exactly, yeah
I think Balarka misunderstood Moishe's answer to that question. That condition is not saying vanishing Weyl tensor.
For reasons I explained to you.
nah, Balarka computed this by himself some time ago, I don't think he knew that answer
01:53
Well, I think it's just wrong, or else Moishe would clearly have said it.
but yeah, it seems like there was something wrong about it
will have to ask him about it when he comes by here tomorrow
As I said, saying $T_{1234}=0$ (for orthonormal bases) has nothing to do with knowing that $T_{1212}=0$.
Ask him why my example isn't a counterexample, too. :)
@dc3rd Did you see my answer? I forgot to ping you.
@TedShifrin This is good advice, I'm going to give this advice.
@TedShifrin, I did....I was just thinking. Trying to figure out "what the equation suggests".........and also what it means to determine the symmetry. .........

The only thing that pops out to me about the equation is that it is close to but not exactly $(x - y)^{3}$....but I don't think this is your intention
I still think there's not enough time. :( But I guess partly the point is to get people to get a feel for everything so they can truly master it as they keep using it.
01:58
2
Q: Example of a function $f:\mathbb{R}^n\to\mathbb{R}$ that is not a subversion for all open $U$

MrcrgThe definition of submersion is: Let $f:U\to\mathbb{R}^n$ a differentiable function defined in the open $U\subset\mathbb{R}^m$, if for all $x\in U$, $f'(x)$ is an surjective linear transformation then $f$ is a submersion. I have to find a open function $f:\mathbb{R}^2\to\mathbb{R}$ of class $C^...

great typo
A function is a reversal of expectations if ...
A vector field that isn't conservative will be called...
@MikeMiller I never literally said it in my classes, BUT they knew that 1/6 the points on the final exam would be stating definitions.
Can't do that during the online era. Have to make sure they can use the definitions.
Yes, of course. I think it's good advice regardless :)
@dc3rd: You're thinking too hard. Look how $x$ and $y$ appear in the equation.
@MikeM Of course they had to use them, too. :) I was always pleased a few people got all the points snd upset that some got only half (even with partial credit).
02:05
@TedShifrin I think I got it but I don't want to spoil it for @dc3rd
Liberal, of course, @Thor. My students made that up decades ago.
$f(x,y) = ?$
@dc3rd
@BigSocks, give me a sec I'm working something out right now.
yeah, but that's too obvious
calling them subversive should be the new hip thing
@dc3rd It takes no work.
02:09
ted i have come to profess my love
for you
my love for you is complex
Okay, I am going to bed, goodnight all.
ROFL ... silly anakhro.
Well...........I did this assuming my parametrization is correct:

$(\frac{3t}{(1+t^{3})})^{3} + (\frac{3t^{2}}{(1+ t^{3})})^{3} = 3 (\frac{3t}{(1+t^{3})}) (\frac{3t^{2}}{(1+ t^{3})})$

and then simplified.....
The question was first to see the obvious symmetry, then to see it in terms of $t$.
Hmmm....well then I need to go back and see the obvious symmetry then. So generally speaking then. The curve is symmetric through the line $y = x$. Is that what you mean by seeing the symmetry?
YES
Now how does that symmetry show up in terms of $t$?
02:20
Ok....so are you hinting that it should be of the form $(-y(t), x(t))$?
with the respective parametrizations of my $x$ and $y$ variables
No, if one point on the curve is given by $t$, what is its mirror image given by?
some function of $t$
Your negative is wrong, right?
What function?
HINT: what is the meaning of $t$?
what is the meaning of $t$?...............as in $t \in \mathbb{R}$? it is a parameter.
Look carefully at the problem .
02:26
oh...$t$ represents the slope of a line through the origin
Aha!
Keep going, then.
then that would mean $(-x(t), y(t))$ ...I say this because the direction of the curve is going in the direction of $y = -x$,
No.
What does symmetric about $y=x$ mean?
Ok my problem is I "don't know what it means to be symmetric" in this scenario and as a result I'm just here shooting in the dark...

So the curve is symmetric along the line $y =x$, $t$ represents the slope of said line. I used $y = tx$ to find the parametrization above
If you reflect, where does $(a,b)$ go?
No shooting. Please.
02:38
if I reflect along $y = tx$ or if I reflect in an axis?
No, you reflect across $y=x$.
well...using "a mirror"....I see that $(a,b) \to (-a,b)$
Really?
Where does $(1,1)$ go?
I'm confused.......so you're asking me where $(1,1)$ goes in relation to the reflection along $y = x$.
In relation to? Yes, when you reflect across that line.
Drawing pictures on paper might be good.
02:47
Yea I am actually drawing pictures. I'm most likely not treating the reflection correctly.
Go back and review reflection.
I mean, algebraically, what does the symmetry mean? @BigSocks asked you: $f(x,y)=$ what?
Ha.....was just doing that.
Well reflection across $y = x$ means that $(a,b) \to (b,a)$.
There you go.
Well I'm not done yet.......I still have to verify this. So in terms of my parametrization I now would have $(y(t), x(t))$....but what needs to be verified?
03:01
What does this reflection do to $t$?
What do you mean?
03:14
Think about it.
03:24
So originally we were given $y = tx$.........reflecting my curve in the line $y = x$ changes my points from $(x(t),y(t)) \to (y(t), x(t))$. So we are doing this because we want to show my curve is symmetric along the line $y = x$. Being symmetric along $y = x$ means..........(gap)........which affects $t$ by.....(another gap)...........
@TedShifrin @Thorgott There was some dispute?
A @Balarka: Yes. I'm sure Thor misquoted you. :)
@TedShifrin Any traceless 4-tensor which is zero on 4 distinct orthogonal directions vanish on any 4 orthogonal directions.
Sure. That doesn't mean it vanishes identically.
I'm confused, why do you say that?
(It is early in the morning for me)
I am claiming $T(e_i, e_j, e_k, e_l) = 0$ for distinct $i, j, k, l$ implies $= 0$ for all $i, j, k, l$.
03:34
Because @Thor said you said this implied conformally flat.
No, you're wrong.
ok...... @TedShifrin....I'm drowning here....what is it that I'm missing to be able to think this out more smoothly? Because this is sad right now and I'm beyond frustrated in myself
When you reflect $y=tx$ about the line $y=x$, what line do you get?
I get $(tx, x)$
@Ted: Let $M$ be any element of $\mathfrak{so}(n)$. Then $T(Me_i, e_j, e_k, e_l) + T(e_i, Me_j, e_k, e_l) + T(e_i, e_j, Me_k, e_l) + T(e_i, e_j, e_k, Me_l) = 0$. Plugging $M = \delta_{ik} - \delta_{ki}$ gives $T(e_i, e_j, e_k, e_l) + T(e_i, e_j, -e_i, e_l) = 0$. So fixing $j, l$, $T(e_k, e_j, e_k, e_l)$ are all equal for $1 \leq k \leq n$. But summing over $k$ gives me trace, which is also zero, so these terms are all zero.
So in particular you get for example $T_{kjkj} = 0$.
So what's the slope, @dc3rd?
Why the Lie algebra here instead of the group?
I th8nk I claim $S^2\times \Bbb H^2$ is a counterexample.
03:46
The slope would be $\frac{1}{t}$?
@TedShifrin I get this by differentiating $SO$-invariance of $T$, no?
Right.
Yeah, I figured that out. Did you continue to use all indices distinct? I just do not believe the result.
I don't like the way I worked it out........it was extremely clunky.
Yeah, I continued to use $i, j, k, l$ distinct.
I think it's right!
Your basic geometry sucks, @dc3rd.
I don't. Surely whoever stated the theorem and Moishe would have said conformally flat instead of the arcane condition.
03:49
It really does.......THis is going to suck, but I think I need to take a few weeks and go through all the fundamentals of geometry.........sigh.............
Draw a right triangle with slope $t$ and reflect it.
I don't remember where I saw this result to be honest.
But I have a complete proof written somewhere
@Balarka: see the links above. I just do not have intuition for this Riemannian stuff, but I don't believe $S^2\times \Bbb H^2$ is conformally flat.
reflect it through $y = x$?
03:53
@TedShifrin But you're saying the Weyl tensor of this guy vanishes?
Trace of curvature is $0$.
Ah OK, clearly it has diagonalizable coordinates
Just take the product of isothermal coordinates on both factors
But the curvature tensor violates your conclusion.
Yes, that's true. But the proof you gave can't be right. $R_{ijkl}=0$, but nonzero curvature.
I want back to complex geometry :) Or I should retire retire.
Oh yeah, @Balarka, and of course it has orthogonal coordinates, but no way it's conformally flat?
Yeah, so actually, this is a good example. Let me think what's wrong.
I understand your curvature point as well. One second
Sure. Take a week :)
04:02
This is definitely aimed at me 😔
No, nothing to do with you.
I must be missing something
why isnt S^2 x H^2 locally conformally flat
Or not,
so you told me to draw a right triangle with slope $t$. The slope of this triangle is $t = \frac{y}{x}$. So to reflect this triangle would mean to switch my $(x,y) \to ((y,x)$. The slope of this reflection is then $t = \frac{x}{y}$.
Is it? I have no Riemannian intuition. It seems intuitively like a too overdetermined system of PDE.
Not the same $t$, of course, @dc3rd.
04:08
the metrics on both manifolds can be written in isothermal coordinates
But different scaling factors, not?
Yes, how do I scale simultaneously to get both with curvature $0$?
I mean. If $a = cb, a' = c' b'$ then you cannot say $(a, a')$ is a multiple of $(b, b')$
Which is the point Ted is making :)
@BalarkaSen so?
then what $t$ is it then? @TedShifrin
04:11
conformally flat just means there's some function so that $g= f(dx_1^2+\cdots)$
oh hm
its just a warped product I guess
did anyone compute the weyl tensor
It's $t’ = 1/t$.
It's always 0 for diagonalizable metrics, which this one is, right?
weyl vanishing implies conformally flat in 4d
See!
That's what I proved.
Ted thinks I am wrong
But this is a good example
I don't understand it
Yes. I still think the curvature tensor is a counterexample to your proof.
04:14
is it always zero for diagonalizable metrics
That was the question and I know nothing other than Moishe's answer to a question.
Ok @TedShifrin.....this is upsetting, as you've observed my geometry is absolute garbage.....Any text in particular you suggest I should start with? Probably means going down to a simple high school text, cause this is sad........
What metrics have orthogonal charts?
@RyanUnger I think so.
@TedShifrin the only metrics I know are Euclidean space and black holes sadly
04:16
LOL
and kerr is certainly not conformally flat
although Balarka should make sure
I might be wrong actually, I've never checked
Differential geometers coming out of the woodworks to prove me wrong. This is a terrible start of a morning.
@dc3rd Maybe the review part of a standard precalc book?
@BalarkaSen can you give me the proof
LOL, poor Balarka .
04:19
I'll start with that. Thanks.....Going to be weird asking linear algebra questions about diagonalization, but here messing up basic geometry.....I'll be back in a few.
oh I'm dumb
black holes all have nonzero weyl
@TedShifrin How might I approach Calculus by Spivak? I'm looking at the ch 2 problems in the text, and I feel my proofs are a bit rusty at this point.
I didn't finish reading how to think like a mathematician yet, however.
I wonder if that'll likely provide enough background knowledge for the proofs in Spivak's text?
@zacts, finish that first. It will give you the framework of how to think about math questions. I'd suggest "How to read and do proofs" by Daniel Solow as well. Then make a run at Spivak
@dc3rd thanks
04:34
"A quantum Leray-Hirsch theorem for banded gerbes"
04:55
@TedShifrin: One second. Riemann curvature tensor of $S^2 \times \Bbb H^2$ is not traceless, right? I agree it has zero scalar curvature. But not Ricci-flat, is it?
By traceless tensor I meant $\sum_i T_{ijik} = 0$, for all $j, k$. This is what Weyl tensor satisfies.
@BalarkaSen shouldnt be ricci flat
aight, so I read over the row-pivot theorem
because the V vectors span R^n, we can use row pivot theorem to determine that Ax=b has a solution
and that each b in R^n is a linear combination of the columns of a
I'm not sure where to go from here
@Ted @Thorgott @Ryan OK, looked the Yang-DeTurck reference up. See Propostion 4.11.
2
Diagonalizable coordinates is not quite enough. You need diagonalizable coordinates with prescribed frame at any single point.
It would be interesting to find explicit conformal charts on $S^2 \times \Bbb H^2$.
05:32
@BalarkaSen thanks for sharing.
👍🏼
06:05
@TedShifrin I know more things and I'm just as confused lmao
2 messages moved from Basic Mathematics
@TedShifrin: hey there.
@10Replies more things to be confused about.
indeed
so, if you're just as confused, you're ahead!
slightly
these are my poorly written thoughts so far
I'm struggling to see why this is so complicated, can I not just say, because v_1 .. v_p spans R^n and T(v_i) = 0 for all I then T(X) = 0 because x is in R^n
06:10
@10Replies I don't know the Row-Pivot Theorem, but if $\{v_i\}_{i=1}^p$ span $\mathbb{R}^n$, then for any $x\in\mathbb{R}^n$, there are $\{c_i\}_{i=1}^p$ so that $x=\sum\limits_{i=1}^pc_iv_i$.
where does the sum come from?
@10Replies that is what it means to span a vector space.
you can write any element of that vector space as a linear combination of the spanning set
like this?
my brain is too small
06:28
Eh, I just submitted it with my halfassed answer that should get 2/3rds of the points
 
1 hour later…
07:37
have you been inconvenienced by the storm? @RyanUnger
 
2 hours later…
09:09
@BalarkaSen so it isn't a counter-example in the end?
Nope.
It is a very good example though because it shows how it's not at all obvious.
wild
It is proof that I do not understand the result :)
is the product of conformally flat things always conformally flat by this theorem or are there counter-examples that just need to be more complicated (I imagine non-constant curvature)?
Actually maybe I still don't know if $S^2 \times \Bbb H^2$ is a counterexample or not.
Certainly the metric is diagonal, but does it admit "enough diagonal coordinates" in the sense of DeTurck-Yang?
$W_{ijkl} = 0$ only if there are enough diagonal coordinates. I think I missed this subtlety when I worked it out before
Just try to compute the Weyl tensor explicitly.
It's probably nonzero.
Ted has to be right, I mean, it looks like a totally overdetermined system. The point is I think that you cannot expect diagonal coordinates with frame at a point not respecting the product structure at all.
@Thorgott @Ted @Ryan Simply $S^2 \times S^2$ is not conformally flat I think. It has varying sectional curvature (take (geodesic) x (geodesic), these are isometrically embedded flat torii). But it is also clearly an Einstein manifold, those are conformally flat iff they have constant sectional curvature.
Follows from writing down the Weyl tensor.
So yeah, differential geometers are correct and I am wrong. Sorry!
Enough diagonal charts is a strong restriction.
09:51
why does isometrically embedded flat tori lead to varying sectional curvature?
Take a point $p$; then there's a geodesic flat torus passing through it, so the tangent plane $P \subset T_p M$ to that torus has sectional curvature 0 right?
But take the $S^2 \times \{*\}$ factor, which has sectional curvature 1
Or am I wrong?
ah, I buy that
Good. No more harrassment for me.
Guys, would anyone mind having a look at this question?
https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/4010742/sheaf-of-1-forms-on-affine-opens
I had to type out a few results and a commutative diagram, hence felt it was better to write it out on the main
Question boils down to understanding a result (without proof) on restriction maps for a sheaf of 1-forms of an algebraic variety between affine opens
10:51
@Balarka why are characteristic classes fucking witchcraft, man
I thought "let's put an arbitrary connection on this bundle and take the characteristic polynomial of the curvature form" or whatever is incomprehensible, but the algebraists definition is incomprehensible too
11:18
@Thorgott What comprehension are you looking for, btw? It's a (natural) invariant, so to me it makes sense to consider it
Natural not meant categorically here, btw
But I have no intuition or anything
 
2 hours later…
12:50
This question I did with two methods for rank of a word.

The word is COCHIN. Arranging the word = CCIHNO

The method I thought on my own

_ _ _ _ _ _ .. So , at first place we have only choice to keep C .

At second , we have choice to keep C,I,H,N .

At 3rd place , we have choice to keep C,I,H,O .

Similarly filling for other 3 places . We get 4 * 4 factorial = 96.

Then , second time .

For first place , we keep C . For second , one choice of keeping O. At 3rd we keep C . At 4th we keep H . So we get = 1.
Just confirm me whether my method is wrong or right.
This is based on permutations and combinations
Rank of a word
13:17
@Thorgott They're not really. The differential geometric approach is inspired by the case of complex line bundles, where the fact that the result is independent of choice of connection is a result of Hodge theory. But I tend to think that inspires one to study invariant polynomials in curvature and not characteristic classes.
The definition of characteristic classes are just cohomology classes natural under pullback and preserved under direct sum. That's it! They're gadgets to tell whether or not a vector bundle is stably trivial.
From which one concludes, ok, I just need to understand the universal case of cohomology classes on BO. You study the cohomology of that space by whatever techniques and find out it's a polynomial ring, and then you realize you may as well try to understand the generators.
From which you get SW classes which you understand and work with axiomatically.
For some reason people think it's a good idea to try to understand these straight from the definition. But the definition is just a recipe to pull out these generators.
If I were really trying to give a definition I would do it geometrically. w_1(E), E rank n, is the generic locus where n sections become linearly dependent. (Aka where a section of the determinant bundle generically vanishes.)
That literally measures triviality of determinant line bundle, hence obstructs orientability.
w_n(E) = mod 2 Euler class is where a generic section is zero.
And w_j(E) is where (n-j+1) sections generically become linearly dependent.
This is a geometric interpretation of the obstruction theory definition: they are the first things you see stopping you from finding linearly indep sections.
The last four or five messages are almost certainly literally wrong but morally right
 
2 hours later…
15:02
I don't know the classifying spaces viewpoint (perhaps I should), but I think that should amount to saying that each $n$-bundle admits a unique homotopy class of bundle maps into the tautological bundle over the infinite $n$-Grassmannian and that Stiefel-Whitney classes come from pulling back the cohomology of the infinite Grassmannian along this. That approach makes sense to me conceptually. But how do I fit Chern classes into this framework?
Is the power set of $\{a,\{a\},\{\{a\}\}\}$ the set $\{\emptyset, \{a\}, \{\{a\}\}, \{\{\{a\}\}\}, \{a,\{a\}\}, \{a, \{\{a\}\}\}, \{\{a\},\{\{a\}\}\},\{a,\{a\},\{\{a\}\}\}\}$ ?
Also, how do we make the "generic locus" idea precise? I've only heard of stuff like generic points in the context of alggeo (and not that I know them there either).
In general $A\cup P(A)$ has $2^{|A|}$ elements, right?
P the power set
@MaryStar yes
it's $P(A)$ that has $2^{|A|}$ elements
15:40
@Thorgott so if $A=\{a,\{a\},\{\{a\}\}\}$ then the union has 2^3 elements, right?
not necessarily
the powerset has 2^3 elements
@Thorgott and the union of A and the power set? Isn't the union equal to the power set?
no, not necessarily
15:57
@Thorgott Surely you can guess bro. If Stiefel Whitney classes are for real bundles --- which are classified by maps to BO(n) --- then ...
@Thorgott Too much work to make precise in general for you. For w_1 and w_n it's easy, it's transversality.
PD w_1(E) = zero set of a transverse section of the determinant line bundle
PD w_{rk E}(E) = zero set of a transverse section of the bundle
as i said, idk classifying spaces. is it just complex grassmannian or what?
@Thorgott why not? How is it in this case?
Yeah I mean what else would it be
@MaryStar simply notice that $a \notin P(A)$ in your example above
@MaryStar Simply because it isn't true. If you think it is true, you can tell me why you think so and I can tell you why you are mistaken. In this case, it depends on what your $a$ is.
If $a=\emptyset$, it's true, I think it's false for any other $a$, but I haven't checked the details
@BigSocks trivial case disagrees
16:06
Aaa a is not in the powerset therefore ghe union has 2^3+1 elements, right??
@Thorgott right. I should say isn't necessarily in the powerset
for your very specific example, maybe. look at how particular your set is though
@Mike Yeah, I wouldn't have known a priori. The definition of Chern classes I have is as elegant as it is intransparent. If they just come from the complex Grassmannian, that's very clear conceptually (though I guess that means I should try understanding why that's equivalent to my definition).
also tranverse section = transverse to the zero section?
16:20
Yeah
I dunno what definition you have. Probably inductive
Oh some shit with Leray Hirsch
I only have Krecks definition
I don't have who defines things in what way memorized
I remember ideas not expositions
Let $E\rightarrow Y$ be a complex $n$-bundle and form the external tensor product bundle with the tautological line bundle over $\mathbb{CP}^n$ to obtain a bundle over $X\times\mathbb{CP}^n$, whose Euler class is an element of $H^{2n}(X\times\mathbb{CP}^n)$.
Via Künneth this is isomorphic to $\bigoplus_{j=1}^nH^{2j}(X)$ (where we identify the cohomologies of $\mathbb{CP}^n$ with $\mathbb{Z}$ canonically via the generator that is the appropriate power of the Euler class of the tautological line bundle) and the component of that Euler class in $H^{2j}(X)$ is the $j$-th Chern class.
uh, $Y$ was meant to be $X$ ofc
16:54
Awful
It's the Leray Hirsch thing but rephrased
The way one might say this is that if you take a bundle E and projectivize to P(E), Leray Hirsch gives you that its cohomology is a free module over H^*(M), isomorphic to H^*(M) o H^*(P(E_x)) for some fiber E_x. But this isomorphism doesn't preserve the ring structure. The c_i show up in the formula for the ring structure.
Anyway these are all games
Nobody reasons with these definitions

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